No Room For Heroes

[johnny99]

I grew up believing in a land fit for heroes but this story really
beggars belief. I've recently retired from the RAF and I'm pleased to say that this sort of crap never really penetrated far enough to affect the business end of the job. The spineless wonders that make this sort of judgement call make oxygen thieves look respectable. I hope and pray that this sort of nonsense is never tolerated in the services else we may as well pack up and go home. To Paul Waugh, I hope there are more of your ilk out there and that you’re on duty if ever I or my nearest and dearest need to meet you; and may you all be on your annual Health and Safety training when the muppets call!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=507651&in_page_id=1770

[Chugalug2]

As you say j99 God forbid this craven attitude reaches the forces. As it is this is the logical culmination of decades of cool Britannia: emergency services that are told to stay safe, schools that don't teach, hospitals that are dangerous to enter, railways that can't be fixed, nogo areas in inner cities, welcome to our world! Posted my twopenneth there, hope others do likewise.

[niknak]

So, in undertaking "your selfless act of herioc bravery" would you risk the lives of others who would then have to come to rescue you?

In the instance of the coastguard chap, he did what he thought was right at the time and it worked out OK, but he paid no heed to the fact that he could easily have compromised the safety of all involved and caused unnecessary casualties.
The Coastguard,lifeboat and other rescue services work to strict protocols which they extensively train for, there's no room for gung ho heroes who can't follow basic tried and tested procedures and put their colleagues at risk.

Put the same scenario into a military situation and it's no different.

This bloke was an idiot, albeit a brave idiot, but he couldn't follow his training.
Also remember, it was he who resigned before he knew the full outcome of even the preliminary investigation, no one forced him out.

[Brian Abraham]

A girl's life was in imminent danger and I did what I had to to save her life. Saving that girl was all that mattered, the cliff edge was crumbling and it was a 300 foot drop down.

I would give credit to the guy for making a judgement call and getting in and doing what he thought needed doing. Don't think for one minute that he thought to himself "I can get a medal out of this and be made a hero".

niknak quote
Also remember, it was he who resigned before he knew the full outcome of even the preliminary investigation, no one forced him out.

Mr Waugh's view
Mr Waugh said he has been put under "immense pressure" from management and treated terribly. Now, a year after risking his own life to save the teenager, the 44-year-old has announced that he has been forced to quit the job

Management loves to play its own games at times. A DC-4 shed a prop blade on take off which tore the engine from its mounts and was left sitting in the bottom of the nacelle. Management ordered the Captain to brink it back and land. Captain was concerned that the touch down might be all it would take to drop the engine on the runway and take out the main gear leg, with an ensueing less than disirable outcome. So he took it over the water and after many attempts of pulling "g" managed to get the engine to fall free and then made a safe landing. The guy was hounded to death quite literally by management for failing to follow "orders". It's a moot point whether the heart attack he had later had anything to do with the treatment he received.

With the way things are going the troops will need a clearance from EH&S before "going over the top".

Kudos to Mr Waugh. :ok:

[The Swinging Monkey]

niknak

Your comments are unfair and harsh frankly, calling this chap an idiot. By what right or position can you call him an idiot? As I understand it, this idiot saved another persons life, something the armed forces and our emergency services do most days. Apart from that, the only person's life he risked was his own. Shame on you niknak.

As someone with several years experience as a winchman, I can tell you that myself (and probably most of my colleagues), have done many 'idiotic' things in our carreers by your judgement, and I'm quite proud of it actually, thank you! We make a judgement at the time, and whilst we consider every aspect of a rescue, we do not sit there in our little yellow egg whisk and think "hmm, I wonder if this is going to contravene current H & S rules"

There are hundreds of people alive and kicking today, who wouldn't be if it wasn't for us 'idiots' who have made that judgement based on our skills, and our ability, not those of some 'H & S Guru' who has no experience of these matters at all.

I wonder if you would feel the same if it had been your son or daughter he had rescued eh?? Maybe you would think different then perhaps.

So, well done to Mr Waugh, he should have been given a medal instead of all the grief he has clearly received.

TSM

[JEM60]

Well said, Swinging Monkey, and my total admiration to Mr. Waugh, you, and all your colleagues.

[Green Flash]

Mr Waugh made a fast call based on the situation and his experience. It was a risk but it paid off and a young girl has her life, and Paul Waugh has (I hope) a good feeling. Yes, it was a risk - so is walking down the street. I wonder what his (ex)management sees when they look in the mirror? And I bet Faye Harrison's family have an opinion too. Paul Waugh - Top Bloke:ok: Maybe the M&CGA need to look at the resources avbl to the cliff rescue teams?:hmm:

[Faithless]

I dont think anybody has the right to slate the chap unless they were there. All those that have...Take a step back and think what would you do....How would you live with yourself if she fell and you were watching?

Just like this story http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=7227717 If you were there would you sit on your arse and wait for assistance and do sweet fcuk all? I doubt it. I bet he had every man and his dog trying to save him and rightly so.

People that follow the anal rules and regulations 24/7 and do not bend them in time of danger need to get out more.

Lets have a look at all the other decorated hero's we have and see if they all followed the rule book word for word in the face of danger!!! Think not some how.

Give this guy a break...he saved a childs life and lives to tell the tale, nothing can be more rewarding that that.

Well done Paul you get my vote :D:D:D:D

[Woff1965]

I'm a civvie (and always have been). However, I would like to think that in the circumstances I would have done the same thing as this guy.

If the the situation was not that pressing and he had time to do things by the book, he would deserve to get crucified, but this was an EMERGENCY and at such times I think it is reasonable to take calculated risks to save another persons life.

Had he followed the book, and she had died as a result I suspect he would not have been able to live with the consequences as at the back of his mind he would always wonder if he could have saved her.

Well done and its a shame that more people aren't prepared to do the right thing..

[Door Slider]

Remember the young child who drowned last year after getting trapped in rising water. There were 2 PCSO at the scene but did not have the correct 'training' to intervein.

There was huge public outcry that they did not throw caution to the wind and make an effort to save this persons life. It was also said if the they were not PCSO but 'real' police officers then at least they would have made an effort.


Just shows your damned if you do damned if you dont.

I know which course if action I would have taken!!!!!

[MostlyModerate]

In 1838, another Geordie, Grace Darling, put the rescue of others before her own safety. Like her, Paul Waugh saw what had to be done, and did it.
In so doing, he put no one at risk but himself, secured the terrified girl and held her safe until the helicopter arrived. Isn't that what coastguards are supposed to do ?

I smell yet another once-proud government body emasculated by the litigation and compensation culture.

I wonder if the Freedom of Information Act will allow me to find out the name of the soulless moron who penned the MCA statement ? I would like to visit him.

[tacpot]

If I'd been the guy's boss, I would have took him to one side and said "Look, I'm gonna' have to haul you over the coals for this, AND it'll go on your disciplinaray record, but that's just Health & Safety bo**ocks; bloody good job, well done. Oh, and keep your head down and don't talk to the press!"

Now it's in the public domain, the MCA can't appear to condone its staff taking risks. But in a life-threatening situation, I think the Health & Safety culture needs to come to accept that we have free will, and some of us would rather die trying than stand back and watch as someone dies wehn we could of helped.

Well done that man. :D

[JEM60]

Sorry. Door Slider, but I am afraid you're facts are wrong. The child was NOT trapped in rising water. He had fallen into a deep and very opaque lake. By the time the 2 PCSO's had arrived, there was NO sign of him at all, or any way of telling where abouts in the lake he was. No bubbles to follow, just a lake with NO sign of life in it, and no knowing where he fell in. VERY difficult to call on this one. Need the facts to be able to criticise their actions, or lack of them.The press made too much of it without looking at it from their point of view.

[goudie]

Surely when trying to save a life the rules are 'there are no rules'. The man on the spot knows the risks, makes the call for better or worse. In this case he succeeded so what the hell's wrong with that. Diamond geezer.

[Riskman]

I agree with SwingingMonkey entirely.

It is extensive training and experience that enables a person to judge when to do apparently 'idiotic' things.

The rules force a person to make a considered judgement which can only legitimately be gainsaid by an equally competent person on the spot, not by airmchair experts after the event.

[Door Slider]

JEM60

I stand corrected, however the sentiment of what I was trying to convey still stands

[JessTheDog]

The man is a hero and his bosses are idiots.

Thank God we have the likes of Mr Waugh and others (including the George and Victoria Crosses in Iraq and Afghanistan more recently) who respond in such heroic ways in the face of imminent danger to human lives.

We used to celebrate such virtues in civilian life as well as the military....typical of the national culture where gongs go to incompetent civil servants (and unashamed professional liars like the PM's ex spokesman), royal flunkies, celebrities and a token few minions, with the emergency services who acted so bravely during the Underground bombings get nothing.

[Brewster Buffalo]

You can draw a parallel with this case and another drowning last year where two community support officers were criticised for not entering the water to search for a missing person.

From their superior's point of view they were not trained in rescue techniques and took the correct action but they were roundly condemned in the press.

You have a dilemma here: you, of course, want to rescue someone but you don't want, in the course of that rescue attempt, someone else to die.

[Winco]

I am constantly amazed at how certain elements in our society treat our heroes in this country. They ought to be ashamed.

Here we have a chap, who made an 'on the spot' decision to have a go and save a young girls life. What an outstanding thing to do. He made a judgement and decision that he could save this girls life and it paid off, and for anyone to call him an idiot beggars belief in my opinion. As TSM says, I wonder how they would have felt if it had been their child??

Well done Mr Waugh, I'm sure you are extremely proud of what you did, and rightly so! Take no notice at all of the likes of this niknak person on this thread, there is only one idiot around here and it's him!

Regards
The Winco

[old,not bold]

The point that might be missed, to put it into Elf'n Safety-speak, is that Mr Waugh made his own, informed, expert risk assessment on the spot, including the risks attached to not taking immediate action, ie the probable death of the girl.

He was very well qualified to do that, and he got it right.

What the risk-averse, face-less fools who make these "Rules" cannot understand is that they have no right or ability to remove that function from the person on the spot.

Niknak's post is a perfect example of sort of the nonsense that led Mr Waugh to resign, and the 2 CSO's to stand idly by, worrying about being disciplined.

It defies all logic and commonsense to argue that some Civil Servant is able to decide in advance of any situation what the "right" course of action might be, and dictate from that position what someone is allowed to do or not allowed to do, in a life-threatening emergency situation.

Particularly when the people who make up these "Rules", have never attempted anything more risky than pouring water from a kettle, have a life's background of safe, mundane office work, and would no more risk their lives to save someone else's than they would give up their pensions. They are Civil Servants, after all, only because they are unemployable where initiative, courage and determination are needed.

The Rule can only be, "Decide what needs to be done having taken all the factors you are aware of into account, using your expertise, and do it. It is your decision to risk your life to save another, and you will be supported 100% in whatever decision you take".

[JEM60]

Old, but not Bold. The two PCSO's did NOT STAND IDLY BY worrying about discilpinary action. READ MY PREVIOUS POST. It is extremely easy to sit in an armchair and be critical of others without, perhaps, being in that position. Many years ago, when in the proper Police Force, I attended an accident at night where four people were trapped in a VERY wrecked car. First on the scene, my mate and I spent half a minute assessing it and then moved in. As we did so, the car exploded. Everyone died, but I suspect that they already had. I was VERY pleased we hesitated, otherwise it would have killed us too. These two PCSOs' had to make an assessment. People who have already drowned, as I am sure this child had, sink to to bottom. They do not float, or give off air bubbles. It was most noticeable at the time, in the press, that nobody asked what adults or parents were doing in order to supervise this child to prevent the tragedy happening. Somehow, these days, I always get the impression that when things go wrong, it's ALWAYS someone else's fault. By the way, could thee PCSOs swim?????

[Winco]

Perhaps to conclude this thread and finally humiliate niknak into responding, I could ask him to look at the 'RN SK Crew awarded 2008 Breitling Award' thread on this forum. Perhaps he would care to comment on these 'idiots' also!!??

Well done to the dark blue for an outstanding rescue. A very well deserved award chaps.

The Winco

[old,not bold]

Jemco

I'll concede the point about the 2 PSO's, although there were some other "well-informed" accounts which said that it wasn't quite like that, because it's peripheral to my argument, which is that the people on the spot must be allowed to make their own risk assessment, their own decision, and must be supported in doing that. They should NOT be required to abide by some Rule laid down without reference to any particular circumstances.

In your case, with the car, you did exactly that, I think. You were saved, if I understand it right, not because you decided not to move in, but because you took a moment or two before deciding to do just that.

Either way, it was your decision and you took it. Good for you, and I'm glad you're still around to tell the tale.

[Moose Loadie]

I wonder how many H & S rules will prevent people from being rescued when SAR(H) is implemented. Maybe this is an insight into the limits which will be imposed by the MCA.

[Spartacan]

I live in the Isle of Man. It's a sane sort of place, rather un PC and sensible about Health and Safety. Last year a coastgaurd climbed a steep cliff without safety support to rescue a child who had climbed up and got stranded. The coastgaurd received merits for his pluck and disregard for his own safety. Recently they advertised for volunteer coastgaurds and this rescue was given as an example of how you might have to risk your neck to get the job done.

Have a read and it will cheer you up!

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/north-news/Coastguards-praised-for-cliff-rescue.3571723.jp

[aspinwing]

Methinks

Heart & Soul

is now

Health and Safety :*

[biggles111]

I have to wonder what would have happened if it had just been an ordinary Joe off the street, who rescued the Girl. Would he have been slated for not considering the Health & Safety Issues?

[chappie]

in all honesty i would have done the same as mr waugh.

well done for saving a life that's where it should begin and end!

none of this health and safety b******s :mad:, i know it's there for a reason but in all honesty when faced with an emergency when you work in an environment where you are put into positions where the time comes to save a life i can tell you all that your one and only focus is what can i do to save that person. it's almost like an automated response. i work in itu and have attended some pretty bad smashes on the way to work. i can totally understand where this man is coming from.

the health and safety rules states that you assess the area firstly to do a risk assessment. that is what he did, he looked weighed up the risk versus the outcome and did what he thought he could. so in fact he followed the rules!

the managemnt should be ashamed of themselves. it is a travesty that services involved in helping those in need from the humble gp practice to the large regional hospital are being run like businesses by people who have no medical backgrounds. one famous hospital i worked at was run by an ex chief exec from the freezer shop iceland ( no accompanying kerry katona, thank god!) and my local gp practice manager has a background in engineering! sometimes, just sometimes the rules that worked in previous settings just don't translate in certain situations. the management that made this mans life hell should have had faith in him and look at his history not look at the HSE poster stuck in the corner of the room!

there rant over and done with, crack on!