Shenzhen Airlines

[jimboflyguy]

Hi All,
I am new to this forum and I am interested in finding any info on Shenzhen Airlines. They are recruiting for B-737-800 Captains and I am one. Understand that there are a small number of expats there now but they are recruiting for growth. Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks

[boeingbusbenn]

I'd like to correspond with anyone who is working for Shenzhen Airlines. Please send me a PM.

Thanks!

[FLEXPWR]

Rising my hand as well... anyone around? Sure they have a few expats over in Shenzhen...

Thx

[cpt.parrot]

Sounds like we should make a thread out of it. I'm looking at a A320 position at Shenzhen as well. I'm curious about the working conditions, living in China, etc. Anybody out there with any info?

[clrblu22]

What do you want to know.......

[clrblu22]

It is true that Shenzhen is looking for pilots (320 and 737 captains)...the recruiter is wasinc. If you are an f/o, hang out because they are looking at taking guys with Types and doing some kind of a quick upgrade program.

[EPASZ]

Working in China is the last thing u want to think if you are use to the Western life style.

I hate living at this place hmmm

[hjmemon]

Hi there,
Any chance for non typed guys willing to pay for the type.
thanks
HJM

[320busdriver]

Thanks for the info 22 :ok: Is there anyone in paticular to contact at wasinc. Would anyone flying for them care to share roster and day to day living in shenzshen with us thanks.

[Fareastdriver]

EPASZ must have a chip on his shoulder. His standard of English suggests that he is not fully au faire with the western style of life.
Should you equate the western style of life with Shekou, where most of the expatriate pilots live then it is all there. A three-bedroomed modern air-conditioned apartment will cost about US$1,000/month plus light and water. Cable TV and ADSL are simplicity to arrange.
International stores? Take your choice. Wal Mart, Carrefoure and B&Q are within a $2 taxi ride, as are ultra modern shopping malls. The local Chinese shops sell just about everything at ridiculous prices compared with the West. Close by are Chinese supermarkets where an incredible range of fruit and vegetables cost peanuts and if you are a seafood addict then you are in Paradise.
Hanker after home cooking. Two delicatessens specialise in European and American products so you are never short of your favourite cereal or sauces. A real butchers shop supplies real steaks and real sausages and bacon, none of this American streaky stuff.
Too lazy to cook at home. There is always MacDonald’s, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Pizza House, Papa Johns, Starbucks plus a host of international restaurants including the best Teppiyake restaurant outside of Japan. You can have few beers at a local bar and shoot pool and darts or go to an Irish bar and sink Guinness.
Want to keep your swing in? A driving range virtually on your doorstep and fifteen golf courses, one floodlit and four of Championship standard, within twenty miles.
Two international schools educate the kids and when they go outside with their rollerblades and skateboards you know that they will be SAFE, as you will be any time of the day or night.
It is not quite the same as western life. You’re not likely to get mugged, murdered or your kids abducted or molested. They shoot people that do that.

This is a part of Seaworld, the recreation centre of Shekou.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/Picture054.jpg

[JotaJota]

Any info on the Airline itself? Quality of Operations, procedures, schedules, etc...

Thinking on leaving my sinking ship of crappy Airwayz.

Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[JotaJota]

Same here... Looking for all the info Avail on Shenzhen Airlines, etc...

Thanks in advance.

[Xpatpilot]

Good operations standards . Receiving brand new acfts (800's) at a rate of one per month (heard it may slow down a little bit) .

Airports with good , long , both sides ILS equiped runways . Good maintenance .

Schedule is planned for a maximum of 4 or 5 days ahead and changes a lot , must check it on the internet almost on a daily basis . But it's easy to request days off and plan your personal life . Generally speaking ,we work for 4 days in a row and have 2 or 3 days off . Typical day you leave in the early morning , fly four legs and get back home between 2100/2330hs .

Salary is for 90 hours block time and we usually fly what we are paid for .Minimum 8 days off and we usually get something between 9 and 12 , with layovers average between 6 and 9 .


Company provides pilot transport . A small bus pick you up at home and deliver you back upon arrival ( 40 min. ride ).

The Foreign Dept. counts with almost 50 pilots already flying and maybe around 30 or 40 more waiting for some paperwork to be ready . Paperwork runs slow , sometimes very slow here . Some guys waiting for more than 6 months to have all CAAC related documents, working visas and so on to be ready . I think salary is paid in full during this period . MUST pass a CAAC ATPL written test which is not difficult at all , but some language/ translation issues and local regulation questions may give you a hard time . Lot of studying material available ( basically previous test questions and GLEIM software). Can repeat the test after 28 days if you fail the first time , in this case maybe the salary will be reduced , gotta check this in your contract .

That's all for now , hope it helps your decision .

[stator vane]

"start early morning" and finish 2130-2330 hours!"

wow---or "ouch" rather!

and then the 40 minute ride---

[Xpatpilot]

Bus ride included in the "ouch" duty time...hehe.

[Fair.Pilot]

Any recruitment now? Heard after 3 years can jump to Jade Cargo to fly the 744?

[clrblu22]

I agree with the previous posts. China is not a bad place to be if you must be away from home. This place, like anywhere else, takes some time to get use to.

If you are planning on taking a family to China there are some things to consider:

We are in a 4 bedroom apartment and pay $2000.00/month (not including utilities). There are places that are cheaper though and there is room for negotiation on the price; just depends on what you can put up with for the next 2-3 years. My apartment is furnished and is higher with a view. Lower apartments are cheaper ($1200/mo).

Shenzhen's housing allowance is only 8000RMB. Jade Cargo pilots get 15,000 RMB?? The average cost of an apartment here is about $2000/mo. for something that you'd like to live in for the next 3 years. Hopefully they will change that soon.

Private international mediacal insurance is EXPENSIVE!!! The airlines do not pay for this (they should). There is a clinic here called SOS (in Shekou) that has US, Braz. and other international Doctors. The cost is about $4500.00+/year for your family and ONLY covers you on the mainland at the SOS clininc (nothing international)...if you wind up breaking your arm and going to the Hospital (SOS clinic is not a hospital), you will pick up the tab. Now saying this, I would never take my family to the Chinese hospitals on the mainland (other than the one in Beijing) unless it was an absolute emergency. Even then, you'd probably be transferred to the hospital in Hong Kong if it was serious. If you dont have international insurance....you pick up the tab on that as well.

I think that I should also mention that the hospitals here are 30 years behind the USA in everything they do. They are moldy, crowded and if you do not have someone that speaks Chinese with you when you go, good luck!

It's an absolute necessity, if your family is here, to have proper medical coverage and the peace of mind that comes with a good plan. Having additional coverage in the USA is more expensive. I've tried to paste a chart here but for some reason it will not let me. The average cost (not including medical coverage in N-America, family of 4-5) is about $10,000US/year.


Daycare for your children is a problem because it is expensive so you must hire a nanny or take your children to the international schools here if you and your wife plan on spending any time together, alone. Additionally, Shenzhen Airlines does NOT pay for any schools.

$4500/year for SOS Clinic
$10,000/year for International Insurance (on average for a family of 4-6..no USA Coverage)
$12,000/year per child at the QSI (international school) SIS is double that!

If you have 3 children in school, thats $36,000 out of your own pocket at QSI!!!

36,000 (3 kids going to school)
10,000
+ 4,500
_______
$50,000 (take that out of your salary)

Now that I've said that...sure beats flipping burgers.

[clrblu22]

320 and Jota,

It's my pleasure to share info with you. You can call
World Aviation Systems, Inc.

P.O. Box 370124Las Vegas, Nevada 89137-0124
Tel +1.702.315.3232 Fax +1.702.920.8416

They are very nice and will spend the time to answer all your questions.

[clrblu22]

Sorry,

Loosing track of all my threads.

If you do not have time on type...I believe that they will look at your other PIC experience. Keep in mind that they (Shenzhen Airlines) does not have a SIC to PIC program, yet.

[clrblu22]

Sorry,

It stands for World Aviation Systems Inc. and the Web site is:

http://www.wasinc.net/index.aspx (http://www.wasinc.net/index.aspx)

[JotaJota]

Clrblu22, thanks... I have been in touch with BT there for a few weeks now.

So are you working for Shenzhen Airlines now? Like it? Ops, trip length/rotations, FO's sharp or Ab-Initio? Attitude? Got any more info? Anything!

Thanks a lot...

[env1]

www.wasinc.aero (http://www.wasinc.aero)

[Juniorslm]

well im not sure how much information you have about the contracts. what contract company are you going through? well as of OCT 1 i was t go for testing mid october. Now it is OCT 19 and they are saying it will be maybe mid november. I dont blame the contract company i beleive it is the China government that has all the testing backed up. The government closes for about anything and everything over there. I do believe this will be a good contract if and when it does happen. I have alot of information as far as documents, about the area the job school ect. anyone interested hit me up with an e-mail

good luck

[clrblu22]

My health care premiums are about $600/month...through WASINC...not bad. If you and your family are living in China, you are covered when you return home for visits.

Im sorry that so many of you have emailed me privately and I have not answered....I'm just now starting to get to them.

I now have my CAAC license and am in the process of OE.....I'll try and post something that is useful for everyone as soon as I ca find the time.

[clrblu22]

I am just now getting my OE. So far all it takes is patients to work here. This is not American aviation and it's very different than what you would expect (at least in the training department). Shenzhen has treated us well as well as WASINC. One must keep in mind that WASINC can only do so much.....the Chinese airlines run the show; any "head-hunter" service can only support you as much as the airline will allow. Now dont quote me on than...some contract providers are better than others.

Most of the guys that I've spoken with fly 100 hours/month. One overnight/week. When you are working...you WORK early and get home late.

I have not had any pay problems yet.......I transfer all my cash back to the states to pay for my mortgage and rotting new car; it just sits there.

Crew scheduling...from what I've heard, tries thier best to accomidate you when you call them for a favor.....

[purple head]

you sure about 100 hours per month? we're limited to 270 hours in any 3 months with a max of 100 hours per month in China

[clrblu22]

You are correct......some months will be 100 and others will be less to meet the regulation. Sorry about the confusion.

[Juniorslm]

There are other options for woking here inchina with shenzhen ailrines that to me are a much better option. feel free to contact me and i will tell you about my treatment and experience with WASINC.

[akolom777]

Hi, all!
Any information about climate in the area of Shenzhen. Thay say that humidity is extremaly high...

[JotaJota]

Was just there 2 days ago and it was gorgeous. Low 70's and very little humidity. Now in a few months it's going to be "hell" if you don't like or are used to high humidity.

[akolom777]

Thank you, JotaJota!

[iseul]

check out this link for Shenzhen weather. All you could want to know.
China Shenzhen Climate, Weather, Rainfall, Best Season (http://www.travelchinaguide.com/climate/shenzhen.htm)

[Kato747]

try World Aviation Systems Inc (http://www.wasinc.aero)

[ScottyDawg]

Many thanks Kato747 - for posting the web link

I'm actually being headhunted through a UK organisation at present.

- and was hoping for more of a flavour of the current Shenzhen Airlines expatriot community - who have gone through the assessment/training regime etc... plus can supply a bit of information regarding their personal experiences and observation regarding lifestyle..etc...perticularly on the B737NG Fleet

If anyone out there can assist me in making (hopefully the right) - decision, I would be most grateful for your help in that regard.

Please feel free to send an anonymous personal message... and again thanks for all help and assistance

[CM6966]

Hi guys I am wondering if there'll be opportunity for a FAA CPL, IR and multi but willing to pay for type? thanks

[King Air]

6966,

Besides paying for the type-rating, you also need to pay for your conversion check-ride on PA44 and the high performance training on CJ1 as well.:ok::ok::ok:

[STATLER]

Can anyone advise me if Schenzhen are still looking for captains on the NG?

Many thanks

[clrblu22]

Yes, Shenzhen is always looking.....they have deliveries of 737's and A320's (6)this year. I think that this year they are looking to hire 40 A320 Captains and...I dont how many 737 Captains.

Next year will be big growth in this airline and they will need to ramp up hiring this, and next year.

[JotaJota]

Yes... Just hired two friends of mine for the NG. But I will not wait long because things are slowing down some over here in CN. My airline is also receiving 8 new AB's this year but the hiring has slowed down some...

So get busy and start the app process as it take 3-6 months to get all your ducks in a row!

[CM6966]

King Air: how do they do that? Will they pay during training? Is it going to deduct from the salary or most likely you'll have to pay first?
Thanks for your information

[Juniorslm]

dont believe a word that that tell you, it will all change when you get there.. they say you will get pay for your air-fare it might happen 2-3 weeks later. I promise you wont get it when you go for you interview.

If you would like to know more about WASINC, email me at [email protected]

[jefkaw320]

I'm brand new to this board, but glad to see it has its requisite share of anonymous flame throwers. I am specifically referring to those who have bashed WASINC in this thread.

I recently went through screeing with Shenzhen (WASINC) and I, and the other candidates, all felt WASINC did a fine job putting everything together. Anyone who had a problem with the screening actually became a victim of some portion of the screening (ATPL written, medical), none of which can be blamed on the recruiter.

As to the specific complaint of one about expense reimbursement, all of us received our reimbursement at the end of the week. No problems.

If you're looking into flying in Shenzhen, look at all options...including WASINC.

[Ipitch4U]

I have to agree with Juniorslm!

While Wasinc does a good job of saying the right things that need to be said in recruiting pilots, it lacks the power to do anything with these Chinese company's.

Find a Kunpeng pilot, and ask him or her, what they think of Wasinc!

You will hear a very sad story about horrible schedules, pilots paying for travel for the company saying they will be reimbursed, flying on tourist visa's, and multiple pay problems... and last but not least the contract you sign will not be worth the paper its written on. This may not be Wasinc fault, but the contract you sign is with them not Shenzhen Airlines...

Call me bitter!... :}

[Gayviators]

Hi all...
Looking for some recruitment contact details for Shenzhen Air, I am non type-rated, 1400 hr frozen ATPL looking for an FO gig. I know its slow at the moment, but also know that this airline has some big plans which will hopefully be requiring a ramp up in hiring over the next 12 months. (Or maybe i'm completely wrong). Am in Singapore at the moment and can hop up to China, should it make my ground work a little easier. PMs welcomed!
Thanks for your help :)

[JotaJota]

Hi Gay... No pun intended :eek:

As far as I know the only FO jobs in CN might be on RJ's if any. And being non-typed you might want to look somewhere else.

And please if someone has diff info, share with us as I have a few buddies on the same status. Meanwhile my company keeps on hiring Captains like there's no tomorrow! We are paid exactly a per the contract and treated 100 times better that any Major US Airline I worked in the past...

Use Direct Personnel or Rishworth!!! Good luck...

[sudanman]

Hi Guys!
I'm going to interview in shenzhen airlines.Could anyone tell me about screening and dresscod.Thank's a lot

[clrblu22]

I currently am flying for them. Here is my take:

Screening takes about 2 weeks (or so, maybe less).

Medical exam:

EKG while running (actually its not running, it's walking fast.) on a treadmill. You will be sweating at the end of this test even if you are in decent shape. They are stressing your heart. You'll run in pants (what ever you have on) and socks...no shoes. As time goes by the treadmill inclines.
Blood work (check kidney functions and for cholesterol..please no comments on my poor spelling)
Brain scann...I'm not kidding!
Check reflexes and bone structure (squats and look at you in your underwear, check hands).
Eyes (if you wear contacts or glasses...no problem just make sure you bring them..bringing a prescription will only confuse the doctors)
Hearing test
Ultrasound your kidneys and look for gallstones (this is the one that seems to be tricky....if you have them, you fail and need to get them removed...if you have small ones or just a slight chance of having them later....you'll need to remove them).Just my opinion; If your a drinker and a smoker...overweight or not in the best of health, do something to get yourself in better shape. Stop smiking and drinking for a time, start running or walking.

The Chinese, smoke, drink and dont eat healthy; you on the other hand are going to be put through a screening that is like nothing you've ever seen before....why give them any reasons to fail your medical. They will flagg anything and most of the time, it's for no good reason.

CAAC ATP EXAM

Study. There will be 10-20 questions that dont make ANY sense and will be in half Chineese and half in the worst english you've ever seen. I had to quess at them.
Study the USA ATP Written...It has 100 questions from that.
You'll take your Test in Guangzhou. There will be a company van that picks you up and returns you to the beautiful Sunway hotel (hope you like a hard..hard bed; did I mention that the beds were hard?).
If you fail...you can retake the test but you will pay for it yourself..I forget how much it costs but it's not expensive; something like $8.00 US (dont hold me to that). Small price to pay for a job!SIM EVAL:


This will be like a PC but can be with multiple failures. The chinese like them and will be looking at your CRM skills as well as your ability to fly and diagnose. This is not easy ! be prepared ! if you have no glass cockpit time, you can purchase some when you get here. The cost is what you'd pay in the USA.

Your F/O will be another Captain canidate in your group. If your company does anthing other than Boeing or Airbus procedures then you'll have fun...just use good CRM with eachother. Thats the one thing that foreign pilots do well on here. They dont expect you to know Shenzhen Airlines procedures.
2 hours or so per person.
They dont like hard landings in the sim (landing hard on line can mean a fine...read below on fines).
When you have an engine fire or failure, dont go strait out for miles. Ask for a turn ASAP and start heading in the right direction.
I had an engine fire. I was relaxed and handled the problem but the instuctor didnt understand why I didnt make a 180 and land. The fire went out so I didnt bother....still, the next time, I'll do a 180 and land even if it is out.
Get ready for crappy vectors: you be on a 90deg headingto the LOC and they will say "call established on the LOC". In the USA that translates to "you are cleared for the approach, turn to what ever heading you like and fly it". Flying the line is like that too.


They expect you to be lightning fast with everything..dont let them rush you. To them the faster you are the better a pilot you are; we know better than that. But, dont be too slow.
If you do something contrary to the QRH, have a good reason.
I can almost guarantee that you will have a fuel leak.
Hyd and slat and flap failures.
You will always be landing in a crosswind!


Dont fly fast...you'll learn that on line as well.
There is no interview. Just being here for the medical means that you fit the mold for working here. This doesnt mean however that you will be sucessful at living and working here...it is very different and takes patients and a disposition to keeping your mouth shut...even when you know you are right.

Here is an example: you dont like something (with good reason), and you voice your opinion (without them asking you for it). On your next PC you fail ! You ask yourself (and the instructor) what the Fuc* did I fail for? The next day you are looking for a new job. (for this to happen you have to be a serious jerk or have a huge mouth. It's not the norm but it does happen).

The Chinese think that they are the best pilots in the world. No advice you have will be good enough for them....so, just fly, go home, fly, go home...collect a paycheck. Get my point?

FYI, this airline also fines you $$$ for when you do something wrong. Anything that is not SOP and you get caught ie. QAR tells on you or you screw something up, you will get into trouble. The cost depends on the infraction. They have a menu of infractions and cost that your recruiter can show you...if they have them. (this kind of punishment is not good but so far, there is nothing that we can do about it).

Having a job is the objective (at least for me). The culture is different and so is the way the Airline does business. If your a proud pilot and think your too good to be a "contract pilot" then stay home. All of us here have had, to some degree, learn that this is not the West. This place is humbling and you'll soon realize that your not at home anymore. ie. If your one of those pilots that has a big stick up your..you know what...pull it out and leave it at home. This is Asia and they do things differently !

This country is 30 years behind the USA in aviation theory and practice. That goes from the ATC system right down to CRM and the way you are treated!

Lastly I like to add something about WASINC and other head hunters. There are many posts that say good thing and bad things. I even have some of my own opinions but, remember what they (headhunters) are here for. They connect you with a job and get $$ each month that you stay.
The contract that you agree to is black and white..read it! After that, you'll still run into issues when you get over here; that is a fact. SO, realize who pays the bills for WASINC (and others). They can not manipulate your contract after you realize that something is screwed up. ...and there will be things that are screwed up.

Shenzhen Airlines runs the show and tells them what they will agree to on your contract.

Thats all I can think of right now..and my hand hurts. I hope this helps, good luck.

PS..this is based on my opinions and observations. I am not interested in any debates. Take this info or leave it... I dont care. Anyway, I do hope that it helps and that everyone can find jobs.

[2Wright]

clrblu22

I've been flying in China for a year now and your take is
Excellent...absolutely spot on...well done. :ok::ok::ok:

[EPASZ]

Spot on....couldnt agree more...:ugh::D

[in FACT is]

The Chinese think that they are the best pilots in the world. so they are in Middle East

and I agree with you clrblu22 all you post is true:ok:

[clrblu22]

Thanks for the good comments. I tried to keep it short and sweet; the subject of flying here could take up pages.

Hope this helps some of you out on your interviews......

[FlyingOW]

clrblu22,

Hi, I have a few quick questions for you since you seem to be the man in the know.

Are the 8000RMB you mention included in the $11,750 USD per month quoted in WASInc web page?

Are the 11,750 assuming you fly 90 hours each month? If so what is the basic pay, say when you are on leave abroad?

It also mentions discounts at Intl school for pilot...how much? %-wise?

Potential savings per month for a DEC on the A320 fleet, with a wife and a soon to be 2 year old with no debts in home country?

Many thanks,

OW

[clrblu22]

It's not that I am in the Know.....This is a serious move for anyone comming here; especially with a family. I just know how important information is...I had the time, so I put some out there. Believe me, I'm not special :O

Anyway, here is the response to your questions.



Are the 8000RMB you mention included in the $11,750 USD per month quoted in WASInc web page? Yes

Are the 11,750 assuming you fly 90 hours each month? If so what is the basic pay, say when you are on leave abroad? No, you will recieve the same paycheck every month regardless of how many hours you fly....unless you get fined of course (rare but does happen to some).

It also mentions discounts at Intl school for pilot...how much? %-wise? The discounts at the international school (not schools) is at QSI...it in an "UNOFFICIAL" 20% off which will still run you about $12,000/year/Child. This is a serious amount of money especially if you have more than one child.

Potential savings per month for a DEC on the A320 fleet, with a wife and a soon to be 2 year old with no debts in home country? I dont understand your question. Your paycheck is minus all taxes....so your take is NET.

Hope this helps...I'll be off line for then next couple of weeks....talk to everyone then.

[FlyingOW]

That was quick! Thanks for the information, very useful indeed.

What I meant was:

What can a Direct Entry Captain (married with a 2 year old), expect to save after rent, utilities, food, entertainment, transport, education, etc, etc.?

Basically trying to figure out Cost of living in Shenzhen and therefore potential savings....Thanks again!

Best regards,

OW

[clrblu22]

That was quick! Thanks for the information, very useful indeed.

What I meant was:

What can a Direct Entry Captain (married with a 2 year old), expect to save after rent, utilities, food, entertainment, transport, education, etc, etc.?
Rent- Expect to pay US Prices..I pay $1500 for a 4 Bedroom in the best part of town.

Food- Is twice the cost of USA food if it is shipped over...vegies and local products are chap.

Entertainment- your quess is as good as mine.....

Transportation- buying a car here is double what it costs in the USA. So, we take taxies.....about $4/5 miles.

Education- covered that....look at some of my other posts.

Utilities- I pay about $300-350/ month for water, gas and electric.

We live in Shekou on the water....the best place in Shenzhen so if your able to eat Chinese food and live in a chinese home...you'll save more money. My family does not eat Chinese food and I will not EVER live in a chinese home; my place is a mix of Chinese and European. It's the best here.

[JotaJota]

clrblu22,

Excellent synopsis (sp?), crap mixing my eng w/ cn! Great points and VERY similar to my experience as I do work for a different airline here in China for the past 6 months and LOVE it. I can NOT compare to how it was at my major US airline because I would not know on were to start. Here you are treated like a REAL professional!

Yes, China is VERY different but if you can adjust, you'll love it. Here we do not get fined and we do get OT pay for over 80hrs, but no more hiring of expat pilots... Sry. And BTW, Deer Air it is...

Good luck to all!

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The Chinese can NOT be the best pilots, because I am THE Best Pilot, and I am AMERICAN. WE ARE THE BEST!!! Well...maybe not in Health Care-I think we are #34, or #43, or something like that, which is ALMOST #1!

My buddy flies for Shenzhen, and loves it, loves living in Shenzhen, and loves China. He is a CRJ capt and -190 FO.

He said that you CAN get hired in China without a type rating, but you have to be there and walk into the right situation.

It is the same here (I am working in NBO). If you are overseas you have to have a type rating and time in type. If you are here, it is sometimes a different story, depending...

Good luck!

cliff
NBO
PS-If I had the type rating(s), I would applying in China RIGHT NOW!!!

[clrblu22]

You can not get into the 737 or the A320 without a Type and 300-500 hours PIC. The CRJ/ERJ's are a differnt story.

It's true you can like it here with the proper attitude adjustments



I'd also like to add something about Shenzhen Airlines touting promises of overtime. Dont be fooled; you may see one month of some then never see it for the rest of the year. They will work you to the limit then shut you down....

Look at the regulations here and you'll see. If they fly you to the limit (and they do) overtime is a rare thing and shouldnt be counted. Always sounds better than it really is.

[JotaJota]

As clrblu22 said, for the 320 and the 37's ALL must be typed and current, and PIC of 500+

That sucks about OT. Here we are all getting 5-10 hrs of OT every month and being paid for it... Even when we take our 2 weeks off we get some OT as they put them at the end of one month and at the beginning of the next one... Also we are being told that they might hire some more expat captains, as they have hired some from the bankrupted East Star.

How do you like Shenzhen? I have use UR tng center and stayed at the Sunway hotel... nice...

Good luck...

[dodedum]

First kick at the can. Thanks for the info guys! JotaJota where are you based with Deer. Any info about your job conditions would be greatly appreciated. i.e. days on/off, duty times, layovers, housing costs, health care, child care,schools and expat community,okay for wife and kid? I am currently employed but thinking of taking a LOA for a 2 year contract for the experience.

[JotaJota]

dode, too many questions so little time :eek:

Housing, school, and all costs are well bellow the allowances...

Based in paradise while on one of the best contracts in China (if not the best narrow body contract). Pm me if ya want more details... And yes we are hiring again... Must be current on the A320 w/ 500 PIC on type...

[clrblu22]

JaJa,

Shenzhen is ok......nothing that I'd bragg about though. Could be better, could be worse.

How is Deere doing...whats the pay...taxes; where do you have to live?

[JotaJota]

clr, several bases but at the present all expats are living in Sanya, Hainan Island, and we LOVE it! Pay about $170k /year net plus OT, plus 24k bonus after 2 years, plus... :eek:

Hey and you do have your CAAC ATPL correct? A320 current? Send me a PM with some of your background info if interested, as I might be able to get you a quick swap to Deer...

[clrblu22]

Thanks for the offer but I'm on a 3 year contract. Unless you complete it, the CAAC will not release you to another airline or Province. So for now, I'm here. When my time here gets short, I'll send you something if you dont mind. I dont think that there is any way I'll be able to fly back home so I'll probably stay in Asia.

Your pay sounds great.......is that 170K after tax?

[JotaJota]

Yep... And about the CAAC and the contracts, it's all about Contacts!

Good luck bro...

[myknobblyknees]

Problem with Sanya is there are no...nil foreign schools...nada ...not even for nursery level...there are no facilities that your kids are used to such as after school activities or clubs etc etc.
Unless you want to self educate your kids the local schools will teach in mandarin/chinese so its a non starter if you have kids older than pre-school and their system is very much different than the US/European teaching method.They are big on learning by rote and mountains of homework and very little guiding type education where the kids can develope their own thought process and independance.
I went to visit and although its a nice beach environment theres not a huge amount of other activities developed yet.Scubas good.

[cross bleed start]

Dear JotaJota,

Any agent I can apply for Deer Air besides Rishworth?

Thanks in advance.

CBS

[JotaJota]

I think DPI, but for now RAL is the one talking about it... I will have some direct info from the "boss" in a week or so...

P.S. Why not RAL?

[cross bleed start]

I think Rishworth has enough candidate for Deer Air already.
I e-mailed Rishworth if I can apply for Deer Air, she said O.K.
So I asked T&C, screening date.
Then her reply is as below

"Thank you for your email.
Please excuse the delay in response as I have received a large number of correspondence recently.
I will endeavour to reply to your email as soon as possible.
Thank you for your patience
Kind regards,"

That's why I am looking for another agent.

CBS

[Colocolo]

JotaJota

[QUOTE][Hey and you do have your CAAC ATPL correct? A320 current? Send me a PM with some of your background info if interested, as I might be able to get you a quick swap to Deer...QUOTE]


Caveat lector: You must have documentation that your previous employers (both Agency and Airline) have released you, and be aware that the CAAC is divided in regions and they do not always play nice with each other.

Cheers

Colocolo

[fly now]

Hi guys ! I am rated on B 737 300-900 with almost 600 on type.

In Europe the situation on B737 is very sad and sohard to get a job!
also the 6 months contract have being reduced to 3 or part-time.

Basically i am looking for B 737 jobs evrywhere ( again!!) and i am also considering Asia! I red about shenzhen airlines selection, and tks a lot! it was very detailed!
ONLY A BIG HUGE QUESTION :

IS THIS CONTACT CORRECT?
foreign_pilot AT
shenzhenair.com
IF NOT OR YOU HAVE OTHER CONTACTS PLEASE FORWARD IT..

i AM REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO RECEIVE INFO

THANK U FOR NOW

FLYNOW

[Brian304]

600 hours P1 or P2 on type may I ask sir? Shenzhen are only accepting Captain positions currently...

[clrblu22]

This is what you must put up with if you come to China...not just at Shenzhen...the fines arent new but the regulation just got worse....more to come I'm sure. Make sure you ask your recruiter what he is doing to get rid of this archaic way of punishing for perfomance...if you are new to Shenzhen, the permission for punishment is in your contract....."the beatings will continue until moral improves" is not a joke here!

Dear all captains:

Please find attached with a part of new regulations of our company "Civil Aviation Flight Safety Management Manual", it's a new regulation of penalty of "Hard Landing". It's the same with the penalty for Chinese pilots However as you know, salary calculation for foreign captains is different from that of Chinese captains. ....(Yea..we make more because we are not indentured servants to the airline. Shenzhen has paid for all thier training and therefor owe them something. We on the other hand dont owe them anything yet are punished more severely) So please note that the related economic penalty for foreign captains will be as below

1. A person responsible for an event of excessive vertical G-load at touchdown of 2.0 G (inclusive) to 2.5 G (not inclusive), or for two events of excessive vertical G-load at touchdown of 1.8 G or more within 12 calendar months(excluding two events of more than 2.0 G), he will only be paid 50% of full salary when he can not conduct any flight due to said events, the period will be from the date of his flight stop, to the date of his captain position comeback. (You will also pay for your own sim check to come back to the line...how long will you be on half pay, your quess is as good as mine)

2. A person responsible for an event of excessive vertical G-load at touchdown of 2.5 G or more, or for two events of excessive vertical G-load at touchdown of 2.0 G or more within 12 calendar months, his contract will be immediately terminated.

[khomekuh]

This job is rubbish! If you have another option, avoid working for Shenzhen Airlines!
The money is not that bad but they want your blood! I've lived in China for three years, no way. It's horrible! :=

[EPASZ]

2. A person responsible for an event of excessive vertical G-load at touchdown of 2.5 G or more, or for two events of excessive vertical G-load at touchdown of 2.0 G or more within 12 calendar months, his contract will be immediately terminated.

Good way of getting out of that :mad: company...who wants to work in a Chinese airline anyway...full of :mad:s

[JotaJota]

Shenzhen might suck, BUT my current Chinese employer is EXCELLENT!!! :ok::ok::ok:

Do your homework I guess... No comparison to ANY US carrier!

[clrblu22]

Seems that quite a few pilots are leaving Shenzhen Airlines very soon. The company is literally scrambling to fix a few things, here and there. …good thing but a little too late.
Heard from a few individuals that they are trying to obtain a “letter of release” from Shenzhen Airlines so they can pursue other options in China. One individual from SZA went to another carrier here, with a letter of release! After this person quit his/her job, the CAAC informed “this airline” that thier new pilot owes Shenzhen 400,000 Yuan ($58,823.00). That means that you are screwed !!! No airline here can claim that they “train” us because we are all current captains when we get here. What is up with that?
So, has this happened to anyone else or does anyone know the legal system here; willing to give advice on how to handle this kind of extortion…because that is exactly what it is.
I additionally think that this should be something that any contractor service provider should be able to answer with absolute certainty before you sign your liscense over to the CHINESE.

[eddie shoestring]

Thanks for all the information guys. I'm about to pack my bags and head over for the interview next week. Now I know a few more questions to ask Wasinc et al. I must say I'm sceptical, but keeping open approach.

[pauli767]

Stargate, try "WASINC"...One word...World Aviation Systems Inc (http://www.wasinc.net/jobs)

Cheers

PBS

[fly_fly]

do your homework before considering wasinc.
they are good on the phone and good at getting you to sign up but then leave you stranded and don't follow through. then they don't return phone calls or emails. they still owe me over $10,000 from the end of a contract. airline paid them, they kept the money. do your research, I'm not the only one. this is not I've heard or somebody told me, this is first hand experience and has happened to some other guys I know.
stay away from wasinc.

[clrblu22]

FYI, for those of you considering Shenzhen Airlines. WASINC is just a conduit, remember that. They do what the airline says and have limited power.

On the flip side, those of us that have been here for a while are finding out that our contracts, and yours, are worth less than the paper they are written on. To explain let me quote the contract:

"
2. The parties also acknowledge that if CONTRACTOR fails to submit ninety (90) days prior
notice to SHENZHEN AIRLINES and WASINC INTERNATIONAL, SHENZHEN
AIRLINES and WASINC INTERNATIONAL would be damaged since it would not be
enough period to find a replacement for CONTRACTOR.
3. The parties acknowledge and agree that damages associated with such types of early
termination are too difficult to ascertain.
4. ACCORDINGLY, the parties agree as follows;
A. Early termination of the assignment shall be subject to the charge of Liquidated
Damage payment;
B. If CONTRACTOR resigns after the assignment to SHENZHEN AIRLINES, or if
WASINC INTERNATIONAL terminates CONTRACTOR for Cause,
CONTRACTOR shall pay WASINC INTERNATIONAL the following sum"

Dependant on your contract the penalties are differnet but the bottom line is that Shenzhen Airlines IS NOT HONORING THE CONTRACT SHOULD YOU LEAVE AND WANT TO GO TO ANOTHER CHINESE CARRIER! They are charging you 400,000 Yuan for "Training, admin and finders fees". Although this is totally illegal, they are not letting anyone leave with a "LETTER OF GOOD STANDING" so you can pursue other options....

One or two guys have completed the entire contract and Shenzhen would not give a release letter to them. They are forced to sign another contract with Shenzhen or leave China to search for another job.

I am not just another pissed off pilot; I've tried to stay fair and not bitch and moan; I've tried to give everyone an honest opinion of this place. Read your contract, ask questions, ask about the "release letter" at contract completion (why isnt it in your contract that you will get one?), where is the signiture for shenzhen? (why isnt it there), how am I suppose to pay my bills in America if the $$ you give me goes to a Chinese Bank? (some guys are illegally exchanging thier Yuan in cash and taking it across the border to Hong kong and dep. it in thier HSBC account), ask who has been able to wire money out of China and if you can speak with them about the process, if you need to terminate your contract via the legal and binding verbage in your contract, will you or wont you get a letter and why!, if you leave early will you owe training costs (this is turning out to be true even if you leave at the end of your contract), Ask about paying for your own simulator training should you have a hard landing or get pulled off line for other reasons. No pilot at shenzhen is getting more than 2000 yuan a month for fuel bonuses and even that number declines every month as the re-adjust the math to suit the financial needs of the comany; bottom line is dont count on it.

If they are not involved in the processes at Shenzhen then who are they representing and why arent they able to answer your questions....

They've even required pilots to set up accounts in Hong Kong and lie about thier profession (I have the email!). When the first group of pilots went over there, they refused to tell them that they were "Toy Salesmen"...yea, I said that right...Toy salesmen. That completely fell through as well as them asking us to buy illegal receipts from the secretary (at 1% of the face value) at Shenzhen so the airline could turn it into the goverment.

This crap is so crazy that there is no way I could make this up.....dont get me wrong, its better than not having a job but it pays to know who and what you are dealing with before you come over here...it is not easy.

[fly_fly]

yes, wasinc is just a conduit and they are good at playing the smoke and mirrors game. you sign a contract with their hong kong shell company which is just a PO box for collecting money, then DR and ST funnel the money away to america. If you have any dispute, they are in america and it's a different corporation so good luck at disputing anything. your contract is just with a shell company with a PO box in hong kong, not with shenzhen, not with the real wasinc, just smoke and mirrors. everybody new coming over here says hey can I get a copy of the contract so I can look over it? well don't waste your time, the contract is about as valuable as toilet paper. wasinc doesn't follow the contract, and chinese airlines won't follow the contract. the only reason they pay you is because they want you to come back the next month. reembursements, or any other promises like bonouses or vacation pay, forget it. been there, done that. not a rumor.

[fly737ng]

FYI if you are looking to come to Shenzhen Airlines please contact me directly for any and every detail you need. I have been here for 3 years, an American, my wife will fill you in on all family questions, school, life style.

There are two contractors Wasinc International and FRI. I would suggest you research both extensively before signing anything. I would prefer FRI over Wasinc. International, personal reasons. There are very strict rules with the CAAC goverment and the airlines. You may email directly and I will be happy to discuss any specific questions with you.

Not everything is in the writing of the contracts. Careful!!!

[fly737ng]

Try Parc Aviation? Shanghai? Remember once you sign on with a chinese carrier that is the only one you will ever work for unless you have 50k to 80k maybe more to pay each airline for a release letter!!!! UP to you.....

[fly737ng]

Careful about Shenzhen Airlines contractor Wasinc. READ EVERYTHING carefully and the questions about release letters.....

[faaatp]

everybody, if you have another option, please stay away from WASInc....just one more voice confirming what is was allready said...good luck:ok:

[On Final]

Wow, many good posts here on China in this Shenzhen thread...! Good Work..! Shenzhen is a nice place, almost western style. Working in China is a strange game, normally when you go in through your Rep., you are so far in you can't get out and hopefully you are on the right track. The reason is it takes months from the time you start until you are flying the line in China. Be careful and make sure you check with your friends to make sure your agency is taking care of you. The good news is, China is hot and time to make some money men..!!!!

Good luck,

On Final

Here some more information on China you can check out with these links :

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/348697-if-you-want-work-china-3.html#post5312356

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/350239-required-paperwork-work-china.html#post4517933

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/262104-chinese-written-test-2.html#post4517941

[snk596]

One bad person's experience with an agency becomes everyone's RULE.
Then READ BELOW!

Old 4th November 2009, 04:59 #82 (permalink)
fly_fly
Probationary PPRuNer

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastwest
Posts: 4

Thumbs down wasinc - stay away from them
do your homework before considering wasinc.
they are good on the phone and good at getting you to sign up but then leave you stranded and don't follow through. then they don't return phone calls or emails. they still owe me over $10,000 from the end of a contract. airline paid them, they kept the money. do your research, I'm not the only one. this is not I've heard or somebody told me, this is first hand experience and has happened to some other guys I know.
stay away from wasinc.


This is right out of the horses mouth. I have heard loads of things about China. If you have US dollars in your account saved, you have a hard time taken it out of China. Airlines in China have penalties for any misdemeanor, etc.
I have just joined PPRuNe but I have been reading a lot of this for very long time. But I have heard from friends that some guys went over to Hainan for interview and they were put up in an apartment building. Not even a hotel. This is HNA group, subsidary we are talking about. They had such a dissappointment, they never expected to be eating in a canteen. Thats what the airlines offered take it or leave it. No one spoke any English. This is recent sometime in September 2009.
They met other pilots who were working there said pay was below standard and were thinking about leaving to Korea. I myself was surprised because I heard good things but even the simulator evaluation was tough with multiple failures. Single engine plus dual RA failure plus Hydraulic failure and direct law altogether with cross wind.

What do those guys want acrobats?

I am also looking for a position but considering Korea or Vietnam, even Air Asia would be better. I called Macau Express, they seem to be interested in f.o and Capt.
Hey JotaJota! Looks like you are working for a perfect airline or getting paid highly. Which airline is that I would like to know so I can apply too. But reading this,I don't know man.

[clrblu22]

If you fly here, you will never be able to fly for another Chinese Airline unless you (or your new airline) pays the CAAC a fine. That fine amount (as of right now), looks to be in the amount of 1,000,000 Yuan. This way the CAAC can help the Chinese Carriers hold on to thier pilots.

Imagine if any Chinese pilot could switch airlines.......this is how they stop it. Anyway, you and I fall under the same umbrella and there is nothing we can do about it.

This is the stuff WASINC and the others wont tell you about. They will say they know nothing but that is a lie.

[On Final]

Hello, I am not the expert but have heard about the problems of switching China Airlines. I heard you will be black balled if you switch but i think it depends on your carrier. If you have a no "compete clause" put in your contract may help. It should spell out as long as you terminate your contract according to the rules you will be issued a release letter which will allow you to work at another Chinese airline. I think more than the written letter of your contract just do a good job and work out the details like a gentleman before you leave and it may help.

Many Chinese pilots owe their carriers to their companies because they train them from square one. The company pays for everything and the pilots are forever locked into the company. They can never leave unless they pay off their debt, I heard around 1,000,000 but never heard of a fine to the CAAC.

You may be right, I don't know and never tested my theory either. It is different and one must be careful if they plan to switch airlines in China.

Good Luck On Final.!!

[cameltoad]

Hey there,

Is WASinc. the only game in town for working at Shenzhen, I am looking to take a A-320 capt. job in China and Shenzhen as a place to live seemed the best (over Beijing, Shanghai, Chengdu) but getting a bad vibe about WASinc. Any info would be great.:ok:

[snk596]

Thats the attitude that China has. This is because most of the Chinese pilots have been trained from zero hours unlike in America. So, the carrier owns you. If they don't pay you for a month or so its normal attitude with many airlines. You will come across one or two post where the expat pilot has been hired by one on time paying carrier and he/she has only good things to say. I am trying to get all info myself and a couple of friends got hired by Air China. The place they stayed in China was a 2 star hotel, more like an apartment.
Read some of the Shenzen post and BE CAREFUL WHICH AGENCY YOU CHOOSE. Everybody I know is strongly telling me to choose only Parc,Rishworth and Sigmar. Don't even bother to look at others.

Try FRI. you might have to search it. don't know the acronym stands for. I read it in an earlier Shenzen post. Suggestion, Avoid Shenzen. They have a high turn over rate for pilots.

[eddie shoestring]

Just my two cents worth

I have recently been through the Shenzhen Airlines screening and I must say I don't have a bad word to say about Wasinc.
The guys were very pleasant, showed us around the place and yes we all got out tickets reimbursed without any problems.
They did a great job of getting us all through the screening process and gave us all the relevant information we needed.
They invited us to ask any questions about any concerns and I believe answered them truthfully, including the Kunpeng issues.....

They also explained that they are at the mercy of Shenzhen Airlines itself, and it is common practice for Chinese companies to pay late. Hardly something the agencies can be blamed, or held responsible for I would have thought.
As far as contracts go, I have done a few contracts now and I can honestly say that no agency is perfect or any contract is water-proof.
If you are (going to be) new to contracting, you have to realise that you are on your own, a sole trader and therefore lack the protection of the masses. Unless you have very strong backing from a union of sorts, you stand on your own feet and accept the risks. In the end of the day it is about supply and demand.
Luckily for us, experience pilots are (now) in demand in China and the agents, including Wasinc, are impressing upon their clients that in order to attract and retain their pilot group, they need to pull up their socks. Don't forget, this is also a learning curve for them. I don't think there are many airlines around the world that are actually expanding and therefore need pilots.
Shenzhen Airlines alone need another 100 pilots next year, so we have been told. Like I said, my two cents worth is that you do your homework and if you are going to post comments like "stay away from XYZ agency" then back up your argument with supporting facts.

[snk596]

I completely agree with Eddie Shoe string. That's what I heard about Wasinc and they gave a positive reply when I called them to inquire about the interview. Very organized! GO FOR IT MAN!

HOPEFULLY YOU HAVE THE SAME TO SAY AFTER A FEW MONTHS INTO THE CONTRACT. ITS CHINA AND don't forget Wasinc's office is also in Shenzen. If they base you in Chengdu, I wonder if you get the same treatment. read earlier threads, its all smoke and mirrors. Four guys have already experienced non payment and left. thats why Shenzen needs 100 pilots because of the turn overs.

I have done my research thoroughly and before I go for any interview, I would like to see the contract. This 100 pilot ordeal is just to attract guys like us because we are expendable. They don't have to pay us and there is not a thing we can do about it. I don't see myself getting an attorney and fighting the battle. If XYZ is our representative then whom are they really representing? Us or the airline? The truth is bitter, they know the inside story, its all politics. Why is there only one agency for Shenzen and reputated Rishworth, DPI, PARC, Sigmar, etc are not representing Shenzen. They should back away from such an airline. If they stop sending pilots to an airline then we start getting paid on time. Its taking away candy from a child so that he learns. But thats not happening. Shenzen was here in USA and I was at the seminar. not once those guys mentioned about late payment which is going on a regular bases. You can't have AN EXCUSE WE ARE AT THE AIRLINES MERCY. THATS HORSEhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif
GUYS! Before you sign up for the interview and get hopes up, ask to see the contract. YES! before going for the interview or at least ask the details. I am not aiming at any particular agency. If they are happy to show you and at least email you details then you know this is one of the right agencies.
I called up an agency for Korean 744. You can only make 3 attempts for the interview dates with Korean. The agency told me you can choose another agency to apply for the interview after. I knew right then this agency has nothing to hide, because they are advising me that I can still apply for the selection process with their competitors after my 3 attempts with them. I am talking about selection process for INTERVIEW. This is whom we want as our rep.

[NGFellow]

Here a question regarding Shenzen Airlines:

1. Can you switch from commuting to non-commuting contracts midstream?

2. Is the educational allowance of USD 1000/month per child or total?

Thanks

[Sleek]

Yes and No.You might be able to with great difficulty. Check with the agent. I am guessing no till at least 1 year due to the pay.

[eddie shoestring]

NGFellow,

The conditional contract I have, states that you can switch between the options every anniversary, so theoretically three times during the three year contract.

The education allowance is effectively for one child only.

[Sleek]

Thanks Eddie Shoe string.
My guess was right. Good to know! Not a bad contract. But I am hearing all kinds of not good stuff about the airline in particular. This is from pilots who are there now? Whom are you using as your agent? Wasinc or another?
Thanks in advance

[fly_fly]

Yes if you call wasinc they will answer your questions. They are very good at talking and getting you to sign up so they can collect commission on you. Once they are collecting commission on you, you will be on your own. Support dwindles down to minimum. Your reply time after you get to china will change from the same or next day to sometimes weeks for a reply. Wasinc is interested in recruitment but not retention. They don't want to step on the customers (shenzhen airlines) toes too much so they will always take sides with the airline and you will always get the short end of the stick. When you try to leave (in accordance with contract), don't expect any of the end of contract stuff to be followed. Expect wasinc to even keep some of your money.



Your contract won't be followed, it's a guideline only.


One thing for sure, is you will be locked in. If you try to change airlines or contract agency you will have all sorts of problems. Very very few people are able to do it successfully.


Yes, they need pilots because a BUNCH of guys left recently... there is a reason for this... if it is so great why would they leave? There are a lot of people angry at wasinc now. And not all of them talk on the internet.


The whole thing is a cowboy show and you will be the hired gun to come in and shoot from the hip - "bending the rules".

[ReverseFlight]

Your contract won't be followed, it's a guideline only.

Not siding with anyone after reading post after post of people saying China never honours its contracts but all of us need to understand how Chinese contracts really work. They are not the equivalent of their counterparts in common law-based countries (China is civil law-based).

The Chinese contract invariably starts off with a preamble (blurb) about the governing laws of China and the need for mutual cooperation etc etc. Most foreigners will bypass this blurb and go straight on to scrutinise the detailed sub-clauses - but the preamble is the most important section in the entire contract:

Reality #1: The governing laws of China are the ones which will apply in case of any conflict with the contract's detailed provisions.

Reality #2: The need for mutual cooperation means the parties must be prepared to be flexible (i.e. depart from the provisions of the contract) in order to achieve Reality #1.

[snk596]

Hey Reverse Flight,
We are talking about THE AGENT! not airline. Wasinc takes the money from the airline and keeps the salary of the pilots. What does that have to do with the airline? Look into it a little more and you will know its all bunch of horse:mad:. What flyfly said is absolutely true. There are many pilots who are burnt with wasinc. This is not a rumour. It is FACT!

[ReverseFlight]

snk596, I appreciate what you say.

If you can't bind the airline, then expect even less from the agent ! :ugh:

[snk596]

What you hear and see is not what you get!
I agree with OnFinal with a lot of points. I guess we share same thoughts.
Here is the deal guys. Every agency wants to make money. But after they get you to China are they going to stand by you OR AT LEAST DIRECT YOU in the right path. Almost all agencies are very nice in the beginning, some even go out of the way to help you, but what about after arriving in China OR THE COUNTRY YOU CHOOSE. Has anyone thought about that?
VOR HOLDINGS ask us to sign all the airlines consent form in the beginning. WHY? If I want to choose one airline why do I sign for the others with VOR Holdings? That Is not right! IT IS HORSEhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif
The agency that tells you upfront that you can try with us for three attempts and after that you are free to choose another agency, that is the agency you want to choose as your representing agent , because they seem honest and will remain honest after your arrival in that foreign country you choose.
Now I am not too keen on WASINC, but Wasinc does not make pilots sign all airlines consent form. You choose Shenzen you sign Shenzen only. Don't get me wrong I am not in favour of WASINC. But the fact is the fact.
I have done research and found DPI, Sigmar, Cambridge to be black and white.
This PPRuNe is to protect our fellow pilots and not throw them from the frying pan into the FIRE!
Any one praising VOR and WAS has to be either an inside guy or a pilot who has not yet experienced few months into the contract. I agree I am not few months into the contract but I have made LOADS of calls to overseas pilots who are years into the contract and they have 3 good things to say but 20 dissappointment facts. Come on guys I can understand few bad points but explaining 20 bad points which make complete sense is a sign stay away from VOR/WAS.

Hey Typhoonpilot! Get that clause removed. If they say no. Show them the finger we love so much....... MAN!..........Because pilots get their salary after Chinese taxes are paid and yes you can get a receipt from the airline stating the tax paid so you can show the government of your country the amount of tax you paid overseas as a result you owe less tax to your country's government. I know for a fact UNCLE SAM accepts this.
Typhoonpilot, which agency has this clause in their contract? i would like to give them a peae of my mind. this VOR has their office address in USA so American pilots have to be careful because you will receive salary in USA and end up paying double the tax. I would not beleive a word VOR has to say about the TAX. There is one thing you don't mess with and THAT IS YOUR TAXES TO IRS!

[novak757]

Do you know if you can bring dog and cats from the states? Do any Expats have pets there?

[eddie shoestring]

Other than the obvious, can anyone enlighten us on what exactly happens when you don't get paid on the due date?
Let me clarify... so the 15th rolls around and, hey presto, no dinero is deposited into your bank account. So you call or email the agency and let them know your concerns.
My questions, in all seriousness, is what happens after that?
Do you get paid a few days later…the following month or what?
I’m just trying to get a realistic idea on the scope of this issue and what to expect. :confused:
I can perhaps live with not getting paid on the due date, but would expect the issue to be resolved pronto.
Also, I’d like to know who is not paying you? The airline or the agency?
According to the contract setup, Shenzhen itself pays you part of the contract fee into a Chinese account and the balance is paid by the agency into a separate account in HK. Supposedly to mitigate the taxes.

[eddie shoestring]

Hey Novak757
Why don't you try to get in touch with the girls at "Dial-an-Angel" here Dial-an-Angel - Shenzhen relocation & real estate services (http://www.shekou.biz/) and ask them. They did a great job showing us around the place and may have the answers you seek.

Cheers :ok:

[snk596]

Hey Eddie Shoestring,
Lets get something clear here. Why are you saying pay day of 15th? I have been told it is the 10th and the airline pays the agency before end of the month. This, I confirmed with the agency.
As for not getting paid by due date, Pilots have to do the usual. Give out a few fumes, yell shout kick a few boxes around bang and hang up the phone on the agency. Finally! Threaten to stop flying and start packing your bags to LEAVE.
I am serious about what I mentioned I am not being sarcastic or having a laugh. There is nothing we can do when in China. This is why I am trying to find an agent who is reliable or at least somewhat close to reliability/credibility.
If anyone knows any other PLEASE LET ME KNOW. I have sent my documents to a couple of agents and waiting.
Eddie Shoestring! If you are there in Shenzen with wasinc are you facing this problem. I would like to know because my application is also with wasinc and if the other agency doesn't call I will have no option but choosing Wasinc for the process.

[cameltoad]

I too would love any info on any more reliable contractors. I have a tentative interview set up with Shenzhen but the threads I have read are making me nervous. I do hear good things about Sichuan (sic) in Chengdu represented by VORholdings, and I hear Global Aviation does a good job but I am not sure who they represent. As far as my own experience with contractors they seem to be peas-in-a-pod. I am currently serving time in the middle east and of of the three contractors the bulk of the pilot group works with its all about the same. They do a pretty good job of getting you as far as the interview, but once there you are pretty much on your own. You don't get paid, company says they sent money, after several days, the contractor accidentally picks up the phone, comes up with some cosmic BS excuse of why you have not been paid yet. Or the new favorite here, we were ALL told you would do training during on rotation,,,,but for the last year we do our 6 weeks and then get to go to training. And now the latest twist. The contractor for the training is pissed at the company, the solution, fail all the expats, so the company has to pay for more sim. time. Now the company has come out and said if this happens your not allowed to go home, but must stay and do the recheck. This means your 3 week home just got cut to a week.
So, again, if anybody feels good about standing up for one of the Asian contractors I'd like to know. My family cannot deal with separation any more and I am not bringing them to the kingdom, so the Far East it has to be. BTY can you join Shenzhen direct?

[cameltoad]

Hi Novak757,

I am not in China but I do know the people have brought pets and I do not remember it being a huge issue. BTY, did you fly for ACA till about the mid 90's?

[eddie shoestring]

Snk596


This is from the Sample contract I was sent...

Payment Schedule

A) Monthly Service Fee: This fee shall be paid to CONTRACTOR by WASINC INTERNATIONAL on the 15th day of the month following the month the relevant services are provided.

If you have been told anything different in the last month, then you are probably correct. Wheather it's the 10th or the 15th is not my concern, I am just trying to get an idea of how often the payments are late and if it's (just) the agent or the airline itself that is defaulting.
How long do you wait for the money to arrive in your bank account after you kicked a few boxes around, sent smoke signals etc and generally got :mad:off with the agent?
I appreciate you are not being sarcastic or having a laugh, neither am I.
I just want to get an idea of the scope of the pay issue.
As far as finding a totally reliable agent...., haven't found or worked for one yet, sorry.

[snk596]

OK GUYS I AM GOING TO combine a lot of stuff for all.
Eddie Shoestring! That agent was not Wasinc it is DPI who pays by the 10th. but as I said DPI is slower than wasinc. wasinc is aggressive and gets you there. HONESTLY! I don't know if it is the agent who delays the payment or Airline?

Cameltoad! Read previous threads, they say to stay away from VOR and W. I think I read somewhere Global is second name for VOR. I think! For sure China Recruitment is VOR because I called and the Chinese lady(it is a China no.) said to contact Doug Mowrey. Pretty much all agents get you to your destination and then BYE BYE!
That should be fine with all of us because we are pilots and have to deal on our own.
But the agent has to make sure we get our salary. Thats all I am concerned with. I don't need babysitting. NO! I am not making fun of anybody.

As far as I have checked and made hundreds of calls you need a type rating + min 500 hrs PIC on type. plus TT, etc.
Now! there is one post somewhere here where a pilot stated he got into A CHINESE AIRLINE WITH 250 HRS ONLY! BACK A YEAR ago OR SO. But he seemed to be a smart a_ _. He won't tell us who the airline is and blah blah! having a laugh while he wrote that.YES he is in one of these posts. maybe on another thread.
It is whom you know and how desperate China gets.
I am still contacting a few pilots there in China who are giving me inside and trying to help me out. the info I get is mainly for 737 and A320.

[Eagle150]

This snk596 seems to be knowing more sitting in USA than anyone flying in China! where do you get your info? It is accurate, I agree. But it is too much correct information!
Add to your list, snk596. I hope you are sitting down for this.
In CHINA! Passenger airline's ground staff make money illegally.They load up cargo in the cargo bay/bin/hold whatever. On many occasions this cargo is not manifested! YES! It goes unseen. Airplane gets from point A to point B and the cargo is offloaded quitely. The airline has no clue because there is no paperwork. RESULT! airplane being heavy and speeds calculated at a lighter weight.
This way ground staff is running their own little mafia at the life's of others.
Sorry, I can't mention the name of the airline. But this came from the pilot's mouth who was in the cockpit and the Chinese co-pilot figured it out not this expat.
Well for those of us keen to head out to the FarFarFar East, be careful!
I have heard a recorded conversation of ATC in China. they speak Chinese and English to foreign airlines. the checklist is in CHINESE!

[On Final]

Hello, I have been flying in China for going on 2 years and here is my view.

1. The controllers are required to speak English to foreign flight planned crews. (they do wonder off and start speaking Chinese, just reply in English).
2. Cargo, I think it may be true that cargo is loaded on the plane without paperwork. Just keep that in mind when you fly but I would think it is small amounts, who knows.
3. Metric altitudes you convert to feet for your airplane.
4. QNH but there are a few QFE airports

Many other factors that are different from the west.

Good Luck, On Final

[novak757]

thnx for the tip. I'll get in touch with them.

[novak757]

I'm reading alot of bad about Wasinc has anyone used Sigmar for this shenzin contract? In general what do people think about Sigmar Aviation?

[Captain Falcon]

I've been here at Shenzhen for some time now and don't understand some of these posts about working for Shenzhen and/or WASINC. Some of the posts did raise some very good questions but figured it would be better to go right to the source to find out the truth about some of these issues.

I spoke to Dave Ross and Brian Turner on the phone at WASINC and they explained the entire story to some of these posts that are found on this forum. I then went and attempted to contact those who had made those posts to confirm some of the details about their particular experience but have never received a response back from them :ugh:. Just goes to show you that you should do your homework and not take information found on the internet to be truth.

Both Dave and Brian said that they would be happy to explain any situation in full if people have questions. :D

I am very happy here. Sure its different than the US but that was to be expected. I have never had a problem being paid and plan on being here for a LONG time.

[dadof6]

Nice to read the other side of the story.:ok:

[On Final]

Hello,

I have been sitting on the sidelines not trying to raise small arms fire to mention WASINC. My experience has been very good. I have spoke with Dave Ross, Doug Ward and Steve Turner and I have never had any problems. They were always willing to help.

When I first I tried to come to China it was with WASINC, almost 2 years ago. They did not have a position I wanted but WASINC was eager to assist me even when I was with another agency.

Steve Turner helped me with the Chinese Written Exam so I tried to help others as well. I have been in frequent contact with Doug Ward and think they are trying to do the best job they can and look out for the pilots. Many things that happen in China because it is China.

I am sure there are other sides of the story but this is my side I just wanted to put out there..

Good Luck,

On Final

[fly_fly]

"I spoke to Dave Ross and Brian Turner on the phone at WASINC and they explained the entire story to some of these posts that are found on this forum."

So maybe you could share with everybody what the "entire story is" ?

"but figured it would be better to go right to the source to find outthe truth about some of these issues."

Any information you receive from wasinc will be skewed in their favor. Go down to shekou where all the shenzhen pilots live and hang out at a bar or restaurant for long enough to talk with some other pilots who have been burned by wasinc or can't wait for their contract to end so they can try somewhere else. Unfortunately when the contract ends they won't be able to go anywhere else in china because they will be stuck with wasinc. The airline won't release them without a huge fine, and wasinc has a non-compete clause so they won't be able to sign on with the same airline with a different leasing company. Yes, some people are happy and everything is smooth, others have had really bad experiences with wasinc. Lots have left recently, that's for sure...

[Dash 7 Rider]

Anyone who wants information on how these contracts can go badly can PM me. I will share my experience.

WASINC will work hard to get you into the door, but after that you will be left to fend for yourself.

[JotaJota]

Lots have left!!!

[fly_fly]

wasinc is very helpful and will tell you what you want to get you to the door. s. turner "fat cat" doesn't really like to deal with pilots he mainly tries to get new contracts and refers all problems to d.ross who sits at home in america and replies to emails every few weeks once the recruitment phase is over. d.ward is flying the line and will try to encourage you and make everything sound great telling you to hang in there and how they are trying to do this and that and bla bla bla... sound all interested and helpful but none of them really do anything other than get you in the door. Then they collect $750 a month from the airline for the 38 pilots they currently have placed there to do nothing but tell you to hang in there and how they are working so hard to make things better. There are other recruitment agencies out there, come to Shenzhen and hang out long enough to talk to the pilots and hear the horror stories about wasinc.

[joethechinesepilot]

I'm supposed to go to china for the screening with WAS. tell me about the pay. it is late, okay...do you always get paid? they make use a hongkong bank? can you just send it to another US bank? they say the wiring fees are only 20 bucs. I saw where it was said, "don't try and send money out of china" did I paraphrase wrong?

i can handle late...just want to get paid .....has anyone not been mapid for the previous month's flying?

thanks

joe

[Captain Falcon]

Thanks so much for the response fly fly. It certainly seems like you have detailed info, which is helpful for someone like me or anyone new looking at the contract. Are you currently at Shenzhen Airlines as well?

No offense, but I guess I still don’t get it. I have worked contracts in the middle east and Africa, and have worked with several different agencies including PARC and Rishworth. I have always felt that they fill a certain need with the airline regarding advertising and recruiting, but don’t have a lot to do with the airline operation, scheduling, etc. It seems like most of the criticism on this forum is based on personal issues and not operational issues.

I have to go back to the really basic questions: “do you get paid on time?” or “is the operation safe?” I know a lot of guys from the US who think that the agency will operate like a union and force the airline to “make things better” but that really isn’t what the environment is like anywhere in the world. They are an agent of the airline and are hired to fill a certain roll. If you expect more than that, you will be disappointed no matter what country it is.

Has WAS or Wasinc (which is it?) done anything specifically to you that affected your pay or benefits? I hear some guys talk about that the agency did this or that to them, but ultimately it seems like the blame for most of those issues around not following the contract can be traced back to the airline. The agency can only try to manage what the airline decides.

I guess for myself I am not so interested in personal issues against individuals at the agency, but more interested in how the airline operation runs and most importantly that I get paid the amount that was promised in my contract for the work I do.

I haven't been at Shenzhen that long but would be very interested in hearing the horror stories that you mentioned. What recruiting agency do you recommend to fly for Shenzhen? Are the contracts the same between them all?

Captain Falcon

[peoplemover]

Hi Joe,

I can tell you I have been here about 6 months. I have never had a late payment nor do I know anyone here who has not been paid for previous month's flying. My payments have always been a few days early. I have heard a few cases where the airline said to show up for training on xx date and then started payroll a few days later, but didnt seem to be the norm.

They do want you to use HSBC, but will send the money anywhere. They pay the transfer fees the first month and then ask you to pay if you don't want to use HSBC. I have my money sent home and it costs me about 30US for the HSBC transfer fee and 10US for my home bank. If you use HSBC in HKG theres no charge at all.

I guess I dont understand all the negativity on this thred. An agent can only do what the airline does. In my experience wasinc was helpful and provides support when/if I need it.

good luck on yr screening,

Peeps

[Captain Falcon]

JotaJota - Lots have left!!!

How many have left Shenzhen that had contracts at Wasinc? what about the other agencies?

[Droste]

I wonder, if I were to pay for my own type-rating to the airline (say, Shenzhen Airline), will they offer me a job?

Can this work out? Or has anybody done this before?

[Fareastdriver]

? No, ? No, & ? No.

[Flashtec]

I am about to go there for an interview via WASINC for an A320 cap. Any tips?

[myknobblyknees]

This all depends on who you get for the interview and sim.
On my interview day we were all selected but the group the previous month only one came through out of 8.
The sim is conducted at a fast pace and so dont let them rush you.Cutting corners may be what sunk those guys as they try to pile on the instructions and failures things can get messy.
Interview more relaxed nothing too technical.
Medical very thorough.
Cinese ATPL....nightmare....

[Flashtec]

What the sime ride looks like?

[Eff Oh]

Hi guys.
Forgive me if this information is already "out there," but I was wondering if anyone could provide some more detail on the recruitment process. Information such as what type of interview you can expect, sim profiles etc. Any feedback is good. :ok:
Thanks a lot guys.
Happy landings.
EO

PS I know there is some info above, I was just looking for a little bit more detail. Thanks.

[ihateaviation]

I see a lot of companies advertising online for Shenzhen Airlines jobs. I know I've read here that VOR Holdings and WASINC are two. Does anyone have a complete list of companies that hire for Shenzhen so I can contact all of them?

[cameltoad]

I just did the Shenzhen screening and this is how it went for me

Fly into Hong Kong and take the ferry over to Shekou, WASinc puts you up in a hotel there the first night (they put you up all nights but this is the first night hotel)
First off there is no interview, but I am sure if you act and look like an Ass you will be gone. There are two different medicals checks you will do. The first with Shenzhen. They take blood, urine, and a chest xray. the second is done some days later by the CAAC in either Beijing or Shanghai, it is through. EEG,EKG,ECG, eyes, hearing, ultrasound, yup just like the wife got when preg. they are looking for kidney stones, gall stones, and who knows what else.
I will say this about it, if they find something wrong, they tell you and tell you to go home and get it fixed, they do work with you in their own way.
Second, there is a written test, sometimes you have to fly far away to take it, it just depends where it is being offered when you are there. As far as the test, man, I don't know what to say. It's basically the FAA ATP but with a couple of twists. The questions were english, translated into Chinese and then back, and some of them got funky in all the shifting. Some of the questions are Chinese air law and you have to study the Chinese ATP theory pdf that WAS supplies, have fun, its 395 pages and you need to know it. My test was 40% tech, a lot of weather theory, and some Chinese Air Law, also even simple question can be hard, its easy to determine the available landing length of 25R in LAX but the answers are all in meters.
Third the Sim., while through, is not impossible, but the push and rush as hard as they can. Expect WS, TCAS, V1, Dual Hyd. (one of you will get BG the other GY for you A-320 guys) single engine selected/selected VOR to a missed, dual FCU fail, emer. decent, colapsed rt. main gear on landing, low speed abort. They also do ALL of this to a LARGE crosswind, it's their thing. I was told a lot of their runways are not lined up with local prevailing winds

[novak757]

Is there a system test at the Shenzhen Interview? If so can anyone give me a idea what systems I should be studying. And does anyone know what parts of Chinese Aviation Law we should concentrate on? Thanks

[NVpilot]

thor⋅ough

1.executed without negligence or omissions: a thorough search. 2.complete; perfect; utter: thorough enjoyment. 3.extremely attentive to accuracy and detail; painstaking: a thorough worker; a thorough analysis. 4.having full command or mastery of an art, talent, etc.: a thorough actress. 5.extending or passing through

through

1.in at one end, side, or surface and out at the other: to pass through a tunnel; We drove through Denver without stopping. Sun came through the window. 2.past; beyond: to go through a stop sign without stopping. 3.from one to the other of; between or among the individual members or parts of: to swing through the trees; This book has passed through many hands.

[notso]

Camel...toed

How many made it through your screening? What is you next step?

[cameltoad]

The next step is to attend ground school, waiting on a date, there were two other guys that did the interview with me and I do not know what their status is yet.
And, yes NV, I know the difference between thorough and through. But after going to the midnight to 4 am sim., a 1 and a half hour cab ride to HK's airport, 4 hour flight to Tokyo, 12 hrs. to ORD, then 2 more home I was a little foggy while trying to write this on the ground in Chicago before I forgot.:ok:

[fly_fly]

There are lots of companies recruiting for shenzhen airlines.

Here are a few others... Some of then are run by people who have lived in china for 15 years or their whole life!

Air Crew Global (http://www.aircrewglobal.com/)

..::CHINA PILOTS LTD - AVIATION CONSULTANTS & PILOTS RECRUITMENT BROKER IN CHINA::.. (http://www.china-pilots.com/)

Huaxun Technology Limited ----HOME (http://www.huaxun-hk.com/)

Global Aviation Group (http://www.globalaviation-group.com/)

[joethechinesepilot]

study smart cockpit///50 Q's that come word for word from test bank... took about 15 minutes to take

[gyro4]

Hi all,
I am looking at some contracts with China Pilots Ltd but I was wondering if any body out there had any infos on them, ie current work relations with the crews, payments of salaries on time etc
thanks for any infos.
safe flying

[flyhighf15]

Anybody who is thinking about coming to Shenzhen Airlines needs to think about what this could do to their future.
Ask the pilot who right now is battleing with the company about a hard landing. He is already down $10,000 and counting.
Ask the foreign instructor and his student who had a hard landing early last year. These landings are determind by the QAR in the airplane, a means of judging a hard landing that Boeing says is unreliable.
Ask the pilots who had to retain a lawyer to avoid being punished for not following a company policy that was only written in Chinese.
Ask any agent about the punishments that you will be facing for various infractions.
You will be working four days on and two days off, any meeting that the company requires you to attend will be on YOUR day off and does not count as being on duty.
There is also a high rate of good pilots who fail checkrides in the sim or that fail line checks.
Just a few days ago I received multiple emails on the subject of illegally long duty days. Last summer there was so many delays that at least one pilot took a month unpaid leave to recooperate. It is not getting any better.
I can continue with many more examples.
If you are considering Shenzhen, I hope that for your sake you will review what has already been written by clrbu22, jota jota, fly fly and others.
Coming here can change your career in a way you may not like.

[peoplemover]

I have to say that I get a little irritated about some of the posts I see about Shenzhen Airlines. If you look at the various forums on PPRUNE, you can find this kind of stuff about every airline in the world. "Someone I know failed a checkride. He got screwed because he is a foreigner," or "the contract isn't worth anything," or "I had to go to a meeting on my day off." I you listen to all of these dire warnings, you could never take a job anywhere in the world.

I have to say that in my time at Shenzhen Airlines, I have not seen "a high rate of good pilots who fail check rides." There have been a few, but definitely not a large number (and they give you a 2nd chance). I can also say that I have been assigned some long duty days, but it doesnt happen often and I can guarantee you that they don't violate CAAC regulations. Do they tread in the gray area? Sometimes...but lots of the things you find in these posts are half truths or exaggerations. If you have done contract work anywhere in the world you know that it isnt going to be like working 8 days a month at American Airlines.

One thing I will agree with is that Shenzhen (and other airlines in China) are very sensitive to hard landings. There was an A320 crash here about 8 years ago (not Shenzhen Airlines) that involved a hard landing so the CAAC has required all of the airlines to focus on it (probably a little too much).

This is the bottom line for me: It is a good, high paying job. I can be home most nights with my family. I let the small things go and try not to have any hard landings. I try to be respectful and understand that this isn't Kansas. I am here because there aren't a lot of jobs out there. China is a place where penalizing people for infractions is a cultural thing. It isnt just pilots...even the office staff get dinged if they make a mistake. I just do my job and everything goes pretty smooth.
Coming here for me has been OK so far!

[clrblu22]

Just wanted to add some information for those of you considering Shenzhen Airlines or any other airline here in China.

Here at Shenzhen there has been a some Simulator and Line check failures. I personally can attest that, in one particular case, a guy was singled out and failed on a check-ride because he didn't let the CAAC inspector ( a Shenzhen pilot) smoke on his jumpseat some weeks prior to his PC. This WAS NOT a whining pilot but one that has been flying the line here for years and has done it exceptionally. He consequently paid for another sim check and CAAC requires it to be done by the same guy that fails you. On the re-check, the inspector (if you choose to call him that) didn't even repeat the "so called" failed event. Of course the guy passed and is now considering leaving.

Another guy just failed his line check because he selected an altitude (while his FO was doing something) and selected V/S down before the cross cockpit verrification. This "inspector" told the Captain that he passed. So, he continued to fly the next 2 legs with the inspector. When they landed (after they were back in domicile) the inspector suddenly changed his mind and failed him. I believe that youi go on half pay until you fly some line checks with a Chinese instructor then take another line check.

Another guy just had a hard landing (2.7-2.8 g's according to the QAR on the Boeing). His 500 hour first officer was flying; the aircraft encountered a sinker on short final and the captain appropriately took over. Again, this guy payed for all "3" checkrides to get back onto flying status. (This was during the time when the major shareholder of Shenzhen airlines was arrested and took to Beijing; shortly after that one other corrupt Shenzhen management puke quit). Because of this, every so called "safety agency" in china wanted to get a piece of this guy before allowing him to fly again.

Another guy was hijacked by his passengers for 8 hours ( I believe) on the ground. He was held against his will along with the other crewmembers. I've read this guys report to Shenzhen Airlines and can tell you that he did everything that you and I would have done. Shenzhen Airlines ignored his radio calls to Dispatch for help, the ground refused to help, the police at the Boan airport told him that it was Shenzhen airlines's problem. After everything was over, shenzhen swept the whole thing under the table and nothing was ever heard again about it.

I could write until my fingers bleed about the different maintenance issues, corruption and damned politics that it takes to make a living here. It wears on you till you feel like you want to strangle your F/O before you even brief him.

The Chinese are an oppressed society, pilots are no different! We are subject to all their messed up laws (or "guidelines" as they call them) and must turn a blind eye to their cutting corners and coercion . Try to change things here and you'll get a name for yourself.

This place is amazingly incompetent in every aspect of aviation and I personally can not wait to leave. If you need a job, certainly take it if they offer but don't get to comfortable. China and Asia for that matter, is corrupt on a scale that I can not covey; for that you must fly here to know.

To Peoplemover,

If your experiences here are good then my hat off to you and I hope that it continues to be that for you and your family. A sad fact of flying in Asia is that good pilots fail checkrides too and sometimes the failures are not legitimate. This fact is not felt more than here at Shenzhen. The first guy I was talking about (failed sim ride) lost one months pay ($11,750) and 30 days vacation. Add to that the sim cost and worry. The Chinese are very vindictive and if you bruise their pride, you WILL get burned.

Your comment "I can guarantee you that they don't violate CAAC regulations". This is a flat out ignorant statement (it doesnt mean that you are supid just that you dont know what you are talking about). I can personally attest to (and other pilots as well) to illegally scheduled trips that bust duty and rest regulations. I've personally had to call and be quit adamant about rescheduling my trips to meet CAAC regulations. Might I also remind you that the Chinese do not count simulator time for a PC, Recurrent nor pilot meetings as rest! If you haven't been scheduled for a 4 day after 3 days in the sim yet then I say you need to wait before making such definitive comments.

Where is this "Grey area" you talk about. The CAAC regulations are quit clear and a blatant cut and paste of the FAA regulations with a few twists.

Whats irritating to me is comments that lack facts....:ugh:

Can we still be friends:E

[flyhighf15]

Peoplemover, You answered your own question. I'm not trying to tell pilots not to come here, but rather educate them about this place so they can make an informed decision.
Not everybody has been around the world like you and me.
You are right about the punishment culture here.
On the checkride side of things, in the last year I know of 6 failed checkrides which amounts to about 8% of the foreign pilots here.
A year ago there was a class of 11 Chinese FO's where only 1 passed the upgrade to captain. You say that they will give you another chance if you fail in the sim. This is true, but you did not say who pays for the sim. The captain who failed does. We have several examples of this.
You talk about having few overnights, well that depends on what airplane you are on. The airbus has plenty of examples of 4 day trips.
I think you answered your own question very well and I apologize if I made you mad.
One very good thing about coming here is the medical. If there is anything wrong with you they will find it. It is a very comprehensive medical, so it may be worth coming here just to see if you will pass and if you do, you will not have a problem at Korean or in Japan.

[Oceanic815Pilot]

It is what is is boys and girls......

[joethechinesepilot]

there was an ex air force guy on the bus who lived at the sunway...I heard he left..anybody? he was a family man.

[flyhighf15]

The problems at Shenzhen Airlines may be political and all the pilots are just pawns in a bigger game.
Go to Businessweek.com and look at their 3-4-2010 artical on Shenzhen airlines it explains a lot. This is also the day that police arrested the president of the airline. The last pice was reported in the South China Daily today.

[JotaJota]

All over the news that Air China is buying Shenzhen... Wonder what comes out of this!

[clrblu22]

Maybe this will Void all Expat contracts? Maybe someone more contract savvy could voice their opinion on that one.

It's about time that Shenzhen Airlines gets a good cleaning. Hopefully all the management personnel will go away and someone that knows how to run an airline (an honest one I hope) will take over.

[Marlene Smith]

If anyone has info on Deer Airlines with regards to the Chinese ATPL, Sim or living and working in China please let me know.

Thanks,

mews

[Marlene Smith]

What link did you use to study for the system exam for Shenzhen Airlines?

[clrblu22]

For the interview/simride/medical/ATP written, go look at my previous posts. Hope that helps.

[clrblu22]

http://penton-images.adbureau.net/penton/ATWOnline/MUNICH/Munich_March2010_news.gif (http://penton.adbureau.net/accipiter/adclick/CID=00000b361f3b5db600000000/site=atw/sections=default/area=default/aamsz=468x60/acc_random=78314724/pageid=78314724) Another Shenzhen arrest leaves airline control up for grabs

Tuesday March 9, 2010 http://atwonline.firstlightera.com/ERA/ResourceHandler.ashx?270f443f-b1ca-4d1d-854d-1bb0197599aa;ATWNoLinkBlock2.gif (http://atwonline.firstlightera.com/EN/Interface/Redirect.htm?dest=http%3a%2f%2fatwonline.firstlightera.com%2 fEN&location=9525291f-5dd5-44c3-bafa-1cab8d0bbe93&type=11)

Shenzhen Airlines CEO Li Kun was arrested Saturday for alleged financial irregularities, allowing Air China to deepen its involvement in the country's fifth-largest carrier through the appointment of Shenzhen vice chairman and former CA VP Fan Cheng as acting CEO.
Li formerly was vice GM of China Southern Airlines and became CEO of ZH in 2005 following its privatization. Li Zeyuan, who outbid CA and purchased a 65% share of Shenzhen at that time, then was arrested under similar circumstances last November. Li Zeyuan's legal trouble prompted a tussle for control of ZH between CA and China Southern Airlines (ATWOnline, Jan. 8) (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=18985).
CA currently holds 25% of ZH and has been angling to increase its share for some time. Following Le Zeyuan's arrest, CA named Fan as ZH's vice chairman and Finance Director Li Youqiang to the same role at Shenzhen.
Industry analysts have said that Li Zeyuan's stake may be split between CA and the Shenzhen municipal government, which now holds 10% of the airline. It has been reported that the government also is keen to increase its participation ZH. Vice Mayor Zhang Siping noted at the end of last year that the "Shenzhen municipal government will support Shenzhen Airlines, as always, no matter what. It won't change that Shenzhen will remain an independent company and there won't be big layoffs."
by Katie Cantle

[clrblu22]

Web Site: http://www.chinaaviationrecruitment.com (http://www.chinaaviationrecruitment.com/)


Not saying that anyone should use this recruiter just wanted to post it to show that the pay at Shenzhen Airlines is not what it should be. Not even close.

[CFM_56]

China Avation doesn't appear to be recruiting for Shenzhen Airlines. Have you mistaken by Sichuan Airlines (http://www.chinaaviationrecruitment.com/apply_now/pilot_applicant_form.cfm)?

[Captain Falcon]

China Aviation doesn't have any jobs. This is the same guy that runs Climbto350. Most of these jobs do not exist at all and if they do, China Aviation doesn't have the contracts for these positions. I think they just try and gather names in hopes of getting a contract deal.

I wasted a LOT of time trying to go through them. Don't waste yours or take what you read on their website to be accurate.

[bmarley26]

Hi all,
Does anyone know of any good recruitment agency in China?
cheers
Marley

[clrblu22]

"""Web Site: http://www.chinaaviationrecruitment.com (http://www.chinaaviationrecruitment.com/)


Not saying that anyone should use this recruiter just wanted to post it to show that the pay at Shenzhen Airlines is not what it should be. Not even close.""""





I didn't post this for recruitment to Shenzhen, only for information that other airlines are paying more.

[SEBI86]

Hi all, does anyone know much about doing a type rating with active aerospace and their link with shenzen airlines?

[niksmathew24]

Its around 18,000CND

[expatrg]

go to shenzhen airlines and you will have a lot of problems that you can not imagine. Try get the release letter, try change job even in another country, You will see what happens.Ask the guys that left to Dubai about the CAAC papers. Also you can enjoy there make a check ride with 4 check men in sim, and a friendly company police and the best FOs of world.If you have no job , so is a option but if have choice try another company in China. :ugh:

[expatrg]

You forgot about the guy that did not allow a Chinese captain smoke in cockpit, and in his next sim chek that Chinese Captain was his check men and "shoot" him.

[expatrg]

Or you are a Chinese or you are receiving some money .......:D:D:D:D:D

[power3309]

hi I am new here..

and I'd like to ask about

how many capt's nomally renew their contract??

flight background are good?? i.e) f/o help, maintanance, staffs...........

thanks for your help.......

I am very interested in...

[expatrg]

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused::confused::confused::confused: HOW MUCH SHZ IS PAYING TO YOU? HAHAHAHAH:D:D:D:D

[expatrg]

:{:{:{:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

[XINHUEI]

Hi guys...


I am pilot without experience ATPL frozen (160hrs), anybody know what can i do if i want to be part of Shenzhen Airlines ? Who know which is the minimun requierements for a First officer or Second Officer ?

[expatrg]

:sad: thats is SHZ:{:ugh::E
Subject: Penalty Notification




Penalty Notification of a Flight Delay Event Caused by
Personal Reason

On 31th May, ZH9095 was supposed to takeoff at 14:35. After arriving
Shenzhen base on flight ZH9889 from Beijing, Captain XXXX supposed that he had completed his schedule day duty and took the company
bus to home. It caused the consequence of changing the captain of ZH9095
and the flight was finally takeoff at 15:03, 33minutes delay.

According flight department 's 《Pilots Performance Appraisal
Regulation》,'Due to any personal reason which cause the flight delay,
there will be 2000yuan penalty for Captain and 1000yuan penalty for First
Officer '. As to this event, there will be 2000yuan penalty for Captain
XXXXXXX.
I am not cap xxxx, Shenzhen air sent this email for all pilots without xxxx


Flight Department
2010-6-4

[Tropical Rainforest]

As a captain,he should be responsible for all the passengers. So I will not agree with the conduct of the captain. Are you a responsible person and will you agree with him or do like him?

[davca]

Ive been told CAAC medical EXAM its very hard to pass
its that true ?
What exams do they run...blood..ECG what Im hearing about medical of three days.....

[Fareastdriver]

If you use the Search Function you will find several posts describing the Chinese medical. To save you time here is one.


Medical exam:
EKG while running (actually its not running, it's walking fast.) on a treadmill. You will be sweating at the end of this test even if you are in decent shape. They are stressing your heart. You'll run in pants (what ever you have on) and socks...no shoes. As time goes by the treadmill inclines.
Blood work (check kidney functions and for cholesterol..please no comments on my poor spelling)
Brain scann...I'm not kidding!
Check reflexes and bone structure (squats and look at you in your underwear, check hands).
Eyes (if you wear contacts or glasses...no problem just make sure you bring them..bringing a prescription will only confuse the doctors)
Hearing test
Ultrasound your kidneys and look for gallstones (this is the one that seems to be tricky....if you have them, you fail and need to get them removed...if you have small ones or just a slight chance of having them later....you'll need to remove them).
Just my opinion; If your a drinker and a smoker...overweight or not in the best of health, do something to get yourself in better shape. Stop smiking and drinking for a time, start running or walking.

The Chinese, smoke, drink and dont eat healthy; you on the other hand are going to be put through a screening that is like nothing you've ever seen before....why give them any reasons to fail your medical. They will flagg anything and most of the time, it's for no good reason.

[cameltoad]

Far East Driver hit it pretty much right on the head. The Long and Short of it is if there is anything wrong with you they will find it, they might find something that isn't even there! On the plus side what they do find they will let you get it corrected if it is something that is fixable, i.e. high blood psi., kidney stones, gall stones. And yes it is irritating to see them smoke, drink, and eat anything under the sun while you get berated for the least little abnormality. I was given hell about my blood psi. and there was not a problem, the problem was the CAAC cuff could not fit around my arm and it gave them crazy readings, plus CAAC doctors are possibly not fully qualified docs so that doesn't help the situation either. But from what I have seen if you stick it out and do their crazy process they will eventually pass you.

[Droste]

I wonder, has anybody saw the Advertising Director, Ansen Chew lately?

[AirbusHeathen]

Subject： Reminding of Obeying Relevant Rules During The World Cup Period

All pilots:

The 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa is coming soon. We believe that lot of pilots are looking forwards to this international tournament.

Flight department reminds all on-duty aircrews as follows: This international tournament is held on the South Africa which is located on GMT+2 and has 6 hour time difference with Beijing’s GMT+8. When enjoying all the wonderful tournaments, we hope all the on-duty aircrews can strictly control the rest time and obey the drinking regulations, to ensure you have enough energy for safety fly. We hope there is no overmuch discussion which is irrelevant with flight in the cockpit. In the meantime, flight department will strictly inspect the aircrew’s previous on-duty and give punishment to those who disobey the rest regulation.

CAAC will also inspect different flight operation stages of head company、outstations、bases and sub-companies during the world cup period.

[joethechinesepilot]

i'm here for the money...but if you can't fly then maybe you have to worry...i collect my money and mind my own business....if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen...I hate whiny, pu$$y ass crybabies that want to point fingers and bitch like women all the time...either drink more beer and get laid more often, or have a nice warm cup of STFU.

[expatrg]

or you are chinese, then have to be in china forever. I so sorry for you

[V4Zombie]

Enjoy the place and stay. Forever...

[kaptaum77]

hi you can send email for captain Kieling. He s a manager of foreing pilots in Shenzhen Airlines
[email protected]

see you

[tonker]

I have heard a contract going in the region which i believe is Shenzhen Airlines, can anyone give me any sort of info regarding current wages etc for an FO?

Regards Tonker

[madevi]

Does anybody could give me information about working in Viet nam Airlines, way of living, cost, payment, treatment at the foreigners Pilots, living there with the Family, please, send me comments, l will be waiting answers, comments and advises,
nice regards.

Cesar:rolleyes:

[JotaJota]

viet nam Airlines question
Does anybody could give me information about working in Viet nam Airlines, way of living, cost, payment, treatment at the foreigners Pilots, living there with the Family, please, send me comments, l will be waiting answers, comments and advises,
nice regards.

Cesar:rolleyes:
Cesar, haz un search y encontraras TODA la informacion que buscas.

Do a search and you'll find ALL the info that you are looking for.

This is the SZ thread hermano!!!

[khomekuh]

I've been flying for Shenzhen Airlines for a couple of years. The salary package is not bad but living in China is quite hard for westerns! We must have a lot of patience and good stomach!:*
There are some tricks in their contract. The salary is paid only after 15 days and Shenzhen Airlines has been delaying the salaries quite often. The living cost is increasing in China. They have a punishment policy sometimes unfair!
be careful !:ugh:

[JotaJota]

And you are Chinese... Cool!

Interesting comments from a national!!!

Thanks for the info.

[khomekuh]

This is an e-mail sent from a Shenzhen Airlines Captain to the management of Foreign Pilots Dept. on February 2012!:D:ok:


Dear Foreign Pilots Section
Recently I heard many comments about the new rules that affects our daily operation and please I want an official confirmation about this (I couldn't go to any of the safety meetings I was flying and now on vacations).

Rules that I understand are already in use now:

1- If you have an altitude bust, you are FIRED.
2- If you have a lighting strike, you are FIRED.
3- If you have a bird strike, you are FIRED.
4- If you have a hard landing, you are FIRED.
5- If you have a lost of communications, you are FIRED.

I don't know if there are any other new reasons to be immediately fired from the company that I should be aware?, Donald Trump will love to work for Shenzhen Airlines! (more on Donald Trump The Apprentice (U.S. TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apprentice_%28U.S._TV_series%29))

About the previous 5 reasons to be FIRED.

1- Living in a dangerous neighborhood…

Many people in this world has to live in dangerous neighborhoods with thieves, drug dealers and killers and have to adapt to that because they don't have other options, but that doesn't means they like that or that the dangerous conditions are right….

In a normal flight in China you will do around 10 to 15 steps climbing to reach your flight level, in Japan you do 2 steps, in Taiwan you do 2 steps, in Seoul you go straight to your flight level, in Kuala Lumpur was 2 steps too…..so in China you make between 10 to 15 steps more going up, and going down than the rest of the world…. That means in each flight 20 to 30 changes in altitude, that will be 16 to 26 times more than in a normal flight in most countries in the world…and usually with the word "expedite" "Rate of descend, climb 2000 ft or more" etc….

Yes I have to adapt to risk my job 20 to 30 times per flight, in a 4 days leg day I will be risking loose my job 80 to 120 times a day in an altitude selection mistake, yes is China, I adapt, I like it? no…the person living in a dangerous neighborhood likes it??

Flying in meters, China is one of 2 countries in the world flying in meters, the other Russia will convert to feet next year making China the only country flying in the world in meters…yes we adapt, that means is right?

And of course we have the "excellent" English of the controllers….

WE are humans and we make MISTAKES which means not in purpose and mistakes will keep happening no matter how big is the punishment…

2- About the lightings.

This is the lists of the known gods of Thunder, since my name is not on the list (and I don't recognize anybody from Shenzhen Airlines in the list) I inform I don't have the power to control the weather, thunders, lightings, etc….so if I cannot avoid a storm for more than 20 miles (almost a miracle in China to get a deviation of 20 miles…) I will just turn back to my departure airport or any suitable airport in the area, of course we are going to be the safest airline in the world, in bankruptcy…

More information about the Thunder and Lighting gods in Wikipedia List of thunder gods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thunder_gods) (maybe can be included in the GOM)

List of thunder gods

Ancient Near East
Teshub (Hurrian mythology)
Adad, Ishkur, Marduk (Babylonian-Assyrian mythology)
Hadad (Levantine mythology)
Eurasia
Tarhunt (Hittite/Luwian mythology)
Zeus (Greek Mythology)
Brontes (Greek mythology)
Jupiter, Summanus (Roman mythology)
Taranis (Pan-Celtic); Ambisagrus, Leucetios, (Gaulish mythology)
Þunraz (Germanic mythology; Anglo-Saxon Þunor, German Donar, Norse Þórr)
Thor (Norse mythology)
Perun (Slavic mythology)
Perkunas (Baltic mythology)
Perendi (Albanian mythology)
Gebeleizis (Dacian mythology)
Zibelthiurdos (Thracian mythology)
Ukko or Perkele (Finnish mythology)
Horagalles (Sami mythology)
Indra, Parjanya (Hindu mythology)
Aplu (Etruscan mythology)
Atämshkai (Moksha mythology)
East Asia
Lei Gong (Chinese mythology)
Ajisukitakahikone, Raijin (Raiden-sama, Kaminari-sama), Tenjin (kami) (Japanese mythology)
Susanoo (Japanese mythology)
Americas
Thunderbird (Native American mythology)
Xolotl (Aztec and Toltec mythology)
Chaac (Maya mythology)
Apocatequil (Incan mythology)
Cocijo (Mexican mythology)
Aktzin (Mexican mythology)
Jasso (Mexican mythology)
Haokah (Lakota mythology)
Tupã (Guaraní mythology, Brazil)
Tunupã, Thunupã (Bolivian and Peruvian mythology)
Salar (Aztec mythology)
Africa
Egyptian mythology)
Shango (Yorùbá mythology)
Oya (goddess of hurricanes, consort of Shango Yoruba mythology)
Azaka-Tonnerre (West African Vodun/Haitian Vodou)
Mulungu
Xevioso (alternately: Xewioso, Heviosso. Thunder god of the So region)
Sango (Nigerian mythology)
Oceania
Polynesian mythology
Haikili (Polynesian mythology)
Tāwhaki (Polynesian mythology)
Kaha'i (Polynesian mythology)
Te Uira (Polynesian mythology)
Micronesian mythology
Nan Sapwe (Pohnpeian mythology)
Australia
Namarrkun (Aboriginal mythology)

3- About bird strikes

I am an Airbus Captain, not Dr. Doolittle (more information about Dr. Doolittle Doctor Dolittle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Dolittle)) so in my resume I didn't include that I am able to communicate with birds or any other kind of animal! so if somebody reports birds in the area I will just not take off, or go around and divert to the closest airport without birds to avoid the possibility of get fired (by the way once I hit a bird at 23.000 ft…try to avoid that!).

4- About the Hard Landings

Airbus and Boeing recognizes Hard Landings only reported by the pilot and to be a hard landing must have some kind of structural damage, the company has this information requested to Boeing to save one of his Chinese Captains from loose his license, strange is the only case that I know that Boeing information (were clearly states that you cannot use the QAR to define a hard landing) was used to save one of the company pilots, this information is never used to protect a Foreign Captain (from a non existent hard landing), actually Shenzhen Airlines never had a hard landing! (or there is any record of damage due to a hard landing?).

5- About lost of communications

I understand that the periods of time to consider the communication is lost have been reduced to a very short periods of time, so again my procedures will be every 2 minutes request a radio check during all the flight, I guess if all Shenzhen Airlines flights do the same the communications will be blocked to other airplanes, makes sense?

In every flight I can loose my job around 20 to 30 times in a possible altitude mistake, 1 time per landing with a possible hard landing that doesn't really exists, the complete duration of the flight with a possible loss of communications, depending on the weather a few more times with a lighting strike, and depending on the migration patterns of the birds a few more due to a bird strike…..as you can imagine I will not be flying very relax and probably due to my high level of stress I will make many mistakes including the ones on this list and probably many others, I guess Shenzhen Airlines should be ready to have the worst period of mistakes ever due to the level of stress and fatigue the flight crews are facing now.

And of course since my possibilities to get fired are now increased in like 500% if not more I am starting to search for a new job, since I have a family and responsibilities I guess I am not the only one and Shenzhen Airlines soon will be very happy to don't have pilots at all to make mistakes, my Co Pilot told me the other day that he don't want to fly anymore….that he prefers to wash dishes than keep flying in this way….(and he is Chinese…)

Have a nice day.

[Turkpilot]

This is fantastic. About time someone writes to mangement on this crap!

[Flying Tiger 74]

You believe wrong no foreign FOs in SZ Airlines except 2 in exceptional conditions...

[khadinorte]

Hi there!
I was thinking about going for screening with them but now I will think about it.Please confirm this information if you are so kind because I won't loose my time if it is like you just wrote...

Thanks a lot

[shekou]

Guys,
If you want to come to China on the 737 then Xiamen airlines is the best deal, don't even look at Sza. However, if you insist on coming to Sza then you should talk to someone working here. I've been here for some time and can say that most of the posts here are total BS. It would be a mistake to believe everything you read on this thread.

[khomekuh]

Hey! be smart !
Don't come to Shenzhen Airlines! := The punishment policy is disgusting! There are better options in China! Much better packages! I've been working her for almost two years. I'm crazy to get out of here! Just waiting for my second year bonus!
Another senior foreign captain was fired in March! He had an altitude overshooting with the clear participation of the ATC controller!
Another foreign capt was punished for delaying 15 seconds to arrive in the company (yep fifteen) believe or not!
And so on and so on....hypocrisy. Liars!
:=

[Shekou2]

KOMKU!!
The salary is paid only after 15 days and Shenzhen Airlines has been delaying the salaries quite often.

In the last few years, my salary got late ONCE by 1day.Apologise by the company.!it was due to the bank of china.
Since then it has been paid on the 14th....eventhough the contract states pay day is 15th.
All airlines i worked for before pay on the 15th of next month.,how about your previous airlines?

If you have a personal agenda against the airline...dont involve stating erroneous info as it will mislead pilots in their decision.

Feedback from Mr. Wu Kewei, the vice president of Shenzhen Airlines

Dear all captains:

Recently, I received two emails written by 2 foreign captains in which they concern about different view of points of management issues including the WX radar training on safety meeting, improper “risk bulletin” issued constantly, company’s analysis about the safety status with the foreign captains’ crew and the risk of being a future flight instructor. I would like to show my opinion as below.

As you know, do in Rome as a Romans do is the basic fact in culture communication, and even for the Chinese pilots. They all need to try their best to acclimatize themselves to the CAAC controlled operation environment. The safety culture in Shenzhen Airlines is only the reflection of CAAC safety culture, and our company can never disobey the CAAC requirements to satisfy the request from part of our pilots no matter that they are Chinese pilots or foreign pilots. We will never permit our safety criteria going below CAAC’s relevant criteria otherwise Shenzhen airlines will receive lots of extra limitations for daily flight operation. What we can guarantee is that all of the safety management criteria are consistent and fair for both the Chinese pilots and foreign pilots.

Season Change Training is to meet the requirement of CAAC. It is a kind of study, at the same time it is a kind of review. At the turn of seasons, we organize such training in order to offer a platform for pilots to exchange experience and improve your flight skills. It is essentially a good chance why don’t you complain it as useless and unnecessary thing. As my personal opinion, I do not think anybody has full understanding of knowledge for everything on flight. There is a Chinese saying, The Earth is limited, and the knowledge is infinite. It's especially true right now on flight.

Investigation and providing suggestions on risk resources of aviation unsafe events happened involving our company or other companies is the core of SMS management. SMS is a global and international system and it is not created by CAAC. So, we’d better have a proper recognition of risk bulletin and suggestions. We should regard them as one part of safety management. They are information sometimes as well as operation guide. You do not need to worry anything if you do things as the manual says. Of course if the bulletin is not edited in a proper way, we should make it better by improving our working effort.

For the error or deviation happened during flight, we are changing our philosophy or idea that we will make actively a differential treatment for different events. We are considering giving light penalty to the ones whose error is relatively minor or they may be exempted from penalty under the CAAC penalty standards. It is not as terrible as our foreign pilots' description to be an instructor.

In 2011, we learned one fact that unsafe events rate of foreign captains is obviously higher than the rate of Chinese captains. Objectively speaking, operation environment and other factors are some parts of reasons at the same time I wish all of our captains can think about the following doubts:

1: Are there any subjective reasons?

2: Are there some ways that we can do to make the flight safety better?

3: For any unsafe events caused by the objective reason, does anybody need to take the responsibility?

4: Is there anything that we can do to change the situation?

4: What is your solution about handling these events?

5: If you were the boss, what would be your intention?

6: If the same rate (rate of unsafe events between local crew and over sea crew) is detected in other country, what will happen?

Training or teaching after events happened is a good way to prevent it happening again. When we knew it, we will do it. Using administration measurements is only to raise your awareness of unsafe events. It is a kind of method not our aim at all. As long as you strengthen the awareness, you will not lay your finger on red line of human factor error.

I heartily welcome all of you joining in Shenzhen Airlines and your participation on safety operation is what I want to see and what our company needs. I hope we show understanding to each other and we work together happily.* *


--
Have a good day!
Best Regards!
Yours,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Foreign Pilot Subsection
Flight Department
Shenzhen*Airlines
China

[AirbusHeathen]

Subject: SZA Captain’s Safety Responsibility Agreement
Dear Captains,

To promote professionalism and sense of responsibility, to maintain safety awareness and solid regulation concept, CAAC requires all captains should sign Captain’s Safety Responsibility Agreement. Please come to our office to sign it. Different opinions are welcomed.

Regards,

Daisy


SZA Captain’s Safety Assurance Responsibility Agreement

Here, I _________________________________ as Boeing/Airbus Captain, sincerely declare that as a Shenzhen Airlines captain, I will follow GOM chapter 3.3.1 “Captain’s Duty and Responsibility” strictly and try my best to guarantee flight safety. At the same time, I will highly maintain my professionalism, closely keep high responsibility and strong safety awareness, strictly follow company regulation and discipline, and continuously improve my flight skills.

Meanwhile, I will accept penalty provision cause by my own human error on aviation safety, flight scheduling and administration according to issued manuals of Shenzhen Airlines.

Sincerely yours,

Responsible Manager Signature:
Date:

--
Have a pleasant day!
Best Regards!
Yours,

Foreign Pilot Subsection
Flight Department
Shenzhen Airlines
China

[V4Zombie]

:=:=:=:=:= AVOID AVOID AVOID, as long as you have other options!

What you read in previous posts are basically true and they are just the tip of the iceberg. 16 hrs duty days (14+2) and you are expected to go beyond (Chinese crew regularly do so), weird procedures, punishment policy and the total ignorance and disrespect of their foreign captains. Things getting worse since Air China has taken over the majority share. Lot of guys leaving this year.
The city is liveable, the package is good, but there are plenty of better options in China now.

[chinapilot223]

Are they really enforcing a punishment program contrary to ICAO standards? Is QAR still being used against pilots contrary to ICAO standards? Do FO's fly the airplane based on QAR data that they know to be analyzed?

Does Shenzhen Airlines still misinterpret QAR data as being pilot error? Totally disregarding mitigating circumstances?

Are the FO's still hand flying the airplane when you, as Captain, are flying?

Do Foreign Captains still rank below Chinese FO's? (Chinese FO's disregard you, as Captain, until they verify your actions with management)

Been there done that, got the license to prove it.

[mignolo]

Hi, I am looking for info coming directly from expat captains currently working in SZA.
Will appreciate any feedback or PM

[joethechinesepilot]

dude
have u read these posts at all.......at least 30 chinese captains have resigned this year...they'd rather sit at home for two years and work somewhere else...but it is different for everybody....some ex pats are leaving when their contract is up...but for reasons known to them.....you might as well come to a screening..what have you to lose and get you a foot massage and a happy ending...
cheers mate

[mignolo]

I will strictly follow your advice;)

[scankey]

Flight International had an article about the airline in 6-12 November issue.

[Oceanic815Pilot]

Mignolo,

I left SZA IN August after almost four years. Your mileage may vary depending on expectations. PM me if you'd like one persons opinion. Personally, I'm glad to not be working there but I miss parts of living in China.

[USMCProbe]

Before I left at the end of my contract, I tried to get a no accident letter and a no criminal record letter. The airline I worked for was based in PEK. I was based in a different city/province. I applied to the PSB (Public Security Bureau) in my province. They told me my company is in PEK, and my work visa was issued in PEK. I have to do it in PEK. I tried at the PSB in PEK, they said I cannot get one as I don't live in PEK. So no No Criminal Record Letter.

I asked my company about getting the CAAC to make a no Accident letter. They said "sorry we don't do that".

If you are a career contract pilot, working in China might make it difficult to get another contract job.

[Suvarnabhumi]

Getting a reference or a no incident/accident letter etc out of a HR department of a Chinese airline is like trying to get blood out of a stone. Even the CAAC will deny other countries Aviation Authorities standard licence validation requests.

In fact the HR department see you as their Slave, they OWN you.

They are only interested in selling their Slaves to other Slave owners.

The local chinese Slaves, lifers, spending their whole life in servitude, and seeing a foreigner "escape the system" and make it through the perimeter fence, neither provides them a little cheer or even envy. Indeed they know nothing else, resulting in no visible emotion, opinion, feeling, or reaction, and better for them to keep it that way.

It numbs their pain.

[tcas69]

""Getting a reference or a no incident/accident letter etc out of a HR department of a Chinese airline is like trying to get blood out of a stone. ""

While it may be difficult or impossible in many airlines I had no problems when switching from MU to HU and got a letter of recommendation after finishing my job in China.
Validation of hour, however crude, was never a problem.

[dormyyy]

Hey guys...i am coming in Shenzhen for the screening. I was really happy until reading your last post.

By your experience seems impossible to leave SZA after the contract because of the missing of the validation letter and the hrs confirmation. IS IT TRUE?

How the expat. Pilots have been able to be hired in other companies without them?

Is there in China a good company to work with?

Is it true that they fire you for

Altitude bust
Birdstrike
Lightning

And so on?

Thank you for the cooperation

[Guam360]

you get fined for those things, thus do not get the bonus...

[USMCProbe]

The CAAC did a hardover on the lightning strike issue about a year and a half ago. They threatened, in writing, to fire expats for lightning strikes. Like lots of things, maybe it went away. Or not.

Birdstrikes are not an issue as the Chinese eat any uncaged bird they see or steal the cage, then consume the bird within.

Altitude busts? Very serious everywhere. China it would be exceptionally dangerous as all the aircraft are confined in very narrow corridors.

[khomekuh]

Don't come to Shenzhen Airlines, unless you're starving!

[captjns]

khomekuh is pleading... Don't come to Shenzhen Airlines, unless you're starving!

Why not? Friends from former carriers are quite happy there. They get by the politics and other BS associated with the airline, and get on with their lives.

[USMCProbe]

Concur with Captjns. It is still china, but it has been decent the last few years there.

[khomekuh]

Your friends are probably starving...

[captjns]

Your friends are probably starving...

Quite the contrary. Eating very well in expat village.:ok: