:: optimised flightplanning ::

[max payload]

Hi all,

My intended topic must have been visited many times before, however, allow me to try again with an eye to being up-to-date on the various developments.

Long-range flight planning, through tracks, across Europe and other areas with restrictions, dynamically CI optimised (4D), random optimised routing with automatic route compliance, workable interface, etc.
Oh, and a supplier with great and timely support, easily configurable input and output parameters, and partnering with whom will not break the bank...

Of the main suppliers out there, which one comes closest?
Let's see... Lido, Sita, f:wz, Air Data, Nav Tech, EDS, Jeppesen, etc.

Cheers- Max :ok:

[HHI OPS]

Hey Max,

I would use LIDO for it, since it works very stabilised and the result if often very good, even for longhaul flights with ETOPS procedure for example :)

[Lauderdale]

Hehe,

In the nicest possible way.....location Hamburg? And you recommend Lido? What a surprise..................

We will discuss in more detail tomorrow!

[HHI OPS]

Yeah,

but we don't use it.
But I know LIDO from KLM,LTU and Lufthansa, and I think is better as the program we use here.

[ralle72]

except the "minor" bugs (nat crossing in m.75- with a 767!!! tempo groups in wx forecasts are not considered in wx suitability checks, )
i´m quite happy to work with lido:ok:

[HHI OPS]

Haha :D
Why not M.075 over the sea -> ETA + 3 Hours :D

[merlinxx]

How many of you use/have used Jetplan? Honest comments only, no scabby third hand comments appreciated, this is for active CFP system users please, both dispatchers and pilots.

[ShinjukuHustler]

HI,

I used both Jetplan.com and Jet planner in a previous company. I found it quite good. I liked the web based application alot and the comms centre is also quite useful.

It has been a few years since I had my hands on it so I dont know what changes they have made.
They used to have a very snappy HTML application that was good for tweaking.
Jet planner has a nice map display and some crews like the print out as it can show prevailing wind barbs en route.

Thing is though, I hear alot of companies are ditching Jepps in favour of other providers, in fact they recently lost one of their major customers to the guys in Scottsdale.
All in all it's not bad but it's expensive. The FBO and corporate crowd like the web application.

Hustle on..

[mutt]

in fact they recently lost one of their major customers to the guys in Scottsdale.

Not sure if you are talking about us, but we didnt change the flight planning system to the guys in Scottsdale as it isnt as good as the Jeppesen system at this stage.
But Scottsdale are working on it :):)

Has anyone used FWZ?

Mutt

[greuzi]

LIDO.
No I don't live in Hamburg

Runs an awful lot of aircraft around Europe (and afar) very successfully.

[AUSOTS]

Long-range flight planning, through tracks, across Europe and other areas with restrictions, dynamically CI optimised (4D), random optimised routing with automatic route compliance, workable interface, etc.
Oh, and a supplier with great and timely support, easily configurable input and output parameters, and partnering with whom will not break the bank...

First time here but just had to chime in :uhoh:

May I suggest that you talk to Qantas about their experience with Lido and LSY.

rgds

[mutt]

Umm, should i dial 1-800-qantas ??

How about you tell us whats going on?

Mutt

[ShinjukuHustler]

Mr Mutt,

Apologies for jumping the gun on that one, I was told by a lil birdie that it was already in the bag.

It's not a bad system at all, I used it before but our op was tiny in comparison to SV and I believe SV are looking for a fully integrated whole 9 yds system.

Do you think it will go ahead to completion or is that a secret at this point?
Just curious, I understand if u cant divulge.

Rgds,

:)

[veloo maniam]

Guys....I am a little blurr on the terms used..SITA,LIDO...what exactly is it and how does it work for optimised flightplanning? can someone enlighten me. Many thnxs:ok:

[mutt]

It's no secret, when the scottsdale system is considered equal to or better than the Jeppesen system, then there will be a change... but until that time :)

Mutt

[Grasscarp]

In answer to your question Veloo, SITA and LIDO are both companies which provide computerised flight planning system to airlines. If you want to generate a route i.e. let the system make a route for you (rather than fly on a fixed route that you have built and put into the system), then it will look at the airways and any restrictions, RADs, CDRs etc and build the best found for the time of the flight on that day. Flight plans also take into account the winds and the performance of the aircraft and so should give you the optimum route on the day.

[max payload]

Thanks all.

Here's the future as I see it:

The daily flightplan load is auto-generated, fed by the flight schedule; the FPS auto-reads WX, NOTAMS, RAD, etc. and produces FPLs based on found limitations and the usual company criteria (fuel policy, CI, alternate selection policy, MEL, statistical additional fuel, statistical taxi fuels, etc.).
Auto-check with CFMUs for instance (just to be sure), calculations NOT based on tables, laterally and vertically optimised for winds, temps and enroute charges, random routing of course (manual route building disappeard by the end of the last century, didn't it?).

Where defined parameters are exceeded, Flight Dispatch is notified and is then required to take action, otherwise no input is required.
Fuel prices are updated constantly, as are the sector-specific costs-of-time, resulting in optimised route-specific CIs.

The process is first done 24 hours prior to the actual flights and relevant information is auto-distributed to key stakeholders in the OCC such as Flight Dispatch, Load Control, Commercial, Crew Control, Movement Control, etc. in order to tweak where required and enter an operational day being aware of possible weak points in the daily flight program.

The same process is repeated on the actual day of operation, and this time Flight Dispatch releases, resulting in auto-send to remote briefing (email, print, hotel, airport, agent or ACARS). Not many flight dispatchers on shift either.

Where blocktimes deviate from schedule (expected departure delay, required ETA, etc.) schedule updates auto-generate new FPLs with newly optimised CIs resulting in newly required flight times.
New CI calculations may change cruise levels, chosen routing, etc, as impact of winds, temps, enroute charges versus the cost of time/cost of fuel equation have a different impact.

As the FPS philosophy is about presenting information rather than being an input-output tool, it is simplicity itself- an uncluttered dashboard providing intuitive graphical feedback on a flight, a fleet, a sector, etc. with intuitive interactive input tools to manipulate output (e.g. sliders).
Several layers provide the usual weather, geographical and other information of course.

One can go further and integrate FPS, DCS and other more-or-less stand-alone systems (fuel MI, performance, NAV, comms) as modules into an integrated environment, providing easy access to information by users across the flight support/execution spectrum.

Dynamic (4D) CI calculations; only f:wz comes close I think.
A very large US airline selected this system after a 2-year market evaluation.

V&L optimised versus non-optimised flightplans (RPLs being the worst example) will save an airline millions in fuel; optimised fuel load, on-time arrivals, optimised delay-cost management, the list goes on.

Graflite, Lido, Skytrack, JetPlan, etc., even after manually entering a new ballpark CI value (guessing its effect on flighttime), only the cruise speed changes, routes are not newly vertically & lateraly optimised. I could be wrong there- feedback please.

Coffee, anyone?

Cheers- Max :ok:

[amorski]

Hi Gents!!!

I would appreciate if somebody can help me with this:
I work in small airline having three business jets and we are planning to use programm for flight plan calculating...
Which one would you advise to use for our situation?
Thank you in advanse!!!

[max payload]

Hi Amorski,

It all depends on how you use your fleet, and the market you use it in.
You mention airline, and business jets- sounds contradictionary. How large is the operation going to be? Where are you going to be in 5 years' time?

Some of the systems I described will accommodate a regular airline only, as on-the-fly changes to routes, airports, etc. simply take too long to set up. Other systems have a built-in flexibility to easily accommodate operations to and from lake beds, off-airways, remote strips, etc.

If you're keen on squeezing every drop out of your operation and know your cost indices, then I would suggest a cost-index optimzed system- make sure that the projected gains in cost optimization are more than what these systems will cost you.

If your crews are going to slap on tons of additional fuel because they're not familiar with the airports they're flying into (typical ad-hoc operation) then don't bother too much with an accurate system, anything will do then.

A new FPS must suit your intended operation, and can be used as a tool to lift your operation to a higher level, provided that the inputs are correct and are monitored.

Hope this helps a bit.

Max :ok: