Boeing 757 : P&W vs RR

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Just been having a discussion with a fellow poster about Delta's revival of their ATL-EDI service for Summer 08, using B757s :eek:.

I guess that, at 8hrs 50mins scheduled block time, this will be one of the longest B757 routes anywhere. Doing some research, their B757s are expected to be the ex AAL/TWA machines, fitted with winglets, and I believe running PW2037s.

My questions are, as SLF, to anyone who might know:

1. Why has the RR powered 757 outsold the P&W version, if the P&W engine gives slightly better range,
2. Have the Delta machines been modified in any other way to get more performance, e.g. additional tanks, further reduced seating, etc?

[Check Airman]

My guess for question 1 is that it's because the RR engines are more powerful than the PW's.

[Joetom]

The RR took most of the sales I think.

Of interest, the RR 211 535 E4 I think they call it has one of the lowest IFSD rates of any engine.

Of interest, the RR took very very few of the 767 sales.

[OutOfRunWay]

There's very few RR powered 747 of all types around, too

[neil armstrong]

Best to stay away from the RR535C power 757 ,but as far as i know there is only 1 left in pax config.

Neil

[RingwaySam]

Not to sure but Northwest operates flights from Detroit to Dusseldorf and Amsterdam using 757-200s with PW engines. Which might be around the same distance or maybe abit more.

[mainwheel]

UPS have a mixed fleet of PW's and RR's in their B757's.

Statisticially, i was told by someone in the know in engineering, the RR's far outclass the PW's. Engineering beancounters?

RR also overhaul all their B757 RB211 engines for them.

Can't think of a better engine program for a fleet.

[misd-agin]

PW 37,500 lbs thrust

RR 43,100 lbs thrust :D

Which one would you prefer?

[gone till november]

Joetom

Rolls Royce took roughly 75% of all 757 sales but the total no of engines was roughly half as the US airlines that took the PW's ordered them in big no's.

The E4 version was at one stage the most reliable jet engine with the highest on wing time.

The RB211 524G (i think) took only two orders on the 767 as it was a late player to the game and only BA and it was either Royal Brunei or a Chinese airline that ordered them.

Out of runway

Not quite true. if you look at it in number of operators then yes as only Four to the best of my recollection took them BA CX QF and Air New Zealand plus one or two others i cant remember.

On time

The E4 was chosen by many airlines for its reliability mostly in part to its three shaft design and if i remember correctly at one time it was the ONLY one of the two certified for ETOPS.

Rolls Royce powered 757's are in vogue at the moment as they have a proven ETOPS history and are very reliable. I believe their sfc is a little more than the PW's but have more power (please correct if wrong).

[BelArgUSA]

OutOfRunWay - gone til november -
Re. RR 747-100-200-300-SP...
xxx
Do not forget Saudia on your list... their 747-100s, 200F, 300s and SPs...
I dont know if their 400s are RR...
xxx
Not all BA and QF 747s were initially RR, they started with P&W, until RR became available.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[gone till november]

BelArgUSA

You are of course right. I was referring to the 400's

BA's 100's were PW JT9D's as were most if not all 747 100's

The 200 was the first 747 that RR got onto in the mid to late 70's me thinks (brains getting older and more addled) as did GE with the CF6.

It was at the time in the Guinness (partly responsible for my brains condition:)) Book of Records as the heaviest flying object of which BA was the first to fly.

RR with the 3 shaft design has captured nearly half of all large turbofan sales and almost seen of Pratt from this arena which has had to team up with once great rival GE to form GENx for the A380 and 787.

The RB211 nearly sank RR and almost certainly hindered the L1011's success in thde early 70's but has proven to be winner in the long run.

[BelArgUSA]

gone till november -
xxx
Well, my memory fades at times... age problem... I need brains' viagra...
But yes, RR had terrible problems in the early 1970s...
Nearly killed the L-1011 program for Lockheed.
Mr. Boeing got smart, making all engines available on the 747s...
xxx
I have little experience with old 747-200 with RR power, and yes I like them.
During a layoff from Aerolineas, I flew a RR powered 200 with Southern Winds.
Engines were great, but their maintenance was bad.
Had to shut down one engine twice with them, as precaution.
One was because of oil leak, the other was high oil temperature.
Had to fly the plane on 3 engines from Madrid to Cardiff to get the fix...
The solution was to hire ex-LTU engineers to maintain the engines.
xxx
Funny thing, that Southern Winds 747-200 had RR decals on engines.
Well in view of passengers. Many said - "Really, is RR motors we have...?" -
We said "yes"... proudly saying, "best" and most "expen$ive".
Passengers were impressed by having RR on their (old) charter airplane.
xxx
You see, as pilot, we say P&W requires little precision maintenance.
Engineers can fix an FCU with a hammer and chisel.
CF6s, I flew for a short stint with Cargolux... They were good machines.
Nicer than the P&W as far as power and handling... More maintenance.
RR have excellent reputation, and often higher power.
But you need expert maintenance and sometimes parts are difficult to get.
Saudia hated RR (poor maintenance), and I was told LTU adored them.
xxx
Whatever problems airlines have, are generally because of... maintenance.
I am there to break the toys, and engineers to fix them.
And I hate engineers with a toolbox set, containing only pencil and rubber.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[gone till november]

BelArgUSA

Funny thing, that Southern Winds 747-200 had RR decals on engines.
Well in view of passengers. Many said - "Really, is RR motors we have...?" -
We said "yes"... proudly saying, "best" and most "expen$ive".
Passengers were impressed by having RR on their (old) charter airplane.



I remember seeing in Flight International (when it was worthwhile reading) a RR advert from the passengers seat, looking through a window and seeing an engine with the double R's and the caption reading. "Reasuring Isn't It". A bit tongue in cheek but at the time they were the most reliable.

Haven't flown a RR poweed a/c yet but know many BA engineers who've worked on the 777's GE90's and Trents and have not many kind words about the GE90's and only plaudits for the Trents. Maybe thats why BA changed back to RR.

The 3 shaft design has essentialy meant that RR can develop an engine very quickly and have much commonality accross a fleet. Fantastic for airlines like CX which has both 700 and 800's in its fleet.

In the 70's RR wasnt worth diddly and near closed down but they have been proven right in the long run and must admit when i travel on 777's i do look to see whats getting me there.

Hoped your contrails are clean and CO2 free:ok:

[Piper19]

I work on 757 and have 3 engine type ratings going with that (RB211C and 211E4 and the PW).
The E4 gets my preference. In fact I've never ever had trouble on them. The PW is second, and the RB211C is a dirty little engine. Fan trim balancing problems, oil contamination into bleed ducts, the cowlings never close up like it should, and it makes you deaf during windmilling...

[belloldtimer]

1. FLEET COMMONALITY. IF YOU HAVE A FLEET OF ROLLS POWERED AIRCRAFT, YOU CAN CUT DOWN ON A & P TRAINING, SPARES, ETC.

2. DON'T FORGET BMW HAD SOME PART IN THIS, I DON'T EXACTLY KNOW WHEN THEY CAME ON THE SCENE, BUT EVER SINCE I CAN REMEMBER (TWO OR THREE DAYS....) RELIABILITY NUMBERS HAVE BEEN CITED WITH RB211'S IN VARIOUS ITERATIONS.


:cool:

[barit1]

GTN says: RR with the 3 shaft design has captured nearly half of all large turbofan sales and almost seen of Pratt from this arena which has had to team up with once great rival GE to form GENx for the A380 and 787.

Well, not quite. While Pratt is but a mere shadow of its former dominance in the commercial engine market, the joint venture w/GE is called a GP7200 - and its only application is the A380.

The GENx is GE's own standalone project, and its applications are the 787 and the 747-8. Early on, it was also offered on the A350 - but when the mega-A350 came along, GE chose not to grow the engine that much, so it's off the Airbus table now.

And the CF6 is still in production after 38 years or so; they must be doing something right to still attract customers. :cool:

[gone till november]

Barit1

You are of course right its the GP7200 on the A380 and GenX on the 74/87 my mistake:ouch:

The CF6 is by all accounts a fantastic engine and as you say still around doing its thing.

PW has all but disappeared from the civil scene having to go into partnership with once fierce rivals in order to survive. I think the only a/c that it has a stand alone engine on is the A330 and its Geared Fan in the final stages of development.

BelargUSA

I forgot to mention yesterday that BA was the only airline at one stage to operate all 3 engines on its 747's. When BA bought British Caledonian in the late 80's they already had the 100's with PW JT9D's 200's with RB211's and the BCal 200's came with GE CF6's but were sold quite quickly.

Belloldtimer

BMW came on to the scene with the BR700's (used on the Global Express, GV/G550 and Boeing 717) in the early 90's and as far as i know have little to do with the Trents.

[Torquelink]

BMW don't really have anything to do with aeroengines now inasmuch as they sold their share of the German JV to RR some years ago in exchange for shares in RR itself.

PW also have a stand-alone offering on 777-200/ER/300 as well as the A330 but unlikely there'll be any more sales there.

Torque

[gone till november]

Torque

Didn't know that BMW sold up on BR700's

I dont think that PW has taken an order for the 777's some time as GE and RR have had it to themselves for sometime especially GE with its sole supplier on the 300ER's or LR's or what ever they're called now.

PW does have a stake in the IAE2500 which are doing quite well on the Airbus's

[Torquelink]

Gone,

You're right re PW and the 777.

It's looking likely that the IAE will adopt the PW GTF as the basis for the V2500 replacement which will keep them as a major player in the sub 40k/lb market but it's difficult to see how they will ever get back into high thrust engines in a big way.