Marshalling in the RAF?

[owen purday]

Hello, this is an easy question that I am sure you will be able to answer easily...

Who actually marshalls aircraft in the RAF? Does it fall down to Airmen/woman of any trade do it on a rota basis or how does it work?

Thanks!

Owen

[owen purday]

Sorry if I didnt make it clear enough - I was refering to aircraft marshalling in terms of moving out of the parking position with the marshalling wands.

[kokpit]

Owen,

I think you were plenty clear enough, maybe AIDU just swallowed a facetious pill :rolleyes:

Typically, linies will marshall aircraft, and can be of any aircraft trade, nominally at SAC rank.

However, it is not unusual to see JT's (dying breed), Cpls, Sgts and even Chf Techs marshalling, especially with the numbers the RAF has now fallen to.

It wasn't unknown for SNECs at Lyneham to also empty the bogs (for same reason) ;)

[Rigger1]

Whoever the groudcrew for that particular ‘see off’ are will marshal the aircraft off its parking slot whilst the pilot / aircrew totally ignore them and do what the hell they want to! Well that’s what normally happens. The only major difference is when it’s really bad weather the aircrew make you wait for ever before taxiing and then give you big smiles and laugh as they are nice and warm and dry.

[petermcleland]

This might answer your question :)

http://www.slide.com/r/WFiVLgPwsT9jitM54aH4UvD6wnsdVJOk (http://www.slide.com/r/WFiVLgPwsT9jitM54aH4UvD6wnsdVJOk)

[kokpit]

They can be any trade be it Sooty, rigger or fairy depending who is on the see off crew.

Leckies? I know they are the scum of the earth but they probably deserve a mention.

Possibly that would then equate to all aircraft trades? ;)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

So we don't employ plumbers now then kokpit ? :eek:

[kokpit]

So we don't employ plumbers now then kokpit ?

LOL...... Bo**ox, forgot about the knuckle-scrappers, too many years on Hercs after escaping the fast jet world ;)

[HallamPilot]

AMM's (FLM's in essence, but with smaller bollox and less pay) are nominally used for marshalling and servicing these days.

The trade trained SAC's and the J/T's are consistently dragged off the line back to the trade desk, thanks to 'Lean', redundancies, PVR's etc.

With the advent of the single man servicing, on the flightline you only need one line walker to supervise three bods on three jets.

In the HAS environment, you have the liney and a safety man. Cpl's are not required out in the HAS on some Sqn's.

Bombheads do seem somewhat allergic to Flight Servicings though!

[N Joe]

Happy days as a JEngO on det when I got to marshall aircraft.

Not so happy times when the Flt Sgt caught me in the act, physically removed me from the pan and bollocked the cpl Line Walker for allowing an unqualified person marshall the aircraft.

N Joe

[chippy63]

...or maybe AIDU was having a bit of well deserved sport?

[JamesA]

Go to 'Jet Blast' and check out 'Done for Charity' (currently on page 3). !2 sqn give the rundown, how others do it and how the Brits do it. A good chuckle and done for a good cause. This is the full version already referred to earlier in this thread. Enjoy it.

[phantom menace]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/player/nol/newsid_7170000/newsid_7176500?redirect=7176548.stm&news=1&bbram=1&nbram=1&nbwm=1&bbwm=1

[PTR 175]

"It wasn't unknown for SNECs at Lyneham to also empty the bogs (for same reason)"

That was just to get the Doms money and depriving some poor liney of his 90p/day or what ever the rate is.:)

[Top Right]

Here's an alternative to the other 2 links posted earlier, neither of which I could get to work.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1010823/how_to_marshall_jets/

[The Helpful Stacker]

Its not unknown for stackers and slammers to marshall aircraft too.

Not all aircraft require miles of tarmac to get airborne and those chosen few who serve on Tactical Supply Wing often marshall aircraft.

[Rigger1]

It must be a sign of cost cutting, leaning etc when you let Stackers near an aircraft, let alone marshal it - that's just asking for trouble. :ok:

[kokpit]

Its not unknown for stackers and slammers to marshall aircraft too.


Really? News to me, I can only presume they would of course have the appropriate SAMA auths, just in case ;)

[spanners123]

SAMA is no longer with us!:sad:
It's the JAP now.
Just wondering what course the stackers completed to be able to marshall aircraft correctly, how to react in an emergency etc!

[Rossian]

I do remember that in nineteen-hundred-and-frozen-to-death a certain Pilot Officer stacker marshalled an Argosy wingtip into the door of the cantilever hangar at Ballykelly. Cut a very neat slit it did. The incident got airbrushed out when it became apparent that Eng Wg in it's entirety had ommitted to see that there was a movement that day ('twas a bank holiday I think) and that the youth was trying to be helpful and get the a/c offloaded and on it's way quickly. It was one of those "I learned about aircraft handling from that" events.
The Ancient Mariner
PS Those were the days when P.O. and F.O. errors were sorted out by the SNCOs (vide N Joe's earlier post) and junior officers learned a lot the hard way.

[JamesA]

Spanners 123
'What steps do you take in an emergency?'

'Effing great big ones.' I seem to remember was the answer from my days with Auntie Mary.

[spanners123]

JamesA, :D:D:D:D!

[HallamPilot]

Auths were supposed to be granted on that 'quality'(1) system known as JPA. As we know, it's been such a clusterfcuk since it's inception and the bright sparks who bought it 'forgot' to ask them to stick Auths in the package.

Auths are now granted on 'Son of SAMA', a sort of halfway house which involves lots of d*cking about, but ultimately provides a trail to prove the guys and girls have been properly trained and auth'd.


(1) Fit for purpose at minimum cost.

No, really!

[spanners123]

But it's the JAP that states who can have what auths and what level of experience or training (if any) is req'd for said auths . Lets not get started on JPA, we could be here all day!:ok:

[HallamPilot]

It's the TETM (Tornado Engineering Training Manual) that states who can have what auths.;)

On the Tonka fleet, at least.:p

[jez_s]

I remember a Jengo ordering me to marshall a Tornado through a tight spot whilst on detachment, I was very tempted but the idea of telling him to 'bugger off I'm not a liney' won through!! :)

Have marshalled various aircraft around obstructions whilst in sunnier climbs, mainly wingtip clearance & go that way stuff..again I wasn't in an aircraft trade.

[spanners123]

HallamPilot,
Worked the Tonka Fleet for quite a few years (not the last 2 though!) is Tornado Engineering Training Manual something new?

[DHI]

Liney's (any rank, every aircraft trade even plums when I let-em) marshall aircraft, taught in basic trade training (maybe not plums) before being auth'd at unit level.

Ref: JAP then FSW(Eng Wing)order book, then TETM I think you'll find :hmm:, though it has been a while.

Even Geffrees have been known to direct and lock and chock aircraft in their allocated slots/pans etc, TLP springs to mind.......

[HallamPilot]

Authority Levels now replace ranks for engineering authorizations. Authority levels can be found in the JAP.

All F3, GR4 and Common codes are in the TETM. All local authorization codes are controlled by individual MOBs and can be found in MOB Engineering Order Books. Up here they are in AESO's.

The Tornado Engineering Training Manual (TETM) is applicable to all personnel employed on Tornado aircraft operated by Strike (As was) Command units. It's currently on Issue 8, and has been around for a fair while.

Spanners, unless you have had anything to do with examining or authing, you probably didn't even know they existed! Usual Sqn route used to be: Training Cell - S Eng O - SAMA - TM. :8

HP

[The Helpful Stacker]

Really? News to me, I can only presume they would of course have the appropriate SAMA auths, just in case

All personnel on initially joining Tactical Supply Wing are trained up as RMs (Rigger Marshallers) so that they can not only marshall aircraft but they can also prep loads for underslinging and operate as hook-up crew for USL ops. Cpls and above may then be trained up as LPCs (Landing Point Commanders) with some Sgts and above being trained as HHI (Helicopter Handing Instructor). This is all iaw JATE (Joint Air Transport Establishment) regulations.

TSW have been staffed with primarily stackers and slammers for over 30 years and in all those years of operating in support of aircraft in many hostile parts of the world there have been very few flight safety incidents. Although the usual scoffing at non-technical trades being allowed near aircraft is to be expected from the moron minority those who matter appreciate the work and professional attitude of TSW (especially in respect of flight safety) and ultimately that is what is important.

:ok:

[Smudger552]

AMW types (UKBAGS as was) are called apon too.....AT ac anyway....

Smudge

[enginesuck]

oooh get you ... Its hardly rocket science though is it.

[L Peacock]

all fascinating stuff :rolleyes:

[Samuel]

This, surely, is the last word on marshalling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz7FI_S0_NE


Turn your sound up, and enjoy!

[L Peacock]

That clip is so entertaining, I'm surprised it hasn't been posted anywhere on this forum before. :ugh:

[plinkton]

Whoever the groundcrew for that particular ‘see off’ are will marshal the aircraft off its parking slot whilst the pilot / aircrew totally ignore them and do what the hell they want to! Well that’s what normally happens. The only major difference is when it’s really bad weather the aircrew make you wait for ever before taxiing and then give you big smiles and laugh as they are nice and warm and dry.

That’s fairly true, however, I would add some additional rules to the RAF marshalling protocol:

If it is rainy, cold or windy outside, regardless of the location of the marshalling, then only Line Swine will be doing it.
If the weather is fine then only Line Swine will be doing it.
If one TV camera is in the vicinity, only JNCO and above are 'allowed' to marshal.
If multiple TV cameras are in the vicinity, then only SNCO and above are 'allowed' to marshal.
If it is rainy, cold or windy outside and more than one TV camera is in the vicinity, NCO's are 'allowed' to marshal under the (indoor) supervision of at least one SNCO.
If the aircraft to be seen off is a T-bird containing a member of the press, an MP or TV personality, then conditions 1 and 2 do not apply, instead use conditions 3, 4 and 5.
If the aircraft to be seen off is a T-bird contains an attractive female, regardless of weather, additional Linies will be required to 'assist' their colleagues, and will be present even during inclement weather.
If the marshalling is to be done on detachment, then, as a liney you should expect at least one of the following as ‘spectators’.
Wrafs
OC Admin, who has no duties on that particular detachment whatsoever.
OC Police, who has no duties on that particular detachment whatsoever.
OC R & D, who has no duties on that particular detachment whatsoever.
SMO, who has no duties on that particular detachment whatsoever, other than providing condoms (Denmark), anti-emetics (Denmark), and lecturing bored Linies about the danger of playing ‘ HAS Door’ which involves ramming the HAS safety manual under the ‘UP’ lever and attempting to stay on the door in the style of a surfer as it raises.If the detachment is any type of ‘Flag’, such as a Red Flag (Nellis, Nevada, USA) or Maple Flag (Alberta, Canada), then expect the above numbers to be doubled, to include OC ‘s deputies plus add one or two, like OC MT (who is owed a favour for turning a blind eye to a Land-Rover-Hoochin incident six months back) and OC GSE (Who is also owed a favour for turning a blind eye to a Land-Rover-Hoochin incident six months back)...

Additionally, in this case Wrafs will be good looking ones only, however, these good looks are offset due to the fact that additional civilian women are locally available. If the detachment is any type of Tartan Flag (Lossiemouth, Leuchars) then revert to conditions 1 and 2, unless the marshalling is for a Jaguar, returning with a UFCM anywhere on the planet, when additional riggers will be required, then add all of the above, plus at least one fire tender, and OC OPS. On this occasion, none of the OC’s has any purpose, other than to use the time as an opportunity to ask about the next good detachment they will be on.

Personally I found Aircrew generally paid attention to what I wanted them to do...generally.

[kokpit]

Excellent Plinkton, cheers :D

[Green Flash]

So, you have to be Q'd to marshall a particular type of aircraft, right? What happens when one of Bettys Bombers lands at a civvy airport? Does he taxi in as normal and park under the supervision of the (civvy) marshall - ie fireman, ops bod, etc or do his own thing? Who Q's the civvy marshall?

[goudie]

42 posts over a simple every day task , mostly common sense. As I recall you watched the old hands (usually SAC's) and then got on with it. Be interesting to hear, from a pilot or two, what they think on the subject.
Enjoyed Plinktons observations.

[plinkton]

As an SAC I got plenty of practice marshalling, mainly fast jets and some rotary wing. The big problem was at an airfield other than where both the pilot and you were based.

On the line at Coltishall, both of us knew where the aircraft should end up and there were clear lines to follow. You could actually do anything and the pilot knew where to park his kite and achieved this. In fact, we still had to marshal aircraft on their return from NVG sorties at night when the pilots could see where to go but we could barely see them or our hands in front of our faces with all the pan lights off, crazy!

High levels of trickiness come into the equation when dealing with revetments and worse still the mad system of fitting two Jags into a HAS made for one. This was done by spinning one around then winching it in to park at an angle and allowing the other to taxi straight in. Any 6 / 54 SQN. Tirstrup vets of either discipline will know what I mean.

The big problem I see now and saw then was the issue of trust. Marshallers have to know the aircraft will move as they want it and pilots have to trust the marshaller, rather than do what they see fit. Most of the time pilots know where to go and don't need a marshaller.