Orion 08

[Sunk at Narvik]

The RN is sending HMS Illustrious to the Indian Ocean and Far East this month leading a small RN task group. This will form the core of a multi national deployment with French, Spanish and US ships joining in.

My question is- with the "Naval Strike Wing" in Helmand since October, whose Harriers will fly from Lusty? Are any of the three RAF squadrons going along, or will she be showing off Spanish Harriers again?

cheers

Sunk

[Sunk at Narvik]

No takers?

[Green Flash]

India's SHARs, maybe?

[L J R]

Who cares. The Harrier force is doing a busy job at the moment, so they don't have to show that they can defend some piece of salt water.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

This deployment was also discussed on this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298703).

If the Sea Harrier was still in service (discussed here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98152)) we wouldn't be in this situation where we struggle to find jets to embark. It would also make the task goup more impressive.

At least they will have six Merlins, the first time that number have been deployed together.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

A Flag waving jolly cruise, for the coastal defence force(marines excl).:E

All its good for if your honest.

[Oggin Aviator]

F n F ...... If you knew anything about the deployment, which I doubt, you would realise although not directly in the line of fire as so many others are, it will still be hard work for all concerned.

When she returns Lusty will have done something like 240 days away over the preceeding year, which I would hazard is at least on a par if not a lot more than any of our light blue bretheren. As for L J R's comment, just shows how naive he or she is :mad:.

Details of which Squadrons are embarking and when should not really be discussed here Sunk, unless they are released in the open press. I notice you are involved in a similiar thread on the warships forum.

[Navaleye]

Oggin,

I think the question was more along the lines of "Are their going to be any UK Harriers?" than than which ones. :E

Don't expect much of a fixed wing airgroup if she's away for 6 months.

[Oggin Aviator]

OK, the answer is, after this year, it could be anyone !!

[Ivan Rogov]

Oggin, when someone joins the Navy don't they expect to spend lots of time away on ships/boats, isn't that a fundamental aspect of job?
I'm not realy interested in interservice sniping, granted 240 days for one deployment sounds tough, but most of us are breaching harmony figures and have been for many years.

[Oggin Aviator]

Valid point, though I guess anyone joining the Services these days can expect to spend a long time away.

[minigundiplomat]

Pointless thread by a PR obsessed RN.

I am going on exercise next month, does anyone know who will be making the sandwiches?

[Sunk at Narvik]

Christ on a bike :yuk:

Got to say I'm a bit speechless

cheers

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Pointless thread by a PR obsessed RN.

But it was started by SaN, not the RN! As for pointless, you could say that about most PPRuNe threads if they don't interest you!

Illustrious and her group will be taking part in Maritime Security Operations (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.6006), which ARE part of the war on terror.

[minigundiplomat]

I spent 11 weeks on illustrious as part of the 'war on terror' several years ago.

As far as I could tell, we floated a round a bit showing willing. Not exactly war winning stuff.

As soon as British Military assistance was requested (by that point aboard Ocean) The CH47 flew off, and the RM were disembarked at the nearest port that would accept them.

Ocean and the CHF contribution floated home. Only the RN would send a Naval task force to a landlocked country....or is Singapore getting a bit out of hand?

[Jackonicko]

"If the Sea Harrier was still in service (discussed here) we wouldn't be in this situation where we struggle to find jets to embark. It would also make the task goup more impressive."

The reason that there wouldn't have been a struggle is that you'd have had surplus jets floating around that didn't have a real job of work to do. A jet that might have been worth keeping on 'just in case' and for contingencies, but that could not be justified in today's harsh financial climate.

Today's naval aviators don't have time for pointless, lengthy, flag waving jollies on the boat just at the moment, any more than do their RAF colleagues in JFH, because, having binned the Jag, failed to exploit F3's A-G/SEAD/recce capabilities and failed to bring forward Typhoon's A-G capabilities quickly enough, the Harrier force has a real war-fighting job to do - a job which is, incidentally, more important than making a f*cking task group "look more impressive".

And a task that the sole RN Harrier squadron is doing rather well, adding to its laurels, and proving rather more 'essential' than it did for most of its time flying your beloved SHars.

Air-to-mud from land-based airfields may not be as glamorous as air-to-air from a carrier, but it is what is needed now.

[hulahoop7]

Typical response from the journo..

Yes the Harriers are doing a good job in Stan, but the UK should also be able to afford to properly protect a task group going East.

[Green Flash]

but the UK should also be able to afford to properly protect a task group going East.

From whom? (in the Indian Ocean). Not sh!t stirring, genuinly interested.

[Sunk at Narvik]

Ok, I'm not a "PR obsessed RN" person. I have no connection with the RN whatsoever- just an interested layman/taxpayer.

The ignorance displayed by some posters here is breathtaking, as is the prejudice against the RN.

I'll know better than to ask a simple question in future.

Cheers lads- covered yourselves in glory, well done.:D

[Biggus]

As I type this there are 19 entries on this thread.

4 from Sunk at Narvik - an RN interested layman.
3 from two other ex naval civillians, presumably still interested in the RN
3 from a current naval aviator, presumably interested in the RN.

That leaves 9 entries from people whose background I am not totally familiar with. No doubt these are the people who are 'covering themselves with glory' and 'prejudice against the RN'. Well I do know that one of those contributors is on SH, and regularly in a sandy place - covering himself in glory, or no doubt as he would say, just doing his job. These people are busy fighting one of the two wars we are currently engaged in, and not too fussed about what sits on a naval carrier on what they consider a jaunt to the Far East (would you like to post a list of the proposed port visits, both locations and dates - I realise it is probably not widely available for security reasons, but I bet it is quite impressive!). In the same way that if you walked into a pub in most Army towns and talked to some soldiers about the lack of carrier avaition they wouldn't be too fussed.

Maybe as members of the armed services we should be more bothered about deficiencies in our brother services, but most of us are too busy dealing with the deficiencies in our own on a day to day basis. I would suggest that you may have the luxury of having the time, energy, and dare I say passion to worry about the subjects close to your hearts, such as the state of the RN, but kindly don't be surprised if most non RN service people elect to devote their spare energies elsewhere!

[Jackonicko]

The problem is that the very deficiencies to which you refer will only by exacerbated by the amount of money we'll have to spend on these gold-plated and oft-irrelevant carriers.

[Not_a_boffin]

(Wait for it) - or Tranche 3!

[Sunk at Narvik]

What planet are you on Jacko?

It would be an interesting exercise to list the current kit and future programs that are irrelevent to the current campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq, but I'm sure you appreciate that any responsible Govt has to plan for a range of contingencies away from our current commitments?

[Jackonicko]

Carrier's haven't been NEEDED since the Falklands. Land based air power has been needed again and again, and is quicker and cheaper to deploy and more flexible.

As for Typhoon, isn't the plan for it to be at Kandahargh later this year?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Jackonicko. Have you gone on holiday and left your access in the custody of someone less informed? The real Jackonicko usually shows a better grasp of the bigger picture.

There is more to our national wellbeing and security than counterterrorism and getting involved in bloody silly tribal wars. You could be forgiven for forgetting that as our wonderful Government clearly has. We are still an island nation relying upon the sea and the air above it for a large propotion of our commerce. We have, like it or not, continuing responsibilities for overseas territories and an increasing interest in overseas mineral rights. Commodities are getting scarcer and competition from other determined users can only get fiercer. We will need a functioning and capable Navy no less in the future than we have in the past.

What may look like a jolly in the form of a Group deployment to far off exotic places, remote from current real and lethal live ops, makes it no less hard and demanding work for those involved. It's about practicing current skills and learning new ones with other friendly forces. It's a chance for the RN to demonstrate its expertise and effectiveness, all part of the projection of deterrence. It's a chance to hone our own capbilities and those of our friends overseas. Do you really believe that the post cold war World is a safer and friendlier one?

A capable Navy cannot aford capability "holidays" while other more perceived immediately pressing tasks sponge up resources. Once a capability is lost or allowed to decay to a level of incompetnce, it's a hard and expensive task to get it back again and it won't necessarily be in time. The Navy is also part of the Joint whole and, apart from the current Afghanistan aberration, key to independant operation overseas. Treat yourself to a copy of BR1806 www.amazon.co.uk/Briti...0117729108 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Maritime-Doctrine-Ministry-Defence/dp/0117729108). I will quote a salient point from Chapter 1;

A Joint Approach

Maritime doctrine as discussed in this book is not simply ‘naval doctrine’.
While this edition of BR 1806 has been edited at the Maritime Warfare
Centre under the auspices of the Naval Staff in the Ministry of Defence and
is, in that sense, a single-Service statement of doctrine, it is not, nor could it be, concerned solely with matters of a naval nature. The maritime
environment is inherently joint. Air power is as vital to operations at sea as
it is to the conduct of military operations ashore. Naval forces themselves
exist to influence events ashore; they have never operated strategically in
an exclusively naval environment. This book is not, therefore, about ‘sea
power’. It is, rather, about the maritime dimension of joint operations. An
air force fighter aircraft and an army infantry battalion may well be
components of a maritime force because the word ‘maritime’ refers to the
environment in which they are operating, not to that institutional part of
the UK’s armed forces that might be providing them.

Since the Cold War the focus of maritime attention has shifted towards
littoral operations in support of operations ashore (arguably this
constitutes a return to pre-Cold War circumstances). For this reason there
is an increasing emphasis placed on joint operations and the concomitant
need for each Service to understand the modus operandi of the other two.
Joint operations in the littoral present a complex mix of opportunities and
challenges that will at times be difficult to meet. However, the Royal Navy’s
traditional flexibility of approach and its instinctive reliance on initiative to
achieve maximum effect sit very easily with the manoeuvrist culture that
guides military operations today. Both the joint approach and manoeuvrist
thinking are essential elements of the British Approach to Military
Operations articulated in BDD.

Despite the shift of focus towards the littoral, it is important that the deepwater environment and the continuing need to be able to conduct open
ocean sea control operations are not neglected. For example, the
submarine threat may have changed but it has not disappeared. The UK’s
maritime forces must retain their ability to carry out effective antisubmarine
warfare (ASW) operations, especially in support of ballistic missile carrying submarine (SSBN) deployments but also in the often (though not necessarily) shallower waters of the littoral. Maritime doctrine at all levels reflects operational imperatives in deep water as well as in the littoral.

Also have a look at http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/upload/pdf/FNOC.pdf As you will see, Naval aviation is a key capability;


Power Projection - Key Capabilities



operate and sustain Joint Power Projection assets from the sea





increase the Joint battlespace influence of air assets independent of HNS





employ responsive, reliable, accurate and sustained volumes of firepower including rapid

mission planning







provide a maritime force which is able to conduct rapid intervention and expeditionary

manoeuvre warfare in the littoral in support of the Joint Force Commander’s design for battle







conduct Information Operations





integrate the SF component


minimise the footprint ashore



Try to understand that an overseas deployment by a RN element is not a picnic and not without hazard. That isn't to say that rest periods are not, quite rightly, enjoyable but shouldn't be derided and scorned just because some poor buggers in whichever sandpit are in mortal danger in s**t conditions.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

GBZ absolutely right.

The RN may not be involved in kinetic operations (strange term) just now, however, it is heavily involved in the maritime aspects of the war on terror. For the last few years I have noted that there have been a number of deployments of Merlin HM1 or Sea King ASaCs7 aircraft, mostly aboard RFA vessels, to that part of the world. Keeping an eye on what's going on in that part of the world is vital. With other ISTAR assets such as Nimrod committed to Iraq and Afghanistan, RN rotary wing assets have to be used, likewise submarines.

This time the Merlins (and Sea Kings?) will be embarked aboard Illustrious, at the same time she does the planned exercises. Versatile eh?

The last time she went to that part of the world, she was on her way back when she was dispatched from Gibraltar to go to Lebanon, where she provided much needed command and control for the evacuation of foreign nationals. Again her Merlin and Sea Kings were key to maintaining an accurate picture of the situation, both at sea and in the air.

During the 2006 conflict in Lebanon Hezbollah fired an anti ship missile at an Israeli warship. What if Al Quida start getting their hands on these weapons? What if terrorists were to hijack a tanker, and use it to ram (and sink) other vessels? What if a number of tankers were hijacked?

If Al Quida hit the West at sea in a serious way they will hit us hard. What if the they feel they have the freedom to repeat the attack (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2334865.stm) on the MV Limburg?

[Island IT Sun]

Don't suppose any FW will be going now Lust will be a little late on station. Shame as we were looking forward to her port visit