Why Flying in the USA Sucks

[sevenstrokeroll]

Am I allowed to say, "sucks" on PPRUNE?

I suppose so.

Today, the news is screaming about how screwed up things are. Well, they are screwed up and I think it is time to point fingers.

I think that passengers are to blame. they wanted cheap flights...they got em.

but at what cost? super competition so bad that too many flights are scheduled so all run late.

airlines cutting pilot staff to the bone, so when bad wx hits, no reserve pilots! flights cancelled.

Some airlines haven't bought enough deice/anti ice fluid and they run out...flights cancelled.

oh well, I'm through venting!

[spannersatKL]

Probably sucks most of the time? If the 'pilot' work force is pared to the bone think what its like for the rest of us?

[bnt]

I think that passengers are to blame. they wanted cheap flights...they got em.
I resemble that remark... I see that kind of "blame the passenger" remark here a lot, and don't get it.

Of course I want flights to be less expensive: I want everything to be less expensive - who-da-thunkit? OK, I'm not a frequent flyer, but I've done a fair amount in the last few years, mostly business-related. A 20% increase in fares, to make the experience more enjoyable, would not have been a show-stopper. What has stopped me flying, however, have been fares that went off the chart e.g. $4000 quote for an economy class return, just because I did not book the holiday season 11 months in advance.

However, I do not remember being asked if I wanted cheap flights at the expense of safety or comfort. How is that my fault? What did I do, or not do, to make that happen? Please explain, so we poor self-loading parcels can figure out how to get the pleasure out of flying that we used to. As things are, with airports and skies crowded, my answer to that question is: fly as little as possible.

[sevenstrokeroll]

where were you thirty years ago?...that's when THEY asked

[Skydrol Leak]

Do you speak proper English? Because, sometime I can't understand all this moaning at all...sorry

[RRAAMJET]

It sucks for many reasons, not least of which are:

1. Disgruntled staff / burned-out staff/zero turnover at the top of seniority lists at the majors/zero fresh faces
2. complete lack of investment in new aircraft/amenities/interiors
3. squandering of billions on silly pet projects...eg: TWA purchase by Don Carty
4. Government interference/lobbying by 'interested parties'
5. The 'expect everything for nothing' culture in the USA
6. 9/11
7. Chapt. 11 responsibility-dodging

There's something else that's hard to explain, but basically it amounts to a near-universal collapse of morale in the industry. The executive compensation issues of the past 3 years have really, really exascerbated the lack of enthusiasm in staff, and in a service industry, that's fatal. It seems to many of the employees that the sh1t sandwiches just keep coming, with no respite, and no sympathy from a justifiably angry public.

Managers had a brief window of opportunity during the last 2 years to make meaningful strides in morale and service, but totally missed the shot; many Wall St analysts, however, have not missed the fact that gross mismanagement of HR issues is coming home to roost. I've never before worked with staff who want to shut their airline down, permanently. They're just waiting for release to self-help. Amazing....it's the British-Rail-of-the-Air...

It is very possibly the worst managed industry in the USA at present, and that takes in some ground. :eek:

[PAXboy]

What is described here is simply the same for every commercial field of endeavour in the world!

Yes, I know that it's your world that is not much fun at the moment but I can say the same of I.T. and telecomms after some 28 years in it. Everyone wants to pay less for everything, those that can, and will, pay more for the very best are a teeny-tiny percentage of the population. So the basic rule of Western style capitalism (as particularly promoted by the US of A) will tend to have this effect. No, it is not nice and Yes some things getter better and some get worse.

I sympathise with your 'venting' sevenstrokeroll, the current running and experiencing and living and working of (and in) commercial aviation is not much fun. It may indeed to be said 'to suck'!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

And for the traveling public the fear mongers have made airports torture chambers with all the paranoia.

[1Bingo]

Low cost carriers (ie, the competition) have to make the numbers work somehow, and that usually means reduced overhead, which includes a reduction in employee salary and services. I say increase fares to make passengers think again about just willy-nilly jumping on a plane and bring some dignity back to an industry that was once considered more than just a bus service.

[Snoopy]

I resemble that remark...
Bnt, I doubt it..... You may possibly resent it though.

Although having worked in the airline business many years ago and as a full fare paying passenger now, I must admit that although blame is a strong word, pressure from the customer base has been a major contributory factor in the decline of service. We all want cheaper fares and we all want full service...well as we all know, you can't have your cake and eat it. The equation just doesn't add up. Airlines are not the only industry to have suffered, most have, because we all want something good for as little money as possible...and I include myself.

[barit1]

You know how to go out of business in a hurry?

BLAME EVERYTHING ON THE CUSTOMER!

:rolleyes:

[Huck]

I don't know about you boys but I'm starting to see some benefits to foreign ownership.

If nothing else - it will get rid of our insane executive compensation levels. Pilot pay might actually improve.....

[Shiny side down]

I'd say in a lot of cases, people generally do not value anything these days.

Dedicated professionals (which are becoming a dying breed) will generally have aspirations and be willing to work for them, but for the most part, people want a very quick fix with little effort. So many people I know want everything, now. Either a cheap TV with all the bells and whistles, bought for a couple of weeks salary, or a short break someplace for no more than the price of a bag of groceries. So things that were once valued for the work required, are now simply cheap consumer items.
Fairly inevitable, but lamentable, nonetheless.

Unfortunately, many of the same values that create this 'commercially expeditious' environment also mean that people themselves have significantly less value, as viewed either by themselves, or by others.

Quite simply, dignity needs to be brought back into a lot things, not just aviation.

I won't expect much movement in that direction, though.

[ChristiaanJ]

Let me put on my 'SLF' hat for a moment.
(And let's not forget 99.9% of the SLF doesn't read PPRuNE.)

If I can get a 70 euro direct South-of-France to London return with a reputable (so far) low-cost airline, do you really expect me to pay 250+ euros for a 'regular-cost' flight with a transfer via CDG taking three times as long?

So far they haven't been dumping aircraft, they've been flying on-time, the aircraft are clean, and the service is pleasant.
A long as the management can keep a team together to provide this kind of service, I'll fly with them.

And a thought.....
If you were satisfied with what you were doing in your job, and pleased to be doing it, would you post on here? So maybe the comments on here may be somewhat biased?

I'm not denying hours and other safety issues. But it's strictly up to you to do something about it.... not the customer.

Christian

[PantLoad]

It's OUR fault, Sevenstrokeroll (and Rraamjet). We had the opportunity to get someone's attention in the early eighties when there was talk about a nationwide suspension of service (SOS). Everyone was afraid of Ronald Reagan.

Then, several years back (but recent enough to be under Bush, the genius), we talked about a strike. The word came from the White House that, if we all walked, the National Guard would 'escort' us to work.

To be blunt, we take it in the shorts because we allow it. Many people I fly with are more interested in leaning the owner's manual for their new BMW and less interested in getting involved in the union.

A few years ago, I flew with a first officer who, during the entire four-day trip, bitched about his life as an airline pilot at our company. Finally, I asked him if he had voiced his concerns with XXXX. His reply, "Who the hell is he?" I responded, "He's your union rep!"

Sevenstrokeroll, Rrammjet, et. al......Your opinions are, in my opinion, quite valid, true, correct. The question is: What are we going to do about it?

Maybe our new union head will have the guts to be a true union man, as opposed to being just another politician.


Fly safe,


PantLoad

[RRAAMJET]

But that's the whole point, Christiaan...

A new LCC comes along with cheap overheads, new staff, new aircraft, a fresh look...and does well for a while...until the workforce starts to mature and realises 'this isn't a career position and I'm not making anything out of this'....

And then they go stale...you still pay your low fare, but you notice that the interior is starting to look shabby and the staff are starting to show strain...fast forward 30 years since de-regulation provided an entirely fresh start for the US airline industry, and, well, here we are times ten. The LCC's just have a shorter shelf life before they lose the plot. Just look at Jet Blue...

You'll notice in my post further up the page that, for the most part, I've tried to lay the blame firmly on the industry's internal affairs rather than the passengers, for the very reason you state in your European example above.

[sevenstrokeroll]

So many responses! Glad to see it. But most are from europeans, not yet enough Americans have responded.

Ramjet seems to be on the right track.

Skydrol Leak: No, I don't speak or write proper english. I speak/write American English.

[bnt]

I resemble that remark...
Bnt, I doubt it..... You may possibly resent it though.
Hey, someone gets it! It's a Freudian Slip! Or not... just to clarify: I did that on purpose, it's a running psychological joke, probably originating with Groucho Marx. :hmm:
If I can get a 70 euro direct South-of-France to London return with a reputable (so far) low-cost airline, do you really expect me to pay 250+ euros for a 'regular-cost' flight with a transfer via CDG taking three times as long?
This is the kind of thing that gets my SLF's goat: these massive variations in fares, when it is unclear just what you would be getting for the extra cost. As noted, I would pay more, if I knew I was getting more in return, but from my POV it appears essentially random. :ugh:

[sevenstrokeroll]

twoonefour

funny you mention bread. Bread is much more expensive today than 7 years ago...yet airline fares are not going up at such a rate.

I paid US $4.50 for one loaf of bread today. It was much less a few years ago.

if one baker poisons a hundred loaves of bread...500 could die

if one pilot slams his plane into a building, thousands could die.

both jobs are important. but I know how much I spent learning to fly...and how easy it is to make a loaf of bread. I can get a book that will tell me how to bake and do quite well...try it with flying.

[FLCH]

To be blunt, we take it in the shorts because we allow it. Many people I fly with are more interested in leaning the owner's manual for their new BMW and less interested in getting involved in the union.
A few years ago, I flew with a first officer who, during the entire four-day trip, bitched about his life as an airline pilot at our company. Finally, I asked him if he had voiced his concerns with XXXX. His reply, "Who the hell is he?" I responded, "He's your union rep
I agree PantLoad, we are a group of fractured coalitions going nowhere as we are too busy being concerned with ourselves and not our fellow aviators.

[Chesty Morgan]

214,

by coughing up more for your milk, bread, clothes, daily paper, furniture, TV set and bus ticket

No problem. As soon as I can afford it. Which means higher fares and therefore higher salaries! :cool:

[sevenstrokeroll]

Newspapers...when USAToday came out, it was fifty cents an issue...it is now 75 cents...

but I've seen my pay go down since then.

THIS THREAD has gotten more responses than I could imagine. and I hope all the pilots out there start to take back our profession...and don't count on ALPA to do it for you.

[poorwanderingwun]

Not sure why the USA has been picked on for this vitriol... As a pilot... and from time to time SLF, and a frequent flyer internationally and domestically throughout Europe and the US and many points beyond, I would say that flying (as SLF) sucks internationally....
If I could drive and take boats I would prefer it every time... Personally I would be much happier if airline ticket prices doubled and LCCs were banned... I could then turn up at the airport and experience a civilised atmosphere... few delays... pleasant staff... and work with pilots of greater experience who lived happier lives and bitched less...
In addition my favourite parts of the Mediterranean and Caribbean would be less cluttered with sweaty red faced :mad:heads from the wrong side of town.:D

[PantLoad]

...when Alfred Kahn said (paraphrased), 'with deregulation, now everyone will be able to fly'....

And, I, after almost 30 years of deregulation, ask, 'Yes, but should they?'

I remember the clientele before deregulation. Now, I see what we're carrying these days. Admittedly, a lot of the nonsense that we see on airplanes these days is due to changes in social culture...but a lot of it is due to people leaving their trailers and flying to Alabama. (Oh, I really love Alabama...just joking!!!!)

Back in the days of PeopleExpress (a.k.a. People's Distress), the fares were so cheap, welfare recipients would fly from state to state to collect welfare from several sources. (The sister of a good freind of mine is a honcho in the Justice Department...her office investigates this particular kind of fraud.)

Over the years, we've had in the cabin, fist fights, food fights, screwing, illegal drug sales, illegal drug use, sexual assault, ...well, the list goes on...

A classic (in my mind) was when some company vice president on some international flight (I think he was either drunk or on cocaine...maybe both.) became upset with the cabin service, jumped up on the serving cart, dropped his pants, squatted, and took a XXXX.

I and my crew were waiting at the gate for our aircraft...someone was there to pick up an arriving passenger (some relative) (pre-911), and he asked the gate agent when the plane would arrive. The agent told him the plane was going to be about 15 minutes early, because 'the plane had a tailwind'.

The man's reply, "The plane has a tailwind....You ought to put those tailwinds on all your aircraft!"

And, Alfred Kahn was right..... Now everyone DOES fly.


PantLoad

[Brian Abraham]

By Alan H. Hess. Originally published in Travel Weekly, October 1998.

==============================================
** Buying paint from a hardware store **

Customer: Hi, how much is your interior flat latex paint in Bone White?

Clerk: We have a medium quality, which is $16 a gallan, and premium,
which is $22 a gallon. How many gallons would you like?

Customer: I'll take five gallons of the medium quality, please.

Clerk: That will be $80 plus tax.

==============================================
** Buying paint from an airline **

Customer: Hi, how much is your paint?

Clerk: Well, sir, that all depends.

Customer: Depends on what?

Clerk: Actually a lot of things.

Customer: How about giving me an average price?

Clerk: Wow, that's too hard a question. The lowest price is $9 a gallon, and we have 150 different prices up to $200 a gallon.

Customer: What's the difference in the paint?

Clerk: Oh, there isn't any difference; it's all the same paint.

Customer: Well, then, I'd like some of that $9 paint.

Clerk: Well, first I need to ask you a few questions. W hen do you intend to use it?

Customer: I want to paint tomorrow, on my day off.

Clerk: Sir, the paint for tomorrow is the $200 paint.

Customer: What? When would I have to paint in order to get the $9 version?

Clerk: That would be in three weeks, but you will also have to agree to start painting before Friday of that week and continue painting until at least Sunday.

Customer: You've got to be kidding!

Clerk: Sir, we don't kid around here. Of course, I'll have to check to see if we have any of that paint available before I can sell it to you.

Customer: What do you mean check to see if you can sell it to me? You have shelves full of that stuff; I can see it right there.

Clerk: Just because you can see it doesn't mean that we have it. It may be the same paint, but we sell only a certain number of gallons on any given week. Oh, and by the way, the price just went to $12.

Customer: You mean the price went up while we were talking?

Clerk: Yes, sir. You see, we change prices and rules thousands of times a day, and since you haven't actually walked out of the store with your paint yet, we just decided to change. Unless you want the same thing to happen again, I would suggest that you get on with your purchase. How many gallons do you want?

Customer: I don't know exactly. Maybe five gallons. Maybe I should buy six gallons just to make sure I have enough.

Clerk: Oh, no, sir, you can't do that. If you buy the paint and then don't use it, you will be liable for penalties and possible confiscation of the paint you already have.

Customer: What?

Clerk: That's right. We can sell you enough paint to do your kitchen, bathroom, hall, and north bedroom, but if you stop painting before you do the bedroom, you will violation of our tariffs.

Customer: But what does it mater to your whether I use all the paint? I already paid for it!

Clerk: Sir, there's no point in getting upset; that's just the way it is. We make plans upon the idea that you will use all the paint, and when you don't, it just causes us all kinds of problems.

Customer: This is crazy! I suppose something terrible will happen if I don't keep painting until after Saturday night!

Clerk: Yes, sir, it will.

Customer: Well, that does it! I'm going somewhere else to buy my paint.

Clerk: That won't do you any good, sir. We all have the same rules.

To be fair, the issue with airlines is to be found in any business today, and that is executives who are pulling in obscene renumeration packages, and think of nothing except their next bonus/share options etc. I think it was an old time Edwards test pilot who put it thus,

"We, the generation of the depression, World War II and the postwar technological explosion, were a unique group, As we shattered myth after myth, we also were sowing the seeds to meet our match. We were generating the bureaucracy that gave the keys to our decline to the trial lawyers and the MBAs and that has brought us almost to a Mexican standoff. Howerer, this coming great new generation will not tolerate their shenanigans for long, and we will once again begin to surprise ourselves at every turn by advancing aerospace."

"If the Wright brothers were alive today Wilbur would have to fire Orville to reduce costs." - Herb Kelleher, founder, Southwest Airlines

[sevenstrokeroll]

will someone tell me what codswallop is?

is there a professional bakers rumor network? perhaps twoonefour would be more comfortable there.

---

Awhile ago, the term "clampets" was popular with the f/a's. and that is the problem...cheap enough that people who don't have manners can buy tickets and treat the plane like a barn.

--

[MungoP]

Poorwanderingwun: If I could drive and take boats I would prefer it every time... Personally I would be much happier if airline ticket prices doubled and LCCs were banned... I could then turn up at the airport and experience a civilised atmosphere... few delays... pleasant staff... and work with pilots of greater experience who lived happier lives and bitched less...
In addition my favourite parts of the Mediterranean and Caribbean would be less cluttered with sweaty red faced d*ckheads from the wrong side of town.


sevenstrokeroll Awhile ago, the term "clampets" was popular with the f/a's. and that is the problem...cheap enough that people who don't have manners can buy tickets and treat the plane like a barn.

Yep... that says it all.... sometimes I think that aviation today is there mostly to keep CEOs well fed, the wrong people visiting the wrong place and wanabee pilots from having to J*rk Off...

[barit1]

There are a whole buncha ppruners in the wrong business, methinks. :}

[Two's in]

Here's an idea:

Dear Sir,
As I am unable to realize my full potential, or find any degree of job satisfaction with your Airline, please accept my resignation with immediate effect. I hope my position can be filled by some enthusiastic and unjaded youngster who will see a career in avation with the same delight as I once did.

Yours.....

[PantLoad]

Right idea....

Many of my colleagues in the airline business in America have, essentially, done just that. Maybe they've taken an early retirement, or maybe they've flat out resigned.

Some have switched to other careers, and some have gone to carriers in other countries. In most cases, from what I can gather, these people are happier and wealthier.

And, it's interesting to note (which has been covered many times before here in PPrune), that Southwest Airlines...the ultimate low-cost carrier...pays like a Las Vegas slot machine. The people are happy and wealthy (and highly unionized). Obviously, this happiness and wealthiness of employees is not dependent on working for a 'Legacy' carrier or working for a carrier that caters to the trailer park people.

It's all about competent management...It's all about character and integrity...It's all about treating people fairly. (Gee, do they teach these things in these MBA schools?)

What gets me is that many of the major airlines declared bankruptcy, disolved the pension plans, and bankrupted the PBGC, so now the tax payers of America are taking it up the shorts. All the while, these execs benefited personally to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.

Today, it's Deja Vu II with the "credit crisis". Unscrupulous execs loaned money for real estate purchases to people who were not credit worthy, bundling up the loans into investment instruments that were sold world-wide. What could go wrong! Worst case, when Mr. and Mrs. Smith default on their mortgage, the loan holder takes the house...sells it, maybe for a profit.

In the end, many lending institutions have declared bankruptcy. The execs still drive the expensive sports cars, live in the multi-million dollar neighborhoods, belong to the expensive country clubs...and the U.S. Federal Reserve says the tax payers need to take some of the hit to circumvent a world-wide recession (or depression).

The commonality between these two stories (airline industry and mortgage industry) is greed, theft, and political connections. The rich stay rich, and the average guy still gets caught holding the bag. With airline bankruptcies, execs were rewarded with millions for 'struggling their way through the reorganization process', while the employees (mostly pilots) gave, gave, gave, gave...to keep the companies afloat.

None of this stuff is new....been going on since the beginning of time. The basic song is the same...maybe a second verse...maybe a more modern rendition of the song...maybe new singers...but, the basic song is the same.

Most airline execs, I'm convinced, are crooked incompetents. Regardless of the industry...whether you're making car batteries or women's tampons, the reject executives seem to gravitate to the airline industry...for some reason.

Look at it this way: Little Johnny and his sister, Suzie, are bored during their summer vacation and open up a lemonade stand on the front sidewalk of their home. Ten cents a cup. The product tastes good, and they have many happy customers.

XYZ Airways sees this new, emerging market and immediately sets up a competing stand across the street. Armed with MBAs, lawyers, and a host of experienced management types, they structure a top-heavy layer of 'control'...have a dedicated department of employees for each function of the process....one department solicits offers for lemon supply (with the associated kickbacks)...one department is responsible for peeling the lemons...one department is responsible for stirring the stuff...one department is responsible....well, you get the idea.

At the end of the summer, Johnny and Suzie have made an honest profit of $7.10 selling their ten cent lemonade, while XYZ Airways shows a loss of $328 million...selling the same damn thing.

And, it's all the employees' fault.....

PantLoad

[PJ2]

Pantload;

Absolutely fabulous post.

[Shore Guy]

Ah, the good old days.......
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2007-10-1-PANAM707-1958.wmv

[PLovett]

Yeah. Right up to the time they said the weather at London was clear and 64 degrees. Then I knew it was fantasy.:}

On a more serious note I recall an airline executive in the 1970s saying that the best time to travel was about 10 years ago. Never a truer word spoken.:ok:

[teghjeet]

I think that the same is true the world over and not just in US. Pilots and Technical crew get more and more professional while the management gets the worst

[Beausoleil]

"I paid US $4.50 for one loaf of bread today. It was much less a few years ago."

Maybe you should change brands? Or buy yourself a bread maker?

Pantload: Perfect description of our economic system. It's laissez faire capitalism for the average joe, and feather-bedded cradle to grave socialism for the well off.

[Huck]

The Reagan Era convinced the majority of Americans to place too much trust and power in large corporations.

This situation hasn't changed since, through the years of the somewhat-decent George I (run out of town for increasing taxes on said corporate elites), Bill the Pedophile (spanked for trying to wrest health care away from corporate medicine) and W (an MBA who is stupid like a fox).

As a result:

- pension funds were neglected by the government, and the MBA's sunk them into stocks, tech funds and risky businesses - then threw up their hands when they became woefully underfunded. The PBGC (read: taxpayer pockets) provided the solution. (This little phenomenon costs my retired UAL uncle about $60,000 a year, by the way);

- unions were trussed, gutted and left to a lingering death. And we can't complain - we handed them the knife. The president of ALPA stood beside Reagan when he fired the controllers (after promising them the moon during the presidential campaign). When USAir's pensions were flushed, we didn't answer our phone (we should have shut the entire system down. Behnke was spinning in his grave that day);

- all the while the satanic feedback-loop of BOD gives bonus to CEO -CEO gives bonus to President - President gives bonus to executives - executives sit on other boards, etc.... has caused us to be the laughing stock of the global industry. Goodwin could have played golf every day and been the CEO of the biggest airline in the world. Instead he drove UAL off a big cliff, and walked away with tens of millions. Same with DAL, USAir, NWA, etc.... At least nobody is telling us how brilliant Al Checci is anymore, but he got to keep his tens of millions.

We're in the 1920's, boys. Somebody dig up FDR, and quick......

[peterporker]

I was a disgruntled American pilot, so I left the USA, got a JAA license (paid for by my new employer) and make twice what I was in the US. Happy days, right? Unfortunately my rent costs twice what my US mortgage cost and I can't even afford to own a car here, not to mention the taxes and other BS. I'll stay here a while, but I definitely plan to go back to the US and fly with people who didn't buy their job.

[411A]

and I hope all the pilots out there start to take back our profession...and don't count on ALPA to do it for you.

The remark about ALPO is certainly correct, but oddly enough, my specific salary has gone up every year without fail, I work when I what, for whom I want, and now that I am in the management chair, hire whom I want.

A spendid arrangement.:}

All the rest for you folks is sour grapes, plain and simple.
Grow up.:rolleyes:

[PAXboy]

sevenstrokerollwill someone tell me what codswallop is?An old English expression, essentially, it is a polite way of saying bull$hit.

PantLoadSouthwest Airlines...the ultimate low-cost carrier...pays like a Las Vegas slot machine.I think we all know what you mean but I think LA slots have a reputation of not paying!

The commonality between these two stories (airline industry and mortgage industry) is greed, theft, and political connections.That is a VERY good parallel to draw. In the 28 years that I have been in various kinds of employment, in various commercial and governmental organisations and in various countries of the world ... one certainty is that each new generation, as soon as they get their backside in the biiiig chair - starts to turn things to their personal advantage.

Not all of them, of course not, but more than enough. I suspect that, in the process, they make the working lives of those under them so unpleasant as to ensure that a junior member of staff makes a silent resolve that the very moment he gets his backside into the big chair ... :ugh:

[ryansf]

I've flown about 10 domestic US flights this year, and on every single one I got: -

2 x 50lb of checked luggage
2 Pieces of hand luggage
Free drink and snack
Interlining of baggage
Cheap fares
Plenty of legroom
PTV's on many aircraft


I could get along fine without any of the above, maybe due to fact we don't get any of that over here in Europe, apart from the cheap fares. American flyers are too demanding, which is probably why half the carriers are in Chapter 11....

[Hurkemmer]

but in eu pilots are paid better no?

[barit1]

The Reagan Era convinced the majority of Americans to place too much trust and power in large corporations.

The New Deal convinced the majority of Americans to place too much trust and power in government.

[RRAAMJET]

I think 411A has totally missed the point of the thread which is why flying sucks for the passengers...:rolleyes:

I don't think ALPA has much to do with back-end service failures, but I know all unions are a pet peeve of 411's, and one simply can't miss a free salvo across the bow, now, can we?

Ryan - you must be flying on Ryanair or EasyJet all the time, because comparing like-for-like 'full-service' carriers in the US versus, say, Asia leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. I'm ashamed to say our 'service' has reached rock bottom and continued burrowing...and management's excuse is: "We' simply don't see why we should provide anything for the passengers above the absolute minimum; rock-bottom fares beget rock-bottom service".

[PBL]

I think it is a great idea to try to find out how to run an airline so that it is successful as a business and the employees are happy at their job.

Unfortunately, no one on earth appears to know how to do it. And it is not like there is any shortage of people trying to figure out how, which one can see by regularly reading journals such as The Economist. Air travel is a notoriously cyclical business, where what worked five years ago no longer does. In other words, there is no obvious business model that is also realistic.

I think blaming greed and incompetence of executives is the wrong approach. Total executive compensation is trivial in comparison with the routine employee costs of your average large airline, so if one paid executives the same as pilots it wouldn't make much difference at all to the business model and the sinking airline would still drown. And on the other hand if you find that rare genius who can actually make your airline profitable in the long run with happy contented employees, you might as well pay himher what heshe wants because it is only a blip and your business is successful. I understand that this is the usual justification for high executive compensation but that does not make it any the less true.

One of the main reasons Southwest appears to be doing so well is that they hedged their fuel costs. It is smart but it is also time-limited and also not everyone can do it. One of the other reasons is that Kelleher was smart enough to avoid much of the legacy business structure that handtied other airlines when it came to adjusting to the cycles, and he was there first. You know, like Ryanair, that airline for which I hear every pilot would give hisher hind teeth to work...

PBL

[peterbuckstolemymeds]

funny you mention bread. Bread is much more expensive today than 7 years ago...yet airline fares are not going up at such a rate.
I paid US $4.50 for one loaf of bread today. It was much less a few years ago.
if one baker poisons a hundred loaves of bread...500 could die
if one pilot slams his plane into a building, thousands could die.
both jobs are important. but I know how much I spent learning to fly...and how easy it is to make a loaf of bread. I can get a book that will tell me how to bake and do quite well...try it with flying.
We all say stupid things when we're kids. But we don't all say them on the Internet, where they're available to anyone, potentially for all time.
If there were a Darwin award for flyers' careers, I'd nominate your posting. With an attitude like this, you're gonna do great. :rolleyes:
PB

[411A]

As I've never worked for a unionized carrier, RRAAMJET, I really couldn't give a stuff about unions...however, I do know a quite a few folks that were right and truly sold down the river by ALPO (Eastern Air Lines folks, for example) so as for unions in general...not worth the bother it seems to me.
Look at BALPA in the UK...paper tiger, personified.

[saffron]

Airlines are not shy of high prices when they can get away with it;just flew with BMI London to Moscow one way ticket £432 (this is a cheap price on this route) & they had the cheek to charge me for my drink.I would support higher prices by taxing aviation fuel (the greens would like this too,not that I am one) However this solution would require worldwide action,so that all aviation is paying the same tax,not so impossible considering governments love a new tax if their people let them get away with it,which in this case they would due to the global warming hysteria.

[411A]

Hmmm, much higher taxes, less flying, fewer aeroplanes, fewer pilots needed.
As a side benefit, eliminating any future pilot 'shortage' and keeping the older guys employed ('til age 65) meaning, no advancment for the First Officers, for awhile.:}

Oh, I can hear the cries of anguish now...boo hoo:{:{:{:E

[RRAAMJET]

For the umpteenth time, 411, the topic is about the experience in the back...knock it off with the social hand-grenades and adjust your Depends for more thoughtful computer work...'grief...:ugh:

[411A]

If the 'experience' for the folks in back was so bad, RRAAMJET, airplanes would not have many pax.
As it is...quite high load factors are experienced by most US carriers.

The flying public will put up with a lot it seems to me....except higher fares.
Expect no improvement for the customers...:ugh:

[BahrainLad]

Good letter in the Financial Times today on this very subject...



From Mr Matt Andersson.

Sir, Philip Stephens (“British Airways catches the Heathrow disease”, December 18) and respondents David Sands and Rick Medlock (Letters, December 24) point the right direction for potential airline industry solutions: regulation. However, merely auctioning off landing slots or mandating certain consumer protections as they suggest would likely prove disappointing and insufficient.

Preceding any smart regulatory action is smart policy that reflects the specific economics of the aviation industry: like energy, telecom and water, it is a natural monopoly, an industry that cannot function reliably and efficiently over the long term except in a limited competitive arrangement. This stems from aviation's unusually high fixed costs, operating intensity and other obligations, including maintenance, security and infrastructure.

Our now 30-year experiment in deregulation has provided clear evidence that the world's best airlines operate in oligopoly or duopoly environments (Australia, UAE), or consist of recent merger and partial consolidation (Air France/KLM; Lufthansa/Swiss).

But beyond a more supportive market structure is the logic of an integrated industrial arrangement. The five As (aircraft, airports, airspace, airlines, after-market) all operate as distinct, unco-ordinated entities with separate ownership, capital structures, regulation, credit strength and budgeting. Until these are synchronised, then uneven capacity, resulting from distorted signals of supply and demand coupled with isolated, unco-ordinated operations functions, will continue to define consumer air travel.

Matt Andersson,
President,
Indigo Aerospace,
Chicago, IL 60606, US

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007

[Frankie_B]

The idea is that you pay for your destination. You are not paying to eat, drink or watch a movie - you are paying to get from A to B. Aviation is for the most part transportation, not a cruise. If you want better service and are ready to pay for it - book First Class! :ok:

The public has voted with their wallets - they will take a lower fare over a complimentary meal service on a domestic flight any day. Personally, I see no problem with this. It's a reality of our much more globalized world - people need to get places and the actual transport is not such a big deal anymore, it's the destination that matters.

I've got to say though, I would pay around 20% more for the airline that offers a meal, a drink and a PTV!

[WorkingHard]

SAFFRON - PLEASE PLEASE do not think aviation fuel is tax free. AVTUR certainly is but those of us who still fly piston aircraft on business pay a very high rate of duty and VAT for AVGAS. Current price is over 3 TIMES that of AVTUR.

[saffron]

Realise Avgas is taxed, but thought we were discussing airlines.On the point of a contract to get you to your destination I agree,IF the fair is good value.If an airline is going to charge me a full service fair (I think you would agree that £432 London to Moscow is that) then I expect a full service.BA charge identical fares but don't charge for drinks,guess which airline I will be using next time.(a fact which I have pointed out to BMI)

[Huck]

The public has voted with their wallets - they will take a lower fare over a complimentary meal service on a domestic flight any day. Personally, I see no problem with this. It's a reality of our much more globalized world - people need to get places and the actual transport is not such a big deal anymore, it's the destination that matters.

Problem is - as in all markets, there is a "floor" to the scale of acceptable service, below which consumers will not buy, therefore driving service levels back up.

But in aviation, you go below that floor, you are extremely dead. Kind of a rough free market when the only way to find the lowest possible price is to start mort-ing people.....

[sevenstrokeroll]

this thread was started for both the front (pilots) and back ( passengers). So all comments should be welcomed.

Two people have commented on my "bread" thought.

I stand by it. And I think you should all ask a baker if its easier to bake bread than fly a plane.

I've done ok in aviation and don't need an attitude check via people who don't know me or haven't flown with me.

[saffron]

Sevenstrokeroll don't worry about it,there are always people in this world looking to take offense. In the great Victorian novel 'North & South' the heroine,daughter of a vicar who has a crisis of faith & gives up his comfortable living in Hampshire to move to Manchester,remarks to a local girl; 'I'm so sorry I didn't mean to cause offense' the Manchester girl replies 'Don't worry lass if there's offense to be given you can be sure we'll take it'.... Still makes me laugh.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Happy New Year Saffron! a rare spice and a rare wit

[wendyg]

I see the problem a little differently: it seems to me (an American based in London) that the problem is that there isn't any way for the market to push airlines towards better service. Yes, you can fly business class, but the gap between economy fares and business is so large that it doesn't provide a test for whether, say, a decent number of people would be willing to pay 10-20% extra for better service.

I've been gold SLF on US Airways for quite a few years now, and the in-flight services have noticeably declined: the meals keep getting smaller and less edible. In the last six months, they've taken the Airbuses with their economy class power outlets and personal video off the Gatwick-Philadelphia route, replacing them with older Boeings with no such amenities. One flight a few months ago we were put on a Boeing small enough (one aisle, no galley space) that it didn't have enough fuel to hold at Philadelphia and we had to stop at Boston to fuel up, delaying us by a couple of hours. Other than complaining to the airline - which I did - or taking my business elsewhere there is no way for me to signal to them that I'd pay a bit more to have better service. Business class passengers don't either: sure they can pay 6-10x as much for the bigger seat and better food, but they still get stuck with the same delays the economy passengers do. How can the market be constructed to provide better feedback?

wg
P.S. I want to add that the staff on that cramped Boeing were excellent and extremely professional. They absolutely did their best, including in being comfortably polite in listening to the irate Israeli woman in the next seat who did not stop b*I&^ching the entire flight - about the food, the seats, the overhead movies, the Gatwick departure that caused her to miss the flight the previous day when she went to Heathrow...)

[barit1]

...One flight a few months ago we were put on a Boeing small enough (one aisle, no galley space) that it didn't have enough fuel to hold at Philadelphia and we had to stop at Boston to fuel up, delaying us by a couple of hours.

That is hardly unprecedented - Laker Airways DC-10-10s were marginal on westbound range LGW-JFK. They had to file to Bangor, Maine, and then if all was favorable (winds, traffic ...) they could re-file while enroute to go direct to JFK. 90+% of the time, they didn't need the Bangor stop; but when they did stop, they cleared customs at Bangor and thus came to JFK as a domestic arrival, so little time was lost overall.

[ChristiaanJ]

wendyg,
...the problem is that there isn't any way for the market to push airlines towards better service.I find myself staring at that as well...
I've been gold SLF on US Airways for quite a few years now...So, in a way we're at the opposite end of the spectrum.
As I said earlier, I've just got a MPL-LON return for something like 70 euros.
It allows me to go and see a bunch of friends for a weekend, something I couldn't have done otherwise.
For that I'm perfectly willing to walk half a mile at the airport, then across the tarmac to the plane, put up with only just adequate legroom, and pay for a drink onboard if I want one.
Especially since the aircraft are clean and on time and the staff is perfectly pleasant and competent, and the airline does not have a reputation for dumping planes.

Just thinking out loud.... maybe you should pay for everything else, rather than just have a choice between economy and business?
More legroom? That'll be so much.
Booking the day before? That'll be so much (happens already).
A meal of your choice?
IFE on longer flights?
Preferential seating?
Etc.
Different business model, and I don't know if it would be feasible.

[isi3000]

Just checking if im doing this right. Im new you see... :\

[Frankie_B]

Ceasing to fly the airline and thus reducing their revenue is not a good enough signal for them? Usually works for other businesses