Single-engine CPL v Multi-engine CPL

[AlphaMale]

Guys,

I've done a fair amount of research on flight training but I had a thought the other day on what was best to have?

SE CPL & ME IR

ME CPL & SE IR

ME CPL & ME IR (I'm sure this is the best to have ... but that would be expensive)

Obviously the price has a lot to do with it, but I don't want to ruin my chances of employment due to being a tight bugger during training.

I was looking to do most of my JAA training in the states (Converting the FAA IR) but with the 4 schools I read about getting some shabby reviews I am looking toward doing my training in the UK (personal choice / PM's / research).

I am looking to do my training at a a fairly local school like Aeros / BFC / Airways.

I have not ruled out doing my PPL in the states but CPL & IR will probably done at one of the schools above.

Example of costs;

Single-engine CPL course £4,650
Multi-engine CPL course £6,450

Multi-engine IR (Already have a CPL) £11,250
Single-engine IR (Already have a CPL) £8,350

If costs get too high I guess Spain isn't too far away for a Multi IR.

Thanks guys.

(Looking to break into Air taxi work as soon as possible but main goal is to fly jets - bizjet, cargo or airline)

[pilotincommand]

You have to do the IR in the multi if you want to fly anything with more than one engine commercially. There is no need to do the CPL in a multi if you do the MEP class rating.

[ab33t]

If you intend going pro there is no debate here , Multi is the way to go.

[Mercenary Pilot]

If you intend going pro there is no debate here , Multi is the way to go.Explain?

Because at least 95% of the professional pilots I know (including myself) did their CPL in a single. I couldn't really see the point of a ME/CPL then and I don't really see one now. Everything is covered in the ME rating itself (which is under VFR) or on the ME/IR.

[AlphaMale]

The two grand I save doing a SE CPL over a Multi will pay for my MCC.

I am guessing 'SE CPL & ME IR' is the correct choice here?

[neilia]

Multi engine IR is the crucial thing. It doesn't matter what you do your CPL in, once you have an MEP rating, you can exercise those privileges commercially with a CPL.

[AlphaMale]

PPL
Hour Build & ATPL exams
SE-CPL
MEP
ME-IR

Then either MCC or FIC depending on job prospects at that time :}

Thanks M.P. for clearing up 95% of professional pilots have only a SE-CPL too.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Apparently the ME/CPL is good if your PFL's are crap (because you dont have to do them :}) and you build some extra twin hours.

However I don't really buy that, the schools that you have chosen would train you to do PFL's properly and in my opinion, dual hours don't really count towards much on a CV.

Just to add, you don't have a SE/CPL or a ME/CPL, it's just a nice shiny blue CPL. You will have the ME rating on the licence anyway because you need it for the ME/IR. :ok:

[steggers]

I'm only a PPL holder at present but work for an airline. I've asked the pilots at work this question and the majority of them have chosen ME/CPL as they say when you come to do your ME/IR there is so much to learn you don't want to get bogged down with learing to fly the twin aircraft as well as learning the IR stuff. At least if you fly the ME during your CPL it wont be so much of a shock when doing the ME/IR rating. Any opions on this would be great..............!!

[mad_jock]

I did IR then CPL and did it in the twin.

The main reason for this was that I had done my PPL in the states and hour building and had never really done PFL's properly and never heard of glide approaches and had done none of them in the previous year.

When i costed the options it was only an extra 500 quid which after circuit charges etc would have been used up with the additional training getting me up to cpl standard in the complex single.

Nav is slighty easier with no engine getting in the way.
After an IR the engine failure and go around is a well practised procedure.

The choice of where to do the ppl is a difficult one. Lots of things have changed since I was out there. But if there was one thing I would change in the way I did my training it would be to do my PPL in the UK. Its got nothing to do with getting a job or anything like that because I never had any problems in that department. I just felt I missed out on important experences which you can only get while flying in the UK. ATC procedures, RT etc. Which made the CPL/IR courses harder than if I had already been exposed to UK methods and practises.

Its a mine field, I am glad I don't have to make the choice again where to spend my money.

[Obs cop]

I'm quite simple, but so far my understanding is as follows........

PPL and CPL are licences which are only valid if the have a class or type rating attached.

The most common class ratings are:

SEP(Land)-single engine piston
MEP(Land)-multi engine piston

In addition there is the all consuming Instrument Rating.

To get to the point of airlines even looking you need the CPL (completed on a single or a multi) and and then an IR completed on a multi engined aircraft. One of the most common routes is to complete the CPL on a single engined aircraft. Once you have the CPL, adding a multi engined class rating to it, and then completing the IR on a multi.

Be very carefull that you are comparing like for like when looking at the costs though. A price for a "multi IR" normally means the instrument rating course is completed on a multi, but assumes you already have the MEP class rating, so it often will not include the actual class rating training.

It is possible to do the CPL on a multi engined aircraft, either starting the course with a valid MEP rating or doing the multi as a part of the course. Likewise you can combine the MEP course and the IR, but I don't believe that completion of a single engine IR will be valid with a multi rating unless an additional flight test is carried out. I could be wrong, but I haven't heard of anyone doing it that way, so I guess it's not any cheaper or easier.

[Artie Fufkin]

ME/IR, without question.

CPL - you choose; which would you prefer to do, PFL or single engine work? I can't imagine any employer is going to care which you did your CPL on as it is only a hoop to jump through.

Personally, I was better at single engine work than PFLs, but that's a personal preference. Obviously though, until you have your MECR, you'll not know which you prefer.

Convention is SE CPL & ME IR.

[AlphaMale]

Thanks for the great replies guys!

As said above the extra expense of a ME-CPL probably isn't worth it as a SE will do. And who knows if I'll prefer ME over SE if I only have a SE-PPL :confused: So I guess sticking to the conventional route is the way to do it.

One thing I'm starting to appreciate is why I should do my JAA PPL in the UK. If I do my PPL in the UK it'll also be with one of the schools above (Aeros/BFC/Airways) so when I go back for the CPL I should know the airfield, approaches, instructors and aircraft pretty well.

Thanks again guys and I hope you all have a happy Christmas ;)

Alpha

[neilia]

Actually, you'll find different schools have different preferred methods - for example Aeros recommend single CPL, BFC do multi CPL. So at the end of the day you probably want to pick your school and then go with whatever their way of doing things is.

Personally, I would've found a CPL with the additional workload and speed of a twin quite a leap up from PPL standard, whereas during the IR you have 25 hours in the sim to consolidate your ME procedures. However, people obviously manage to do CPLs in a twin.

Also worth clarifying, as Obs cop said, that you don't get an "SE CPL" or an "ME CPL" - you get a CPL, which is valid for whatever classes are on your licence.

[mad_jock]

If I do my PPL in the UK it'll also be with one of the schools above (Aeros/BFC/Airways) so when I go back for the CPL I should know the airfield, approaches, instructors and aircraft pretty well

Wish I had done it that way. Makes a huge difference knowing the general area.

There is a VRP to the south of Leeds which to this day I still haven't found. Its at the bottom of a valley next to a cinema. I was doing a positioning flight the other day VFR and we flew over it, still couldn't spot it.

I wouldn't worry to much about choosing your cpl school just yet but I can't see much wrong with your plan so far.

I hope you have visited Gatwick to get your medical sorted out before you plan your life to much.

Good luck

[Nichibei Aviation]

:(
Converting the FAA IR


Very very dangerous my friend!!

Here's what JAR says about non-jaa licence conversions:

P.70-71 http://www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/607069.pdf

You need to have 100 hours PIC instrument time to convert a non-JAA PPL IR into a JAA PPL IR.
+demonstrate proper R/T skills and theory knowledge.

Call it what you want, I call it European (:mad:) protectionism.

[AlphaMale]

All valid points here, and I an see why it would be a personal choice like taking an IR before a CPL really :bored:

I'm just looking at the figures of taking time off work / flights to US / chance of completing in 21 days / Visa grief / making the CPL/IR harder adjusting to UK airspace etc V Paying the higher prices of completing a PPL in the UK at £7k as opposed to £5K :eek:

Jock I've been doing a lot of planning and research and I agree with a visit to Gatwick, I'll be doing it before my PPL which I hope to start this summer. But I like to have my targets and budget set out before taking any steps.

I read 5 pages of my ATPL book 5 times a week before going to bed too, I figure if I read 25 pages a week I'd have finished the book in 3 months and have a good understanding of what I am getting myself into. If in Feb/March I feel I can do 14 exams of what I have read about and I can pass the class 1 medical then I'll spend my hard earned cash getting my PPL.

By which time I'll have the cash for my ATPL exams and some hour building sessions.

[mad_jock]

O dear which ATPL book are you reading?

The ATPL exams can't just be done by yourself. You need to sign up with a distance learning provider. Do xxx amount of hours studying then go to a residential course then sit the exams. You need the ppl before you can sign up with the school.

You really need to get the medical asap.

And you can do a PPL in the uk for less than 5k

[dontpressthat]

I figure if I read 25 pages a week I'd have finished the book in 3 months and have a good understanding of what I am getting myself into. If in Feb/March I feel I can do 14 exams of what I have read about...

If only it was that easy... Much more to it than just reading the books Alpha, The likes of OAT schedule groundschool for about 6months and thats 5days a week, 6/7 hrs a day.

DPT

[AlphaMale]

And you can do a PPL in the uk for less than 5k

Really? :confused:

The book I am reading is JAR Professional Pilot Studies by Phil Croucher.

I know I'm not going to understand all of it due to not having done any PPL training yet, I have also skipped Air Law. I am reading up on Meteorology at the moment.

I'll be looking to sign up with BGS after completing the PPL and I know I'll have to do x amount of hours etc. But if I can have an understanding of the subject I'll have an advantage already.

For example I found myself reading about the Earth's atmosphere the other night, Troposphere, Stratosphere, Mesosphere and Thermosphere, I never knew the different levels before and their heights where ones becomes another. I can't see this being any different to what BGS will give me next year.

Thanks for looking out for me Jock :p

[AlphaMale]

Much more to it than just reading the books Alpha

Yehh, but as mentioned above any advantage is something. I'm happy to read my ATPL books over a MaxPower magazine any day and and I'm sure it'll do me no harm.

I did a few exams while at air cadets (in fact I used to teach the subjects) like aerodynamics, radio, human factors etc I know this is nothing compared to PPL exams and probably insignificant compared to ATPL exams but the forces of drag still haven't changed ;)

[mad_jock]

Thats cool.

If you get the list of ppl schools from the caa web site and go searching.

After 5 mins seaching the web the cheapest i found was 4.5k all in, including landing fees and all the books and exams etc.

MInd you I would still go with the school that you want to do your CPL IR with.

[BigAl's]

OK folks, so how about this. Am I mad? Quite possibly... I'm at 67hrs P1 now, and when I get to the 70, I'll be straight off to my freindly traing provider to do the MEP. I've previously had differences training on a complex single and now have a few hours logged, with a view to advancing my skills for the future.

The way I am seeing it, (and this does not mean it's right!) is that the more experience I can get on more 'advanced' - for want of a better term - a/c, the better. If once I've clocked my hours up to the magic 150, I'm quite at home in an Arrow, that's no bad thing. Similarly with a multi. If I can fly it comfortably with a few P1 hours ideally before the IR then, knockout.

So, now you will say, 'Ah yes BigAl's, you must have deep pockets'. 'Yes', I say, 'they are deep, but there's nothing in them and my arms are short'!

[Yorky9]

I know this subject has been drawn out on several threads but would like to ask everyones opinion on my situation.

Have my PPL and all my hour building complete (recently completed in Sabadell, Spain) I have been offered to do my MEP and ME IR in Spain. This will help with time constraints I currently have with my ATPL's about to expire. Costings are also a factor as prices out here in Spain are very competitve. Would be returning to the UK, Wycombe Air Centre to complete the SEP CPL.

Looked into doing it in this order:

PPL
Hour Building
MEP
ME IR

SEP CPL / ME CPL

Having read various threads I get the idea that everyone would recommend the ME CPL if cost is not a factor. I am however having to be realistic and with the MEP and ME IR ratings hopefully completed, surely a SEP CPL (UK) with the ratings endorsed will suffice. Plus I believe I am entitled to a 15 hour CPL for completing the ratings first.

Any comments would be grealty appreciated.

Regards,

Yorky

[neilia]

It's a while since I trained but I thought SE CPL was the standard route. Can't see any advantage to ME CPL, just an unnecessary expense.

[mad_jock]

The advantage is the test is easier and you don't have to muck around learning how to fly a complex single. And there isn't much in it if you have done the IR first with the reduction in hours. And the difference between the hire rate for a decent complex single and a crappy old heap of a twin.

What you would consider as the standard route would be better described as the more usual route.