SAR Weather Limits

[anonythemouse]

I am curious about any laid down wx minima for SAR Ops.

Am doing a case based study of a SAR incident for a CRM presentation.

Reading the report I was amazed at the weather they were flying in compared to the limits that were imposed on myself during service (non SAR).

Any input would be gratefully received.

[4U2NV]

Firstly, it is down to the Op Captain to have a sensible caption. Its what we are paid for.. The Seaking has a rotor start limit of 45KT, that you can get around by starting in the lee of a hanger. Weather limits depend on where your area of ops are. If you are looking at an over water sortie, the kit combined with a radar -operator can get you safely to the hover over water near your target regardless of the cloud/fog... Ie, you can do the lot IMC. Over land the game changes somewhat. The Seaking has a 3000' DA limit in Rotor/Airframe Icing conditions (lifted from the FRC's), so cold Wx ops in the mountains can be sporty - ideal if you stay VMC below, or at least in the hvr taxi with an escape - be that a flyaway down the mountain, or nice field in which to land. Other than that you should keep your speed to that which you are able to stop before you hit the object that looms out of the gloom. In reality, it comes down to the job in hand. Four guys in a helo crash are not going to help the casualty one bit - that being said, if the casualty IS going to die unless we can do something, it is our job to explore all avenues (properly risk assessed by the the on-scene Captain, taking into account the Crews' experience level as well as the weather) to try and resolve the job satisfactorily. I hope this helps a bit. What job are you talking about??? PM if you wish...

[Climebear]

There are SAR assets that do not have wx minima: the RAF's only all weather Search and Rescue capability (http://http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafvalley/aboutus/mrs.cfm).









OK, I know you meant SAR helicopters, admit that this asset has a non-existant maritime SAR capability and acknowledge that it is, generally, slower that an helicopter (even a Sea King);)

[shawtarce]

Weather limits for a shout..........

By Day:

Clear of cloud and in sight of surface

By Night:

Enough light to remain clear of cloud and in sight of surface

[Tiger_mate]

Climebear; try this one instead:

Mountain Rescue (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafvalley/aboutus/mrs.cfm)

the differance is that this one works.

[shawtarce]

MRT, both civie and military, play a vital role in SAR ,although they are not limited by any weather limits that I'm aware of.

These brave souls risk life and limb to brave anything the elements throw at them.

As RAF Helo SAR. (broken at the mo), I doff my cap in respect to you MRT chaps and chapesses.

Be Safe

I like safe

ShawTarce

:ok:

[SARREMF]

What job would be my first question? You will probably find the crew at least read these pages. They could PM you then and you could perhaps understand their side of the story?

I love CRM but, and its a little but, second guessing from afar might be a tad dangerous? Why did they launch? Perhaps they had been listenign to the FM all day listening to the job build. Perhaps they had fully researched and planned the job - twice. just to make sure. Perhaps they had taken every assessement of every risk they could think of and still they thought it possible so they did it. You will not find that on any form R or report I know about? Unless it was a really big job then some of them get writen up in long hand.

Give us a clue what job?

[anonythemouse]

The job in question was Irish Air Coprs "Rescue 111", Lismore, Ireland. Unfortunately there is no one around from the crew to get any information from as they all perished. The accident report was very comprehensive and full of minute by minute info. Unfortunately, having no SAR background I have no understanding of the world in which these guys operate from a weather perspective. I can assure you that I have no intention of picking over the bones to apportion blame or anything of that nature.

[spheroid]

Although weather played a vital part in the sad case of Rescue 111 surely the predominant factor which led to the accident was "detachmentitis" ?

[Green Flash]

Can anyone point me to some info on the Rescue 111 incident please? Never heard of it before. Ta.

[airborne_artist]

GF - http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3924-1.pdf

[Green Flash]

Thanks a_a

[professor moriarty]

Years of bouncing around the world...and over the water...and I think we got away with alot.

[Green Flash]

At 23:38:30 hrs, MRCC called DH248 - there was no reply.

I've read one or two accident reports over the years but it's lines like the above that gave me a cold shiver. Sad, sad, sad, waste of life. RIP guys.:(

[anonythemouse]

Spheroid, I agree as it would seem that rescues do take place in weather that is as bad or worse. What I would like to do is offer the audience the considered opinion that this unfortunate incident is not due soley to the weather and help them to focus on the CRM issues. I just get the feeling that most will latch onto the weather and fail to see what else was involved. If SAR Ops do not have laid down weather limits then we can avoid placing undue significance on any possible breach of them as a cause.

[Green Flash]

Anon

Agreed. Take away the weather, night, unfamilier environment and probably alot more things I havn't thought of and the outcome might have been different. Incidents like this are rarely caused by a single event. Spot the chain, break the chain? Still doesn't bring back 4 good men.

[anonythemouse]

Sadly it doesn't but, if 1 person in the audience takes the error chain on board we may avoid another incident such as this. Sadly, like counter terrorism, you only find out when the sytem has failed. Viewing the report, with the benefit of hindsight, in a warm office and little stress there is a danger that we can miss the lessons to be learnt and just feel superior because we would never have succumed, would we? When I think about the crew room banter and tales of daring do there are times that I cringe at what I can now see as my own stupidity or lack of awareness. There but for the Grace of God (whichever one you choose)! I am older and, I hope, a lot wiser now. Age has brought on an amazing ability to say no, and stick by it.

[Green Flash]

The ability to say 'whoa, hang on, something isn't right here' is to be prized and encouraged.

[anonythemouse]

4U2NV, check your PM's

Anon