BBC - Army "losing battalion" to drugs

[Top Right]

BBC report on increased level of positive drug tests in the Army at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7142413.stm.

RUSI defence management analyst Christianne Tipping said the Ministry of Defence's drugs policy needed to re-examined, especially "at a time when recruitment and retention are problematic"

there could be a need to look at a more pragmatic management strategy so that recruitment difficulties in certain trades are not compounded by high discharge rates resulting from drug offences

What exactly does she mean by that - lowering our standards or picking on other trades? Unless she's suggesting that soldiers use drugs-testing as an easy exit, but no-one can predict when and where the tests come, so it's not easy to adopt this cynical view. Maybe the clue is just in the fact that she's a "management analyst".

[mutleyfour]

Of course the easy answer would be to reduce your drug testing.

As for 85% being tested annually, I havent seen the CDT for at least 4 years and assumed answer A above was already in force.

[breakscrew]

Unfortunately it is a reflection of our wider society. However, I for one would not like to see a relaxation of our policy just to aid retention figures. If you are going to go to war you want to know that the bloke covering your back is not on drugs, nor is irresponsible enough to have been on drugs. How would you know when to trust him/her?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Its always stuck me as strange that the MoD has chosen one of the most expensive methods of drugs testing when compared to that used in the civil sector but then completely ignores testing for alcohol via random breath testing.

As for lowering standards, unfortunately there are many factors which have given rise to an increase in positive drugs tests. Pressure of current operational tempo and resultant drug use by some individuals is no doubt one of them but of course the fact we now draw recurits from a society in which recreational drug use is far more accepted is no doubt another one.

A far better solution than the current one would be to introduce on-site drugs testing using dipstick cards which will only flag up regular users rather than occassional users. These tests are also very simple to undertake and can be implimented by managers suspecting drug use rather than the blanket testing of many folk which is not only time consuming and expensive but also takes service personnel away from their primary duties.
These tests could be carried out within the med centre with the attendance of a single witness (RAF Police or an officer) and a witness for the accused if required.

[A and C]

Drug use is now widespread in airline cabin crew and I would suspect that a number of airlines would cease to function if the drug policy of the MoD was to be taken up.

Allmost all of the drug use is on nights off and well away from work but of course some drugs will show up on a test up to three months after use.

I have yet to see anyone turn up for work unfit due to drug use but I cant say that for the booze!

I think that the forces are going to have to take a more pragmatic veiw to "soft" drug use away from duty.

[Wigan Warrior]

Field Marshall Bob Marley:

“Herb is the healing of a nation, alcohol is the destruction.”

He also said,

Don't worry 'bout a thing,
'Cause every little thing gonna be all right

Which is not the best defence at a court martial, or BOI.

[mutleyfour]

Field Marshall Bob Marley also penned the Royal Signals song:

Were jammin

[Climebear]

The Helpful Stacker

blanket testing

Oh the irony!:D


Celer et Audax - have a good Christmas

[Kitbag]

I'm afraid the discussion so far here worries me.
This should be a no-brainer. Use drugs in the military- lose your job and any accumulated benefits, and additionally it should be seen by the state as deliberately making oneself unemployed so benefits don't kick in.
Same goes for drink (and here I am as guilty as most forum members. Luckily I got away without hurting myself or anyone else, but would definitely counsel against such activity now).

[mutleyfour]

The trouble is that the rules on drug taking prior to entry have changed. It used to be the case that class A use precluded you from service but now you simply declare you will give it up prior to service. How many class A users can simply give it up let alone those that live on the so called sociably acceptable ladder at level C.

[Dan D'air]

I can well recall coming back from Kosovo to be met by the CDT team. Upon being informed that they were going to test only half of us, I duly volunteered, if for no other reason than to keep busy, at which point everyone who had a hand in the air was released and was thoroughly well lubricated in the mess by the time that the "they won't bother to pick me" brigade had finished weeing into sample bottles. We, of course were just pi$$ing ourselves.

[WPH]

In my opinion the article states exactly why more people are getting caught - because they want to! The operational tempo is so high and the effects of the current ops so intense, that many are desperate to leave and this is an easy way out. If this is the case then it is rather sad that our people are desperate enough to throw away a pension and gain a dishonourable discharge just to leave the Service. It seems more than a coincidence to me that this increase has occured at the same time as we have seen a rapid increase in Ops and fierce fighting. Is this just another indicator of our failure to properly look after our troops?

[Mr C Hinecap]

It is still less than 1% of the Army as a whole. Not really bad statistics when you look at most of them being a 'prime mischief' demographic group of young lads and lasses with disposable income. Compare that to the rest of society.

[Dan D'air]

Mr C Hinecap,

At last a voice of reason, though I'd bet that the media would never see it that way.

[TANTALLON]

Like others in this thread, I also support zero tolerance of alcohol abuse in the workplace and the use of so-called "recreational drugs" at any time. I recently retired after over 30 years service and was randomy tested on a number of occasions at ISK and Waddo. I was always appalled by the fascist attitude of the drug testers most of whom seemed to be WOs who would not have been out of place as prison guards at Belsen. I also wonder how many other sections of society would tolerate having their place of work under lockdown while being marched to a cubicle and observed while filling a specimen jar. If this practise was conducted in MOD, how many civilians would fail? Even better lets line them in the House of Commons, I wonder how many positive samples would be discovered in that den of hypocrits.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Perhaps if people are deliberately failing CDT as an easy way out of the forces, there should be a mandatory two years in the glasshouse prior to discharge.

Whilst it may work in some civvy corporations, to suggest tolerance of drug use in the armed forces shows a lack of understanding of the responsibility placed on individual servicemen. When guns, aircraft, artillery, tanks etc come into play, there is no room for any drug use at all. A nice, workable, simple to understand policy is one of zero tolerance - no exceptions or mitigation.

[Magnersdrinker]

If for instance the MOD was to relax its laws and allow such a thing , then just think of all the people who have been discharged come out of the woodwork and claim compensation for unfair discharge. I think the MOD should not even be considering this idea. Drink I know is an evil too and cant be condoned but where do you draw the line of enjoyment and working your life for a company that lets face does not give a flying f*** about you . The lads getting shot at all day have seen things many of us will never or could imagine , fear stress you name it , Drugs is maybe there way of dealing with it , after all what support programs are in place for troops returning.

[goudie]

I wonder how many alcoholics there are in the Services?
Heavy drinking is the chosen pastime for many Service people.
Not condeming it (I like a drink too) but question the double standards of testing for illegal drugs whilst ignoring legal ones

[Bladdered]

Goudie

"Heavy drinking is the chosen pastime for many Service people."


Absolutely ridiculous comment:ugh:What evidence have you got for this arbitary throwaway. To suggest that the services are populated by drunks is total b:mad:s.

Ed

[goudie]

To suggest that the services are populated by drunks is total b:mad:s.



Are you a Sun journalist? I made no such suggestion. I speak from my Service experiences. Have you had any of that?

[Sand4Gold]

:D Nice one goudie - another priceless comment; I thought your reply (124) on the F3 Thread was a real cracker - the only Google search on the matter comes straight back to you - :D


AA

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Alcohol is the common counter-argument but I think there is a significant distinction. Most people can use alcohol in a safe, controlled way, maybe get a little tipsy in the bar, but then sleep it off and turn up to work fresh as a daisy. In those cases where people overdo it and turn up to work p1ssed or incapable due to a hangover (or don't turn up at all) then they should rightly be disciplined - and I know of cases of that happening.

Most illegal drugs on the other hand, leave the users' abilities impaired for some significant time after use. I recall from RAFCAM briefings that cannabis use causes impaired coordination, reactions and decision making for about a week. LSD can cause all sorts of mental problems for years after use. Many drugs cannot be used in any sort of controlled way due to their addictive nature and will inevitably destroy the user and spiral out of control. Apart from these issues is the fact that a drug user is voluntarily a law breaker: is that compatible with the ethos and standards of military life?

I really do not think any sort of tolerance or leniency is the answer to the drugs issue. Such action seems to me much like the police and govt's policy of improving crime figures by decriminalizing everything and fixing the stats. It is ironic that these days booze and fags seem to be more of a crime than e's and 'erb.

[goudie]

Thanks Max, answers my question.

[airborne_artist]

cannabis use causes impaired coordination, reactions and decision making for about a week

Plenty of evidence now surfacing that continued use of cannabis, which is now much stronger than 30 years ago, can cause long mental health problems including depression and schizophrenia. Royal College of Shrinks paper (http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinformation/mentalhealthproblems/alcoholanddrugs/cannabisandmentalhealth.aspx)

Military life can be tough enough on the individual without inducing more problems.

[GPMG]

...........chill out dude.......

I was surprised when having left the Corps, my mate listed off how many blokes in my last troop did E, grass or coke.

I was very surprised that I had never heard about it, even though I had hoped that I was a 'main' member of the troop. He said that although I got on very well with those blokes, the reason that I never caught on or that I never guessed was that it was a very secretive thing and if you werent into it then you just didn't know about it.

I have to admit that I was pretty disapointed that blokes i relied upon were doing this. Ive tried the odd bit off grass since leaving but I was a civvie then. It's ok, and better than drink IMO, but I guess I'm too much of a square to take it up.

[Bladdered]

Goudie

Sun journo, no matey. Just plenty of time under my belt and sand between my toes, but no more thankfully;)

[Dan D'air]

Bladdered,

Goudie is (sadly) very right in what he says. There are a great many in the mob, both male and female, who use alcohol, in varying quanties, for both good and bad. It has always been a fairly endemic part of the culture and despite the regular campaigns to reduce its incidence, almost certainly will continue to be so.

[Lyneham Lad]

Lots of interesting responses but no-one so far has wondered why, just when the Armed Forces have been getting lots of positive press and the Gov coming under pressure to heal the covenant, a story like this is released...........

Cynical, moi? No, heaven forbid.

Just for the record - I do not support the taking of Class A, B or C drugs.

[Lamenting Navigator]

There was some army Major on the radio this morning talking about alcohol being the drug of choice, and speculating that the increase in drug taking was not only because the army is a microcosm of society in general but that incidents of drug taking had gone up because of ops... hmm...

Lyneham Lad - I too share your cynicism. As I dose up on paracetemol / ibruprofen and anything else I can raid - probably whisky - to stave off this cold before hitting the ground running again on Sunday, I have to wonder where this story comes from. No press release from the ivory tower of the MoD spin machine on their website (unless it's buried somewhere) and when was the last time that the media knew how big a battalion is?

Something not right.

[minigundiplomat]

I can't help but feel that most people have missed the point here! increased Op Tempo, increased marriage breakdown, increased psychiatric referrals, increased positive results for CDT. I'm not normally a betting man, but I'll bet a Chinook Print that D&D is on the increase as well.

Why?

Because more and more people are witnessing and dealing with events that they are not trained to deal with, and the MOD support infrastucture is inadequate. The Can Do attitude is costing dear at the moment. Ask anyone involved with Combat Stress.

Not all cases are caused by the Op Tempo, but I bet the increase is.

Want to help, donate to Combat Stress. Wanna just explain it away as losers taking dope, type a reply

MGD

[Two's in]

I somehow suspect that the reference to soldiers taking drugs to circumvent the PVR route is added simply for dramatic effect in the article, either that or the soldiers in question are really crap at the statistical analysis invloved to calculate how long it will take you to;

(a) Start taking drugs.
(b) Get caught taking drugs by the CDT.
(c) Get thrown out for all of the above.

Much easier to sign on the line and wait one would think...


Just to add to the good old perennial of Booze versus Drugs, you can be a confirmed alchoholic and well on your way to an unpleasant and untimely demise without breaking a single law, whereas it is much harder to be a drug user without breaking laws or exposing yourself to the culture of crime associated with the purchase and use of drugs.

[Green Flash]

Heavy drinking is the chosen pastime for many Service people
A few years ago and cheap booze in RAFG; well, maybe. But today? No. Wrong. We all like a drop now and again but compared to the Cold War days I reckon consumption is down a helluva lot.

[L J R]

The Quote was MANY - not ALL. Define MANY. For some people, the term many may be a percentage as 'high' as 10%. Yes Alcohol is the choice of MANY. BUT who cares if you are not one of the many. Abstainence is also the choice of MANY.


The real point is: How will MoD manage the 'problem' - as opposed to using the BOOT.

[goudie]

Abstainence is also the choice of MANY


During much of the 'Cold War' period alcohol was the only recreational drug available. Wherever our forces served it was always available and cheap hence its popularity. The availability of alternative rec. drugs today could be a reason for the reduction in alcohol consumption.

[minigundiplomat]

Historically, the military have been guilty of overdoing the vino collapso on a regular basis. Someone mentioned the days of RAFG, and my memories of Gutersloh are extremely hazy at times.
What amuses me, and throws water on the 'were all alcoholics camp' fire, is the fact that over the last 10 years, the civvy's are drinking more, and the military are drinking less.
Consider the amount of time we are spending in 'Dry areas' and the pressures of modern military life. I would say that in my part of the world, there are more duties, secondary duties, and night flying, with far less people to shoulder the burden.
Messes are a shadow of their former selves, as more and more people saddle themselves with mortgages and live off base. And although I can't back this up, the kids joining today seem much older and wiser than when I joined.
so, is alcohol a problem in today's military? Yes, but probably nowhere near as much as it was during the tax free RAFG years.

[Dan D'air]

Ah yes, the good old days of RAFG.

When I was just in, (and before my Aircrew days), there was a Bucc which crashed just outside Weeze, (1983 to be exact) and I will never, ever forget being sat in the mess next to a guy who, pissed and upon hearing the alarm, said "Well, Juliet WAS ( juliet being, of course, the aircraft)". It shocked me then, still shocks me now and was then and is to me at least still the epitome of casual, NIMBY drinking.

I have since seen, on a regular basis, kites pile in for various reasons. Alcohol is not normally counted as a factor, either from an Aircrew or Liney angle because of politics. What really, really galls me, is that there are still an incredible amount of guys who seem to regard 9 or 10 pints a night as a normal thing.

Discuss????

Lets face it, It is endemic, it is a problem and it does cause problems.

[TheInquisitor]

It's strange, how it's almost always the same voices that decry the "Destructive Alcohol Culture" allegedly pervading the Forces, are the same voices that espouse relaxation of the rules governing illegal drug use. Coincidence?

Aside from the effects of illegal drugs (the whole reason for them BEING illegal!), one cannot partake of them without commiting a serious offence - this alone is sufficient to maintain the strict standards that the Service(s) apply. For this reason, if no other, the perennial "Alcohol vs Drugs" argument is void IMHO.

[SirToppamHat]

I wonder how many of the positive drugs tests occur during initial training? It wouldn't take many people joining with the habit to impact significantly on the overall %age.

STH

[November4]

I wonder how many of the positive drugs tests occur during initial training? It wouldn't take many people joining with the habit to impact significantly on the overall %age.

Don't think any will be from training - it used to be that new recruits were safe for the first 6th months after they joined.

CivPol have just had CDT introduced - they are tested BEFORE being accepted.

[english_electric]

Hi! I hope that you don't mind me making a comment. I am a Police Officer and feel that my employers approach to drug testing is naive in the extreme. Whilst I feel that it is abhorrent for anyone in such a position to take an illegal drug, I fear that they will hardly ever catch the persons who do it.

This is because that the cozart drug testing that they use, analyses a swab of saliva which is fine if you have taken drugs VERY recently but they don't seem to realise that most class A drugs metabolise out of your system in as little as seven hours (for opiates) and up to 24hrs for Ecstacy and Cocaine. Cannabis is the worst one, which can last from 7 days to a month (if you are a heavy user). What this means is that if people are daft enough to use cannabis (Class C), then they get caught and booted out but if they use Class 'A' drugs, they will never get caught unless they are a proper addict or get tested after coming back to work straight away after a weekend on a 'bender', which is unlikely as we mainly work shifts and get several days off at a time. They don't even test for LSD.

The goverment also make us drug test people who are arrested for certain 'trigger' offences, presumably for statistical purposes which are very flawed in that not once have I ever seen someone test positive for Opitates, but nearly always for Cocaine. This is not because nobody takes Opiates, it's because the drug is nearly always out of their system at the time of the test. What a waste of time collecting such flawed statistics!!!! :ugh:

You can test hair samples which remain contaminated for up to six months or maybe more but they don't have a power to take those as far as I know. Also, if you tell them that you have a drug issue (even just before the test) they don't boot you out and instead send you to occupational health (well, so they say but I don't exactly believe them!).

Each week, we get an internal notice which tells you about people who have retired, resigned or been kicked out of the job e.t.c. and how many people do you think have been chucked out for drugs since CDT was introduced?

NIL as far as I know. If someone did get caught for it, they would not be able to resist plastering it all over the intranet. Also, from looking back at the stats, there has been no marked increase in people being kicked out since the CDT was introduced so I can only assume that they simply don't catch anyone as even if it was all low key, the stats would have gone up!

In any case, I know of one guy who tested positive for cannabis and got away with it simply by saying that he "passively smoked" it.

Yeah right:bored: