Family helicopter.

[Rotormotor]

Sounds silly I know, but I'd like to know which one would be best? For instance, there's me, wife and three kids of various ages all growing up fast. So, if I was going to purchase a helicopter for the primary purpose of transporting said crew plus baggage for a weekend away plus fuel for a decent trip, which single could do this?

Would the B206 be ok, would the Ec120 be overkill or not up to it? I also like the look of the Enstrom 480, would that be up to it?

Apols if this is a repost; I have read through the various helicopter type threads, but haven't come across this particular conundrum.

Also; how many hours as PPL(h) do I need to get insurance cover to do this?

Thanks to you knowledgeable types! :ok:

Rotormotor.

[GoodGrief]

I'd say a Longranger would be your first choice.

But you will get as many opinions as there are helicopter types out there.

[spencer17]

From the family point of view I would recommend the EC120.:ok:
One of my former bosses had one. I flew it for about 1 year.
It's a nice and quite maschine. The kids dont have to wear headsets all the time. It has a huge cargo compartment that can carry a lot of kids stuff besides the Golfbags.

I can say nothing about the insurance, sorry.

Spencer17

[docstone]

Size, speed, power, space, support....pilots' ship - no brainer

[rotorspeed]

Go for an AS350 (single Squirrel). Older ones well maintained are very reliable too and can look new with a good paint and trim - from £350k - £400k. B206 good solid plodder but starting to get cramped for 3 in the back, slower and noisier. B407 much more expensive to buy than older AS350 so probably unrealistic for first turbine.

With AS350 plenty of baggage space and scope for 6 people with 4 in the back, or great comfort for 3 in the back. Big front doors for rear access safer too than rear doors, which sooner or later will not be closed properly or have belts left hanging out! Easy and quiet to fly with just 30 sec shutdown too.

There are a few around with autopilots which is a big benefit, though you'll trade payload. Even base 350 powerful enough for family use, though B2 and B3 mean you can fill both tanks and pax up. At a price though - as ever, you get what you pay for!

[Rotormotor]

Thanks for the replies guys (and gals), I appreciate them.

Goodgrief: Never thought of the Long Ranger, will consider.

Spencer17: What's not to like about the 120? Strong contender on the quiet front.

Barnzie/Rotorspeed: Didn't consider the As350, thought they'd be too big and powerful for a low hours PPL, but will have a look.

Docstone: Even though I didn't mention it initially I do keep looking at the 407 on the Bell website; it certainly serves well in its military guise doesn't it? Hmmm, deep thought. :ok:

Poor old 480 just never seemed to figure....

Thanks again everybody, this has certainly helped to polarise my thinking. I'll give the thread a bump when I've (finally) decided. :D

Rotormotor.

[docstone]

if only it had more power and more aft cyclic authority.....good 'drive by' appeal, but feels unfinished to me

[spencer17]

@Rotormotor. It could have a little more power. The AS350 Squirrel is a great maschine but fuel consumption compared to the EC is much higher. The EC has the best cargo space of all.

@docstone. Never had any problems with aft cyclic. Ok where power is an issue the Squirrel is the better choice but as family ship the EC will do a really good job. Only look at the huge cargo space.

@Rotorspeed. Where does the Squirrel have "plenty of baggage space"??

Spencer17

[skidbiter2]

Comparing the as350 to the 407

350 has more baggage space, two side & one rear lockers (407 has one rear)
More comfort for pax in the 350 (you don't have to face backwards and intertwine your legs).
You are all in the same room so to speak in the 350, the 407 is the same layout as the 206, you are separated from the rear pax, could be good if you want to get away from the kids, but I don't like it, can't see if every one is buckled in or behaving.
The 350 seats are more comfortable in my opinion, 407 has no lumber support.

The 407 is a little faster, but how much of a hurry are you in anyway?

From what I hear, the EC120 is under powered, well they are a sporty looking comparison to the 206 power wise.

My choice would be the AS350BA, sure you could get a B2 OR B3 but a BA would do you fine, if it is within your budget.
You can get a double front pax seat if you needed to seat 6 pax.

Just my observations and opinions.

oh, for starting I guess the 407 and B3 would be the easiest as they pretty much start them selves with a flick of the switch, you have to modulate the BA,B2, but it's a no brainer really.

[Dynamic Component]

"The 407 is a little faster.."
It is faster than the BA and B2, but not the B3. Gotto compare apples with apples.:}
I would say it all depends on what experience you have. If you're a 500+ hr pilot the 407 or AS350 would be good, but if you have les experience than that they might be a handfull. Unless you fly with a safety pilot until you gain more experience.

My personal choise would have to be a BA as skidbiter2 sugested.:ok:
Don't get me wrong, the EC120 is a great heli, but people expect that they can fill up with feul, full pax and some luggage. Not possible in my experience unless the people are all under 65kg.

Just my 2c:}

[serf]

Sounds simple, pop out and buy a helicopter!

[helicopter-redeye]

What can you afford as this drives the answer to a greater degree ... ?

[Rotormotor]

Skidbiter2; thanks for that, great insight that I didn't have before, practical and to the point.

Heli redeye; it may drive the question from your point of view, but I am not looking at it that way right now. I hesitated to ask this question, but having spoken to various sales-people I came away even more confused, and filled with 'the other one is rubbish because....' type answers. Which often contained information that didn't answer my simple question, and because of my low hours and low experience I didn't understand.

What I didn't want to do was pop on here with many questions that you for instance may consider trivial. So I read all the relevant threads, on this and other forums, that I could find, but was just left with the title of this thread.

What I keep hearing is that Eurocopter support is not up to the support of Bell. I even e-mailed Eurocopter asking why they didn't power upgrade the Ec120, but they didn't answer.

So; heart pulls me toward the EC120 - I saw a metallic blue one static at Cambridge airport and it looked fantastic - but head is saying Bell because of the support.

I admit that I am not yet in the position that you are. I can't make instant, well-judged buying decisions about helicopters based on experience, at least not yet.

So when I've got the why's and wherefore's properly sorted in my head I'll come back with the money questions. :ok:

Thanks again for all the replys and the PM's too,

regards,

Rotormotor.

[Backward Blade]

Sir,

You having asked this question probably means that you can indeed afford it, although maint and fuel will probably piss you off depending on how much you can afford it if you get my meaning.

As far as storage is concerned if you want ski's or shovels or what-not, you can order a basket for any 350 without cheeks from DART in Canada.
It has a roomy cabin and everyone can see each other. Any 350 with a french engine will suck fuel HUGE! I don't know if they are certified in UK but the lycomings are quite efficient, and the newer 600-700 FX's are just as powerful as the B2 with less fuel burn and parts are cheaper.

The EC 120 is a great overall machine, faster than any 206 model, but power is an issue when trying to Vertical out of a spot anywhere near gross weight. It will vertical out if you have "quiet" hands but it Translates very poorly. VERY POORLY. The baggage compartment is a huge plus but you may or not have w+b issues if not paying attention. Spare parts for the VEMD are very hard to get, but for a low timer very easy to use pilot wise. Great safety characteristics, and easy on fuel, and alot faster than a 206 or 206 L. Do a W+B and you can even take out the aft cargo door to haul longer cargo.

An L4 will serve you very well and considerably cheaper than a 407. Both can vertical out quite well. Obviously the 407 quite faster. You should be able to get a basket for the 407 as well.

As far as maintenance is concerned make sure you find out who services which machines in your area. Go talk to some of their private clients and see how things measure up. Also take into account how many hours you will be flying in any given period. If you take this under consideration it can possibly relieve you of any worries regarding support issues timewise.

Lastly, if you are buying a Eurocopter they may be able to serve you better if you buy in to a maintenance program. Not enough room here but you should ask. It will make some of your more expensive components a little easier to handle should you have issues while sucking a little more out of you for each hour flown.

Good luck sir.

PS

Can you afford a Pilot LOL

[albatross]

If " Self flown" Think of 206L-2 LongRanger, AS 350 Astar or perhaps a AS355 Twinstar if "overwater" is a consideration. Easy to fly - not too complicated - various models available for not "too" much money.
If money is no object the field is open - a call to marketing depts of various manufactures should produce flights in all helicopters you are interested in.
I vote S-92 - if money is really no object.

[206 jock]

Lots of people on here dismiss the JetRanger as a kind of 'yesterday machine', but having owned one for 5 years, it's been a great machine for me. If you intend only to use it with all 5 of the family up, there probably are other machines out there that can do the job better, although they WILL cost you more. The one thing I've leaerned in owning helicopters is that they cost more than the guy who sold it to you said it will!! So make sure you have deep pockets, not just for the purchase....

And if you think that you might - like me - travel round on your own from time to time (hell! flying is fun!), then don't surround yourself with even more seats: my rough rule of thumb is that costs increase directly in line with the number of seats. Depending on how old your kids are, I'd only contemplate an EC120 or a B206: there's nothing in your mission profile that tells me you need any more helicopter.

[Rotormotor]

Again, a great set of replies guys (and gals -apols to the Whirling ones!), I'm humbled and also gaining in knowledge by the day :ok:

Backward Blade: Great post Sir! And great info. There are a lot of other factors other than the basic buy-in price, as you have pointed out, and a fool and his/her money are easily parted at any price point, especially in aviation. Which is why I asked Pprune for its wisdom.
Thanks for the 120 gen, I need to hear it because I keep going gooey around them. I have to say that although Eurocopter seem to be more modern than Bell, I am favouring the latter at the moment. I am formulating what I think is a good idea, which I will share soon, and it does favour Bell, L4, or 206B.
Thanks for the piloting offer, maybe when I'm about to buy Eurocopter! LOL. ;)

Albatross: (can't get John Cleese out of my head now "Allll-ba-trosss!") It will be self-flown though 'over-the-water' not really an issue, as yet. S-92, yeah right, I'll get one for ferrying me to the Falcon 9 series.....As if..:D
As to flights; so far I have paxed in a B206, an EC120, and an As350. To be honest I liked them all, and wasn't aware of the 206 feeling 'old'. But the 350 felt considerably quicker and fair belted up into the blue. As said the 120 was the quietest, but I loved the Jetbox 'wocky-wocky' sound. I have spoken to all the respective sales reps, and I have to say the best case was made by the Bell rep for a new 206!

206Jock: I haven't dismissed it, and I think you have my mission profile bang on. Yes I have to have the capability of taking the tribe, but I reckon it will be mostly me, or me and a chum. Which leads me to the most pertinent question to move me on in my quest: Could the 206 take five of us? And how far?

Thanks again to all for taking the time to answer, much appreciated.

Rotormotor.

[helonorth]

A 206 B weighs in the neighborhood of 2000 pounds, leaving you with
about 1200 pounds to play with between fuel and payload. A 206 is
going to burn about 200 PPH of fuel. Money no object: Bell 407. I am
fortunate to fly it, and at full fuel, I still have 1200 pounds for payload.
It performs at gross weight about the same as when i'm by myself.
Reliable and a hoot to fly. My 2 cents.

[206 jock]

My current 206 is a light one (sub 1800lbs), and with three variety-sized kids and if you and the missus aren't too blobby, you can take easily enough fuel for 2.5 hours, which will get you the thick end of 300 miles.

A new 206 is a nice machine: I'm just going through the motions of bringing in a 1983 machine whose airframe has been compeltely refurbished and most components zero-timed. I'm hoping to enjoy the "joy of new" feeling on a machine that won't make my eyes water too much!

If you hurry up, you can still bring into the UK via Denmark VAT-free (if it's a personal machine).

[Bravo73]

A wise man once told me: If buying an aircraft for personal use, try and buy one with 2 extra seats than you'll regularly be using. (ie for regular trips for a family of five, buy a 7 seater.)

Also, helicopters with a 'combined cabin' (ie AS350/5, EC120, EC130) tend to be more popular with families.

Just my 2c.

[MSP Aviation]

Bravo73 is correct. Expect to use two seats less than the hi-capacity version of the machine has with good utility. So, expect to be able to go five-up in an AS350 or three-up in a B206 with the requisite amount of fuel and baggage.

[helonorth]

MSP aviation: What are you talking about?

[nigelh]

i think he means you can go all up 4 in a 350 and 3 in a 206 if you want to have plenty fuel and some luggage. ( 350 is 6 place in uk 7 place elsewhere)
In fact the 350 BA, b2 and b3 have bags of power and will almost certainly manage a full 6 up incl kids , some luggage and plenty of fuel.

[rockpecker]

Hi Rotormotor, I flew my AS350B for 4 years as a family vehicle, wife, 2 kids, luggage and full fuel, its the most wonderful ship there is. If you can still find one, they are hard to come by and pricey, especially as you go up to B2. We live at altitude (5500ft AMSL) and the EC120 is no good here, nice to look at, but wont lift the skin off a rice pudding on a hot day with more than 4 souls on board. At the coast its OK. Jetranger similarly limited. Longranger and 407 are big guns for family cars, but if budget is not a problem go for it. I still think the Squirrel is tops.
:D:D:D:ok:

[Rotormotor]

Hi everybody,

Helonorth: Thanks and another vote for the 407, I could be leaning...?

Bravo73: Hmmm? After chatting with the wife and various sprogs they seem to agree with this; it appears there may be 'It's your turn to go backwards' kind of arguments. Another for the As350.

MSPaviation: I've 'got' this now, and this is the crux of what I didn't understand at the beginning.

nigelh: Another vote for the As350! Thanks for that, and the power reference guide.

rockpecker: Thanks for taking the time. Are you up in the Rockies or something like that? Another vote for the As350, but you seem to reckon that the 407 is more expensive to run? But that's what the 407 chaps say about the As350 too?

So it seems that I've narrowed it down to the Bell 407 and the As350, and there's 45 350's on the Uk register (44 with absent friends) and just five 407's -that I could see- so more people and organisations have plumped for the As350.

Yet I keep seeing reference to the poor support of Eurocopter, and indeed have read a few threads on this here. But in fairness I have also read of the Agusta/Bell parts non-conformance thing too.

I would ask then, all those of you who have recommended the As350, what is your experience of Eurocopter's support? I don't intend to bash them, I sincerely want to know. PM me if you wish. As a potential private owner, the prospect of an expensive missed summer doesn't appeal much.

In closing for now; it would seem to me that the As350 is the best 'family' oriented choice, but the Bell 407 is the best supported and, perhaps crucially, more reliable?

Thanks everybody for your continued support and time taken, it is much appreciated. :ok::D

Rotormotor.

[MSP Aviation]

MSP aviation: What are you talking about?In an AS350, one can expect to take five people with full baggage and full fuel (6 in some models). In a B206, three people with baggage and fuel. To carry full fuel and a good amount of baggage in almost any light aircraft, expect to lose two seats.
By hi-capacity, I meant the most dense seating arrangement available. Some AS350s have 7.

[gov1]

So what about an A119 Koala???

[docstone]

Ouch, 119 expensive but nice...and not sure about any UK aircraft though.

Rotormotor - careful you don't muddle the ill-fated Agusta/Bell joint venture with pure Bell - quite different

[skidbiter2]

I don't know if I would go as far to say the 407 is more reliable, have had more problems with little things going wrong while flying them than I have in squirrels, but I am sure there will be someone with an opposite opinion.
If you intend to do night flight, the gauges in the 407 will not impress you at all, and I have had quite a few problems with gauges or senders, and the LCD gauges are not cheap!
If you have snow deflectors on the 407, and you want the heater on, (which go hand in hand) It seems to suck in exhaust smell into the cabin when you are on the ground.
Grease every where - as it has expensive pitch bearings that need grease and then it gets tossed every where.
These are not big deals, but just little things that bug me about the 407, really the only good thing I can say about it, is that it is better for long lining out of than the squirrel.
From any engineers I have spoke to about it, the squirrel is a lot easier to work on than bell, I think it was designed for engineers really.
I don't know how many hours you think you would do a year, but as a private ship I'm not sure if you would have to many maintenance issues if not doing 100 hours a month?

To cap off

I personally have had more maintenance issues with the 407 than squirrel in general.
I enjoy flying the 407 with a line on, but if I had to use a heli for more passenger/utility/private type work I would choose the squirrel (if I had the choice).

Oh, and from what I have seen, the 407 is in just as much demand as the squirrel at the mo, so both are demanding hi prices.

my 20c worth

[FFF]

I did a aircraft acquisition course which I found useful for selecting the correct aircraft type on the manner in which it is to be used. Value of an aircraft is not just about cost, but suitability too (although your budget will certain figure into the equation). The course also involved analysing cost of the aircraft over its entire life (as well as the DOCs).

Investing in this sort of education is certainly worthwhile - even if it is for a one off personal purchase. Of course, there are people that you can pay to make these decisions for you if you haven't got the time.

I know its some way off, but if you can wait I suggest attending Heli-Expo in Feb and getting on some courses to learn more about the process. It won't replace real experience, which is what many people in this forum have to offer, but it levels the playing field somewhat. It can give more confidence when going through the actual acquisition bit.

Having said all that, going from the info you have alluded to, I would err towards the AS350, but I also really like the B407 (if you don't need ample baggage space - maybe all your stuff we already be at your destination, such as a second home or whatever).

Good luck,

FFF

[Impress to inflate]

Stop playing with little machines and think big. Go for a bus of helicopters, one the whole family, friends and relatives can fly in as well. How about something like an S61, AS332L or 214ST. 18 plus seats plenty of room, air stair door, possably a bog or bar servise.

Go on, THINK BIG.

[Dynamic Component]

Rotormotor,

My experience with the AS350 has been excellent regarding the service from Eurocopter. The problem comes when you start dealing with Turbomeca. Don't get me wrong- I love the engine....just hate the customer service. Might be a option to buy a BA or B2 and put the Honeywell engine in when the time is right:}

[Rotormotor]

Hi everybody! Thanks again for the replies and PM's :ok:

gov1: never really considered the A119, too big and heavy I think. Also, wasn't the only one in the UK a rally support vehicle?

docstone: Hello again; I won't confuse the two, I just mentioned it in a sense of fair play.

skidbiter2: Great post, you obviously have a lot of experience. I haven't quite got to night flying yet, but I'd like to try and master it at some stage. I'd love to do 100 hours a month, but I doubt it, I have to do some work...;) I think that the reasons you outlined are also the reasons that these two machines are still in demand and holding their prices.:ok:

FFF: I would err towards the AS350, but I also really like the B407
Got it in one there! That's the nub of the problem. I also really like your use of the word 'allude'! I'm not being deliberately circumspect, I really am trying to appreciate both helicopters in every way. I could wait until Heli-expo in Feb, though I did want to have started the process by then, but you make a good point. Was your aircraft acquisition course in the US? Thanks for the reply.

Impress to inflate: I do think big, it's just that my accountant hasn't quite grasped the concept yet, he keeps telling me that I have fiscal limitations, and that I have to consider running costs! I just wish he'd get with 'my' acquisition program :ugh: Pee Ess. The tribe's enough; in-laws and friends too:eek:!

Dynamic Component: I'm not aware of the engine-swap thing with the As350, is that an end-of-life thing or routine maintenance? Thanks for the great heads-up for Eurocopter service, you are the third positive vote for them. Unfortunately nobody has said anything good about Turbomeca service? Anybody?

Great replies again, and great PM's too. I have been privately chided for discounting the Longranger, and ignoring the fact that it fits my needs perfectly. Also I have had another vote for the Longranger, so I mustn't ignore it.

FFF got it right with the As350 leaning; but now I have two Bells to hold in consideration, the 407 and the 206L4.:confused: I can't ignore them despite their somewhat 'ancient' architecture ;). One Rotorhead runs both types and tells me that he prefers the 407. This about sums it up. Any more two cents worth would be greatly appreciated. More soon in this acquisition saga! :ok::D

Rotormotor.

[docstone]

407 may look old fashioned on the outside, but underneath its pretty leading edge stuff - Kiowa military head, composites galore, gearbox will run oil dry for hours at 120%...and no Turbomeca AOG support to fight with.

[rotors88]

I would be going a Bell product, good support & flow of parts. Much cheaper & consistent than the French. The L4 is a great machine & if your funds allow then go the 407. You wont be disappointed. Fast, smooth, oodles of power to get you out of any situation & the rear facing pax will get used to it, at least they can look at each other when they chat. I have operated all the machines mentioned & still prefer the 407 to them all. No surprises, heaps of grunt, maintenance - no problems. The L4 is also a great machine that wont let you down. If you are funds limited further then the 206 is a solid investment, an honest machine that has proven itself & is a tireless performer, depends on how many bums, bags & distances you wanna go. Stick with Bell & you wont be let down

[AndrewTaylor]

:confused:Just reading the comments about a 206 via Denmark to escape vat. I am looking for a JR3 at the moment. Please fill me in a bit more on rules and regs.

Thanks,
AT

[Rotormotor]

:ok:Docstone: Post edited to include forgotten smiley! Didn't intend to impugn Bell!

Rotors88: Another vote for the 407 and the Longranger! There's been strong support for both camps, Eurocopter and Bell, and strong, well-reasoned arguments for the As350 of all variants, and the B206 in normal and Longranger forms. But for me the overriding feeling has been the sheer affection which pilots hold for the Bell 407.

I've also come across similar affection on the military forums, where pilots express their confidence and enjoyment in flying the Oh-58D Kiowa Warrior version. I suppose you can't say better than that really?:D

So, apologies to all those that supported the As350, now it comes down to looking at just the 407 and the Longranger; though I am leaning towards the 407 right now. I know you said this in the first place Docstone, I just had to work through it all! :ok:

I have been looking through various heli-sales websites, mainly the AV one, and I have noticed a number of both the above variants for sale on the 'N' registrations. Can anyone explain to me the implications of 'importing' one? If I buy one (from Ireland say) can it stay 'N' registered in the UK, or do I have to change it to 'G'? Does this lead to problems with different equipment not being 'G' certified and such?

Thanks again for all your replies and the time taken doing so, much appreciated. :D

Even though I haven't advanced much in real experience yet, I feel as though I have a much better understanding of what I am getting into, and the implications of said in both money and mechanical terms. Much more so than I had just a week ago, and it's all down to the good folk of Rotorheads! :ok: :D:D:D

Thanks again, all replies and Pm's have been much appreciated!

Rotormotor. :ok:

[rotors88]

The 206L is much easier to stow in a narrow place with only 2 blades, does not quiet have the reserve grunt the 407 has but none the less, its a comfortable, reliable, safe & honest machine. A dream to auto & runs very economically with few if any surprises. Good resale too. Mind you if hanger space & funds were not in question I would not hesitate to go with the 407, there are very few singles than can perform like her, maybe the B3 (just) but at what price?. Have sat on the ground for 4 months waiting on French parts so they can smoke me, Bell has not let me down like that..