R.I.P Skyhawks

[kiwi chick]

Tis sad, bloody sad, I say. :{

Skyhawks (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4322648a11.html)

[Norwester]

It is sad. They should never have been withdrawn from RNZAF service.

I was amazed how many people in the office wanted to talk to me about the two RAAF F-111's that recently spent a couple of days zipping through the Southern Alps to use their terrain following radar.

I'm no fan of the Skyhawk, but more pointy-jet noise around NZ wouldn't go amiss.

[harrogate]

Those 2 F-111s you mentioned were captured at Auckland airport by a UK aviation snapper on his hols and posted on a popular aviation website. Maybe why you were hounded so much? Maybe not.

Absolutely nothing gets past those camera chaps. They amaze me in that respect.

[Bring_back_Buck]

Bet Uncle Helen will be chuffed to bits to see them like that.
Whats happening with the Macchies, heard a rumour that moves were afoot to bring them back...

[Like This - Do That]

BBB Richard Hart or someone equally wealthy could offer to buy the RNZAF some Gripens or Super Hornets but Helengrad would refuse the offer.

Wasn't she one of those who objected to the A-4s being purchased in the first place decades ago? I guess the winners get to write the history .... this has nothing to do with defence of the dominion, but all about culture wars.

BTW I love your nom-de-PPRuNe .... Bring Back Buck indeed! I haven't heard that for years. No disrespect to Whetton but Buck really was class ....any man who loses a bunch of teeth and gets a ball torn loose from his scrotum and STILL PLAYS ON (!!!!!) gets my vote. I heard he's been a bit crook recently ... hope he's on the mend.

[L J R]

What do Jag mates and Skyhawk dudes have in common - They just don't let go....Welcome to the new century.

[Gainesy]

An old one: "The RNZAF is to issue an RFP for a Threat".:)

[Sqwark2000]

Little bit of thread drift here, but does anyone know what the Aussie King Air is doing in CHCH?? It's been parked on the Military/Deep Freeze ramp for weeks and does not appear to have moved.

Seems to be rather poor utilization....

It was very good to hear the chest thumping roar of an afterburner take off from a mil jet in NZ again (re: 2 x F111 in CHCH recently) . They drew reasonable crowds to the roof top observation level at the terminal for their departures and recoveries.

S2K

[Bring_back_Buck]

Just wish the sound of a proper military jet was a permanent fixture in NZ so I could come on home........

[harrogate]

Nope he was referring to these ones they never went anywhere near Akl:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4314723a11.html

the only 2 that have buzzed akl this year were back in march on their way to the whenuapai airshow.

their have been 3 visits from 6 sqn and 1 from 1 sqn this year with c-130j/h - caribous and kingairs coming across the ditch reguarly in the last fews month to upset the farmers and locals around the southern alps areas.
although they got a better reception than 3 sqn rnzaf did in Napier in particular from the guy and his pussy:

http://www.hbtoday.co.nz/localnews/s...&thesecondsubs

I got confused... I meant Christchurch.

Are these the two in the first article you posted?

http://www.auzl63.dsl.pipex.com/Publish/IMG_1734_mod.jpg

[John Hill]

So the Skyhawks will never fly again? Well all I can say is "Boo 'flipping whoo!"

How many millions did myself and other kiwi taxpayers spend on those things and what return did we ever see for our money? Helen did the right thing cancelling the F16s (or whatever they were) too.

[Bring_back_Buck]

Don't even think I can be arsed to give you a dignified, well thoughtout response.... GAYLORD

[kiwi chick]

:D :D :D

John Hill (if you're for real and not a wind-up)

Did you ever go to an airshow where one of these puppies was flying? :confused:

The biggest orgasm of my life - that's what I got for my money.

[Bring_back_Buck]

Really, if so, kiwi chick, if that is your real name... you totally need to get out more:)

[kiwi chick]

:E I may have been exaggerating slightly - but only to make a point!

(I saw the word on Google and thought it sounded appropriate :E )

[Bring_back_Buck]

Fair one, I remember seeing one of the mighty K's in my younger pre RAF days in Waiberia inverted at what must have been a somewhat (with the benefit of hindsight) illegal altitude looking hard as nails thinking that totally kicks the arse out of hole dwelling... Orgasim however, despite my best efforts, was not achieved..

[John Hill]

Oh dear! That was like throwing crackers in the chook house!

Now folks, I have worked on the fringe of the aviation industry since 1964, in some of the very places mentioned here including Ashburton and Woodbourne but also more recently in Baghdad, Kabul and Pyongyang so I am not un-excited by the technology but I am still at a loss to explain just what good Skyhawks were ever to NZ. Except for air show of course!:}

[Blacksheep]

A4s make good naval jets, you could have used them on your carriers. ;)

[John Hill]

A carrier eh? Dont go giving them ideas. The last time New Zealand had a real warship we did the smart thing and gave it away!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_New_Zealand_(1911) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_New_Zealand_(1911)

[BentStick]

I did a few RF111 lone rangers to Ohakea in the 90s working with 75SQN. The lack of support the RNZAF got (is getting) was appalling to behold (the old hangars are probably still raining roofing material).

I was often left wondering whether what the RNZAF did to survive was innovative or stupid (Ground refuelling Skyhawks via the ARP with engines running was one that springs to mind).

No offence meant here, Hei konei ra 75SQN - great bunch to work with.:cool:

[Bring_back_Buck]

Not too many chooks in your chook house judging by the massive (yawn) reaction you got in here John, maybe you should go fishing elsewhere....

[John Hill]

So it is true then? Absolutely nothing to justify the taxpayer expense of the expensive white elephants?

Meanwhile, I am not sorry to see them put out the back of the hangar.

[Blacksheep]

Absolutely nothing to justify the taxpayer expense of the expensive white elephants?They were justified by having control of New Zealand skies. A nation that doesn't possess air superiority in its own skies cannot control its coastline either. Give up defending your skies and the surrounding sea and its just a matter of time before your natural resources are plundered by foreign interests while New Zealand looks on helplessly.

Nothing new. Look what happened to the Maoris... :rolleyes:

[John Hill]

In which case the money would have been better spent on the P3s and the navy.

[herbaceous]

JOHN HILL, by your rationale you should not have car or house insurance until your house has burnt down or your car is nicked?
At least open your eyes to the real world.

[John Hill]

No, by my rationale I lock my house when I leave, I lock my car when I leave but I do not lay minefields in the lawn and I do not hire Blackwater to guard my car. It is all about resources appropriate to the threat.

[L J R]

Mr Hill, you are obviously blissfully underinformed about the threat. And this is not the place, nor do I have the time to explain.

[John Hill]

Thank you for your concern L J R.

[RileyDove]

Do they make a ship or P-3 as fast as a Skyhawk? Maybe a nation should aim to be able to control it's own airspace?

[Trojan1981]

There is plenty of argument for and against a fast jet capability for NZ.
The point is, if this part of the world ever becomes a hotspot (It easily could, due to hunger for dwindling resouces) NZ will be defenceless. It will take years to rebuild the capability and untill then NZ will not be able to deny an aggressor access to its EEZ.

[hoggsnortrupert]

John Hill: I happen to agree with you.
Trojan 1981: Please take the time and explain.
L.J.R: It maybe news to you “BUT” NZ has never ever been able to DENY an aggressor, ( by definition I refer to not a single lone aggressor but invasion of sorts)
NZ’s military aviation history is something this wee nation can be proud of.
In times past we took our men and machines to wars in far off lands, we bleed and died in all manner of ways, alongside, Brits, Aussies,Yanks, Israelies,Fijians, “just to name a few that readily come to mind.
It is not the fast jet issue that has been of concern to me, it has always been one of being able to defend ourselves for long enough until help arrives.( from where and who)
Getting back to the fast movers, they require specialized handling and runways.
Tactically now, in an attack on our nation the first to go would be communications, electricity, and runways, in all probability it would be a multiple strike on all three simultaneously ? now how you going to defend the country?.
In any form of defense, the countries topography is of immense importance.
It is with regard to NZ’s topographical features that our government has historically never bothered to address.
NZ is “similar” in essence to Switzerland, ( except for coastline).
In my humble opinion, under the ANZUS agreement, NZ should be contributing money and men to the RAAF on a continual basis, and pay for it, or contribute on a share per capita basis, the operational costs of their F18’s, @ F111’s, IE our “KNUCK’s” are always on secondment to Aussie.
Our shore lines and EEZ’s should be monitored by P3-B’s.
Our Navy ship numbers need to be increased.
Our Tactical support increased, with the likes of a lot of smaller aerial transports to utilize our topographical hill country strips.
Feel free to laugh and rubbish me if you want, but a bunch of defenders, kitted out for low level down amongst the weeds stuff,( Look up & shoot down) that can at a moments notice redeploy and continue the fight, from different locations.
More attack helicopters.
And last but not least: Compulsory military training at age 18, with lifetime military enrollment to retirement:
NZ has been dragging the chain for far too long, with far too much emphasis on peace keeping and the like.
Now back to LJR, perhaps we can agree on the threat, I would say even more perilous today economically, than ever before.
When are we going to wake up: we are at the bottom of the Earth, we are isolated, we are pissing off our allies.
But then at what price, at what tax rate, what would happen to our already screwed up education, health, judicial systems.
My opinion only, but the sooner NZ becomes part of Aussie, the better.
My ravings, my opinions:
NZ a f-----g beautiful, & f----d up wee nation, but its my country and I do LOVE it, certainly worth defending.
Who was it that said “ If you want peace! Arm up”
Kiwi girl, I agree with your sentiments exactly, use to give me a H—d-on, “watching” Frank Sharp and his lads put the machines through its paces, especially I will add, the Flt Roll under and breakaway executed at 450ft Agl & 480kts!( from memory).:D:D:D
Now! how did this all start, me and my imagination? Kiwi girl and her “feelings of pleasure”.:E:E:E:E:E
Now where are my happy pills!:}
Chr's
H/Snort.

[John Hill]

NZ is not a member of the ANZUS treaty at present it was suspended back in the 80s the US and aussie still use the word anzus but it should read as AUS.

Oh? I must have missed that, under what provision of the treaty was NZ suspended and who did the suspending?

[Stingaling]

I think they should be auctioned off on ebay. They could be "disarmed" to the USA's satisfaction. There are F104's (Starfighters), & Lightnings to name a few, in private hands, so I cant see the yanks getting too excited by a few clapped out A4's in the air on a weekend. Can you? Seen a MIG 21 recently in the states also flying. Anything has to be better than seeing the things go rotten on the ground. Cant see it would would take 2 - 3 million each to get airworthy (not war ready) either. NZ$1 million tops.

Keep'im flyin'

[Trojan1981]

The RNZAF have great pilots. As much as I love the Aus Army Avo's they could take a lesson from our cross Tasman cousins. Your helicopter pilots have also proved themselves over and over again to the Aussies with some brilliant low level flying on Ex Tasres and in Timor.

I agree, they were brilliant in Timor and certainly more reliable than our own.

I Don't really want to debate the RNZAF fast jet thing, I have my own opinions but its not up to me so there is no point.
I was lucky enough to see the A-4s regularly during my time in the ADF and growing up on the NSW south coast, both in RAN and RNZAF service. It is a shame to see them end up in this predicarment. I hope they are disarmed and placed in museums as soon as possible. I would hate to see them end up like the RANs Trackers, remember the mooted sale to Brazil (I think)? They ended up rotting for years in the open at Nowra.

[Blacksheep]

We're not talking about an invasion, we're talking the plundering of your natural resources and more signficantly piracy. Once these guys discover you're helpless, then the trouble starts. Try life on the North West coast of Borneo and in the Sulu Sea if you want a taster. :rolleyes:

Malaysia and Indonesia don't have enough air assets to control their own airspace in the region. The pirates are willing and able to fight it out with the Malaysian and Indonesian coastal forces. Fast Jet bombers would make a considerable difference, believe me.

[Two's in]

Some irony in the fact that one of the last places you can see the Skyhawk being used is as a target towing platform for the Luftwaffe operating out of Wittmund, Northern Germany. These are ex-Israeli aircraft (the latest ones not even repainted yet) being flown under a BAE Systems contract for the German Government, some of them under civilian N numbers. Must have been an interesting export license application if nothing else.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1286168/M/

[hoggsnortrupert]

KOMAC2:
Get your toungue out of your cheek!:}
Yes you are absolutely correct, who cancelled ANZUS??
Yes NZ "Military personal do have some wonderous skills" "nose bleeders included".
Still we need to contribute under ANZUS!:ok:
H/Snort

[John Hill]

We're not talking about an invasion, we're talking the plundering of your natural resources and more signficantly piracy. Once these guys discover you're helpless, then the trouble starts.

I can just imagine it, high speed fizz boats doing the 14,000 mile round trip from Indonesia to raid my crayfish pots!

If ships are plundering the resources of NZ we need (as I have already inidcated) P3s to find them and surface ships to make the arrest.

Do you think we should unwrap those aircraft and go bomb a Japanese whaler?

Of course, in reality, the only country even remotely likely to plunder our resources has carrier task groups and I am not sure what a few A4s could do about them.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Mr Hill, its Already started::E:E
How many of our immigrants, are implants?
What happens when the likes of China run out of water? yes their industry is absorbing it at an alarming rate.
What happens to China's neighbours when China COMPLETES the biggest DAM in history?
What happens?
Why did our Australian bothers and sisters build the most modern and advanced over the horizon radar system?
About time NZ, instead of riding on the shirt tails, and taking an unfair advantage of our Aussie brothers & sisters,stood up and took a more responsible attitude!
NZ more than Aussie has been hell bent on expanding our population base to expand our economic base.:ugh:
Only NZ can "never" compete with Aussie on the same economic base, immigrants find NZ an easier system to migrate to, then use the documentation NZ gives them to make their way to Aussie?:mad::mad:
But hey maybe my imagination is just too vivid?:}
It is not your crayfish pots you need to worry about!
It is your way of life that is under attack, and we are very fast losing it.
Just wait until the "Koyoto" protocol and the UN get into full swing?
You an't seen nothing yet?
Want to keep your crayfish pot? are you prepared to stand up for for your right to set your pot?:ugh:
Hey maybe I am way off the mark!:E:E
Chr's
H/Snort

[John Hill]

<<How many of our immigrants, are implants?>> Thats why we send our best to Australia!
<<What happens when the likes of China run out of water? yes their industry is absorbing it at an alarming rate.>> Looks like Australia might beat them to that, can we be sure the skippies will not come and start slurping the fresh water from Doubtful Sound? Maybe they are not our best mates after all? :}
<<What happens to China's neighbours when China COMPLETES the biggest DAM in history? What happens? >> Big war in Asia?

<<Why did our Australian bothers and sisters build the most modern and advanced over the horizon radar system?>> Maybe because they could not rely on getting advance warning of the Indonesian invasion from the satellites of their ANZUS partners?:bored:


<<About time NZ, instead of riding on the shirt tails, and taking an unfair advantage of our Aussie brothers & sisters,stood up and took a more responsible attitude!>> More ANZAC frigates.:)

<<NZ more than Aussie has been hell bent on expanding our population base to expand our economic base.>> Silly people, have we not learned anything from the example of Singapore?:rolleyes:

<<Only NZ can "never" compete with Aussie on the same economic base, immigrants find NZ an easier system to migrate to, then use the documentation NZ gives them to make their way to Aussie?>> What about all those skippies who came to NZ in the 1890's, some of their descendants are still stealing oxygen here!:p

<<But hey maybe my imagination is just too vivid?>>:D


<<It is not your crayfish pots you need to worry about!
It is your way of life that is under attack, and we are very fast losing it.
Just wait until the "Koyoto" protocol and the UN get into full swing?
You an't seen nothing yet?>> Just how many bogey men do I have to face on this pleasant Sunday morning in Godzone? :confused:


<<Want to keep your crayfish pot? are you prepared to stand up for for your right to set your pot?>> I was told on another topic that I will be dead soon or maybe only Tangata Whenua will be allowed to set pots in the future.:hmm:

[hoggsnortrupert]

KOMAC2:
Not aggressive, not abrupt, I well know NZ's envolvement, and the FRUSTRATIONS beared by those serving,
Please my view is one I guess of over all, In a Nut shell the NZDF has to fight Tooth and bloody nail to get the NZ govt to listen, in saying this AUNTY HELEN is "begining" to understand.
Mr Hill, I think we are on the same page after all!:ok:
Chr's
H/Snort.
PS" KOMAC2, Your efforts and those of your lads & Ladies, are appreciated.
Please convey to all, A HAPPY as can be, CHRISTMAS, and A SAFE ONE.
God bless you all matey!:ok:

[John Hill]

Komac2 wrote ANZUS NZ was suspended by the US in relation to NZ Nuke policys i.e ships visits etc although it has thawed a little politically over time Still not officially a member country.


I can not agree as I do not believe there is any provision in the treaty for one party to unilaterally 'suspend' another.

[komac2]

The United States suspends ANZUS obligations to New Zealand
After consultations with Australia and after negotiations with New Zealand broke down, the United States announced that it was suspending its treaty obligations to New Zealand until United States Navy ships were re-admitted to New Zealand ports, citing that New Zealand was "a friend, but not an ally". The crisis made front-page headlines for weeks in many American newspapers, while many American cabinet members were quoted as expressing a deep sense of betrayal.However, David Lange did not withdraw New Zealand from ANZUS, although his government's policy led to the US's decision to suspend its treaty obligations to New Zealand.
An opinion poll in New Zealand in 1991showed 54% of those sampled preferred to let the treaty lapse rather than accept visits again by nuclear-armed or nuclear-powered vessels. The policy did not become law until 8 June 1987 with the passing of the New Zealand Nuclear Free Zone, Disarmament, and Arms Control Act 1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Nuclear_Free_Zone%2C_Disarmament%2C_and_Arms_Con trol_Act_1987), more than two years after the Buchanan was refused entry after the USA refused to declare the presence or absence of nuclear weapons, and a year after the USA suspended its treaty obligations to New Zealand.

from wikipedia

[John Hill]

So what you mean is the US suspended itself!

The US tried to impose on NZ an obligation to accept nuclear ships into our harbours, NZ declined to tolerate this imposition on national sovereignity which the US took as a serious afront to its mana and in an effort to save face, or just a fit of picque, kicked over the treaty table!

New Zealand continues to provide military aid to the US every minute of every day, I dont know what we get in return.

BTW, NZ was attacked by the military of another country in July 1985 and the worth of the ANZUS treaty was amply demonstrated by the actions of the US and Australia (to a lesser extent). Now, at what date did the US 'suspend' itself from the treaty with NZ? 1986 IIRC.

[GreenKnight121]

OK, back to the subject of Skyhawks.

They are still operational in the Argentinian Air Force (A-4AR, delivered 1995-1999... surplus USMC A-4Ms modernized with a New-Zealand-like APG-66 multimode radar upgrade) and the Brazilian Navy (AF-1, delivered from 1998... modernized ex-Kuwaiti A-4KUs built in 1976-78, and themselves a modified A-4M).

And the AF-1s do operate from the Brazilian carrier Sao Paulo (ex-Foch, French Navy).

Argentine: 32 A-4AR, 4 TA-4AR (two-seat trainers)
Brazil: 20 AF-1, 3 AF-1A (two-seat trainers)

So either nation could buy New Zealand's A-4Ks & TA-4Ks, if they wanted to.

[John Hill]

So either nation could buy New Zealand's A-4Ks & TA-4Ks, if they wanted to. ...and if they are allowed to, remember that sale by NZ requires US approval, which does seem to be slow to obtain in this "post-ANZUS" era.:rolleyes:

[Gnadenburg]

Should have given them to the Flippers. A meaningful contribution to the war of terror by the kiwis.

A4's would be useful bombing villages in Mindanao and supporting right wing coups.

[hoggsnortrupert]

QUOTE John HILL:...and if they are allowed to, remember that sale by NZ requires US approval, which does seem to be slow to obtain in this "post-ANZUS" era.
With the latest political polls, it looks like we may have a change in Government, still a ways off?
I wonder how long after a change in NZ government it will take to clear the A4's for sale, or maybe even perhaps! "resurect them"::=:=
Out of interest: My old B73 instructor at united was reputed to be a former instructor at Nellis: He rekoned the A4 was the best bit of kit since sliced bread?
Chr's
H/Snort

[John Hill]

H/Snort, would we really want them ressurected? They must be near 50 years old and 50 years before that the Sopwith Camel was a front light fighter!

[hoggsnortrupert]

No John!: I would not like to see them resurected.
I would like to see a better reformation of our NZDF, together with some compulsory manning legislation, and a reformation of ANZUS::ok:
Chr's
H/Snort.

[Trojan1981]

Does anyone know if there was much concern from the Australian Govt regarding the withdrawral of 2 Sqn from NW? Apparently in the late 80s-early 90s the RAAF was unable to provide enough aircraft-hours to the RAN for fleet workups and trg and that is one of the reasons why the Skyhawks came accross the ditch in the first place.
So what has changed? The RAAF has less aircraft and pilots, the Skyhawks are gone and the RAN is left with a small number of Pel-Air Learjets and Westwinds. This must have lead to less or poorer quality trg for the RAN, so why didn't the Aust Govt consider funding 2 Sqn to stay operational in NW for that purpose or even cosider buying the A/C and employing the Crews?

[John Hill]

I cant say I entirely disagree with you H/Snort but our defences forces should be appropriate to our needs and resources.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Australia-NZ-Joint-Defense-Force::)
Do away with the US entirely, I wonder?
Chr's
H/Snort.:)

[John Hill]

Well, you do have to go with people you can trust or go it alone.:hmm:

No question though, the appropriate name would be ANZAC, enough has been paid for it we might as well use it!

[hoggsnortrupert]

IT so proudly should be.
No doubt.
Very good point though! who do you trust?
Been enough ANZAC blood spilt, when push comes to shove blood is thicker than water, I do think this is the case with the NZ & Aussie relationship.
Chr's
H/Snort

[BentStick]

The BAE Hawk 127s of 79 & 76 SQNs RAAF took over the maritime rent-a-threat role when the A4s left. :cool:

[hoggsnortrupert]

Can be a bad thing!

When I hear of the huge trading opourtunities with china, I wonder?
Maybe in the interim "yes".

But with a country that has one 5th/ thats 20% of the worlds population:
But only 7% of the worlds fresh water reserves? something does not add up here:

As I say too much imagination "Maybe".

Chr's
H/Snort.

[wessex19]

trogan1981
"Does anyone know if there was much concern from the Australian Govt regarding the withdrawral of 2 Sqn from NW? Apparently in the late 80s-early 90s the RAAF was unable to provide enough aircraft-hours to the RAN for fleet workups and trg and that is one of the reasons why the Skyhawks came accross the ditch in the first place.
So what has changed? The RAAF has less aircraft and pilots, the Skyhawks are gone and the RAN is left with a small number of Pel-Air Learjets and Westwinds. This must have lead to less or poorer quality trg for the RAN, so why didn't the Aust Govt consider funding 2 Sqn to stay operational in NW for that purpose or even cosider buying the A/C and employing the Crews?"
I am fairly certain that the Australian Government was picking up most of the expenses involved with 2 squadron RNZAF's basing at NAS Nowra. We were certainly getting the bang for our bucks!!! These guys would do things that the RAAF wouldn't when it came to playing waries in the EAXA of Jervis Bay. Highly skilled pilots with a great attitude. I know the RAN was very sad to see them go, just like they were in 1984.
Heres some pics of RNZAF and RAN A-4's
http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/index.html

[John Hill]

H/Snort, the original ANZACs were victim of trust being put in incompetants and it was a mistake that should never be repeated. However if NZ is to be allied with anyone I would prefer Australia and there is no doubt in my mind that they are the world's second best in a great many things and we could find no finer cobbers.:p

[L J R]

Wessex, you might find that the 'chartering' of the A-4s by the Navy/Dept of Defence was chepaer than utilising Hornets or Pigs to do little more than be a 500kt Radar Dot for the most part. Yes, the RAAF did the 'usual' amount of Fleet Suppt, to ensure both parties received the mutually beneficial training etc. RAAF airframe hours have a limit in terms of total utilisation and a yearly 'flog rate', and you wouldn't want your Jet crews doing ONLY fleet support for their 250 or so hours each year. Likewise the Learjets couldn't travel fast enough to represent ASM all of the time, so it was 'prudent' to use some other 'rent-a-threat'. Well done RNZAF.

[hoggsnortrupert]

I rather doubt it somehow:

Fair dinkum cobbers:

Yep and proud to have a few as so.

Mr Hill the wind will change direction and your tongue will get stuck in your cheek for ever and a day.:p:p:p:p:p:p

Chr's
H/Snort:D

[Trojan1981]

The BAE Hawk 127s of 79 & 76 SQNs RAAF took over the maritime rent-a-threat role when the A4s left.
Ok but there are only so many and they have to do LIFT and Nav trg as well with only 33- airframes.
Wessex: Yes they shouldn't have gone in the first place
LJR: I understand the RAAF benifit from this kind of mutual trg. It has been very hard to get aircraft for any training activity in recent years (it may have always been this way-I don't know) and sureley retaining the aircraft would have provided value for money. I can think of plenty of training roles they could fulfil; CAIRS (VERY rare), 16 AD Regt, Dissimilar AC Trg as well as Navy support flight.
Too late now I suppose....http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/trojan1981/Museum_A4_at_Nowra.jpg(RAN OFFICIAL)

[BentStick]

Further to the RAN fleet support task; it does not fall solely to the Hawks. There are the occasional F-111, F/A-18, AP-3 and Kalkara taskings (in the near future there will also be other maritime UAVs and UCAVs).:hmm:

[Gnadenburg]

Australia-NZ-Joint-Defense-Force:
Do away with the US entirely, I wonder?

In an Australian perspective.The Kiwis are useful for South Pacific police actions. As long as we put them in place. The American alliance provides access to very high levels of miltary technology, intelligence and training. The Defence relationship between Australia and the US is vital.

Your suggestion would be nothing but a burden on the Australian taxpayer. That is, we officially subsidise the myopic regional defence interests of New Zealand. Where as now, we unofficially do.

For example, if order breaks down in a South Pacific nation due a natural disaster or civil unrest. Australia ( and probably the US ) would provide the bulk of the logistical air and sea capabilties.

Move the scenarios further afield- PNG & the Indonesian archipelago- and the Kiwis are even more 'token'.

The New Zealand air force should be labelled a Police Air Wing. The Navy a coastguard and the army 'peacekeepers'- with a SWAT like SAS capability.

Bludgers. :}

[kiwi chick]

sigh.......


http://www.vreme.com/g/images/443254_05-love-heart-2.jpg






thats for the piccy, not the comment...

[henry crun]

Don't get too upset komac2, Gnadenburg is an Arstralian, and thus is certain that he has a special place in this world, where might is right.

They are bigger, wealthier, and in this case, arro....... ooops, I meant to say more knowledgeable, than us poor Kiwis.

So, know your place in the order of this world and keep tugging your forelock when you speak of our big neighbours across the Tasman.

[Trojan1981]

Kiwi Chick: I have some nice ones of Kiwi A-4s at flying around NW as well but I have to scan them.

[Gnadenburg]

Don't be so sensitive. Just dismissing a ludicrous suggestion Australia should forego the American alliance for a " Joint Australia-NZ Defence force"

There is absolutely nothing to be gained by Australia.You have run down your capabilities in a number of areas- not just the A4.

Depending on servicability rates for your C130's. The Irish Air corps can pack more capability than the RNZAF.

Your air force is an example of political tokenism. Downgrade it to a police air wing and coast guard. It would be cheaper. :)

[henry crun]

Well stap me Gnadenburg, it is astonishing what one can learn in these forums, I never knew that the Irish Air Corps packs more capability that the RNZAF.

No point in checking the veracity of your statement, we shall just have to take it as the gospel; yes zur, thankee zur.

[John Hill]

Don't be so sensitive. Just dismissing a ludicrous suggestion Australia should forego the American alliance for a " Joint Australia-NZ Defence force"


Did anyone say that? A strengthened ANZAC relationship would not require Australia to give up its relationship with the US.

For NZ's part, our dealings with the US should be in an environment of mutual respect. If Australia wishes to deal with the US differently then they are free to do so.

[Gnadenburg]

Australia-NZ-Joint-Defense-Force:
Do away with the US entirely, I wonder?

Sorry John. It was suggested we do away with our US alliance.

And be replaced by some type of combined, inter-operable Australian & New Zealand defence force.

Laugh! Cunning ploy though. You probably want us to foot the bill for the replacement of all that block obsolescence.

The steely eyed Kiwi fighting man:

http://www.airforce.mil.nz/about-us/band/default.htm

[hoggsnortrupert]

Matey it is TOO big for you.
Quote:
Australia-NZ-Joint-Defense-Force:
Do away with the US entirely, I wonder? it was my thought/Q, see the Question mark??????
It concerns me with what I see as the US big gun theory, "my gun is bigger than yours! do as I say"
Aussie/NZ/US have been friends for a good many years.
QUOTE your statement:[SIZE="4"]Your air force (Inset NZDF) is an example of political tokenism.
You are correct absolutely, this has been the theme of my comments to the thread, but quite frankly matey, and perhaps you didn't intend it, but I find your statement just a tad disrespectful to those that have gone before us in a very proud tradition.
Yes we have a bunch of F:mad:wits, running NZ at present, you now have your turn at experiencing the same :
Bearing in mind we just had a chap awarded the VC< and deseve it he F---ing well does.
People are still prepared to die in the world of "political tokenism". and I salute them every man and woman envolved::ok:
Chr's
H/Snort

[reynoldsno1]

few clapped out A4's in the air on a weekend
They are/were probably the best maintained A4's in the world, and their avionics fit is still pretty much 'state of the art' - but there is no-one left to fly them, let alone conduct any form of operations.

[kiwi chick]

What???

What do you mean "noone left to fly them?!" :confused:

I know someone who would probably jump back in it tomorrow, given half the chance!!

[Runaway Gun]

Maybe after a touch of maintenance :)

[kiwi chick]

Hahaha... possibly! :}


Like unwrapping all that Glad Wrap. I don't think you'd want to use a Stanley Knife.

[busdriver02]

The Kiwis need some air capability to be sure, but to suggest that the Aussies and the US wouldn't step in to help if something no **** happens is silly. Do you really think we'd (the US and AS) stand by and let's say the Chinese swarm and take your island? Not a chance in hell. Now pirates and local terrorists? That's a different story. The Kiwis should focus on counter-terrorist type capabilities, and maintain friendly relations with nations that can provide big-war capability. Seriously, what does a Skyhawk with an F-16 radar give you?

Whatever, I'm just a helo driver, what do I know?

[John Hill]

Seriously, what does a Skyhawk with an F-16 radar give you?

Exactly! The last time terrorists came here they arrived in a sail boat, we had Skyhawks then but I dont recall they did much to stop them. P3s however tracked them out of the area (but thats another story).

[kiwi chick]

Watch it, John


That be my plane you're talking about now.... ;)

[John Hill]

Errr.... righteo then.. you mean the A4 or the P3?:)

[kiwi chick]

Photo courtesy of Buster...


http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x105/kiwiflygirl/RNZAF_Orion_3.jpg

[John Hill]

Nice snap there KiwiChick, such a useful aeroplane too!

[kiwi chick]

Mmmmmmmmmmm nice isn't she?! ;)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Go look at the P3 Grounded thread Kiwi Chick...........it'll break your young and tender heart :E

[John Hill]

Oh yes, looks to be in great shape for her age, a credit to her minders..:)

[kiwi chick]

Me? or the P3...?! ;)

Just read that thread Seldom.... and you're right - brought a tear to my eye... :{

[antipodean alligator]

I guess it's kind of attractive........But the engines are still Upside Down!!

[L J R]

Looking for a job hey alligator?.......

[wessex19]

http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/RAN/bartels/John-Bartels-883-887--880-Flight-1.jpg
http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/RAN/bartels/John-Bartels-887-&-883-flight-03.jpg
http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/RAN/bartels/John-Bartels-line-1.jpg
http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/RAN/bartels/John-Bartels-877-tanking-871-02.jpg

Above thanks to former RAN A-4G pilot John Bartels

[Trojan1981]

:ok: Thankyou for the photos.

[L J R]

At least the RAN flew them from a carrier, as they were designed to do.

...Cooteye are you there??

[cribble]

:) John
On the other hand, the C&C P3 didn't do much when the A4 pair stopped the Kim Nan (sp? its been many years!) off the Taranaki coast. A burst of 20mm "not less than" 200m in front did wonders.

edited for fat fingers

[wessex19]

http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/RAN/bartels/John-Bartels-Jervis-Bay-Launch-05.jpg
A-4G conducting carrier ops inside of Jervis Bay, This was usually conducted in August/September to make the most of the South westerly winds. In the background the clock tower of RAN College HMAS Cresswell.

http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/RAN/bartels/John-Bartels-Jervis-Bay-Launch-01.jpg
Point Perpedicular in the background, the FAA bombing range, (Beecroft) is just north of the light house. A beautiful part of Australia!!!


http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/RAN/bartels/John-Bartels-8xx-Carrier-Land-01.jpg

VF 805 Squadron A-4G about to make the trap

http://www.gibstuff.net/a4_alley/RAN/bartels/John-Bartels-881-Land-02.jpg

VC 724 Squadron TA-4G Skyhawk

Once again thanks to John Bartels

[Launchpad McQuack]

Fantastic pics Wessex, are there anymore??

[Dan Winterland]

In happier days.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/A2A072.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/A2A071.jpg

Taken on exercise Flying Fish, 2000.

[cribble]

http://http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/cribble1/A4NowraVisit.jpg
Nowra, before the roadsign went to Ohakea

[wessex19]

http://www.adf-serials.com/gallery/albums/Skyhawk-N13-154906/DS_N13_154906.sized.jpg
RAN A-4G and RNZAF A-4K's in formation.
This is the aircraft the David Baddams punched out of while flying for VF 805 squadron.

http://www.adf-serials.com/gallery/albums/Skyhawk-N13-154909/AMOF_N13_154909a.jpg

http://www.adf-serials.com/gallery/albums/Skyhawk-N13-154909/AMOF_N13_154909.jpg

On 23/05/79, side No 888 of 805 Squadron crashed over side of HMAS MELBOURNE after arrestor wire broke/parted during landing 90Km east of Jervis Bay, NSW. LCDR K. Finan, USN, ejected and rescued unhurt,by the SAR Wessex & returned onboard HMAS Melbourne.

[jed_thrust]

"David "Bruiser" Baddams"

Actually, "Bruiser" was his elder brother's nickname (he was also an A4 pilot.

David Baddams was known as "Blemish" (as in: not as big as a bruise..)

[henry crun]

komac2:I see what you are getting at, but our Aussie posters would understand you more easily if you speak to them in their own language, say feeesh.

[bakseetblatherer]

Quote "On 23/05/79, Crashed over side of HMAS MELBOURNE after arrestor wire broke/parted during landing"
My uncle was an armourer on board when that happened. I remember him telling me about it, pretty much from then on I knew I wanted to fly in the mil....Never was too clever:)

[Trojan1981]

I received some pictures (via my father) from an ex RAN Skyhawk pilot, Phil Thompson "Sinbad". He was flying the Vampire from Which the first photo was taken. It was taken during a mixed aircraft flyby at an airshow at Nowra in 1968.
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/trojan1981/886DakotaAirDay12oct1969tifFromGIFf.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/trojan1981/881bluegoldstripeTailAirDay1969FORU.jpg

An A-4 available for flight training in the US
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/trojan1981/Skyhawk153524-2.jpg

Cockpit of an A-4K
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/trojan1981/Woodbourne_410_083.jpg


Any update on the A-4s? Are they ever likely to be sold or is there a chance they could be de-militarised and auctioned (I wish:8)?

[wessex19]

brilliant trojan. Top pic is great...... RAN C-47 in the background:ok:

http://www.navy.gov.au/units/805sqn/images/805logo.jpg

http://www.skyhawk.org/2e/australia/805-decomm-thompson.jpg

[Trojan1981]

Nice aren't they? You put some brilliant photos on earlier in the thread. I would love to fly a Skyhawk. I certainly hope they end up auctioning them.:ok:

[Richard G]

Ah don't get me started.

Rotors and 805 Squadron just don't mix - fixed wing for 805 or bust:ok:

If only these paper pushing polies can get their pencils out of their behinds and order 2 squadrons of F-35 STOVL's and rename the LHD's Melbourne and Sydney; bring back the RAN fixed wing I say.

But alas polies only have time for white papers and waisting 1Billion on vietnam era airframes, FOR HEAVENS SAKE THE LHD'S EVEN COME WITH A COMPLIMENTARY SKI JUMP - GET THE IDEA MR RUDD/DR NELSON/ MR FITZGIBBON?
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
they tried throwing sprites at 805 but true to form 805 spat them back out - only F-35 or better will do.

Bring back the RAN fixed wing I say and lets start with the F-35.:{:{

[saudipc-9]

Is there a ex-RNZAF A-4 forum somewhere or alumni? I'd like to get hold of a few of the guys I flew with in Saudi.

Cheers

[Trojan1981]

I think there is an A-4 (Aust/NZ) forum somewhere. If any one knows it would be Phil Thompson. I will ask and if successful I will add a link to this post.:ok:

[StbdD]

http://www.skyhawk.org/

[wessex19]

found this on the net 888 punchout. Additional to that above of LCDR Finan USN punching out off HMAS Melbourne

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i95/skyhawkdon/888ejectStillED.jpg

[Trojan1981]

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh68/trojan1981/1359463.jpg

Is there a ex-RNZAF A-4 forum somewhere or alumni? I'd like to get hold of a few of the guys I flew with in Saudi.

Cheers

I have been told that this is probably the best site.
http://rnzaf.proboards43.com/index.cgi#general:ok:

[aseanaero]

So the RNZAF 'Shyhawk Saga' has progressed to nil ?

I can see another New Zealand epic movie coming ... 'Lord of the Wings' were some sheep farmers from an obscure aero club in the South Island 'rescue' the captive birds (presently disguised in white as big seagulls, in one scene they throw rocks at them and are confused as to why they wont fly) and set them free to a Nirvana where they can fly for another 40 yrs (hmmm 80yr old fighters) , those guys from 'Flight of the ConChords' would be appropriate , dressed in flight gear , bone domes and classic retard one liners . I think a telepathic lamb as a side kick would be a good addition and Murray the band manager (moved from his consular cultural attache job to NZ Intelligence) as their 'man on the inside'

My view

1. We are talking about a 40 yr old fighter , they've had their day , still approriate for some military / commercial (mil-com ?) companies

2. The RAF is disposing of their Jaguars soon and they will go for peanuts , yes also old but they have had a lot of money spent on them and would be good enough for 5 to 10 yrs and then JUNK them , its a weapons system not a classic ferrari

3. The lose of a fast jet skill base is a worry , it will take years and some expensive and fatal accidents to get back to where you were as the wheel gets re-invented

When Australia finally gets some new jets some of the F-18s will head down to NZ 5 yrs from now - thats my 'likely outcome' prediction

OR

The front line fighter aircraft will be a 'flock' of unarmed CT4s with banner towing capability (with witty hard hitting slogans on the banners)

[komac2]

this was the latest a week or two back :

US to help NZ sell mothballed combat planes

The United States has offered to assist New Zealand to sell its mothballed combat planes, according to Defence Minister Phil Goff.

Mr Goff was updating Parliament's foreign affairs, defence and trade select committee on Thursday on the progress of the sale of the Skyhawk and Aermacchi.

The Government has two separate bids for about $150 million, but the deal is awaiting clearance from the US administration.

Mr Goff says he discussed the issue with the American Deputy Secretary of Defence, Gordon England, on a visit to Washington last week.

Meanwhile, New Zealand is unlikely to end any of its overseas deployments in the near future.

Mr Goff says there is a shared commitment by the international community to be in Afghanistan for the long haul.

He says the situations in East Timor and the Solomon Islands are relatively calm and stable.

Copyright © 2008 Radio New Zealand

[Samuel]

Quote:"When Australia finally gets some new jets some of the F-18s will head down to NZ 5 yrs from now - thats my 'likely outcome' prediction".

Total, utter, bolleaux!

[ZK-NSJ]

when helen clark finds herself out on her arse in the coming months
then we shall hopefully see some action, what would it take for the usa to offer a squadren of spanking f/a-18f's to the new nz pm at a reduced rate,

[saudipc-9]

Trojan,

Thanks I'll give the site a go:ok:

[Arclite01]

Not a hope in hell of the RNZAF ever getting back it's fast jet capability I think.......... It's not just about training, it's the support capability.

Personally I think if Uncle Helen was bit more friendly the RAF might give them some of the Tornado F3 fleet when they retire. But the reality is that NZ is more likely to be a target for ICBM than a land based conventional fixed wing threat or even a carrier based one at that.........

If I was NZ I would be buying an upgraded maritime patrol capability and anti shipping toolset - when the Chinese come and plunder the fisheries and anything else they want, NZ will be totally unable to respond or police it's own coastal waters let alone anything in the blue water sphere..........

Actually NZ needs to spend money on longer range SAR capability too.......

And Project Protector.......... don't even get me started :mad:

I think NZ has seriously been sold down the river by it's political masters and it's senior officers.....just like UK

Arc

[Flyingblind]

Dons armchair Admirals hat.

Agreed, the ability for a small, isolated nation state that is surrounded by vast Ocean based resource had better have something up its sleeve to prevent the poachers from doing their thing.

The ideal world that Helen lives in is not a world that the resource hungry Chinese or 'other' inhabit.

Looks a lot like 'What to do when the Borg come a knocking?' get on your knees and pray? or just hope your neighbour has the assets and will to cover your arse.

I'm sure history is replete with this kind of story.

[henry crun]

Longer range SAR capability ? what do you suggest the RNZAF should buy to replace the P3's Arclite01 ?

[Arclite01]

I meant long range helicopters not fixed wing assets - I think the P3 is awesome - buy more and put harpoon on them..........

Arc

[Trojan1981]

This video is hilariously appropriate:} No offence intended kiwi chick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AIppqNePdM:ok:

[elche]

Uploaded for Trojan1981.... :)

http://photos-870.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v338/144/117/554170870/n554170870_1834007_3031.jpg


http://photos-870.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v338/144/117/554170870/n554170870_1834008_3352.jpg


http://photos-870.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v338/144/117/554170870/n554170870_1834009_3633.jpg

[Trojan1981]

Thanks Elche:ok:

The photos show the rapid deterioration of the latex covering on the RNZAF Skyhawks. It has deteriorated to the point where it is holding moisture in.
When is old Helen going to realise that they are not going to be sold as operational airframes, especially in this condition.
It is about time they were sold off to museums and as warbirds, before its too late.

[TEEEJ]

3 News > Political > Story > Skyhawks sale gets a step closer (http://3news.co.nz/Skyhawkssalegetsastepcloser/tabid/419/articleID/66873/cat/67/Default.aspx)

'Skyhawks sale gets a step closer

The Air Force's white elephants, the A4 Skyhawks, are one step closer to finally being sold, seven years after they were grounded.

Defence Minister Phil Goff has confirmed to 3 News the US government has given him an assurance to fast track a possible sale, which could come in the next two months.

Since being grounded in 2001 the A4 Skyhawks have proved to be more a nightmare for the Air Force than the pride they once were, costing $300,000 a month to maintain.

The Government has tried to sell them for nine years, only to be blocked every time by the US State Department. But Defence Minister Phil Goff says they are now wanting to help.

“I have now had an assurance from the Department of Defence and the Department of State that once the tender has been issued, to one of the two bidders for our planes, they will fast track the process,” says Goff.

Goff has confirmed to 3 News the sale price is US$110 million dollars for the 17 Skyhawk jets and a fleet of training Aermacchis.

A contract has yet to be awarded by the US, but Goff is confident that should be in the next two months, and a cheque written finally by the end of the year.

“I'll only breathe a sigh of relief when I receive the cheque but so far the assurance given to me by the American government is very welcome,” says Goff.

The assurance came from a high level US official who visited Wellington last week, and it comes less than a month after the visit of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

The Skyhawks have been sitting outside at the Woodbourne Airbase for almost a year, covered by a hundred thousand dollar latex coating that ACT MP Heather Roy says is failing.

“Water is seeping in between the layers of the latex. It's pooling the so called maintenance is somebody going around after rain with a pin or sharp object piercing the latex covering so that the water drains out and that’s it,” Roy says.

Safe Air, the company that maintains the Skyhawks, would not comment today. The Air Force though says the weather damage was expected but that the important parts of the aircraft are well kept. The Government says their current condition should not hinder any possible future sale.'

Iraqi Air Force?

TJ

[GreenKnight121]

That would be ironic... since Kuwait was flying Skyhawks when Iraq invaded in 1991.

Those Skyhawks are now flying for Brazil... which is another possible buyer (Argentine ditto).

[Monty77]

I have had the pleasure of spending a month on holiday in NZ on both Islands with my family. It was, and probably will be, the best holiday we've ever had.
It is a fantastic country with really nice people. Were it not for family considerations, I would be down there like a flash.

I do not wish to cause offence. But..

Guys. A couple of FJ sqns will not guarantee anything, and in a country of 4 million, you cannot go large on defence. Australia is between you and the rest of the world. Maritime and SAR are a more realistic contribution to your part of the world.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Brit, and realize that militarily, we are incapable of fighting independently on any great scale, though like you, at platoon level, we can dish it out.

Back here in Europe, when Russia says,'Look, we're a really big country stuffed full of oil, wheat and people, and if we decide to invade Georgia, we will'. We have no answer.

Apart from mumbling about human rights and wondering if the US will help.

[StbdD]

What a couple of FJ squadrons says is that we are a part of this world and will contribute force when we feel it is required.

Kiwi squadrons made their impact felt in several theaters in WWII. They tended to punch higher than their weight and their re-emergence on the international scene would be a positive thing.

[Monty77]

Yes, but what good are a couple of sqns of fast jets when NZ impact on good relations in the Far East and humanitarian aid are better served by AT and rotary assets.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see RNZAF with a FJ capability again. But money is tight. Disaster relief and help where it is really needed are better goodwill ambassadors than punching somebody's lights out.

I will probably stand corrected here, but were the NZ A4s ever involved in a 'hot war', and what were the losses?

I've never met an unpopular Kiwi and you guys are always welcome in Blighty. But the cost of running FJ with such a small population doesn't justify the costs. I wish it were not thus, but if you had to crunch the governmental numbers, health care, roads, education, power supply, care of the old, the sick, ex-politicians and all of the rest leave a couple of FJ sqns way down the list of 'must haves'.

I agree with you, but see the economic arguments against.

[flatfootsam]

'we are a part of this world and will contribute force when we feel it is required'

bolloxs. Clark right to get rid of the kero burning toys - all very impressive roaring about the place, but what was the real value?

And who is seriously going to attack nz? no one's that unimagitative.

NZ has never moved unilaterally militarily, it follows predetermined political and strategic motives

NZ's in iraq, afganistan and other UN sanctioned zones for political expediency regarding trade, rather than any higher motives. why is no one in Darfor?

nz has been in every major dust up from '39 onwards, but have been discarded economically by the brits in the '70's & then the yanks in the '80's, which is one reason why the white elephant A4's are still sitting around (& the macchi 339's).just as well the latest defence procurement is european based

why doesn't the rnzaf fly PAC XL 750's? NZ made, rugged transports - absent from the airforces inventory

helicopters and transports - the program's on track

[kiwi grey]

flatfootsam said
"NZ's in iraq, afganistan and other UN sanctioned zones for political expediency regarding trade, rather than any higher motives. why is no one in Darfor?"

Apart from these ones?
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/operations/deployments/sudan/default.htm

[wessex19]

Since being grounded in 2001 the A4 Skyhawks have proved to be more a nightmare for the Air Force than the pride they once were, costing $300,000 a month to maintain.

By the look of those pics, $300, 000 a month is a rip off. i would do it for $290,000. Bargain!!! How about they send a T-A4 and an A-4 back to nowra to put in the museum.

http://www.adf-serials.com/gallery/albums/Skyhawk-N13-154908/Image0024.jpg

[Evalu8ter]

Please don't take this as RW schadenfreude, but there has been much sense talked about the relative value of a small FJ force for a nation such as NZ. A couple of sqns might soothe egos and provide an interesting diversion at airshows but in the real world such a force would be hideously expensive for a nation the size of NZ.

It is not just the purchase and operating costs. The logic of some posters is that NZ FJs could be deployed in support of Coalition ops. The cost of keeping a small fleet of FJs up to Coalition Theatre Entry Standard would be horrific; even the UK struggles to keep a small proportion of its' relatively large FJ inventory at TES standard. Then the logistics cost of supporting such a det would be a large strain, possibly dictating more AT/AAR etc etc. Finally the US would say "Oh great, 6 old F-16s (for example), park them over there behind the rows of F15s, F18s, F22s and (eventually) Typhoons." To contribute SH and troops would receive a much warmer response as NZ has, pound for pound, some of the best troops on the planet.

So, stick to your (door) guns. Do what is right for NZ. Buy MPA to secure your own backyard and, if you want to support GWoT, provide more troops and Helos. The bonus of this is that the troops/helos can also be used at home or abroad in non-combat roles (SAR/Disaster relief) to provide more than just a "woosh" at airshows.

[glad rag]

Quote Flatfootsams post #135

"NZ's in iraq, afganistan/And who is seriously going to attack nz?"


Even without your countries contributions in those theatres you already are a target for being what you are, a non Muslim Western Democracy.

[thegypsy]

Talking about the NZ A4 Skyhawks reminds me of a night stop in Christchurch some years ago. Had 2 days to kill and from our central hotel decided to walk to an Air Museum I was told about on a disused airfield where amongst other aircraft was an A4 Skyhawk.

After walking for what seemed like ages I eventually got there along a very busy road full of traffic but it was well worth a visit.There was an interesting veteran to talk to and I managed to get a bus back!!

Well worth a visit if you are in Christchurch.

[Trojan1981]

wessex19,
Great pic! I would love to see ex oz A-4s in the museum in Nowra.

[Trojan1981]

From Australian aviation express
MILITARY

The sale of the RNZAF’s A-4s looks to have been cleared. (Paul Sadler)


* NZ SKYHAWKS FINALLY CLEARED FOR SALE: Radio NZ News has reported that the RNZAF’s 17 retired A-4K Skyhawk fighter bombers - which were mothballed in 2001 - have finally been cleared by the US government for sale to a private US company.
The NZ$155m (A$128m) sale of the aircraft, which also includes 17 Aermacchi MB-339 advanced trainers, had been held up by the US State Department as well as the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms which reportedly had to approve the transfer of the ejection seat initiation explosives.
The company buying the aircraft, believed to be an Arizona based company which provides air training services to the US military and allies, will send engineering staff to NZ to assess to the aircraft before a final deal is reached.

[Rotor Buddy]

Please excuse my ignorance as I genuinely dont know, but could someone explain the reasons behind why we need the permission of the US to agree the sale of these aircraft between NZ and another nation? Thanks

[Barksdale Boy]

While on detachment with 50sqn to RNZAF Ohakea in February 1973, I was lucky enough to get a ride in the 74(?)sqn T-bird. Fg. Off. Rod Murdoch opted for low-level route Gold - memorably and spectacularly through the Alps of South Island and culminating in an attack on Queenstown, after which he stood it on its a$se and we climbed out. I don't remember many better days' flying. RIP A4.

[Wader2]

Please excuse my ignorance as I genuinely dont know, but could someone explain the reasons behind why we need the permission of the US to agree the sale of these aircraft between NZ and another nation? Thanks

Congress decides to whom it will sell its hardware and the conditions that will apply to the End User and technology transfer. The Canberra B(I)6 and 15/16 was a case in point. These were part funded by the US and capable of carrying US Nuclear bombs. When they were retired we were not allowed to sell them on.

Another example was the C130. The package we got was a self-maintain package whereas the package sold to the Iranian Air Force had a Lockheed support package included. Where a prop seal needed replacement RAF Engineers could do this in the field. For the Iranian aircraft it involved an engine change and shipment back to the US - at a cost!

The RAF Eng in Tehran who showed the Iranians how to do a seal change got a rocket from Lockheed who stood to lose a nice little earner.

[John Hill]

A couple of years have gone by...........

I live in Ashburton now and being now retired of course I have joined the local aviation museum where the hot buzz is that donors have been found to cover the cost of acquiring a Skyhawk.;)

[Boozydragon]

Uncle Helen was absolutely right to get rid of the A4. Whilst it's great to wax lyrical about 'the time when' and having an orgasm (poor old Kiwi Chick!) from seeing one, the need for the A4 was long past in 1999 if not before. NZ is a very small player in the world and use the dets to be noticed; not influence, but be noticed. The days of Wigwam and Hobnobville are long past - it's an ugly place here in the 21st century but feel free to join us!:ok:

[nzavi8or]

Dear John, :rolleyes:

As an ex NZ A4 driver, and after reading your negativity dating back to posts in 2007, now that you have joined the Ashburton Aviation Museum fraternity, (and congrats for securing an A4), I trust you will now put your efforts into displaying it with the austerity the aircraft deserves and with the appropriate dignity to those that served on 75 Sqn and also to those sqn pilots who gave their lives in service of their country, even if it was in peacetime!!
I look forward to visiting the museum one day as I've heard it has some great exhibits..

nzav.

[ex-fast-jets]

I flew the A-4M on exchange with the USN at NWC China Lake in the late 70's/early 80's.

Obsolescent it might have been then - but what a great machine and what a delight to fly. And very capable. Flew it on a RED FLAG, and certainly caught the attention of the trendy Tom Cruise F-14 brigade, and the F-15 mob!!

I loved the Hunter - but the A-4 was a step more capable, even though smaller.

So anything that can be done to save the memory of that great little machine deserves support.

My A-4 FOREVERFOREVERFOREVER t-shirt has been lost in the mists of time.

But my memory of the A-4 is certainly not lost.

Good Luck and I hope its memory can been saved.

[Trojan1981]

Draken International acquires ex Kiwi Skyhawks | Australian Aviation Magazine (http://australianaviation.com.au/2012/08/draken-international-acquires-ex-kiwi-skyhawks/)

About bloody time! :ok:

[Navaleye]

BomberH,

I have heard the same about the A4. It was held in high regard by the USMC. However, it was toast to any Sea Harrier that came across it in 82 and had an ejector seat that was more likely to kill you than save you.

[ex-fast-jets]

The A-4M had a P408 engine which was much more powerful than the P6 or P8 which powered earlier models. Different as chalk and cheese.

Plus, the SeaJets and Argentinian A-4s were flying very different missions, and were armed in very different ways, so comparing SeaJet air-to-air success over early model A-4s in an air-to-ground fit in that conflict is not a good comparison.

In peacetime training, an AIM-9L equipped A-4M and and AIM-9L equipped AV-8A were a good match, with the winner usually the better air combat pilot of the two.

So declaring all A-4s to be toast against Sea Harriers is somewhat misleading - IMHO.

[SpazSinbad]

Any evidence for your contention 'navaleye'? Anyway being the first rocket zero zero seat the Escapac was often used outside the envelope. Served the RAN FAA well as shown in these dire strait instances.

Click thumbnails for the big pic:
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_888lossNavyNews01jun1979series.jpg (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/888lossNavyNews01jun1979series.jpg) http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_888ejectFinan.jpg (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/888ejectFinan.jpg)

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/885A4GbaddamsEjectAnimatedStills.mp4

[GreenKnight121]

Navaleye has a point about the Skyhawks used by Argentina, while BomberH has a point about the USMC's A-4Ms.

The early A-4s had poor engines and ejection seats, while later ones had much better engines and ejection seats.

A-4B: 7,700 lb.s.t. J65-16; ESCAPAC 1 rocket-boosted ejector seat
A-4C: as above or 8,400 lb.s.t. J65-20; ESCAPAC 1A-1 low-level ejector seat

The Argentinian Skyhawks (both Fuerza Aerea and Comando de Aviación Naval) in the Falklands war were refurbished versions of these two, with engines and ejection seats unchanged.


A-4E*: 8,500 lb.s.t. J52-6A (later 9,300 lb.s.t. J52-8A); ESCAPAC 1 STENCEL MOD
A-4F**: 9,300 lb.s.t. J52-8A; ESCAPAC 1C-3 (later 1F-3) ejector seat
A-4M***: 11,200 lb.s.t. J52-408; ESCAPAC 1C-3 (later 1F-3) ejector seat

Argentina bought surplus A-4Ms in 1995 to replace those in the Fuerza Aerea, while the Comando de Aviación Naval no longer operates any Skyhawk model.


Singapore's A-4Ss were refurbished and modified A-4B/Cs with the J65-20.
These were modernized to A-4SUs by replacing the J65 with the 11,000 lb.s.t. F404-100D (non-afterburning).

* also Israeli A-4H
** also RAN A-4G & RNZAF A-4K
*** also Kuwaiti A-4KU & Israeli A-4N

[orca]

I think the simple fact is that there was no developed ACM in the Falklands war so impossible to compare the two jets really.

Unescorted bomb trucks versus CAP, even if the GCI has limited picture and the jets a poor look down system, should realistically be a fairly one sided event.

Might we allow ourselves to wonder what would have happened if the opening strikes on Stanley and Goose Green by Sea Harriers had been pounced upon from above by 9L toting A-4s?

[TBM-Legend]

I think a couple of sinkings can attest to the strike power of the A-4 given that they operated at the max of their range. The A-4 worked well in its day in Vietnam too as well as Israeli war of attrition. I watched them in Beersheba recently doing training and the pilots love them.

[Heathrow Harry]

and they were CHEAP

and didn't take 12 years to get to the prototype stage

[Buster Hyman]

Can those in the know enlighten me? That second photo appears to show the pilot leaning forward in the seat. Is that an optical illusion, or is that about right in that situation? I always imagined that the G forces would put the head down, but I thought the shoulder restraints would have worked a little better than that.

Just a civvy question chaps. :ok:

[SpazSinbad]

The pilot has pulled the secondary handle between legs. When pulling primary handle over the head the face blind acts as a restraint to head movement and protect head from wind blast. Primary handle used in other non-urgent situations. This A4G has just arrested with the 'wire breaking' during pull out leaving the aircraft to 'trickle' off the deck edge fairly fast. It is impossible to prevent the head with helmet weight from being pulled down by the rocket upwards acceleration in this situation. Apparently the pilot suffered no ill effects in this ejection. Cold cat shot pilot had some minor injuries AFAIK. Shoulder restraints have no effect on head movement.

888 A-4G Pilot Ejects - Arrestor Wire Break HMAS Melbourne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WdnpHcQn3Y&feature=plcp

"23 May 1979 A-4G 888 is lost after the wire breaks during arrest on HMAS Melbourne. Pilot was a USN exchange pilot on VF-805 who ejects succesfully as shown in this video with many camera angles and slow motion replays...."

[rjtjrt]

Spsinbad
I always thought it was a hook that broke in the RAN Skyhawk incident or I seem to recal incidents, but I am willing to be corrected.
John

[SpazSinbad]

If you view the slow motion part of the video on Youtube you will see the wire actually fall away from the hook because it 'broke' under the deck. Meanwhile here is part of the 888 pilot report.([Later tonight Friday an upload will start & within 24 hours a new version of the 4.4GB PDF will be online at https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6&sa=822839791 [SpazSinbad's Page at Microsoft SkyDrive] with a complete report on all fings A4G plus bonus extras.) Have been attempting to upload elsewhere but cannot do so due to server overload. Maybe later the new version of the PDF can be uploaded. Dunno.

Click thumbnail: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_Part_A4G_888_Pilot_Report.gif (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/Part_A4G_888_Pilot_Report.gif)

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_PhotoBucketCanopy888offtextSMALL.jpg (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/PhotoBucketCanopy888offtextSMALL.jpg) http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_PhotoBucketOptEdShort888wirebreakSl.jpg (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/PhotoBucketOptEdShort888wirebreakSl.jpg)

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_ZeroEjectDetailNATOPS.gif (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/ZeroEjectDetailNATOPS.gif)

[Buster Hyman]

Thanks Spaz. Terrific video too. :ok:

I noticed the air brakes retracting almost immediately. They must surely be automated & linked to the arrestor hook in some way.

[SpazSinbad]

The pilot controls the speedbrakes. As soon as the aircraft hits the deck the throttle goes to full power and speedbrakes IN. If a bolter or touch and go then speedbrakes extended during downwind subsequently. If successful arrest then pilot will retard the throttle and bring the speedbrakes in. Speedbrake thumb switch is on the throttle so easy to control.

Click Thumbnail: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_A-4throttleSpeedBrakeThumbSwitch.gif (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/A-4throttleSpeedBrakeThumbSwitch.gif)

[Buster Hyman]

Right. Gotcha. :ok:

I'm learning a ****load of stuff here tonight! :};):}

[SpazSinbad]

'rjtjrt' this is what 'Stubbsy' [lead hookman] had to say via e-mail about 888 and the arrest wire (wire breaks and is pulled through or drops away from unbroken hook):

"STUBBSY: "I was the lead hook-man on that day, I jumped the wire when it recoiled back, my partner Hughy Fraser copped it in the shins; it was like a car crash in slow motion. Lucky to be here, the wire parted under the deck in the sheaves. If it happened on deck I reckon we were history."

Click thumbnail for an earlier e-mail account by same 'Stubbsy':

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_Stubbs888recollectionHookman.gif (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/Stubbs888recollectionHookman.gif)

[Navaleye]

BomberH,

I'm always happy to be corrected and thank you. I thought the ARG A4s had a system called Escapac (sp?) which gained a bad reputatation and survivability rate with thye USMC. The Daggers and Mirages which had MB bang seats compared to the old A4s in 82.

[Trojan1981]

Sinbad you are a font of Skyhawk knowledge! :ok:

[GreenKnight121]

Navaleye, did you see my post above?
http://www.pprune.org/7361954-post146.html

ALL A-4s had some version of the ESCAPAC seat.

The Arg A-4s had the early ESCAPAC seat, while the A-4s in USN/USMC service past the mid-1970s (retirement of the 100 USN/USMC Reserve A-4Ls [upgraded A-4B/C]) and all A-4s manufactured after 1962 had significantly improved versions of the ESCAPAC seat.

[SpazSinbad]

Some history / info here:

http://www.ejectionsite.com/escapacfr.htm

"...The Skyhawk used several different Escapacs over the years and each of the seats was an improved version of the prior version. Some other changes involved the catapult and rocket, the parachute, as well as canopy breakers and jettison systems...."

"Designation - Aircraft
1 - A-4A, B, C,
IC-3 - A-4F, TA-4F, and SUBS
IF-3 - A-4F & TA-4
IG-3 - A-4F, TA-4F & SUBS

[Brian Abraham]

Sinbad you are a font of Skyhawk knowledgeHe was a driver of same after all.

[SpazSinbad]

Thanks Brian, hope you go well. [Check out the helo section in 4.4GB PDF!] :ok:

Way back on 7th Sept 2008 on this thread 'Wessex19' (& later 'Trojan1981') was wishing for more Skyhawks at FAAM.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/304312-r-i-p-skyhawks-7.html#post4378124

Anyhoo now 'old' news but ex TA4G 880 is back at FAAM in two tone authentic camo colours with a No.2 Sqdn RNZAF tag on tail.

SEARCH term 'Skyhawk' (without quotes) at URL below:

Welcome to FotoWeb 7.0 (http://images.navy.gov.au/fotoweb/)

Click thumbnail for a bigga one: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_880outsideFAAM621999_493596930655012_1247574649_o.jpg (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/880outsideFAAM621999_493596930655012_1247574649_o.jpg)

[Trojan1981]

Quote:



Sinbad you are a font of Skyhawk knowledge

He was a driver of same after all.


He was indeed; even flew Sea Venoms. :ok:

Nice shot Sinbad!

[ex-fast-jets]

The Escapac seat fitted to the A-4 was an innovative seat for its time, with a ballistic spreader to speed inflation of the parachute canopy to aid low and slow ejections before the advent of zero/zero seats.

In my time with the USN 78-81, I was unaware of any concern over the seat, although a USMC test pilot who ejected at high speed over the Chesapeake Bay did suffer bad injuries - but survived!

[TBM-Legend]

Nice pic of the Skyhawk.

Note they got the designation wrong. TA4-G it is not but rather TA-4G......:D

I was CAG SATCO when the last two A-4's fell off the front of the Canoe....The CO and the Midn.....

[SpazSinbad]

HehHeh SATCO I'll have to look up who youse is from the recent Navy List releases at the RAN Hysterical Pubs Website. I see wrongly named stuff all the time. By way of explanation back in dem days, having only mechanical typewriters to bash upon, often hyphens were omitted. And anyway the A4G/TA4G were known as such. So bugga PCness I still call 'em dat. :D

Main reason why the dreaded 4.4GB PDF was started (along with smaller pubs for youse edification) was said incorrect info on the infant web all those years ago now. I quickly found that mistakes are not corrected but good luck with getting someone to correct anything. I could go on and on but will stop there... :ugh:

At least I think the current FAAM does not list the modified A-4B (currently on display as an A4G) as a TA-4B. This is correct in one sense but not in a more common sense sense. The 'trainer' T was added to the A-4B momentarily to enable them to be superceded by new operational Skyhawks back in those ancient days. T is for Trainer so these single seater Bs were 'trainers for a day' (so to speak).

BTW here is a punchy extract from VF-805 (withorwithouthyphen I don't recall guv) :8 Squadron Diary re 885 loss:

Click for Pic: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_885lossVF-805report.gif (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/885lossVF-805report.gif)

And Click for the Video:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_885coldCatEjectionOK.jpg (http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/?action=view&current=885coldCatEjectionOK.mp4)

[SpazSinbad]

'BomberH' there was a time in the 1980s when it was discovered some (a half dozen or less) Escapac ejection seat tubes had been manufactured without the tube being drilled out. Story here:

a4-glider | A-4 Skyhawk Association (http://a4skyhawk.org/?q=2d/tins/a4-glider.htm)

"...Another Postscript; As I was going through my relight procedures and glider training at Cecil, over at Pensacola, the Paint and Return facility (PAR) or SDLM folks were taking a A-4F out on an ‘acceptance flight’. The A/C didn’t make it back. The J52 P408 engine stopped for some reason, and the acceptance pilot tried to eject and the seat didn’t work and the results were fatal. The wrecked A4 was shallow enough that it was salvaged. They found the pilot still in the seat with the canopy gone. Seems the SS steel tube that runs from the seat initiator to the rocket motor wasn’t a hollow tube. The middle section was blocked, not drilled out. So for this test pilot, the canopy fired but the seat didn’t. Ouch.

NavAirSysCom checked the rest of the A-4 fleet and found 5 more A-4’s with the blocked seat rocket initiator tubes. Yep, you guessed it. MB 12 was one. Had I once looked at the fuel gage and saw zero, I would have ejected. The canopy would have come off and the seat would have stayed in the Aircraft. I wouldn’t have made the end of the runway and the wreckage would have burned...."

For those interested this incompletely drilled tube may have been resposible for Ralph being unable to eject from 879 (in 1974) but we will never know. This was not an issue for the RAN FAA by mid 1984, I guess the Kiwis checked it out etc.

[DBTW]

My Escapac IG3 certainly hurt when it went off...and that was only just a little bit less than when the ballistic spreader fired. The seat was an original Zero/Zero seat and it had many problems due to its antiquity. In my view, the rate of acceleration from the rocket coupled to the instant deceleration from the ballistic spreader was close to a fatal mix in any circumstance.

Having flown both types, given the choice of cockpit in an "A4 vs SHAR knife fight" I would choose the SHAR every time. Even with the FRS1, the radar and air to air weapons aiming system was superior in all respects. And the thrust advantage with the Sea Jet was enough to counteract any turn rate advantage the lower wing-loaded A4 might have felt.

NB: I never flew an A4M, but am fairly sure they didn't have a radar. Entering a fight without a radar is like being blind in a room full of enemies who can see.

[ex-fast-jets]

Well, if you're going to cheat and use radar..............................

[Three Wire]

Well DB, IT CT was the first ejectee to use the ballistic spreader. It crocked his back I believe.

But you used what you had, and I would have taken on an FSR1, but after I had selectively jettisoned stores!!!

3W

[SpazSinbad]

Now that 'TBM-LegEnd' has mentioned the CO here is a video of still photos - view from the 'goofers' platform fwd - series was taken by Rick Mechan RAN with an Instamatic camera - showing the loss of A4G 875 with CO VF-805 LCDR Clive Blennerhassett ejecting successfully due to engine failure immediately/during a normal catapult from HMAS Melbourne.

And thank goodness the Escapac saved all those who used it in dire circumstances, despite any other misgivings. There is one ex-A4G chap who has done SHAR & TA4G who may be able to comment on the violence of both ejection experiences?

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_A4G875ejectionFrames.jpg (http://s98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/?action=view&current=A4G875ejectionFrames.mp4)

[bakseetblatherer]

Interesting to watch those vids, AFAIK my uncle was a bomb head on board at the time.

[DBTW]

Well, if you're going to cheat and use radar..............................
:) I believe there is no such thing as cheating in combat. It reminds me of Sean Connery's famous line in "The Untouchables" where he made the point quite clearly that one shouldn't pitch up to a gunfight carrying only a knife. Further, the point was very firmly reinforced by the very next scene in the film.

I loved the Skyhawk. But let's remember what it was from the very beginning and throughout its long and successful service life. It was an attack platform, designed to carry bombs and drop them on things. It was never intended to be an air to air platform in modern radar saturated battle space.

Hey three wire! Selective stores jettison was not a unique A4 feature...;)

BTW, Spazsinbad is right. In RAN service the ESCAPAC did save everyone who used it, and I am certainly grateful for that...even if slightly shorter than I might otherwise have been:E

[Three Wire]

So the release of my empty RP pod was a mistake then. (Yep - it thought it was a dumb bomb!)

You always gotta have a concealed weapon, the shiv up your sleeve, or the combat knife in your boot, or the extra AIM9!

875 was my airplane. I always thought she was mistreated by a Kiwi in Townsville. I am glad she had an honourable discharge.

3W

[SpazSinbad]

HeeHee, dose frickin' store switches - so easy to reach - so easy to see - under G or not - actually prolly easier to see with head down, groaning! I had the honour to drop an empty tank (spiralled nicely onto the range according to a fellow follower [Hammo]) and I sheepishly returned to NAS to front the CO almost - then an instructor on next sortie, soon as, dropped an empty RP pod! What a nice chap was Ezza. End of - no fronting - giggles all round, youse naughty chaps. A taxiing accident and store dropping was a hanging offence - most of the time. :=

[wessex19]

once again, well done spaz. Let me know when you are heading down to the museum next time :ok:

[SpazSinbad]

'3wire' what was mistreatment by Kiwi of 875 in Townsville? Do you mean 877? Anyway the latest version of the 4.4GB PDF is now at SpazSinbad page on SkyDrive. The other website is temporarily not available for uploads it seems.

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6&sa=822839791#cid=CBCD63D6340707E6&id=CBCD63D6340707E6%21298
OR
http://alturl.com/x4ica (Short URL Forwarding for above long URL)

Now available at www.a4ghistory.com (http://www.a4ghistory.com):

http://www.a4ghistory.com/A4G-FAA_Scrapbook_16aug2012_8,964ppFINALv11.pdf [4.4GB]

Please 'right mouse click' to 'Save as...' or use a download manager, otherwise download will fail if left click allows Adobe Reader to download this large file.

[Three Wire]

The mistreatment involved a wet runway, crosswind and an Air Force landing. Aircraft promptly swung downwind and rolled on its back. Pilot was trapped for an hour or two until the Air Force lifted it enough to open the canopy.

Story related to me by an ex-Kiwi A4er now back in NZ.

3W

[SpazSinbad]

Downloading the 4.4GB PDF or similar will reveal a host of stories about A4Gs in RAN FAA service and ex-A4Gs in RNZAF service. This is but one of dem... Pic to follow...

Quote from "The Phantom, Hornet & Skyhawk, in Australian Service" by Stewart Wilson, page 174

"In June 1985 NZ6118 (sic) [6218] (ex '877') flipped onto its back while landing in heavy rain at RAAF Townsville during a deployment to northern Australia.

Serious damage was sustained to the aircraft's tail, canopy, nose and other components and the aircraft was flown back to New Zealand in a C-130 Hercules. It remained in storage for nearly three years until April 1988 when the decision was made to repair it.

17,000 man hours and nearly two years later the Skyhawk was in the air again with a new tail section obtained from the US Navy, new wings and rebuilt aft fuselage, nose section and nosewheel. The Skyhawk was then upgraded under the Project Kahu programme."

&
Wings Over New Zealand - Kahu Hot Weather Trials - RAAF Tindal August 1990 (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Postwar&action=display&thread=2063&page=2)

"Wallsy [FLT LT Ian Walls] was stuck, upside down. He couldnt get the headknocker down (up?), so was hanging under a live seat wondering what was going to happen next! The crash fire guys eventually extracated him through the hole in the canopy that you can see..."

Click Pics: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_877_NZ6218upsideDownTownsville.jpg (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/877_NZ6218upsideDownTownsville.jpg) http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_DeadAntsA4GexTownsville1985-1.gif (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/DeadAntsA4GexTownsville1985-1.gif)

[SpazSinbad]

For 'Buster Hyman' question about 'head position' during ejection on previous page of this thread, here is another classic photo series at URL:

Pilot ejects an instant before fighterjet crashes - PhotoBlog (http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2010/07/23/4739027-pilot-ejects-an-instant-before-fighterjet-crashes)

"Pilot Capt. Brian Bews ejects as his a CF-18 fighter jet plummets to the ground during a practice flight at the Lethbridge County Airport on Friday, July 23 [2010] for the weekend airshow in Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. "He is alive and we believe right now that his injuries are non-life-threatening," Canadian Forces Capt. Nicole Meszaros told CBC News."

Click Pics (zoomed from: http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=http3A2F2Fwww.newsvine.com2F_vine2Fimages2Fu sers2Fjames-cheng2F4739045.jpg )

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_CF-18ejectionZOOMed.jpg (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/CF-18ejectionZOOMed.jpg) http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/th_CF-18ejectionZOOM.jpg (http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/CF-18ejectionZOOM.jpg)
________________

CF-18 Crash Video Utube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4yMVM2Vxas

"Uploaded by stickfestival on Jul 23, 2010
Global News 07-23-2010"

[IcePaq]

The A4 flew until 2016 in argentina.

They were top shelf A4s refitted by lockeed martin with modern avionics and were super capable and I believe many of the upgrades were due to what NZ did with theirs in project kahu.

Glass cockpits....etc.

Some of the ones my dad flew in navy reserve ended up there.

[Buster Hyman]

http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r698/noahski/Mobile%20Uploads/thread-necromancy_zpslduenrqk.png

[IcePaq]

The post you are responding to is an update and correction to the topic for future viewers.

Your response adds nothing to the topic.

Bonus picture..........notice the main gear.

http://a4skyhawk.info/sites/default/files/images-a4-buno/148483.jpg

[Buster Hyman]

At least I'm not easily upset...

[SpazSinbad]

I'll bite - big wheels keep on turning....
"...BuNo148435 & BuNo148490 were the two A-4C test aircraft modified & evaluated by the U.S. Army for use as Forward Air Control & reconnaissance roles.”...
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/ARMYskyhawkA-4CmodifiedED.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/ARMYskyhawkA-4CmodifiedED.gif.html)

[Rossian]

.....if you're still reading this thread. What have you been doing since you kicked maritime into touch all those years ago?

The Ancient Mariner

[MACH2NUMBER]

I knew a Kiwi fighter pilot, on exchange in Florida, in the 80s, great guy. He was on F4s, at MacDill, I was on F15s, at Tyndall, but he had had an A4 background. If you read this you Kiwi Lizard drop a me a PM.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Crikey, that brought back some memories. SpazSinbad the pilot in the article I believe was an exchange pilot over here in the UK and flew the RN Jetstreams on 750Sqn. I flew with him several times.
I vaguely recall he was nicknamed "Bad Boy" but that could have applied to any of us at the time ;-)

I wonder where he is now. Is it DBTW?

[SpazSinbad]

'SATCOS WHIPPING BOY' I'll guess you refer to previous page story: http://www.pprune.org/7364165-post167.html

Our last 'catapulted' A4G pilot was indeed Dave Baddams who went on to join the RN FAA when our RAN FAA Fixed Wing Folded. He was a QFI by then, instructing on RN aircraft, to then join the SHAR community to eventually command 800NAS. As for the identity of 'DBTW' youse would have to ask him. :-)

Dave was 'Blemish' or 'Blem', whilst his older brother - also an A4G pilot & LSO - was 'Bruiser'. That 'Blemish' nickname came from 'BH' who was his CO on VF-805 (also earlier on VC-724).

The video (screenshot) may be seen here. Shep went to SHARland whilst Andy Sinclair managed to eject from a TA-4G and a SHAR (mentioned earlier in this thread). Andy speaks in the video below and is the solo screenshot. Baz of course was the first cold cat survivor, going over the front to remain in A4G 889 whilst the MELBOURNE passed overhead; then he exited, inflated his vest to dramatically POP UP - still breathing - to be rescued by Pedro Wessex. Later Baz went to a drop tank landing at RAAF Amberley having lost the port main gear (not his fault) during a touch and go onboard. A4G 887 was easily repaired to be flown back to NAS Nowra the next day - rugged airframe indeed. 887 had years earlier carried out a drop tank arrested landing at NAS Barbers Point, Oahu (not far west from Honolulu, Hawaii) - Hammo was flying then (late 1971) & was last CO of VC-724 1984.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/ShepBruiserBazYakYakForum.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/ShepBruiserBazYakYakForum.jpg.html)

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/AndySinclairVF-805.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/AndySinclairVF-805.jpg.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8WsBvEuDa8

[SpazSinbad]

From: ‘BAe/McDonnell Douglas Harrier’ by Andy Evans | CROWOOD AVIATION SERIES 1998 ...Flying the F/A.2 with LCDR David Baddams
“An ex-Royal Australian Navy Skyhawk pilot, David [Baddams] was on the last cruise of the Melbourne before its retirement.

Plans to buy HMS Invincible for the RAN disappeared after the Falklands and David found himself redundant at the age of 23. He applied to transfer to the Royal Navy in 1984 and was accepted, going on to fly the Sea Harrier FRS.1, and latterly the F/A.2. He was appointed Senior Pilot of No.800 Squadron in 1992 before moving to the Standards Squadron in 1993 and is currently Senior Pilot with No.899 Squadron. A keen student of things vintage, David also flies the Hawker Sea Hawk of the Navy's Historic Flight.”
Dave then became CO of 800NAS in August 1997. He was awarded an MBE in 1998 for services rendered. Later Dave returned to Oz - TamWorth, NSW.
______________________________________________________

'SATCOWB' just at the end of the video above at 8min 18sec, walking back along the deck is John Siebert a contemporary of Andy Sinclair on 800NAS c.1984 or so. John had been an exchange pilot with USMC Harriers and earlier was an LSO with the A4G. John is back in Oz whilst Andy remains in UK near RNAS Culdrose I believe.

[Buster Hyman]

A4G 887 was easily repaired to be flown back to NAS Nowra the next day - rugged airframe indeed. 887 had years earlier carried out a drop tank arrested landing at NAS Barbers Point, Oahu
That tail number rang a bell. It was the supplied decal for a model I built as a kid...amazingly, I still have a photo of it! I wonder why they chose 887 for the model...
(I won't post it just in case its considered to 'add nothing'...)

[SpazSinbad]

'Buster' 887 was an original A4G - all in 88X series were. One of my favourite A4G photos is of 887 in early days - I'll post it later. Those A4Gs in 87X series side numbered were second hand refurbished ex USN A-4Fs (with all the good bits removed). Former A4G 887 still flies today with DRAKEN, one of the six ex-A4Gs bought by Draken from the Kiwis (converted to KAHU standard c.1991) a few years back to fly again in the USofA. 887 became NZ6214 then N144EM with DRAKEN.

Former 887 now DRAKEN: https://www.flickr.com/photos/eor1/28295842072/ Green paint scheme is last Kiwi KAHU scheme (without all the DRAKEN folderol).

IF you are interested in the history of any A4G each one has a file here but you will have to register with Microsoft for FREE to view or download any file there for FREE - if you do not register you will NOT see anything (I'm on GoogleDrive also):

Folder: RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk PDFs
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=CBCD63D6340707E6%21119&cid=CBCD63D6340707E6

100Mb PDF: A4G 887 ONLY pp150 from 14feb2015NEWranFAAskyhawkA4G.pdf

There are other individual A4G files - usually 50Mb PDFs in this folder because that was the limit yonks ago.

Also here is some info about John Siebert mentioned above:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/SiebertUSMCexchangeHarrierVisitsUK1980forum.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/SiebertUSMCexchangeHarrierVisitsUK1980forum.jpg.html)

[SpazSinbad]

The photo taken from deck MELBOURNE 1970 with the barricade in a heap in btm right corner. The original DULL dove grey & white paint scheme seen. Later a high gloss similar paint scheme avoided the blemishes from leaks etc. and the straight probe replaced with the bent jobbie about the same time c.1972. Deck Height above Sea = 37.5 feet

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/887amp888lowFlyByMELBOURNEdeck1970forum.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/887amp888lowFlyByMELBOURNEdeck1970forum.jpg.html)

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/MELBOURNEdeckHeight37.5feetForum.gif~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/MELBOURNEdeckHeight37.5feetForum.gif.html)

[SpazSinbad]

On page five of this thread 'jed thrust' had the Baddams nicknames correct: http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/304312-r-i-p-skyhawks-5.html#post3921101

'BentStick' made a comment that is just wrong concerned about ground refuelling via ARF probe: http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/304312-r-i-p-skyhawks.html#post3770938
"...I was often left wondering whether what the RNZAF did to survive was innovative or stupid (Ground refuelling Skyhawks via the ARP with engines running was one that springs to mind)...."
That was a well known and used ground refueling technique ashore in RAN FAA & RNZAF & onboard MELBOUNRE (pics to follow?).

Probe Refuel Onboard MELBOURNE: http://s217.photobucket.com/user/crycookie/media/blowjob.jpg.html

Then KIWIs do it for themselves at NAS Nowra & somewhere else UnKnown - Oh the Horror....

I see lots of A4Gs photos now missing from this thread (so I don't know what was being shown) but anyway I know about the 'mixed formation photo from Air Day 1969 at NAS Nowra' and it'll be here soonish like.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/886airDay1969nowraDAKformFORUM.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/886airDay1969nowraDAKformFORUM.jpg.html)

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/KIWIskyhawksHotRefuelProbeFORUM.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/KIWIskyhawksHotRefuelProbeFORUM.jpg.html)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc159/crycookie/blowjob.jpg (http://s217.photobucket.com/user/crycookie/media/blowjob.jpg.html)

[megan]

Spaz, you seem to be source to go to, talking to Jack Mayfield yesterday and wondering where Malcolm McCoy's home town was. Jack had no recall, any ideas?

[Airbubba]

Bonus picture..........notice the main gear.

http://a4skyhawk.info/sites/default/files/images-a4-buno/148483.jpg

Reminds me of an ex-Indian Airlines A320 if you know what I mean. ;)

I saw a civilian A-4 that looked like it was going to Red Flag a few days ago on ADS-B.

Probably one of these guys:

Why Is the Air Force Using Jet-Flying Mercenaries? | The National Interest Blog (http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-the-air-force-using-jet-flying-mercenaries-14970)

[SpazSinbad]

Oddly enough I met Mal & Bruiser only briefly (they were course mates on No.10 A4G OFS [Andy Sinclair was also on this OFS] whilst I was away from Nowra) & left soon after - YakYak knows the score (Jack was in No.6 A4G OFS with Siebert - I was on No.3). I'll enquire. You could ask on the FAAAA website: Lost Contacts - By Name | Fleet Air Arm Association of Australia (http://www.faaaa.asn.au/lost-contacts-name/)

Ask the webmaster Marcus Peake to add your query there: [email protected]

I see the RAN History web page for VF-805 has a nice photo of Mal (this would have been his RAAF Graduation photo taken at the end of No.89 RAAF Basic/Advanced Flying Training 01 Oct 1973 - 05 Jul 1974:

No.89 Pilot Course Graduation photo:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.955541007796544.1073741933.700719019945412&type=3

http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/styles/content_image_full_width/public/SBLT_McCoy_in_Macchi.jpg

http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/styles/content_image_full_width/public/SBLT_McCoy_in_Macchi.jpg

I'm not sure if there is a small PDF online about the fatal accident 872 collision with 870 on 17 Jul 1975 involving Mal, however I know it is in the 4.4Gb PDF online at Ms OneDrive or GoogleDrive on the SpazSinbad pages. I could see if the text pages could be compressed to post here - not sure.... Found it - seven page text PDF 1.5Mb here:

Summary of loss of RAN A-4G 872 by CMDR John Crawley. RAN (Rtd) RAN FAA Touchdown Magazine 1/98

http://3j8lrq31uyjk1yo9b01c7jub.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Skyhawk870-872Crawley.pdf

[SpazSinbad]

'Airbubba' the six single seat green humpless A-4K Kahus of DRAKEN International are all ex-A4G (both original or second-hand USN A-4Fs), ex-A-4K Kahu upgraded by RNZAF, sold several years ago after being stored inside then outside for about a decade by NZed gubmint. The ex-TA-4K are RNZAF original KAHUs - one crashed recently - pilot ejected OK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqMsKsE0SrM

[Airbubba]

The ex-TA-4K are RNZAF original KAHUs - one crashed recently - pilot ejected OK.

Thanks for the video! :ok:

Looks like the plane that crashed last August was N140EM, which you can see at 1:21 in the video.

The A-4 I saw going into Nellis a few days ago was another Echo Mike as I recall but I didn't scribble down the number.

[SpazSinbad]

Brazil Gives Up Modernization Plans for Aircraft Carrier Sao Paulo, Prepares for Decommissioning 15 Feb 2017
"According to Brazilian daily newspaper Estado, the Brazilian Navy (Marinha do Brasil) has just decided to decommission its sole aircraft carrier Sao Paulo (hull number A12) acquired from France in 2000. Brazil has long been considering a modernization plan for the aircraft carrier with French naval shipbuilding group DCNS, but according to Estado, "modernization costs were considered excessive by the admiralty".

Modernization plans included the replacement of the entire propulsion system, catapults and combat system. According to Estado, the modernization would have cost in excess of 1 Billion Brazilian Reals ($324 Million USD approx.).

The decommissioning process is set to begin immediately and will only be completed by 2020. The three-step procedure would require 10 years of work. The remaining A-4 Skyhawk fighters of the Sao Paulo airwing will continue to operate from the Sao Pedro da Aldeia Base...."
Brazil Gives Up Modernization Plans for Aircraft Carrier Sao Paulo, Prepares for Decommissioning (http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/february-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4895-brazil-gives-up-modernization-plans-for-aircraft-carrier-sao-paulo-prepares-for-decommissioning.html)

[sandiego89]

Interesting (but not surprising) decision on the Sao Paulo. Thanks for posting Spaz. Likely the end of South American carriers for the foreseeable future. I don't see any new build or surplus cat and trap carriers coming on the market, perhaps a STOBAR carrier but no one really would want those after the poor showing in the med this year would they? Any surplus or new build STOVL carrier would require the air wing to go with it , leaving second hand Harrier II's or the too expensive F-35B.

[Heathrow Harry]

Conrad Waters in his "Navies of the 21st Century" (a good read) suggests that whilst "real" carriers will probably be restricted to the USA, China & India in the foreseeable future there is a whole range of vessels avalable that can operate various combinations of fixed wing, STOBAR, STOVL & helicopters ranging from the QE's through the Kuznetsov to the Japanese "helicopter carrying destroyers" and the various assualt ships such as Juan Carlos and even the Karel Doorman.

You get what you pay for but you could see quite a few operating small numbers of F-35's - at least for a short while - which maybe all you need. Horses for courses

[MPN11]

NATO 'partners' buying a few F-35s could get them off the 2% of GDP hook ;)

[sandiego89]

Conrad Waters in his "Navies of the 21st Century" (a good read) suggests that whilst "real" carriers will probably be restricted to the USA, China & India in the foreseeable future there is a whole range of vessels avalable that can operate various combinations of fixed wing, STOBAR, STOVL & helicopters ranging from the QE's through the Kuznetsov to the Japanese "helicopter carrying destroyers" and the various assualt ships such as Juan Carlos and even the Karel Doorman.

You get what you pay for but you could see quite a few operating small numbers of F-35's - at least for a short while - which maybe all you need. Horses for courses


Agree that we will see a variety of interesting aviation capable ships, and a few smaller carriers operating F-35B's. Beside the US and UK operating the B as STOVL, I would not be surprised with Japan getting a few B's for those nifty new "destroyers".


Will the ski jump on Canberra prove too tempting not to use?


Looks like Italy is making moves towards making their STOVL carrier B capable but politics seem to continue on the A/B mix, while Spain seems to be biding their time.


I was more commenting that the two South American countries that have operated carriers will likely be out of the fixed wing carrier borne business entirely. Doubt they could afford the F-35B, or a new or second hand carrier and air-wing of any type.

[Davef68]

Agree that we will see a variety of interesting aviation capable ships, and a few smaller carriers operating F-35B's. Beside the US and UK operating the B as STOVL, I would not be surprised with Japan getting a few B's for those nifty new "destroyers".


Will the ski jump on Canberra prove too tempting not to use?


They have said on a couple of occasions that the infrastucture on the ship would need to be completely redone to operate F35s. Whether they could operate on a one off basis is open to debate, but I'd imagine some changes needed (Deck coating for a start)




I was more commenting that the two South American countries that have operated carriers will likely be out of the fixed wing carrier borne business entirely. Doubt they could afford the F-35B, or a new or second hand carrier and air-wing of any type.

Unless the Chinese want to get into the carrier export business

[Heathrow Harry]

sandiego

You are right - the cost of any form of new conventional carrier is eye watering. Most of the older vessels now retiring were hand-me-downs from the western navies stock built in the 50's or 60's (or even older)

I think Waters point is that there are more options now - and you don't have to commit to (say) the F-35 right now - you buy a Mistral and it will last you 40 years - if, in the future you can afford the F-35 or there are some early models coming free then you can change your mind.

For someone like Brazil it probably makes more sense to spend their $$ on the SSBN programme right now

[SpazSinbad]

'Davef68' said:
"...Will the ski jump on Canberra prove too tempting not to use?...
They [I presume the OzGubmnt] have said on a couple of occasions that the infrastucture on the ship would need to be completely redone to operate F35s....
Exactly the opposite is said because the Oz LHDs were designed by Spanish as per JCI to operate F-35Bs. Sure deck coating and minor mods needed in light of new info but nothing dramatic nor expensive - however it won't happen because no interest at moment - if ever - to put RAAF F-35Bs temporarily on Oz LHDs.

[Davef68]

'Davef68' said:

Exactly the opposite is said because the Oz LHDs were designed by Spanish as per JCI to operate F-35Bs. Sure deck coating and minor mods needed in light of new info but nothing dramatic nor expensive - however it won't happen because no interest at moment - if ever - to put RAAF F-35Bs temporarily on Oz LHDs.
PM's floating fighter jet plan quietly sunk by Defence | afr.com (http://www.afr.com/news/politics/pms-floating-fighter-jet-plan-quietly-sunk-by-defence-20150707-gi6qxj?stb=twt#ixzz4Yr7in5nF)

But defence officials conceded to a Senate estimates committee late last year that the jump-jet proposal would involve extensive modifications to the ships, including new radar systems, instrument landing systems, heat-resistant decking, restructuring of fuel storage and fuel lines, and storage hangars.

[Heathrow Harry]

I'll bet once they arrive the RAN will move heaven and earth to "try them out" - you know, one off removable pad, nice weather, close to shore ....... "just in case"

[Davef68]

The RAAF are getting As, the suggestion to look at the B was made by the politicians in the run up to their 2015 Defence Review

[SpazSinbad]

'Davef68' I'm glad this thread about RIPing the Skyhawks (a new one?) has been overtaken NOT BY ME (the notorious thread jacker) for 'yet another moan about Oz F-35Bs on Oz LHDs'. The AFR article cited tells an outright lie:
"...The Spanish Navy's version of the troop transport assault ship, which utilises the same underlying design as the Royal Australian Navy's troop assault ship, is equipped to carry Harrier jump jets...."
And yet the JCI was designed (many years ago granted) to operate the F-35B with info known at that time.

I get that a lot of ADFers do not want Oz F-35Bs on Oz LHDs. My view in a nutshell would be IF the RAAF have a role for some F-35Bs ashore (it has been mentioned in passing recently by an RAAF AVM) then a few RAAF F-35Bs could be embarked on our LHDs - IF REQUIRED for Fleet Defence and then disembarked when not required. Yep embarked for the odd training session, whilst the F-35B is a piece of cake to fly onboard in STOVL mode by all pilot accounts, it should be a doddle for any RAAFie CHAPpie.

But hey I don't want to derail this thread about SKYHAWKS. I happen to have participated in the Fleet Defence A4G era when four A4Gs were embarked on the ASW carrier HMAS Melbourne from 1969 - 1971 (I was late 1971 to early 1972). We were at the back of the bus. Later when ten more Skyhawks arrived to flesh out the numbers/roles onboard then - when the threat went away - the A4Gs of VF-805 took on other roles.

Modifications mentioned for embarking F-35Bs on LHDs are not expensive in the overall scheme of things. Ships are modified during refits quite a bit, as MELBOURNE demonstrated to enable operation of the A4Gs & S2Es early on - then modified again because first deck mods were not good enough <sigh>. Having F-35B H8ters exaggerate their claims 'why things cannot be done' is not new. Look at the long running thread here about the F-35. And yet IF the F-35B IS required on Oz LHDs it will be made so - and without much fuss.
______________________

"...Separately, the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) has mentioned the possibility of a further Super Hornet order, apparently without much conviction, while also suggesting the F-35B...

...The service [RAAF] seems to still harbor hopes of an all-Lightning fighter and strike force. In a little-noticed address to an ASPI meeting in July, the head of the RAAF, Air Marshal Leo Davies, listed the candidates for Australia’s next combat-aircraft program as Super Hornets, F-35As and F-35Bs.

Davies did not explain the merits of the third, quite surprising option, the F-35B. But an obvious possibility is that Australia has begun to wonder about the survivability of its northern airbases in the face of attack by Chinese cruise and ballistic missiles...." 21 Oct 2016 http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/report-raises-chance-more-australian-fa-18-super-hornets

FULL TEXT HERE: http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=354900&hilit=mythical#p354900

The 'politicians' at that time 2015 were significant - the now former PM and now former DefMin.