Confession to make

[2ndGen]

Hi there, I have a confession to make. I've got absolutely useless a/c recognition. I'm more concerned with learning about those used by the airlines, all the boeings and airbuses etc. Are there any main features of some a/c that are bleeding obvious once they have been pointed out to you that some of you could tell me please? eg. 2nd deck on 747's, also differences in models, eg wingtips on some 737 models? Also, is there a standard way to tell the difference between boeing and airbus a/c? I live 5 mins from an a/c viewing area for a major airport and can watch just about any a/c there is on final or t/o but no point if i have no reference to learn which are which. Thanks for any help.

[clown82]

One main difference between most Boeing's and Airbus's is the nose. Boeings often have a more sharp nose than Airbus's, which have a more smooth/flowed/round nose. You might also want to compare using airliners.net Photo Search.

Compare:
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=11482
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/202/514807945_441c4d141b.jpg

[dartagnan]

airbus 320 has some mini winglet, when the 737 has none except for the NG which has big winglet.
and the 737 has a small window above the pilots.

this is what bug me, some pilots have no clue how to recognise aircrafts.Dont they teach you that in your flight schools??.
you should make the difference between a twin turboprop like king air, a small jet like the citation, and know the difference between fokker, airbus, boeing....and know how jet fighters look like(tornado, falcon 15-18, mirage, rafale,...)in case you are intercepted.

[Artie Fufkin]

Aircraft recognition does have relevance on a pilot forum. The safety issue of being given a conditional ATC clearance based on type recognition was discussed in CHIRPS about a year ago.

If you are told "Line up and wait behind landing A330" you need to know what they look like. The airport I did most of my VFR training at had a huge traffic pattern and I was regularly told eg "follow the Pilatus on base". Solution was to buy Janes Aircraft Recognition Guide.

Incidentally, Dartagnan;

The A320-100 has no winglets
It is possible to fit winglets to 737 classics (our company considered it)
Some 737 NGs do not have winglets
Not all 737s have the small windows (ours are being removed!)

:8

[ShyTorque]

I always have trouble with those little Fokkers. :uhoh:

[chornedsnorkack]

What are the little Fokkers?

The biggest Fokkers are the Fokker jets. Yet their general structure is rather conventional. 2 tailmounted engines and T-tail configuration is shared by Fokkers (F-28, F-70, F-100), BAC 1-11, the whole DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/B-717/ARJ21 family, Tu-134, Bombardier CRJ, most business jets... how do you identify a specific model?

[2ndGen]

Thanks for your help. You are right about recognising traffic Artie but I've had no training in that at my school. I'm applying for Qantas Cadetship and I know they will test me on these things. All we need to know at the airfield I train at is the difference between a Grob and a Piper, or Katana and Tobago, they train with almost nothing else there, but yes i totally agree i need to learn more and here I am. Will check out airliners.net too, thanks heaps clown. There is so much to learn beyond what is in my CPL theory books.

[Gulf4uk]

"
All we need to know at the airfield I train at is the difference between a Grob and a Piper, or Katana and Tobago, they train with almost nothing else there, but yes i totally agree i need to learn more and here I am."
hi
one of the most important things to Remember is which aircraft you learn to fly on has Fixed undercarriage or one that hasn't . Forgetting to put wheels down
is Nasty unless your in a Sea type Plane . I can hear the laughter from Here but how many have forgotten to check Wheels or will admit it
Tony
Farnborough

[chornedsnorkack]

Wheels are also one recognition sign for some aircraft. Boeing 777 has 6 wheel bogies, which is a sign distinguishing it from B767 and Airbus 330, that both have 4 wheel bogies. Tu-154 also has 6 wheel bogies in contrast to Boeing 727 with 2 wheels each leg.

[Gulf4uk]

Another very good reason to learn all types Civil and Mil is when you
are in some far flung part of world And turning Finels and thinking those parked
light aircraft look as if they have Missiles and finding out they Do .Foriegn
Hospitlity in some parts leaves much to be desired as do there Jails

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<If you are told "Line up and wait behind landing A330" >>
Which, of course, no air traffic controller would EVER say, artie fufkin.

2nd gen... The very obvious answer to your problem is to buy a book on aircraft recognition.

[Artie Fufkin]

Don't want to be cheeky, but has new RT been introduced since last winter's CHIRPS report (pasted below) regarding conditional clearances based on landing a/c type? My understanding is that we still get these "line up after landing xxx type".

Like I said, not trying to contradict you, just interested. :confused:

Conditional Clearances - Aircraft Identification
(1)
Report Text: An old chestnut - I am not happy with the "line up after" or "cross the (active) runway after" conditional instructions. There is always plenty of time to line up if given the instruction to do so as the landing aircraft crosses the "hedge" and be ready to cross after the landing aircraft has passed.
In both of the above cases I am often given the added instruction "... after the next 'Scruggs Bearcat 420"'. This is rather presumptive that my aircraft recognition is to such a level that I know what a Scruggs Bearcat 420 actually looks like as opposed to a Scruggs Bearcat 419 and can then comply with the ATC request. Years ago I was given the instruction to "Line up after the next landing DC8" which I duly repeated to ATC. As the aircraft came into visual contact I saw it wasn't a DC8 but a Viscount or VC8. Supposing it had been a DC8 followed by a VC8 and I had lined up after I saw my DC8, I would have entered the runway contrary to the intended instruction ahead of the following VC8.
OK, so you will tell me that I will never be given a conditional instruction based on a second event, in which case why do I need to know the type of aircraft? Just say "the next landing" or "passing" aircraft. But better still wait until it has landed or passed and then say, "Line-up" or "Cross". Keep it simple! To confuse the issue, ATC refer to a certain aircraft as the RJ100. It entered service as the BAE146, which is how I always remember it.
Not too long ago I was waiting to cross Runway ##R on the way to Runway ##L and instructed to "cross ##R after the next landing A320". Looking out of the window to get the picture and hopefully see the same picture that the controller was seeing, I noticed an aircraft with main wheels on the tarmac and the nose wheel about to join them. Was this the "next landing A320" as it seemed to me to have already landed; was it an A320 (or a 319?) or was the A320 in question still on finals? In my mind so many questions about an instruction that in the controller's mind was probably ever so simple. Trying subtly to make a point, I replied that my aircraft recognition wasn't that good and was that an A320 that I saw on the runway and the same A320 to which the controller was referring or was he referring to another A320 yet to land? The controller's attitude was not to see my point but to take a rather castigatory, petty and retaliatory stance by cancelling my instruction to cross the runway, making me wait for the next landing traffic.
You might believe I am rather stretching the point and making an issue out of nothing. I must stress however that in all forms of communication (written and verbal) it is important to understand that others comply with what they think you said and not what you intended to say. The meaning of your instructions therefore lies in the mind of the receiver. If there is any doubt or confusion it is here that it will be misconstrued. Instructions should therefore be given such that they could not be open to misinterpretation or be ambiguous. Do controllers receive any training that introduces this philosophy?
(2)
Report Text: We were cleared to cross the runway "after the landing Embraer". Actually it was a Bombardier. A little more precision from ATC would be appreciated with such clearances. Perhaps they should include the airline too, to assist identification.
(3)
Report Text: Whilst taxying along a grass taxiway/runway in an Islander aircraft, a Trislander was cleared to taxi to the same holding point behind me. A light aircraft carrying an "N" registration operated by a person whose first language was obviously not English called for taxy. This aircraft was parked alongside the taxiway it was on. The aircraft was cleared to taxy to the same holding point as both the Islander and Trislander. The actual phrase used was "N … to holding point XX behind the Trislander".
The light aircraft then proceeded to follow me, in the Islander, not looking down the taxiway where I had come from to see the Trislander. This resulted in, from where I was looking, a very close call. The Trislander came to a complete stop as did the light aircraft.
I am unsure of how the situation was resolved as by now I was back-tracking the runway. Before I left the frequency, I could hear the tower controller giving the light aircraft pilot a telling off, for a problem which could have been solved simply by saying "N … follow the second aircraft, a yellow Trislander", since the term Islander and Trislander could be so easily confused over the radio as was evident in this situation.
I have received many ambiguous clearances as I'm sure most pilots have, but an event as silly as this, especially on a relatively quiet airfield just shouldn't happen.
CHIRP Comment: The ATC view is that conditional clearances are required to achieve arrival/departure rates at many UK airports, and are safe provided that they are used correctly. One of the conclusions of a recent trial in the UK, in which conditional clearances were not used, was that flight crews reported that their situational awareness was adversely affected.
As with other RTF messages, the vital point is that the recipient understands clearly the instruction. For this reason, the correct sequence of a conditional clearance instruction and the readback should be always to state the condition prior to the clearance.
Also, the use of aircraft types and company identifiers as the basis for a conditional clearance can contribute to uncertainty as two of the reports indicate; one example being when an aircraft's paint scheme does not accord with the flight callsign.
As noted, conditional clearances against landing traffic should only be given against the first landing aircraft; if this is not the type stated by ATC in the clearance instruction, the logical and safe option is to hold position and query the clearance.

[11Fan]

Don't ever remember seeing the 797 on the ramp. Nice one Clown82.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/202/514807945_441c4d141b.jpg

[red 5]

Of course it's always difficult to recognise a/c at night, however a quick way to spot between an Airbus and Boeing is the wing tip strobe lights. Airbus ones have a double flash and Boeing a/c have a single flash, silly i know.

[Blues&twos]

Red 5 - knowing this little fact got me into trouble. Laying on the trampoline in the back garden romantically watching the recent meteor shower with my wife I suddenly said " That's an Airbus, that is" as a high altitude a/c came into view. She replied " Get a f***ing life" and went back in the house.

Women, eh?

[red 5]

Blues&Two's i know what you mean, i've been called a few things too. However as a Licensed aircraft engineer i've walked around a few aircraft in the past 30 years checking the lights as part of the daily check and it's always those tiny stupid little details that stick in my tiny mind.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Artie - Like soooo many pilots, you missed the point. No controller says "LIne up after, etc". What he will say is "AFTER the landing/departing... line up".

Theory being that the first word the pilot hears is the condition "After". He doesn't hear "Line up" and start moving before hearing the conditional bit.

It's a safe, effective way of delivering an instruction in a potentially dangerous situation. If all pilots adopted the same R/T procedures as ATC a lot of incidents might be avoided.

[2ndGen]

Thanks for your help guys absolutely brilliant, especially the boeing/airbus nose shape. I have assessments with QF for the cadetship and I need to know it all or so I am told. Cheers again.

[AircraftOperations]

Although MD-11s (and DC-10s???) have a double wingtip-flash, just to confuse you.

Embraer 170s/190s have very very bright single wingtip-flash.

If you are close enough to the aircraft, the noise is also a dead giveaway.

[maffie]

Apart from a couple of "wierd ones" most Airbus wing tips have the arrow head formation that sits on the edge and goes above and below the wing. Where as the Boeings are blended and rise upwards, or don't have them. Just don't look at the A330

Rgds
Matt