Falklands again

[GANNET FAN]

I read this morning that the new Argentine president was doing the usual posturing over the Falklands and how they must be handed back etc, according to the UN Articles etc.

I believe the Argentine financial situation isn't that good, but what possibility is there that they could mobilise a force to march in, or attempt to, what do you think HMG/MoD would do? Also you in the Military, what would your reaction be.

I'm not in the Forces although some of my family are, but it got me thinking. On the one hand I would be as angry as most if the Argentinians took it a stage further but wonder what Brown & Browne would do.

GF

[Bob Viking]

They'd probably offer them a lifetime peerage in exchange for a little less sabre rattling!
Ooh get me. What a bitch!!
BV:}

[mustflywillfly]

It would certainly give some F3 mates something constructive to do with their time. :}

[Widger]

It also puts into sharp focus the comments from some quarters (Jacko) that the CVF programme should be scrapped, due to the current crises we are engaged in. We need to future proof ourselves. This region is going to become more and more valuable in the decades to come. The Antarctic treaty which has 46 signatories now, is up for modification in 2011. The Falkland Islands are the UK's closest deep water port and airfield to the territory that the UK claims. Without a strong PURPLE presence in that region, we will get "turned over" by those other nations inthe area, who will claim the oil and mineral rights for themselves. You only have to look at what is going on in the Arctic with Russia and Canada to see what is happening.

Gone are the wars of ideology and religion, we are entering an age of wars over resources (although you could argue Japan's entry into WWII was over resources).We need to be prepared and that means a truely mobile Army, a strong and logistically competent airforce with a strong sea-base to support both those operations.

[Gainesy]

The good lady can come and posture at me anytime she likes...
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/system/files?file=images/070702_kirchner_0.jpg

[Skipness One Echo]

You know reading the article in The Sunday Times regarding the lack of warships and HMG not paying for the ones we do have to sail anyway, we couldn't retake the Falklands even if we had to. Well done Gordon Broon, hope you're proud, history will judge you as you deserve......

[Magnersdrinker]

Well we there is some hope , XH558 is now airborne again ;)

[Razor61]

Well we there is some hope , XH558 is now airborne again

With hardly any tankers to support it so we couldn't even do that either!

But then we could send down one of our Carriers and beat the Skyhawks back with our Sea Harriers.... errr.... same Government got rid of them too!
GR9s with sidewinders it is then!

[Kitbag]

GR9s with sidewinders it is then!

Someone's bound to suggest the nuclear option of chopping a couple of Har Sqns as a cost saving measure.

Still if we gave up/lost the FI we'd all be able to claim op allowances wouldn't we?

[South Bound]

Submarine with a remit to sink anything and everything military entering 'British' waters would do the trick. Not too worried about the immediate Air threat, but any invasion in suitable numbers would need to come by sea. No messing about, a clear message that says 'don't cross the line' then follow it up with a spearfish or 2 at anything that wants to try. Of course, if they want to start hostilities, just sink them wherever they are until they go away. Maybe even a Tomahawk with no warhead (Initially) into the BA Town Square.

Make it absolutely clear that we do not have the time or energy to mess about and then sort it out in the UN afterwards.

[Hamish 123]

With people still bleating about the Belgrano and whether it was steaming towards/away from the Task Force (like it makes a difference which way it was heading . . . .), can you imagine the outcry were another Argie ship to be sunk, even if it was pounding away at Port Stanley at the time!

[Razor61]

Submarine with a remit to sink anything and everything military entering 'British' waters would do the trick. Not too worried about the immediate Air threat, but any invasion in suitable numbers would need to come by sea. No messing about, a clear message that says 'don't cross the line' then follow it up with a spearfish or 2 at anything that wants to try. Of course, if they want to start hostilities, just sink them wherever they are until they go away. Maybe even a Tomahawk with no warhead (Initially) into the BA Town Square.

Make it absolutely clear that we do not have the time or energy to mess about and then sort it out in the UN afterwards.

My thoughts exactly with the SSN's, it worked last time re: Argentine Navy ****ting themselves. But i don't think our Government would have the guts to fire a Tomahawk into Argentina, even if we had too. Anyway, we might have one SSN available (if it isn't leaking, rusting or in refit or mothballed) to go down there otherwise we might have to rely on the shiny red Endurance with her two Lynx armed with scientists.

[WannaBeCiv]

I think the point is not that we couldn't retake the Falklands but that the land/sea/air assets that we have in theatre will certainly prevent the Argentinians from taking them in the first place.

RIC v Argentinian army I know who my money is on!

[ChristiaanJ]

Well there is some hope, XH558 is now airborne again
I told them not to take that bombing computer out.....

[GreenKnight121]

And if the Argies commandeer privately-owned merchant vessels to transport the troops and equipment?

With their civilian crews and some other foreign nationals aboard "as observers"?

Just quietly load them aboard at night, get them all near the islands, and sail one into Port Stanley (with the troops below-decks) under pretext of a mechanical problem?

And then declare war, with the radio broadcast being the signal to "disembark troops"?

And use merchant ships for all troop (and UK citizen evacuation/"repatriation" via Uruguay) operations... all warships being kept well clear?

OK, then what?

[Double Zero]

I'm sure they can work it out for themselves, after all some of the Argentinian chaps showed great iniative in 1982 ( in a strange way I think from their point of view the chap/s who engineered the trailer launched Exocet for instance were well worth a medal and even a decent lifestyle ).

On the other hand, don't give them ideas, we did that with publishing the withdrawal of Endurance 1...I expect they have enough 'intelligence' - in every way including Spike Milligan - to know not to try it but...

[knowitall]

"And if the Argies commandeer privately-owned merchant vessels to transport the troops and equipment? "

hence the word Total, in Total Exclusion Zone

[Double Zero]

WEBF,

a cue for you & the Seajet - as you should know I completely agree with you - hope you enjoyed the pics on the 'Seajet' thread...

The Harrier 2+ is now so obvious a choice it's painfull...

[Double Zero]

Nostrinian,

Sounds sensible to me and no doubt a lot of others - I thought I was reasonably informed but the F-16's are disturbing news to me - though obviously depends on tanks / tankers, weapons fit etc...

We've had too much bleating lately about ' couldn't manage another Falklands War ' etc, giving the wrong message - get the Astute /s going asap, Trafalgars being a bit obvious in the meantime & some off-the shelf AMRAAM carrying Harrier 2+ on a CVS ( or even one or two on other 'platforms' & stop sodding around - Las Malvinas ain't going to happen !

[Razor61]

Send the Red Arrows down there in a few An124s... that might do the trick! :}

[Double Zero]

Well actually ( as in Monty Python )

You could do worse than send the Red's there - apart from rodgering their 'standard' useful role, their Hawks are T1a's, so able to remove the diesel-smoke tanks ( fit arranged by my father at Dunsfold, birth & development place of the Hawk ) & able to carry Sidewinders - relying on the seeker heads so home defence really but would probably do rather well along with AMRAAM F-3's or hopefully -if bugs ironed out - Typhoons.

I do believe seriously we as a country need Harrier 2+, it would integrate very well with JFH; as for flying from Stanley, 2 phrases spring to mind whatever a/c we put there; 'eggs in one basket' , & ' Black Buck'...

[GreenKnight121]

So, knowitall... which UK politician is going to declare your "total exclusion zone" before anything happens at all?

If you had bothered to read my post, rather than just glancing at it, you would find that the first clue the UK would have would be the declaration of the invasion over the radio... which would come AFTER the merchies in question were within a few miles of Port Stanley... except for the one already in there, with the soldiers boiling up from belowdecks and onto the warf seconds later.

But then, apparently MI-6 would have a firm handle on things, and Brown would already have issued orders to sink the merchies first, right?

[Albert Driver]

Nice picture of the Her Majesty's Troopship Queen Victoria posted earlier.

Problem is both Cunard and P&O are now US-owned.

Isle of Wight ferry available, though.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Problem is both Cunard and P&O are now US-owned.

Isn't the Queen Victoria registered in London?

I always believed it was the port of register that determined which ships could be called up for service rather than the ownership of the vessels?

[knowitall]

"So, knowitall... which UK politician is going to declare your "total exclusion zone" before anything happens at all?"

you can sink the other vessels and the re-supply though,

though if you can mount an invasion with half a dozen merchant ships it does make you wonder why our Navy (and yours for that matter) spend so much money on LPH/LPD's etc

[Albert Driver]

I always believed it was the port of register that determined which ships could be called up for service rather than the ownership of the vessels?

And if the White House didn't support the action (which they wouldn't because it is not clear that we would win this time)?

[cornish-stormrider]

Surely you didn't realise that we still have Maggie..........
Why do you think we kept her warm in the Lords for all these years??
As soon as it starts getting tricky Gordy an Swiss Des will all get the heave-ho and we combat start the Thatcher.

Mission 1, we long haul as many assets down south by private air
Mission 2, we "borrow" a spare carrier of the septics. We've always been good at that.

Mission 3 we intercept some Bears etc and force them to land, thereby aquireing some long range maritme strike.

Mission 4 We go to TVOC....

It will take a bit more land bases to borrow to get it down there

Mission 5 We issue ROE wie that states last man standing is the winner an start pasting people.

Mission 6 Big load of tea and medals along with Thachos rebuilding the forces to what we deserve them to be

[ChristiaanJ]

Mission 3..... Brilliant :D

[RobinXe]

Worth a read (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ghost-Force-Patrick-Robinson/dp/0099474352/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197856426&sr=8-1). Its quite insightful!

[Razor61]

Going back to my point re: Red Arrows in FI.
Just out of interest (i know it's silly :rolleyes:), what chance would the Hawk/pilots have if they were to augment the Tornado F3s down there with Sidewinders and the Aden against the Argie Skyhawks and Mirages?
I should imagine the Hawk can out manoeuvre the Skyhawk or can it?

[GeeRam]

Just out of interest (i know it's silly ), what chance would the Hawk/pilots have if they were to augment the Tornado F3s down there with Sidewinders and the Aden against the Argie Skyhawks and Mirages?
I should imagine the Hawk can out manoeuvre the Skyhawk or can it?
Anally speaking:}, the Argie's have retired all their Skyhawks, and now just have the 32 x single seat A-4AR Fightinghawk's which were reworked/upgraded ex-USMC A-4M's....and delivered from Lockheed-Martin in the USA between 1997 and 1999.

In the production of the aircraft, AAF technicians choose 32 A-4M and 4 TA-4F airframes from AMRAC. The up gradation process included complete overhaul of airframe, wires and engine, Douglas Escapac 1-G3 ejection seats, ALR-39 chaff or flare dispenser, Northrop Grumman AN/ALR-93 (V) 1radar warning receiver, 2 general dynamics information systems AN/AYK-14 mission computers, HGU-55/P helmet, Honeywell Normal Air-Garrett's on board oxygen generation system, MIL-STD-1553B data bus, Litton/Northrop-Grumman LN-100G inertial navigation system, Westinghouse/Northrop Grumman AN/APG-66V2 radar, Sextant Avionique/Thales Avionics SHUD and HOTAS controls and a 'glass' cockpit.

[Double Zero]

Let me be quite clear, I'm not a pilot but worked on the Hawk & Harrier development trials at Dunsfold & elsewhere - ( before the designs were assimilated by the Borg to keep the Wart On wonder-bomber factory going ).

I wouldn't put my own money on an A-4 in AAC-if they were around - think the Hawk would run rings round them; The news of F-16's is a bit unsettling though !

The R.A.F. Hawks are about the crudest going, compared to export versions, but no doubt some mod' schemes would spring up, just as they did in a limited extent for Harrier FRS1's 25 years ago.

There are various modes with newish Sidewinders which make them very useful even without other sensors, so relatively 'stealthy' too combined with the Hawk airframe - though it is still a short range weapon especially against a fast retreating target.

There's always the Hawk 200 as well, which the R.A.F. have drooled over but never been able to fund ( if buying anything however for ---- sake go for Harrier 2+ )...

The H200 is not AMRAAM capable as far as I know due to launch velocity ( often wondered if a rocket-assisted version of the missile would be worthwhile ) but can use other medium range AA weapons - 'local' punters might be surprised at the stores the Hawk can carry.

P.S, I wouldn't like to be near the Houchin / cross on a hill with earth leads able to give M.Thatcher a re-start !

[GreenKnight121]

Note that these 32 single-seat aircraft have the 11,200 lb.s.t. J52-P-408 engine [rather than the 8,400 lb.s.t. J65-W-20 of the Comando de Aviacion Naval Argentina's A-4Qs (refurbished A-4Bs), or the 7,700 lb.s.t. J65-W-16A of the Fuerza Aerea Argentina's A-4Ps (refurbished A-4B/Cs) that flew in the Falklands War].

Faster (in the same load conditions), can sustain combat maneuvering longer, and can carry 9,900 lb of external payload vs the 5,000 lb of the earlier models.

[Double Zero]

It would be spiffing to see an A-4 in exercise against a Hawk T1-A - what are the chances of that happening ?!

[BigBusDriver]

"The H200 is not AMRAAM capable as far as I know due to launch velocity ( often wondered if a rocket-assisted version of the missile would be worthwhile ) "


How much faster than the Hawk is the AV-8B?

Also, arent all AMRAAMs rocket assisted...?

[crackling jet]

the Hawk theory is not is not as daft as it sounds, when the T1's were first upgraded to T1A's in the eighties, it was with the aim of reinforcing the air deffence squadrons in the U.K. by providing additional assetts, the plan being that a flight of Hawks could be led by an F4 or Tornado (providing it wasn't a Blue Circle variant ) using their radar to get the Hawks into the vacinity until they were able to visually see the incoming threat, then get on with the job.

this plan was exercised and some unexpected results were gained, when the Hawks took on some far superior types and to the surprise of some of our NATO cousins actually beat them. This plan was designed to deal with mass red influx that was expected in those days, so could it not still be the case today ?. and dont forget, though the a/c may be getting on, there is still one thing in the a/c that nothing else can better , the british pilot,who can make even the dullest tool perform miracles, as has been seen on numerous occasions- real craftsmen

[Double Zero]

BigBusDriver,

ever heard of booster rockets ? The AMRAAM like most missiles only ignites for a few seconds, then 'coasts' to the target - launch velocity is therefore vital, and in answer to your other question a Harrier 2+ will be doing a good 200 knots or more above the Hawk 200 - might not sound much but try sticking your hand out !

[Double Zero]

BTW Thanks C.J; if it wasn't for the spelling I'd swear you are an old crew mate ( boats not a/c ) who now works on the Mighty Hunter - not the Hawker fighter sort...having said that I remember an interesting tale of an AIM-9L carrying Nimrod which in theory 'splashed' a couple of over-confident Tornados...

[Wader2]

Isn't the Queen Victoria registered in London?

I always believed it was the port of register that determined which ships could be called up for service rather than the ownership of the vessels?

I believe Cunard and P&O cruise ships are registered in Bardados and Celebrity curise ships in Bermuda. On that basis we could call on just about any of them.

Thing is though, the Celebrity ship I was on was largely crewed by Greeks with the Captain wearing the bars of a Rear-Admiral. I understand that P&O, as well as being British officered also sends at least one deck officer per ship to the RN Battle Damage Repair course.

I know which gang plank I would rather ascend.

[Navaleye]

Indeed, most of the P&O and Princess ships still fly the Red Ensign, but are registered in Hamilton Bermuda. So they are still on the British registry. That's a total of about 15 ships ranging between 30,000 and 115,000 tons each.

I thought the Celebrity ships were registered in the Bahamas? If it was Bermuda, they would be flying the Red Ensign which wouldn't go down well in some circles - and then of course the Captain would have to be British. :rolleyes:

[OFBSLF]

Dunno how correct or up to date this page is: http://www.cruisebruise.com/cruise_line_registry.html

[ChristiaanJ]

Cruiseliners?
You guys crazy?
You think they'll want to get off at the other end and fight?

A few container ships, with half stores and suchlike in containers, and half portacabins for accomodation.

Once they get to destination, the Argies won't know what hit them.....

[OFBSLF]

Seemed to work pretty well the last time around -- both the QE2 and Canberra were pressed into service. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/199850.stm

There were, of course, many more liners pressed into service during WW2.

[Double Zero]

Container ships -

seems a good idea to me; hang on, how about Atlantic Conveyor's brilliant contribution ( that is meant seriously ) & the later SCADS idea ?!

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Mission 1, we long haul as many assets down south by private air
Mission 2, we "borrow" a spare carrier of the septics. We've always been good at that........

You forget finding and regenerating some Sea Harriers and finding some pilots to fly them - as discussed towards the end of the Sea Jet thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=98152).

With reference to merchant vessels, they can be chartered openly on the Baltic exchange as well as formally taken up from trade. However, chartered and STUFT vessels will need naval parties for liason, force protection and so forth. Where would this manpower come from in a lean manned Navy?

Also, without the Sea Harrier, and with less escorts than intended by the SDR, vulnerability is an issue. I do not think that organic defences, decoys etc are a practicable answer for a multitude of reasons. The lesson from Atlantic Conveyor is that organic AEW is needed, and of course organic air defence.

[NURSE]

I thought it had been announced that Typhoons would be deploying south or was this just spin?