CAS finally speaks out

[Rigchick]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7128136.stm

It's about time too sir!!!

[Jackonicko]

Far too little, way too late.

The twit is still saying that the RAF is merely stretched, and is still refusing to acknowledge over-stretch NOW.

Who is still being careful not to say anything that his political masters might not like.

This is a disappointingly gutless performance, and it is hard to see this as being as anything but a collection of platitudes from someone who looks as though he has forgotten that his responsibilities should be to those he commands, as well as to those above him.

[Never Alert]

A very weak statement from a CAS who has lost the respect of much of the RAF.
:ugh:

[Chugalug2]

Jacko has it in a nutshell: too little too late indeed and from a little man, and no I am not being heightist! I say to the Chief of the Air Staff what Oliver Cromwell said to the Long Parliament, and what in turn Leo Amery told Neville Chamberlain in the Norway Debate in 1940:


You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!


The Royal Air Force is in desperate need of leadership, it must desperately find it without delay.

[Wrathmonk]

Chug

Should Sir Glenn go who do you suggest steps up to the plate?

Just curious - sometimes it is better the devil you know. Or perhaps we could advertise it and get an leading light from industry / other public sector / civil servant to take the helm. At least they would be neutral, not carrying baggage and not fast jet-ist / rotary wing-ist / single seat-ist etc.

Perhaps Sir Ian Blair could move across from the Met ....:p

[MrBernoulli]

Typical Torpy! Too little, WAY too late and long after others have made some semblance of putting their heads above the parapet. Only ever thinking about his own career.

[Winco]

A sad, gutless and weak performance from a sad, gutless and weak 'leader' of the RAF. Pathetic.

[Wader2]

Last AOC 1 Gp?

[Wrathmonk]

Wader

What the one whose idea of leadership is to suicide dive into targets once out of ammo?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

Gents

Many on this site, myself included, have been questioning why the RAF VSOs haven't been speaking up when their Army and Navy counterparts have. Now one of them has we criticise him. He is in a no win-situation. Everyone criticises him when he doesn't speak out and now everyone seems to criticise him when he does say something.

I also would have hoped he would have been a bit more forthright with his words , but at least he has said that the RAF is at its minimum possible strength. Actually we all know, and I suspect so does CAS, that it's already below its minimum strength. If it wasn't, all units would be manned to strength. Now this might (fingers-crossed) be the first step from the (RAF) VSOs to start making a few more critical noises...............






but I won't hold my breath.

[Winco]

Roland,

The thing is, this was an absolutely ideal opportunity and time for the CAS to say it 'as it is' and tell this government that enough is enough.

He didn't, he thought of his pension and he fudged it, and thats not what a leader should do frankly!

[Roland Pulfrew]

"I believe the air force is now as lean as it can possibly be and, with the addition of new capabilities such as some new helicopters, two extra C-17s [military cargo aircraft], the Reaper unmanned air vehicle, then I believe we need some more manpower."

Just what more could he/did you want him to say?

He thought of his pension?????? I think you will find that he will get that regardless, so it isn't about him protecting his pension. And, as has been mentioned on other threads, if he falls on his sword do think that this govt would give a t0ss? Do you think that it would get any more than a couple of column inches of news print before the great unwashed started worrying about some "celeb's" affair/divorce/marriage or broken metatarsal? Who would replace him at the top? ACM Graydon tried this with Portaloo in the 90s. Scored a DH but was forced to apologise or resign. He chose to apologise because he had scored the DH all the same.

[Wader2]

Wader

What the one whose idea of leadership is to suicide dive into targets once out of ammo?

Yes, I believe it is called leadership :}

Better than getting off an inter-city 125 to Glasgow. Why, you might finish up in the Pool.

[nigegilb]

Talking of inter-city 125,

I hear CAS had a lot to say to the fine members of Kinloss Sgts Mess about the degradations and sins of being overweight on a recent visit.

Looking forward to the "military man's slimming book" being the first one to be published when he leaves office.

[Postman Plod]

I can vaguely understand MoD spokespeople contradicting former VSO's who have since left, but how can they contrdict a current VSO? Surely by the fact they are current, they are effectively MoD spokespeople as well?

Now it just looks like incompetance - left hand / right hand imbalance. Shocked. :}

Civvies versus military men... hmmm... who might have a better grasp of military requirements do you think...

[500days2do]

Had lunch with Torpy on my last working day in the mob. Spent all his time telling use how good we were doing at getting new aircraft...small noisy types...at the time thought he was spineless...still do...useless waste of space i.m.h.o :mad:

5d2d

[Whenurhappy]

Roland Pulfrew - I agree with your sentiments.

I get the distinct feeling that quite a few posters on this (and other) threads have no idea how the MOD works. CAS does not have a budget; in any case, equipment programmes are outwith the RAF, as are gross manning levels. Additionally, CAS can only influence (not change) welfare issues such as, say, Family Quarters, medical care, TACOS ... and in due course, will have less direct control over the flying and ground training programmes, amongst other things.

CAS' role is to provide strategy to get from where we are to the political policy objectives set by SofS. The 'here and now' of current ops rests firmly with a grossly unresourced Air Command.

[Chugalug2]

Chug
Should Sir Glenn go who do you suggest steps up to the plate?


I've really no idea Wrathmonk, but hopefully there is someone in the wings (sorry), or is the Royal Air Force now totally devoid of leaders? It certainly should not be 'buggins' turn. If someone has to be bumped up from lower echelons, so be it. The last Chief of the Air Staff who had to save the RAF from seemingly certain extinction and ensure its independence was ex Army. Perhaps that is the way to go? They certainly seem to breed backbone rather than background where it seems our people prefer to inhabit. All the comments about what else could he do, or say, point up the defeatist low expectation attitudes that seem to have taken root in what was once a dynamic and forward looking service. If Trenchard had merely shrugged his shoulders and said, Homer wise, "Yeah? Well, what can you do?" you'd all be wearing Khaki or Dark Blue and probably talking German.

[WIWOWessex]

Tony B Liar was quoted as saying;

"the art of leadership is saying no, not yes. It is very easy to say yes"

maybe our glorious leaders in Main Building should take him up on his advice!!

[Archimedes]

He's said that more manpower is required. TCH's two [sarcasm]splendid [\sarcasm] White Papers, which are govt policy say that he doesn't. So CAS has, in fact, spoken out directly against government policy on defence, just in a sober manner.

If he were to do a spectacular, he'd have to resign. Great, you say, just what we need. Moral fibre, good for morale, etc, etc.

But the good it would do? None at all. It might do great harm.

First, look at the resingation of Sir David Luce over CVA01. Did absolutely rock-all good, and in fact created a scenario which nearly led to Varyl Begg creating a situation which would have left CVS without a SHAR wing (the admiral who did a post-CVA01 review of aviation requirements concluded some form of organic air power was needed, and was forced into retirement as a result). Had Luce stayed, this wouldn't have happened and the RN might have had SHAR earlier.

Second, how do we think the government would react? CGS got away with his 'tell it how it is' session with the press because the MoD had authorised it, so sacking him was a non-starter. However, it created considerable irritation in some political circles, as may be recalled. If CAS, or CGS, or FSL went down in a blaze of glory, the government, particularly this government I suspect, would ensure that the Chiefs would be nothing more than figureheads with minimal influence. They would also be chosen for complete political reliability - so more Scottish Air Marshals and definitely no Dannatts or Guthries.

If CAS did what many posters wanted him to do, there are grounds to believe that shouts of 'constitutional impropriety' would resound around Whitehall, and that rather than any good (bar a couple of days' coverage in the Broadsheets) coming from it, the potential for much harm would in fact arise.

As for Blair's "the art of leadership is saying no, not yes. It is very easy to say yes" one assumes he forgot about this in all dealings with Dubya over Iraq.

By the by - if we'd followed Trenchardian doctrine, we'd have lost the Battle of Britain, since we'd have had an awful lot of Fairey Battles, and Fighter Command would've been dramatically understrength - far smaller than the Army (irony of ironies...) wanted it to be...

[The Swinging Monkey]

Just got in from work and can't believe what I read!

Roland Pulfrew

What Torpy should have done was to go public, and tell this country that because of continuing cuts and lack of expenditure, he cannot provide an adequate Air Force to achieve the tasks that this government are asking of the service. He had the perfect chance to answer some of his critiques, and he chose instead to offer a weak and meaningless speech.

The public know we are whey past being streched (Look at the SH boys and the AT fleet), and everyone in the mob knows that too, it seems the only people who don't know are the airships. Torpy should have shown some balls and told the truth, instead of all this crap about simply being 'streched'

He is no more a leader of men than the Brown/Browne pair are, and they couldn't lead a dog! he should go now.

Whenurhappy
I think you are probably correct in your first para, but that doesn't mean that Torpy can't speak out against it all. He is the head of the RAF after all! But he has become, sadly, another YES man.


TSM

[Tigs2]

He just wants to retire with a Lordship. Sad really to sell 42 000 people out so that you can put Lord in front of your name.

Swinging Monkey

I am not sure the General Public really are aware that we are all way over stretched. Are they aware for example that there are 6 Flights return to the UK each week with Injured soldiers. Clearly upon reaching a certain point in the command chain the individuals concerned are given free Tamazipan for life, thats the only way I imagine that they can sleep at night.

[Chugalug2]

By the by - if we'd followed Trenchardian doctrine, we'd have lost the Battle of Britain, since we'd have had an awful lot of Fairey Battles, and Fighter Command would've been dramatically understrength - far smaller than the Army (irony of ironies...) wanted it to be...

Fair comment Archimedes, and it just shows that no one man has all the answers for all the time and, without Trenchard, Dowding would not have had the opportunity to set up a fixed Command and Control system embodied within an independent airforce, but we would have had the same Fairey Battles though under Army Command.
On a more general note, comments about how the MOD works and how the CAS has no authority or responsibility for various command functions directly bearing upon the Royal Air Force points up the dysfunctional mess that exists now. It is not only Airworthiness Regulation, as featured in the Nimrod thread, that needs massive reform but the MOD, the RAF and its sister services. If the senior officer of an armed service is not responsible in toto for that service, then no one is and anarchy results. That is what we have now, anarchy. Things need to change.

[Archimedes]

And without Trenchard, Dowding would have obtained his post-war commission a little more easily....

And just to stray OT a little further, we'd probably have had more Hurricanes than Battles, since the Army was keen on replicating what we'd done in 1917/18 with Sopwith Camels/DH5s, etc, etc {removes anorak to allow thread to get back on topic}

I would suggest that one of the things needs to change is the notion that while certain public servants can speak their minds (within reason) to the taxpayer without the expectation of instant resignation/dismissal, service chiefs can't say much at all without someone stating that they're on dangerous constitutional grounds.

Perhaps if the service cheifs were rebranded as 'Service Personnel Welfare Champions', expected to speak out for an under-represented (thanks to the foul up over voting registration...) group Gordon might take this idea on board...

[Roland Pulfrew]

TSM

Don't be so naive. If you think he should have said more, just exactly what should he have said? Remember he is a serving officer and as such is a servant of the crown and therefore the government. Read what he said.

What more could he say without then being asked to resign. Resignation is unlikely to do anything with this Govt, so just exactly what would he achieve? Apart from making you happier - or would it? As I said earlier Damned if does, damned if he doesn't.

[Fat Lad]

As a Ground Branch Officer talk of ‘RAF overstretch’ amazes me consistently. The AT and SH fleets, plus certain Loggie and Comms Trades, have been absolutely hammered in recent times, but surely the pace of life is less frenetic for our (numerous) fast jet sqns? Could it not be argued that our current force structure is not fit for purpose in 2007? Change cannot occur overnight, will require considerable investment (fantasy time!!), and it is always difficult to predict future operational requirements, but from my vantage point our focal point is badly awry!

[Chugalug2]

Whatever the pros and cons for calling for the CAS to go, am I alone in finding the stock reply to such a demand as "What good would it do" as very depressing? Time was one resigned because it was the right thing to do. Of course this government would not change tack because of one resignation, it would be arrogant of anyone to suppose that they were that important. But a track record of resignations would not be a desirable record for any government to earn and might indeed make them pause for thought at least. In any case the motivation should really be " I have failed to achieve what I should have done and it is my duty (to the country, the service, whatever) to go. Hopefully my successor will do better". Responsibility rests with the head honcho, as the Americans say, "the buck stops here". If the aircraft of the Royal Air Force are not airworthy because the regulations to ensure that have been systematically flouted for whatever reason then it is the CAS who is responsible for that. This is not a small issue, if the RAF is not about having appropriate and effective aircraft that are fit for purpose what is it about? That is why I call for his resignation. He must go as the first of many steps to right this scandal.

[Archimedes]

For what (little) it's worth, Chug, it rather depressed me when I typed "But the good it would do? None at all."

[Jackonicko]

Roland,

Mike Graydon had the guts to say more than Glen Torpy has done, at a time when speaking out made him more 'out of step' with public opinion, and with his political bosses, and thus made him more vulnerable. He wasn't sacked or forced to resign, however.

Many RN and Army senior officers have also gone further with their public statements in recent months, so I don't buy the idea that Torps said as much as he could say.

Where's the next Graydon?

Not Clive Loader, I suspect. Moran?

[dum_my]

After he had retired, Mike Graydon came to our sqn reunion dinner. In his prepared speech he said many people thought he should have resigned on principle while CAS. But he said he had an important job to do, and thus decided he had to stay and do it.

Wasn't everybody expecting Butch Burridge to be the current CAS? He was at STC, and the younger, less-experienced Torpy at PJHQ sidestepped him to be CAS-designate.

[Pontius Navigator]

There was never any question of CAS becoming a Lord. That honour was limited to CDS but probably also linked to 5* rank. No 5th star, no baronetcy?

[moosemaster]

Although I would have liked him to go further with his statement by wording it a bit more forcefully, he is very effectively controlled by Stirrup (who I watched on a Sunday morning TV interview on Nov 11th saying everything within the Armed Forces was "hunky dorey", and everyone he'd spoken to was "happy that the equipment they have is second to none". He denied we were "over-stretched", saying we were merely "challenged". Semantics)

We have to resign ourselves to the fact that none of the Senior Officers have any control over their respective services any more. All the power lies with the gov't, and primarily with our part-time Secretary of State and our self-obsessed, directionless chancellor (sorry PM).

So long as the guys (and gals) at the coal face achieve the results the politicians want, it doesn't matter a damn what anyone in uniform says.

The only way anything will change is when the objectives AREN'T met, and to that end we are own worst enemies. We put in the extra effort, we buy the decent kit ourselves, we find "work-arounds", we "make-do".

Until we no longer do so, then everything in the ivory towers is "hunky dorey".

I'm not saying everyone should work to rule or revolt. I'm merely saying that we have absorbed past cuts with a grumble and made them work. Why should these cuts be any different?

[Mightycrewseven]

Should Sir Glenn go who do you suggest steps up to the plate?
Well imho, he's got a few ranks to go yet, but Staish at Marham has mahussive respect from many many quarters. Hopefully one day he'll be at the top.....preferably not too late!

[Chugalug2]

We have to resign ourselves to the fact that none of the Senior Officers have any control over their respective services any more.

With respect Moosemaster that is the very thing that we should not 'resign' ourselves to, and those very Senior Officers who have resigned themselves to that scandalous state of affairs should resign for that very reason if no other! It may be an accurate description of the present situation but it is unacceptable and unworkable in a disciplined fighting force. Those who occupy such compromised and ineffectual positions are by definition conniving in that compromise. We see now how it has already cost too many lives in too many avoidable accidents because airworthiness, or the lack of it, was being controlled by apparatchiks doing the bidding of the Treasury and not of the Chief of the Air Staff. He must go and the MOD must change to support the Armed Forces, not destroy them.

[moosemaster]

I like the sentiment, and support it whole-heartedly, but cannot for the life of me ever see it happening.

It's great to say that this or that should be done, but actually getting someone with enough balls behind it is the hard part.

Unfortunately until the country as a whole throws off the effects of Political Correctness Gone Mad, the MoD/Govt will do nowt to rectify our current situation.

[stickmonkeytamer]

Here's a point to ponder- would you do it?

If you met Torpy, would you have the guts to tell him (probably in front of your boss, boss's boss, your boss's boss's boss, etc) what you think of his speech? A lot of us put our lives on the line daily, but we are all too scared to tell those that can make a difference exactly what we think, usually because, actually, we are acting in self preservation for our jobs.

What could be done to you?

You'd have your hat on shortly afterwards, but, don't they all like to hear our opinions???

You'd become a hero!!!

SMT

[Chugalug2]

moosemaster wrote:

It's great to say that this or that should be done, but actually getting someone with enough balls behind it is the hard part.

So who ever said it would be easy? The way things are going now, the Royal Air Force and its sister services are shrinking into oblivion. I feel like the little boy pointing out the Emperor’s lack of proper attire here. Does no one else see what I see? A once powerful and awesome force that was crucial to the saving of this country from shameful defeat and that became instrumental in the overwhelming defeat of its enemies is reduced to this dysfunctional ineptitude, unable even to keep its own aircraft airworthy! Of course the present leadership must go, and go now. To the best of its abilities the RAF must pull itself out of this morass by its own bootstraps. Agreed that the politicians have the final word, but even this government must learn that death by a thousand cuts is doing the work our enemies (and there are plenty, patiently waiting) could never hope to do. The big problem, I hope that everyone (well with obvious exceptions of course) agrees, is the Ministry of Defence. This perversion of what that title implies may not have been the worst of Mountbatten's bright ideas, but it's certainly turned out to be a dandy! It needs someone many times abler than he, so let's just say able, to reform it from top to bottom. The CoSs must be given back their powers to command, indeed that goes for all layers of command, most especially subordinate commanders. The administrative quangos and other such creatures must be scrapped, the airworthiness regulatory powers must be put into the hands of an independent MAA. Whatever size the Armed Forces end up as, they must at least be self sustaining. Of course the government determines the budget, determines the tasks, but the one must provide for the other. If as now the Military Covenant is breached repeatedly, unlike now the Chiefs must quit, that is the compact with those they lead. In short we must get back to respect, respect for our leaders and those they lead. HMG, by its actions, shows precious little sign of either right now.

[GasFitter]

Don't be so naive. If you think he should have said more, just exactly what should he have said? Remember he is a serving officer and as such is a servant of the crown and therefore the government. Read what he said.
What more could he say without then being asked to resign. Resignation is unlikely to do anything with this Govt, so just exactly what would he achieve? Apart from making you happier - or would it? As I said earlier Damned if does, damned if he doesn't.


At Last ... a sensible and rational comment.

Jackonickko

Roland,

Mike Graydon had the guts to say more than Glen Torpy has done, at a time when speaking out made him more 'out of step' with public opinion, and with his political bosses, and thus made him more vulnerable. He wasn't sacked or forced to resign, however.

Many RN and Army senior officers have also gone further with their public statements in recent months, so I don't buy the idea that Torps said as much as he could say.

Where's the next Graydon?

I presume this is the speech that he was 'forced' to retract the next day?

[Lyneham Lad]

I have been browsing the postings in this thread and mostly nodding my head in agreement to the sentiments expressed (especially Chugalug's), but come on guys, do you really expect anybody in Main Building to actually do anything on principle? There are too many self-seeking, self-serving civil & Service serpents infesting the organisation.

Like other public structures (Metropolitan Police, HM Customs & Excise etc), the structure of the MOD is suffering from an excess of PC, years of educational underachievement and (even more sad to say) a complete lack of understanding and empathy with what those on the front line need and deserve :{

LL

[GasFitter]

... nodding my head in agreement to the sentiments expressed (especially Chugalug's)

Each to their own LL, and whilst Chugalug's views maybe heartfelt and genuine, the reality of politics is that if any CAS falls on his sword, he'll be replaced with someone who will tow the line. After all, we're servants of HMG and not Trade Union Leaders, and the that's the bare-faced reality of it. Can you imagine the political capital of our detractors if the Service Chiefs went onto the TV and whinged on night after night about how bad it all is. Even the general public would get fed up with it.

And I suppose, come the crunch, we get on and do it and invariably succeed each time, which only serves to indicate to the politicians that they're are generally getting things right. Unfortunately, it might take a big operational failure to change things .... God forbid!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

The man who is responsible for a lot of this is CDL. The man who is being very quiet at the moment. Four Star rank should mean 4 Star responsibility.

[humpndump]

It's depressing to read all this knowing all the RAF brass think in the same way.

" no problems here, everything is great, isn't Typhoon wonderful?!!"

That was the drift of AVM Loader's 'talk with the boys'. He didn't mention SH until prompted during questions at the end - back pedel, back pedel... at SH stn!:eek:

[VinRouge]

Hmm,last "de-inspirational brief" held at lyneham, the one where the presenter mentioned that he flew harrier no less than 4 times, issued the word "typhoon" no less than 8 times and metioned the word "Hercules" once (possibly twice) whilst briefing us at Lyneham? The one were core squadron values were pushed, to then be told we probably wouldnt have individual squadron buildings and sqn offices under CATARA...Think you will find plenty have chose to leave the train since your brief ...

How about core values, or simply, looking after your own prior to looking out for your pension and any misgiven "status"? How about pushing an issue, instead of hiding under the carpet? General Dannatt has, and has won ground (finances) that we havent. Get your heads out of your arses and DO something! Nothing will change unless media pressure is placed on the government. Nothing less will do!

Oh, and by the way,when was the last time AT or SH had a visit from anyone significant in theatre? And I aint talking about a formal visit. Perhaps an informal, "hows it going, what assets are we not providing that we could to make your lives easier" visit perhaps... instead of pissing over 6 million up the wall at MOD on parties, and untold millions on a building upgrade to keept those workshy civil servants happy... As per usual, lip service paid, very very little done to support those giving their all. Time for an en-masse senior rank walk-out perhaps, coordinated beween all three services? Never happen. Too much of the pension pot at stake no doubt....

Perhaps this balance should be redressed and support be placed where the effect has greatest impact (effects based warfare anyone?). It isnt at the moment, and thats why people are walking from both AT and SH in droves. Fix it or you will be held in contempt not by us, but by those who write history.

[Chugalug2]

GasFitter

Each to their own LL, and whilst Chugalug's views maybe heartfelt and genuine,...
Can you imagine the political capital of our detractors if the Service Chiefs went onto the TV and whinged on night after night about how bad it all is. Even the general public would get fed up with it.....
Unfortunately, it might take a big operational failure to change things .... God forbid!
Thank you for ascribing sincerity to my posts, a rare accolade on this forum! :).
I couldn't agree more about the slightly uncomfortable feeling I get (as a member of said general public) at the sight of Generals, Air Marshals and, topically, Admirals giving us the benefit of their views on TV, not to mention subsequent amendments! That is why the time honoured practice of resignation, so long out of favour, speaks for itself. The Public will take note and it will go on the mental pro/con slate the next time they vote. That is all you can hope for, but do not under estimate its effect or the British electorate, the politicians do so at their peril.
Lastly you voice what is the great unspoken fear permeating this thread. It is not about one man or one service or one government. It is about the spectre of military disaster and losses. As you say God forbid, but it is said that He helps those who help themselves. Let us show that we are not so defeatist as not to at least try that.

[minigundiplomat]

Oh, and by the way,when was the last time AT or SH had a visit from anyone significant in theatre?



CAS visited KAF whilst I was there in the Autumn. Funny, but he never found 1310 Flt, though even if he had, we had 6 crews airborne. Nice to know SH come after the BX in the pecking order.