Reserve QFIs

[BristolScout]

I see there's a large (and very expensive) ad in the current issue of Flight, looking for ex-service pilots to sign on as flying instructors. I guess the staffing situation must be a bit critical at the FTSs. Are there any current QFIs who can comment? I might just be interested in applying, if they're not too concerned about mature years!

[Sand4Gold]

Full time Reserve Service QFIs - ad in today's Flt International


I would. :ugh:

[Stuff]

I guess the staffing situation must be a bit critical at the FTSs.

I don't follow your logic, there have been FTRS posts in the FTSs for many, many years now.

[BristolScout]

The difference, to my mind, is that advertising for the previous posts was comparatively low-key. A full-page colour ad in Flight is a very expensive exercise, suggesting a higher level of need. Perhaps I'm wrong, this wouldn't be unusual.

[Roland Pulfrew]

If the figures quoted in one of the other topics re pilot entry figures are correct then all of the FTSs will need to expand to meet the increased pilot entry. It takes time to 'grow' QFIs so you need to start training them now.

Just as well then that we haven't slashed the RAF down to 41000 and reduced the QFI establishment to minimum manning and need as many pilots on the frontline as we can get and and have gapped many of the FTS posts to allow as many pilots to stay with the frontline and taken the PMA QFI desk officer as a savings measure and...

Oh we have?!?!?!

............ And Swiss Des says we aren't broken!!!!

[LFFC]

Not sure I like the bit in the advert about loosing some of your pension! What's that all about then? Why would my pension be any of their business?

[MrBernoulli]

Oh, I might consider it when I retire from my current cushy number. Until then, no effing way!

[Roland Pulfrew]

LFFC

Why would my pension be any of their business?

Sadly this one of those huge gotchas and is, ISTR, a Treasury rule. God forbid that we might allow someone to earn their pension, leave and then come back in on similar pay + their pension.

Only applies if your pension is a military one, because of course you have to be ex-military to be FTRS. I think that you have to retire at senior Wg Cdr or Gp Capt rank not to lose any of your pension. If you retire as Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr and I think junior Wg Cdr then you will lose an element of your pension if you want to come back as FTRS.

Wrong? Absolutely. But sadly one of those stupid rules that means that FTRS QFI is no longer attractive to many = extreme shortage of FTRS QFIs even around those traditional recruiting grounds of York and Lincoln!!!

[Uncle Ginsters]

I guess the staffing situation must be a bit critical at the FTSs

Not necessarily. Linton/Valley may be a different issue, but the UAS posts referred to have been in existance for a while. With time though, those people are moving on/retiring and many posts now need filling. The problem with FTRS posts is that they are geographically tied, making some of them very difficult to fill.

Roland - couldn't agree more...we are setting ourselves up for a very big fall in the QFI cadre. But that's OK - the frontline Sqns will just change the rules so as not to need QFIs (just FIs) and crack on as usual.:ugh:

Uncle G

[SirToppamHat]

Roland Pulfrew

Wrong? Absolutely.

Has anyone challenged this in Europe?

STH

[LFFC]

Has anyone challenged this in Europe?

I suspect that nobody will be a***ed to do so. They will just work as a co-pilot for an airline instead and be better off.

Absolutely crazy!

[vecvechookattack]

Why is it wrong?

If they changed the rules so that you could leave, pick up your pension and then rejoin again on a similar wage + a pension, guess what would happen?

[LFFC]

Let me have a guess! The military would retain more QFIs?

Isn't that what they are trying to do?

[The Real Slim Shady]

In the short term it makes sense to use the retired QFIs as it frees up the serving guys to move back to operational duties. The immediate balance sheet looks terrific.

Long term, however, the dearth of serving QFIs sounds the death knell for pilot training.

But do the political masters care?

[Op_Twenty]

Uncle G is right about the front line, I wouldn't bother coming back and Linton and Valley don't have problems at the moment. Can't really see any problem just yet, it's not that QFI's are leaving, it's that the 30 - 35 yrs pilots are leaving. Front line tour, QFI tour = leave for stability in the commercial sector. I say 'stability' but if we head into recession...!!!

[LFFC]

Yes, recessions have saved the military manpower plan on more than one occasion in the past. But it's very sad that the government has to rely on failure (recession) in order to meet its military staffing objectives. :ugh:

[Uncle Ginsters]

Linton and Valley don't have problems at the moment

Don't be so sure.....it wasn't that long ago that the ad in Flight was a Linton-only calling notice. They've just expanded it this week to all FTRS.

What ad next week??
"RAF Pilot - Sign here for any job you like, they're ALL vacant!"

Uncle G:ok:

[Roland Pulfrew]

VVHA

Why is it wrong?

How about this? I join the RAF and agree to do 16 years or to the age of 38. I reach the exalted ranks of flt lt so I am on about £45K pa. At that point I can leave the RAF and will get a £10K pa pension. Note I have earned this pension and it's mine if I leave.

I can take my pension and join an airline on lets say £42K as first officer + my pension I have now had a nice pay rise and I work for the airline and get to stay in my own house near where I work.

Now maybe I am a QFI when I get to 38. I fancy living in my own house near one of the FTSs and still teach people to fly. I could apply to become an FTRS QFI, still as flt lt on £45k (if I am on full commitment) with the relevant flying pay band.

I am on a contract now (3 - 5 years) so a bit of a risk for long term employment. I should have my pension, note I earned it and would have it if I joined an airline, but because of the rules I can not earn more than I was on when in the RAF.

Incentive to stay? Nil. Result? An inability to recruit FTRS QFIs to fill the many posts that have been converted to FTRS to try and stay within the stupid 41000 manpower cap. Further result? An inability to train the pilots of the future.

Now if I retire at 55 and fancy working on for a few more years the problems get worse because the pension I have earned from 21 - 55 is that much bigger. Incentive to stay on??????

Does that answer your question?

Op Twenty

and Linton and Valley don't have problems at the moment

Not sure where you get that from. Linton were running with 15% gapped posts and Valley at about 5%. PMA view is that all must share the pain. If the frontline is gapped then training units must take their share.

[BEagle]

I simply say...

"I TOLD YOU SO!!"

[The Otter's Pocket]

I probably don't have the hours at the moment to look at a position, however I would consider moving from the Army to the RAF. I realise that I would have to go through Cranwell Etc.
Several of my friends have / are doing it, does anybody know the upper age limit to start the application, or who I could speak to at manning and recruitment.
Cheers TOP

[airborne_artist]

My father retired from the RN aged 53, and took another job for seven years, retiring from that aged 60. He got a call from the Home Office soon afterwards, asking if he'd like to apply to join the Police Complaints Authority, for three days a week. The same pension issues as described above came up, so he told them where to put it.

Just as with QFIs, HMG lost a good employee by the tried and trusted shot to the foot :ugh:

[abbotyobs]

How about when you retire you take your pension as normal.
If you became a reservist QFI full time, then they pay you at least what you were earning whilst in the service and you get your pension.
If you work for the airlines and long haul for example, then you could work 1 day a week reservist and be paid pro-rata.
If 5 guys did this then they have the equivalent of 1 FTRS pilot.
There would be a huge take-up and the FTRS manning/QFI crisis would be solved.
If anyone leaving who was a not a QFIs and wished to do it, then just prior to their exit point they could do an abbreviated QFI course, providing they agreed to be 5 years reservist on a 1 day a week contract or 2 years on a full time reservist contract.

[H Peacock]

they could do an abbreviated QFI course

Abbotyobs, I'm intrigued about these abbreviated QFI courses. I believe there are some about, but aimed at producing FI/PIs etc, not QFIs! Can't see EFT/BF(J)T working with anything other than a pukka QFI.

[Stuff]

Surely if you worked as a QFI one day a week a huge proportion of your time time would be spent maintaining currencies and very little actually spent teaching students.

[airborne_artist]

As Stuff has pointed out, five guys doing one day a week is not the same as one guy doing five days. You'll have five guys who say that week they can only do Monday, for a start. And anyway, why go for the hassle of an 80% commitment with your main employer and 20% with another in the first place?

Most airlines won't let you onto less than 100% commitment until you've served a couple of years, AFAIK.

[hugh flung_dung]

The ad is quite interesting. It says "civilians with no military background may be considered for employment in Staff Pilot appointments" - can anyone explain more about "staff pilots" and how their role would differ from that of the ex-mil QFIs?

HFD

[abbotyobs]

I know a few guys who fly for the airlines and manage flying fast-jets once a week and instructing quite happily, without any issues of currencies etc.
These guys had a lot of experience by the time they left the service, and so could provide a decent service without having to fly every day of the week.

Instructing once a week on Tutor/Firefly sounds very reasonable, providing the right guys/girls were chosen.

[vecvechookattack]

Staff pilots would be required to fly sorties which don't involve pilot training.

[Al-Berr]

I'm sure it would be OK as a one off measure but it must not become the norm. Students benefit greatly from instructor continuity and they also want to know that they are being instructed by someone who has just come off the front line. That's not to say of course that the sqn wouldn't benefit from some great experience.

[abbotyobs]

I agree with you, but how many of our EFTS/UAS instructors have just come off the frontline, unfortunately not very many nowadays and how many are Ex FJ mates.
Instructor continuity is important of course.

[ShyTorque]

I was approached in 1995 to become one of the first five HRR (High Readiness Reserve) rotary pilots.

The RAF would pay me a daily rate, I think it was less than £30, for the days I worked. They expected my present employer, in a foreign country, to allow me the time off, a minimum of 28 days and up to 36 days per year, and to hold open my job if I went to war. The only way I could achieve this was to use up all my annual leave every year.

It would cost me £1200 round trip to travel to the base in UK. The RAF would only pay my motor mileage from the arrival airport to Odiham.

Not surprisingly, I turned down the kind and thoughtful offer.

It looks like they haven't moved on very far since then.

[Wader2]

Staff pilots would be required to fly sorties which don't involve pilot training.

These 'non-op' tours were seen as a drain on the available operational aircrew pool hence the desire to civilianise the posts. Similarly Sim slots and Ops Officers all drained valuable bodies from the front-line.

Well that was the theory. Get in 'cheap' civilians and you could both reduce the number of pilots and navs etc and increase the bodies available to the front line - win-win.

What it overlooked was the R&R that these flying or flying associated tours gave to the front line aircrew. Now the increased operational tempo increases the desire for a bit of R&R which now can only come from a PVR and fly civvie.

[Wader2]

and they also want to know that they are being instructed by someone who has just come off the front line.

Which of course does not apply to creamies if they are still around, nor to permanent FT QFI types (ditto).

[Al-Berr]

Wader,

Yes, very true. Creamies work well and bring something quite unique to flying training. However, QFIs who get stuck in the job for many years, I think, need to get back to a front line and "refresh". There are several such QFIs on EFT/BJFT/CFS and the students don't seem to be able to relate to them as well as those with recent experience. How some people have only managed 1 operational tour in over 16 yers service is beyond me.

[EESDL]

The full-page ad is certainly a leap from the little 'box' classified asking anyone out there to contact S/L so-and-so at Crandlitz..........

[BEagle]

I wonder whether Binnsworth is coping with the rush of applicants......

Has anyone really applied for this?

I see there's now even an advert on PPRuNe - and that 'ex-service applicants' will have their last 3 assessments provided to the 'selection board' to 'assist the process'.....

That should really encourage applicants...:rolleyes:

[sangiovese.]

The ad says EFT and AFT? Which AFT - FJ, helos or multis?

And no I'm not interested! Just wondered!

[Wingswinger]

and that 'ex-service applicants' will have their last 3 assessments provided to the 'selection board' to 'assist the process'.....

I wonder if they've still got mine. It was 19 years ago. On second thoughts, they couldn't afford me these days :E

[Dan Winterland]

The pay is rubbish. Who would want to continue as a service pilot on the same cash with less job security and littel advancement prospects? The MoD are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think this is a serious proposition.

There is a world pilot shortage - right now. Two years ago, my company had 2000 CVs on their books. Now, we can't get people to turn up for interviews and we are losing pilots twice as fast as we're recruiting. This FTRS scheme is competing in the same market.

The money being offered wouldn't even cover my kids school fees after tax!

[BEagle]

Makes you wonder where the MFTS people think they'll recruit their instructors from.....

MoD - having cut the RAF to an unsustainable level, if you now need mercenaries to do your flight instructional work, then you'll have to pay the going rate....

[The Adjutant]

What does work is joining a civi airline and earning normal airline wage, keep the RAF pension and then join the RAuxAF as well. These guys get a daily rate for the time they put in, and if you complete your 12 days training and 15 day annual camp per year you get a nice tax free bounty (about £1500) No loss of pension with this.
RAuxAF aircrew are all over the place these days and you decide when you come in to do your bit and when you can't. If you get mobilised (bound to happen) the RAF has to pay you the same as your civi employer does, and you keep your job safe under the Reserve Forces Act.

Then if after some years in civi street, you want an easy life, take early retirement, the civi company pension and the gratuity and go FTRS. By that time the pay rates will have moved forward, and you will find that what the RAF is on today is more than what you were on in your day, even if you add the pension in to the calculation, so you won't loose your pension then either.

[Doctor Cruces]

Not surprised that MOD think this is a great idea with hndreds of people wanting to queue up to join.

The poloitcal masters never have been up close and personal with reality, they don't need to because all their "wanna promotion" underlings are telling them how wonderful their scheme is and how well everything else thay have implemented is working.

The message from the units is just not getting through, just like it didn't when I was in and probably won't ever. WHich is why we have a 41000 RAF that is even more overstretched than it ever was.

Shame on HMG

:ugh::ugh:

Doc C

[ShyTorque]

What does work is joining a civi airline and earning normal airline wage, keep the RAF pension and then join the RAuxAF as well.

Adj, all very well (if done in that order) until you try to change jobs. If there are two equal employment candidates, where one has an armed forces reserve committment, who do you think will get the job?

A few years ago I was obliged to resign from the VR(T) because my employer to be was not at all happy about even the concept of me flying the Grob on an AEF in my spare time.

[LFFC]

I see that the RAF advert for Flying Instructors is now appearing on the Pprune site. The link takes you here (https://cms.raf.mod.uk/rafinnsworth/rafcms/userpreview/7BA9023E-1143-EC82-2EB02C9649C20AB2.cfm). After trying to read that website I'm not sure my eyesight would be good enough!

I wonder what response they've had?

[tu chan go]

Anyone got any update on the state of play for this?

[gijoe]

I know a FI that is considering this very seriously having done the numbers game.

He was told by the recruiters that the total no of serious applicants as a result of this campaign was in the region of....5!

:ok:

[Roland Pulfrew]

So we cannot recruit QFIs to support the units in those traditional retirement areas for QFIs (Yorks and Lincs) and yet 'we' have just signed a contract with Ascent for MFTS.

Anyone genuinely believe they will be able to recruit instructors without paying serious money? And if they have to pay serious money, then doesn't it make it cheaper (significantly cheaper?) to employ 100% military instructors? :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

5, eh - haven't those who know anything about such things, always said as much, Roly?

First question to the MFTS lot should be "Where do you think you will get your instructional staff from?"

Second question should then be "And when the first tranche, should you ever get them, decide to retire - what then?"

With the QFI-factory of the proper UAS world having been shut down, the number of RAF QFIs is dwindling. The number of QFIs who wish to take retirement and then work at places like Oxford Aviation Academy is nowadays roughly zero - they prefer to go to the airlines themselves, it seems, rather than train youngsters to go to the airlines. The pay and conditions are somewhat better too.

I wonder whether the MFTS people have realised how expensive it would be to send a pilot (assuming he/she was good enough) to CFS.......

Even in the single piston world, military QFIs do rather more than just 'teach' barely-legal joyrides passed off as 'trial lessons'. As for sufficient BFTS and AFTS QFIs, well, what do you think?

Schadenfreude. Not very nice, but in this case I will smugly say "We told your airships so, but as usual you wouldn't listen!".

Although they will have retired with a K and a door-opening job for a military contractor by then - and some other poor sod will have to pick up the pieces.

[exscribbler]

Spot on, as ever, BEagle! The sad and maddening thing is that it's the clowns in the MoD who made this mess and sooner or later will have to pay the going rate for instructors.

That's all very well until we realise that they will not be penalised in any way for their incompetence and that the money they're having to spend is actually ours and as it can only be spent once you can forget that new kit you said you needed!

The pension problem is also alive and well elsewhere. I was asked if I'd like to help train young teachers but when I investigated further I discovered that I'd either have to do it for nothing or take a big hit on my pension. Thanks, but no thanks. And anyway I'll soon be too old.

Result of this policy? Many long-serving (40 years plus) teachers retire and take their experience and expertise with them never to return. Sounds familiar?

[flipster]

Its totally....

F.U.B.A.H.

(Fl_lCKED UP BEYOND ALL HOPE!!!!)

:{:{:{:{



I concur that this was all too predictable for someone with half an ounce of common-sense.

Someone once said


" For evil to triumph, it takes good men to stand idly by and do nothing."


While there are a few good men (and women) still out there.... I fear it is too late for the Service I once served and loved.

I hope that those who presided over this catastrophe sleep soundly at night and feel mighty proud of themselves and their lasting legacy. One wonders if they were ever fit to wear the Crown in the first place?

Per Ardua ad Ashtray

[exscribbler]

Quote: I hope that those who presided over this catastrophe sleep soundly at night and feel mighty proud of themselves and their lasting legacy. One wonders if they were ever fit to wear the Crown in the first place?

Naah. They won't even f*kin notice, still less care...

[advocatusDIABOLI]

UKMFTS is the best answer to flying training ever concieved. It's obvious really, a civilian company, who has never trained pilots, is obviously the right team to improve on the 80ish years of RAF training.

We'll get the right 'product', for the right 'price'. Streamlininging is the key, throughput and productivity.....

...... all nice, but 'Who' does the teaching on the Hawk 128, and New Basic (Whatever that looks like)..... 'self licking lolly' if you ask me.

Thought I'd finished, then thought: 'ARSE'

Advo