PDA

View Full Version : Truly Disturbing passenger behaviour.


tezzer
25th Nov 2007, 05:03
Flew into the UK last night, j class, and sat next to a middle aged couple (Brits) who had 5A&B. I was across the aisle from them and when they boarded they seemd OK, apart from the champagne wasn't cold enough etc. etc. Taxying out, they insisted on a 2nd round of champagne, which they kept hold of through take off, which actually annoyed me a bit, but thats a separate issue. Anyway, as we took off they held hands, and started to pick out items from the Duty free book as gifts for each other,and I thought, yeah, thats nice.

After a few more scoops, it was time for dinner, and he wanted champagne, white wine, and red wine. And so it continued, for about an hour or so.

Then it really started.

They had a loud argument, ending in him giving her a proper thump or two in the face. I was shocked, and livid. I got up, went forward, and mentioned to the CC that there was a "domestic in 5AB, and that they might want to keep an eye. "No problem, thank for letting us know, we'll keep a watching brief, incase it escalates" was the reply.

Well, it DID escalate, he assaulted her physically no less than 5 times, and verbally continuosly, for the rest of the flight. When she got up to go and find another seat he physically dragged her back, and replaced her luggage in the overhead bins. everytime he had a drink, it started again, often witnessed by the CC.

What action did the CC take ? None other than to continue to supply him with vast quantities of Booze, exacerbating the situation.

So, the quesstion is, what should they / could they have done to end this truly awful display of abuse ?

merlinxx
25th Nov 2007, 06:12
He should have been secured as per standard procs for all UK carriers.

Suggest you report this to the carrier direct with all flt data.

Rwy in Sight
25th Nov 2007, 07:24
tezzer hello,

Nice of you to point out to the cc about these pax. I thing they handled the issue correctly since the gentleman in question created no hazard to other pax but the lady travelling with him. I seem to recall crew stating that it is a good idea not to cut off completely the supply of Booze as not to enrage the pax. And at the end of the day what happends between a couple (sort of a murder) is not our business - in most cases.

I think you did your duty as you felt fit and you can let the case rest.

Rwy in Sight

Final 3 Greens
25th Nov 2007, 07:34
"And at the end of the day what happends between a couple (sort of a murder) is not our business - in most cases."

Unbelievable attitude.

A man assaults a woman 5 times and it is not the crew's business to interfere?
The police should have been waiting at the pier and arrested the perp on the aircraft and the guy should have been restrained.

Runway in Sight, are you saying that crew are are qualified as clinical psychologists and able to make accurate risk assessments as to whether this guy was likely to turn on someone else?

Tezzer, I agree with merlin XX and applaud you for taking positive action.

MrSoft
25th Nov 2007, 07:37
Tezzer what a dreadful experience. Very difficult situation for the CC but I would not have been happy with such a hands-off response. I don't expect CC to be vigilantes. But if they are prepared to restrain drunken/abusive passengers, then why not for a prolonged, violent domestic such as this? Never mind whether we decree domestics to be a 'private matter' (hmmm) ,to me this repellant man's behaviour was clearly upsetting for other pax and that is ground enough for more intervention.

Rwy in Sight
25th Nov 2007, 07:49
Final 3 Greens,

No, I am not say that crew are are qualified as clinical psychologists and thus they can't make accurate and watertight assesment. However I still like to point out the issue was contained within seats 5A&B. I am not supporting domestic violence but my understanding is that cc gets involved when a situation tends to get clearly out of hand by annoying (how to say it?) pax out of his travelling party. For exemple if the gent in question try to attack tezzer.

Rwy in Sight

tezzer
25th Nov 2007, 07:59
I have to add, that this morning I am still disturbed by what I experienced last night.

That poor woman. Having said that, there are two sides to every story, and from my Seat 5C, across the aisle, I acould hear what he was saying / shouting, but apart from her repeated shouts for him to leave her alone, I couldn't hear the full dialogue.

VS-LHRCSA
25th Nov 2007, 08:47
As I said in the CC forum, this is a tough one.

We are trained that statistically, your chances of being attacked when intervening in a domestic disturbance is very high. Both parties will turn on you. This is evident on the ground as it is in the air.

Separating them was a good idea. If it was my flight, I would have been pushing for restraining action at the point where he was dragging her back to her seat. Crew would have also had to prepare to restrain her, if need be.

Diversion would have been a last resort as it does inconvenience everyone and will cost money. You are also leaving the passengers in an outstation that will do nothing more than put them on the next flight once they've sobered up.

Arrest on arrival in the UK is probably the best option but as Tezzer said, they were taking pills. I can see the pax claiming stress, alcohol combined with pills, squeezing out a few tears and copping a fine.

Clearly, it is unacceptable. I know I would find it difficult NOT to get involved. I couldn't stand by and watch anyone being hit on the aircraft. However if you are a young, slim, female crew member, it would be very frightening and you have your own safety to consider. You can't always rely on other passengers to help you out, either, in situations like this.

WannaBeBiggles
25th Nov 2007, 09:57
Violent behavior is violent behavior, whether it's to wards a stranger or ones spouse and should not be tolerated!

Not being aware of company policy but is it not the CC's responsibility to notify the captain when a passenger is exhibiting potentially threatening behavior, let alone already assaulting another passenger?

SXB
25th Nov 2007, 11:15
When a woman is repeatedly assaulted on a plane it isn't just the responsibility of the cabin crew to intervene it's the responsibility of any decent minded person.

HAWK21M
25th Nov 2007, 11:58
Any assault on a co pax,irrespective of the relationship is something the Cc should be concerned about.
regds
MEL

Paradism
25th Nov 2007, 12:16
If this was a UK AOC operated aircraft, it is an offence against the ANO to be drunk on the aircraft. If the drunk had threatened or disrupted the cabin crew, that also is an offence against the ANO.

tezzer
25th Nov 2007, 12:22
Far from disturbing the crew, apart from during the altercations, he was charm itself the the CC on our side of the cabin, complementing her on her looks, her deportment, and the impeccable ervice she had given. Indeed, he took the time out to fill in a feedback form about the CC member.

I would suggest it was all part of the psychological attack on his partner, praising another woman whilst verbally abusing his partner.

Maude Charlee
25th Nov 2007, 12:37
Hear, hear SXB. :D

Society is full of gutless cowards today, who sit back and expect somebody else to deal with all the problems which they kindly drop in someone else's lap and then bravely run away to watch from a safe distance.

Makes me sick. :yuk:

Final 3 Greens
25th Nov 2007, 13:50
Maude Charlee

I agree with what you say 100%, but an aircraft is not a democracy (the company delegates authority to the captain, who delegates it to his/her crew) and surely Tezzer did the right thing in going to the chain of command, otherwise he could have become involved in the fracas and been considered a guilty party?

Had I been him, I would have been prepared to support the CC in restraining the pax, but taking the law into one's own hands is risky under UK jurisdiction.

Final 3 Greens
25th Nov 2007, 13:53
Runway in Sight

I can see where you are coming from and I don't agree with your view, but at the end of the day would agree that it is a very difficult situation to deal with and not one that I would wish on any crew.

tezzer
25th Nov 2007, 14:10
So are you suggesting that I intervene, on an aircraft and get involved in a potentially physical assault with another pasenger ?

That WOULD increase the chances of us BOTH being restrained, and being offloaded to the police in either our final destination, or worse still at a divert, with the associated risks ?

Oh, get real. It is NOT my responsibility. I acted, in a responsible and prudent manner, advising the aircraft's crew, who hold the authority to act in such cases.

I am mere SLF, and have NO interest in becoming involved, unless I am asked to support the crew, in their lawful duties. Under those circumstances, I would have been happy to stick one one this bully, and help to have him restrained.

Contacttower
25th Nov 2007, 16:19
When a woman is repeatedly assaulted on a plane it isn't just the responsibility of the cabin crew to intervene it's the responsibility of any decent minded person.


Society is full of gutless cowards today, who sit back and expect somebody else to deal with all the problems which they kindly drop in someone else's lap and then bravely run away to watch from a safe distance.


Are you two suggesting that if the CC don't intervene then the other passengers should?

That's a very honourable standpoint (although with the potential to turn out rather misguided). I think the cabin crew should have been much tougher (bearing in mind that I wasn't there and only know what tezzer has told us) in this case...not so much because the safety of other passengers was at risk but because it would make people like this think twice next time before becoming violent.

Maude Charlee
25th Nov 2007, 16:41
What action did the CC take ? None other than to continue to supply him with vast quantities of Booze, exacerbating the situation.

So, the quesstion is, what should they / could they have done to end this truly awful display of abuse ?

Tezzer,

You seem happy enough to berate the CC for not taking action in a situation which you describe as a violent and repeated physical assault, and therefore a serious criminal offence. Or is this all an exaggeration on your part?

It doesn't matter to me if the alleged assault took place at 39000ft or in the street in front of my house. I would intervene, and I would use reasonable force to restrain the offender as I am perfectly entitled to do so should that become necessary. If the crew refused to act as you claim, I would inform them of my intentions and see what transpires.

If the world was full of folk like you, the likes of Richard Reid would never have been stopped. Just what would it take for you to intervene? A murder?

Contacttower
25th Nov 2007, 16:52
If the world was full of folk like you, the likes of Richard Reid would never have been stopped. Just what would it take for you to intervene? A murder?


I think you are being a little unfair on Tezzer, Richard Reid was a threat to the whole aircraft whereas this guy was just violent towards one person and I doubt he constituted an actual threat to life. If one is travelling alone and one tries to intervene the likelihood is that it's just you vs. him...and you might end up getting injured yourself with no benefit to the original victim. The other passengers and the crew might come to you're aid...but what if they don't?

If you can convince other passengers to help you or are travelling with friends who you know you can count on...then I'd go for it!

Avman
25th Nov 2007, 16:57
tezzer did the right thing by reporting his observations to the CC. The last and worst thing to do is for anyone to get involved in a "domestic" unless the person on the receiving end clearly asks for help. More often than not a person interfering in a domestic issue is turned on by the feuding two.

groundbum
25th Nov 2007, 17:53
from my slight experience of these incidents on the ground, there are couples who enjoy a verbal back and forth, and maybe some pushee-shovee. It sounds silly, but most abused women bounce from one abuser to another and on again, they don't seem to know any better.

Doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean it's how we should all act with our partners, but I would agree with the CC that if there is no danger or massive inconvenience to the other passengers they should deal with it in a low key way. Certainly if they went gungho and diverted en-route and ran out of hours etc, then I suspect a passenger vote would overwhelming support a decision to continue on to destination!

G

PAXboy
25th Nov 2007, 18:20
I think that reporting to CC is all that can be done as they have the force of law to support them. If a solo pax does tackle a physically active person, then the chances are that they will be beaten and make things worse. As I understand it, CC are trained in restraint and two of them would work as a team.

Separation and restraint would be beneficial to ensure that the flight maintains it's schedule. Whilst the man was clearly in mental difficulty from medication/drugs and alcohol, as well as being overly polite to CC whilst beating his wife - the chances of a brawl in the cabin must have been high and that would have cost the carrier a lot more.

I have no doubt that CC are loath to wade in to these unusual situations as there is a high likelihood of them being hurt. But their employer pays them to keep order in the cabin for the safety of ALL on board. I am sorry if that is harsh and I realise that this is a situation that most CC will only witness once in their career, but it happened and did endanger many. I say DID because his actions were not stopped and could have resumed at any time.

It must have been horrible to witness and conveying full information to the carrier is important. I say that because, the carrier needs to know how many such events there are each year. Are these increasing? Are we training staff correctly? Etc.

Rwy in Sight
25th Nov 2007, 18:34
Final 3 Green,

I think we are from an environment not too disimilar geographically speaking at least. The situation was bad and obviously the lady was a human being and she has the right to be free from any harassment (verbal or physical). Furthermore a threatening (sp?) behaviour from one individual to another may constitute a hazard and is bad (for lack of a better word) for other pax as well.


In the rapidly typing statement earlier I was mainly concern about the escalation issues of depreving a drunk guy from his booze and the fact that the person trying to separate two fighting individuals may be beaten up by both. Someone said it earlier. One more thing: I was thinking along the line of but of people going from one abuser to the next hence my idea about staying out of a couple's arguments and incidents. It is obvious that it is not right to insult and attack your partner.

Rwy in Sight

tezzer
25th Nov 2007, 19:38
Oh bollox to this !

As a former Customs Officer, I did many sessions in arrest and restraint techniques. I COULD have easily disabled this guy, and had him restrained.

However, it was not my place to do so. I would have been putting myself in a difficuly position, legally, by assaulting a fellow passenger, based on what I had seen and heard, in an environment where I have no legal right to do so. I may, as did the other passengers have a moral right to step in, but if it had escalated, I would have been out on a limb.

I reported it to the CC, and they chose to ignore it. Indeed, when one of the male CC witnessed one of the physical assaults, he wandered past and asked thr man if everything was OK ! "yes, fine" was his reply. How in God's name could it have been.

I have said my last on here, I will however be taking it up with EK tommorrow. Nuff said.

transilvana
25th Nov 2007, 21:58
I donīt know UK national rules, but in Spain if that happens on board inside Spanish territory that guy is defenetely handled to spanish police, and thatīs bad for him. We no longer tolerate violence against women, and laws are really tight in those cases, in no longer than 24 hours he would be in prison for a time.

Avman
25th Nov 2007, 22:15
Come on now Tezzer,

The last line in your 1st post:

So, the quesstion is, what should they / could they have done to end this truly awful display of abuse ?

The first line in your last post:

Oh bollox to this !

If you ask a question on PPRuNe what else do you expect other than a multitude of conflicting answers and opinions? :hmm:

Islander Jock
25th Nov 2007, 23:17
Tezzer,
Mate spot on with your actions. I think to suggest that you personally should have intervened would have possibley opened up a whole can of worms. Drunken pax are more likely to respect the authority of a cabin crew member regardless of physical size or gender over a fellow pax. Citizens arrest laws are not necessarily the same in the air as they are on the ground but someone else could prove me wrong on this point. Aviation regs the world over give specific powers to aircrew but I would suggest very limited powers to pax.

Very upsetting I am sure it was but PAXboy is right when he says that the CC would need to carefully assess the situation before barging in and perhaps making things worse.

Next time, come down the back in 'Y' with the rest of us. Much better class of people down there.:cool:

tezzer
26th Nov 2007, 06:16
"Next time, come down the back in 'Y' with the rest of us. Much better class of people down there"

I think that you are actually correct. Up front, and the further forward you go the worse it seems to be, the more obnoxious selfish and demanding seem the passengers.

Excluding me, of course !

perkin
26th Nov 2007, 10:40
I'm actually surprised this behaviour didnt result in a visit and some stern words from the captain, with threat of restraint or divert & offload to local police...It seems a bit weak of the crew not to act in my opinion...The authorities would almost certainly intervene on the ground, had this happened in a restaurant or other public place, so why not in the air? :confused:

10secondsurvey
26th Nov 2007, 22:13
Am I mistaken here?? Assault is Assault. Did anybody (as there were many witnesses) call the police on landing?

Or is it OK for a guy to bash a woman, as it is on a plane at the time?

I cannot believe what I am reading.

sinala1
26th Nov 2007, 22:28
I'm actually surprised this behaviour didnt result in a visit and some stern words from the captain, with threat of restraint or divert & offload to local police...It seems a bit weak of the crew not to act in my opinion...The authorities would almost certainly intervene on the ground, had this happened in a restaurant or other public place, so why not in the air?
Perkin I would suggest its actually rare that any member of the flight crew would leave the flight deck to deal with this kind of situation, purely because with violence taking place in the cabin you don't want the flight deck door being opened - who knows what it could escalate to from there. You also don't want a member of the flight crew being injured (if it got to that level), especially on a 2 pilot crew.

As far as "the authorities" go, the Captain has legal authority in the air and passes that on to the cabin crew inflight as and when required. Cabin Crew restraining a passenger counts as arrest, and once the captain has given permission for the crew to do so then the person has been arrested as if they were on the ground.

The question of why this crew didnt intervene is an interesting one. There is a parallel thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=301849) running in the Cabin Crew forums which is good reading, with cultural/training issues being raised (this was an EK flight).

Its also important to remember that no one here, including Tezza, is actually aware of what discussion took place amongst the cabin crew regarding this incident.

BYALPHAINDIA
26th Nov 2007, 22:37
Huh, I think people just do the BARE MINIMUM these days - Unless it is of a bonus to them:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Seriously thou, i think people like the Male Pax should be 'nipped in the bud' he obviously is not bothered about what anyone else thinks??

And most of all does not think twice about giving someone GBH:=

I know what I would have done to him:ouch::ouch:

perkin
26th Nov 2007, 23:28
Yes, good point about having flight deck door open, or indeed possible injury to one of the flight crew, I hadnt considered that. Perhaps it would be more likely on a multi-crew flight where a 'spare' could be called upon if necesaary, but I guess this depends on how severe the incident appears to the CC...I also wasnt aware the captain could pass his full authority to the cabin crew.

I think any arrest carried out by a person with a warrant card would be equivalent to a citizens arrest on the ground, certainly in the uk, so not quite the same as being arrested by a police officer...I presume an airline captain has similar authority to a sea captain in this respect?

I was also going to suggest that cultural differences may have played a part in this instance...

groundbum
27th Nov 2007, 08:31
what happened was wrong, but it happens all the time and its the way some relationships operate. It's a bit like saying I like pork so everybody has to eat pork. Well no. You don't have a bit of pushee-shovee with your wife so don't reckon anybody else, but some places are more expressive.

I betcha 90% of the people on pprune are button down sulkers that when they don't get their own go quiet and grunt for 2 days like a child. Whereas I've seen "expressive" people that have a huge drama and a minor punchup and 10 minutes later are all lovey-dovey again. Horses for courses.

G

sinala1
27th Nov 2007, 09:44
the people on pprune are button down sulkers that when they don't get their own go quiet and grunt for 2 days like a child. Whereas I've seen "expressive" people that have a huge drama and a minor punchup and 10 minutes later are all lovey-dovey again. Horses for courses
So let me get this straight - you are condoning the violence that took place?

Don't forget that onboard an aircraft its an offence to commit a violent act - lovers tiff or not. Do not pass go, do not collect Ģ200, no correspondance will be entered into.

I won't even discuss your agreeance with violence as a means of conflict resolution, especially against a female :yuk:

groundbum
27th Nov 2007, 09:54
nope, don't condone it. But on the assumption that any story teller exaggerates by 50%, and any poster to a bulletin board by another 50%, then I bet the incident wasn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be. In the end all BB posters are like journalists and exaggerate otherwise it's not exciting. I note the original poster didn't say any other passengers also got up to complain or got involved. Soooo.

In the end you have to go by results, not effort. If the CC had gone straight to lockdown then (a) the plane diverts and all pax lose a day/4hours of their life (x200 pax) in a terminal not expecting them at all (b) the police do lots of paperwork and interview the crew etc (c) the next day the couple are back on the streets of nowhereville and back together! oh and (d) there might well have been a fracas in the cabin during the lockdown. She would probably have been helping him resist.

So, tezzer felt uncomfortable for a while, 200 people got where they wanted to be on time, the squabbly couple kept squabbling and will for another 20 years, I would say good result given the hand dealt! If she chooses to stay with an abusive partner then that is her call!

G

tezzer
27th Nov 2007, 10:29
Actually groundbum, your right. I didn't see any other passengers get up and take a lead, correct. What I DID see, with no embelishment whatsoever was a man and a woman having a long and extended argument, which involved him lashing out at her on at least 5 occasions.

It was discussed as we tool the long walk from gate 202 back to immigration, and reffered to as "the floor show" by the young couple sat directly behind the warring factions. They were of the opinion that SHE was giving him back as much as he was dishing out.

Now, I am a firm beleiver that there are 2 sides to every story. She was drinking heavily too. They both took pills of some description. I could here his tirade of frankly disgusting comments to her, but I couldn't hear what, if anything she was saying, apart from when she shouted at him to either leave her alone, or to stop hiiting her / spitting in her face.

Perhaps they were both in the wrong ? That still does not excuse him hitting her, if he was perchance the victim, HE should have got up and walked away and found another seat. But, it was her who tried to re-locate, and him who lost his temper again, threw his empty glasses to he floor, and dragged her bodily back to her seat.

Rwy in Sight
27th Nov 2007, 11:06
groundbum,

Thank you very much for better saying what I did try to do a couple of days ago.

Rwy in Sight

bealine
27th Nov 2007, 11:19
No one has stated, or asked what flag the aircraft was under.

In our culture, assault is assault and carries criminal charges regardless of whether or not the victim is known to the attacker or not.

In strict Muslim cultures where Sharia Law is practised, the woman is treated as inferior to the man and is expected to tolerate beating from her husband, father or brother if she does not obey their wishes!

Could this, perhaps, be the reason why the crew took no action?

sinala1
27th Nov 2007, 11:33
This was indeed an EK flight...

FHA
28th Nov 2007, 08:37
The duelling couple should be banned from flying with that carrier again. I don't suppose they were though. Would it be too difficult to arrange?
Perhaps someone can enlighten me: I just fix the things for a living, replacing stolen lifejackets, slashed seat covers, graffittied tray tables etc.

Rainboe
28th Nov 2007, 10:17
Why? Is a couple not allowed to have a 'domestic' on an aeroplane at all? This was probably a little extreme, but the crew were right to be muted in their response. Some couples habitually behave like this. Deep down, they need it emotionally. When someone interferes, they can both turn quite savagely on the peacemaker who is then totally bewildered, and then becomes 'the victim', much to their astonishment. Right to move the victim of the couple elsewhere if they want that, but that cannot always be done. But if the crew went for restraints on the aggressor, they would find the victim may become quite savage in the protective response for the aggressor. I'm afraid the crew are in a cleft stick, whatever their response, some people will find it inadequate or incorrect. They both bought FC seats, and want to behave like that in public.....let them get on with it! As long as nobody gets hurt, and the victim of the pair is not asking for assistance or help, how they behave is up to them, within the constraints of the law and travelling with other people in close confines.

airborne_artist
28th Nov 2007, 10:39
Maybe it's my background (see my PPrune moniker), but I'd have told the CC quite clearly that if they didn't intervene, I would do so with reasonable force. I have no problem with others remaining detached, but I won't see a man hit a woman. End of story. Don't mind the flag, or anything else. Since the aircraft was UK bound, it would have been of interest to the UK police.

sinala1
28th Nov 2007, 10:41
Well, it DID escalate, he assaulted her physically no less than 5 times, and verbally continuosly, for the rest of the flight. When she got up to go and find another seat he physically dragged her back, and replaced her luggage in the overhead bins. everytime he had a drink, it started again, often witnessed by the CC.
They both bought FC seats, and want to behave like that in public.....let them get on with it!As long as nobody gets hurt, and the victim of the pair is not asking for assistance or help, how they behave is up to them, within the constraints of the law and travelling with other people in close confines.
Nope, absolutely not. Purchasing a First Class seat does not give you the right to be verbally abusive towards anyone. Cabin Crew have a responsibility to ensure the cabin environment is safe for everyone onboard. In this case, he was Physically abusive - which is a criminal offence onboard an aircraft - relationship problems or not. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 units of your preferred currency, no discussion entered into.

Shack37
28th Nov 2007, 11:15
tezzer,
Agree with you 100%, no way could you take any action here unless the crew requested your assistance, otherwise, you're the bad guy.

Airborne Artist,
I share your sentiments but, unfortunately in the world we live in today, the other guy would have ended up as the victim and you the one in handcuffs.

rwy in site, groundbum,
Very macho and very selfish. Let them get on with it, she obviously enjoys it, if he didn't smack her she'd find someone else who would. Bit like the old rape excuse, she was wearing a short skirt so she was asking for it.

Rainboe,
That must be the first "tongue in cheek" post I've read from you........at least I hope it was meant to be such.

Violent behaviour towards anyone, anywhere, is unacceptable and zero tolerance is the ONLY OPTION.

The airline flag or the cultural background of the CC should not come into the equation.:=

s37

Rainboe
28th Nov 2007, 14:24
Not tongue in cheek at all. Read the words. You need to be very very careful to intervene in a domestic or you become the aggressor and you may well end up in trouble. It sounds to me like they have a regular behaviour pattern of this sort of behaviour. The ONLY people who should intervene are the Police, or if they are not available, the crew acting officially. But very often the best hope is to hope it stops by itself. It is embarrassing to witness, but I think more people behave like this than one would think. Do gooders throwing themselves in and possibly over-reacting do not help in this situation. We are asked to pass an opinion- we don't actually know the degree of violence used, so it's difficult to assess how badly intervention was needed. But the lady could have asked for help privately and appeared not to. If she didn't want assistance, then there is your answer. The Police hate domestics more than anything else I'm told. It takes more care than an enthusiastic amateur throwing himself in and getting himself into more trouble than the troublemaker!

ThreadBaron
28th Nov 2007, 16:48
Aside from the presumed assaults, were this couple not doing enough to cause concern (in at least one other passenger) and disturbing, for a considerable while, at least two other passengers. Concentrate upon the disturbance they were causing. They've paid for their seats, but so have I and I would hope to have 'quiet enjoyment' of it.

What would have been the airlines response to a couple of rich, plootered, football supporters causing a disturbance in the front (or any) cabin?

Shack37
28th Nov 2007, 17:00
Rainboe, I believe that is pretty much what I said in my post and that is as it should be but I do think the CC should have tried to have a quiet word. Not long ago there was a thread about a woman being removed from a flight for refusing to stop her young son saying "bye bye aeroplane". This guy was allowed to thump his companion and nary a word said.
There has to be some consistency surely.

s37

Juud
29th Nov 2007, 18:25
Kind of sad, when a person you have always respected for his knowledge of civil aviation, suddenly comes out with a complete load of toss.
Rainboe, people tell me you know a hell of a lot about flying, cockpit procedures and strictly pilot related matters.
But it is obvious that you know Jack Sh!t about basic cabin ops.
Astonishing really. :confused:

rigpiggy
29th Nov 2007, 22:35
was there by chance a phone in the seatback, a call to the police , or a relative to phone the police would have been in order. then you sign the complaint, and d*ckhead goes off to jail.

Rainboe
29th Nov 2007, 22:59
Well there you go! The usual Pprune: One problem, 20 answers, and 25 different opinions! It would appear the crew on the day assessed the situation and decided on much the same course of action as I appear to have! But there you go- we are only getting one bystander's opinion and impression with inadequate description of actual events. So far we have opinions ranging from 1- don't do anything, to 2- jump in like the SAS, beat the beJasus out of the perpetrator.

Me- I keep the GD flight deck door locked! I prefer it that way! It takes a bit of maturity to know when not to intervene in a domestic. It takes a bit of experience to know when one of the proposed solutions is total rubbish (the previous post). Does he really think the Police will be interested in an alleged 'crime' that takes place in the air over foreign soil? I have seen the Police reaction to an in-air call! They know the complete difficulties in pressing ahead when the witnesses subsequently decide they are 'too busy' to follow through.

So come on you experts- you know the answer so much better, and so well! I've yet to see a more sensible solution than the crew provided! And don't forget the many, many cases where a bystander has intervened in a fight, only to be turned on by both parties to the fight, not infrequently with fatal results. Without training, better to keep out if possible. I see the crew on the day agreed!

10secondsurvey
30th Nov 2007, 18:27
I just cannot believe what I'm hearing. Guy bashes woman on plane at least five times. Cabin crew do jack sh*t, AND nobody bothers calling the police upon landing.

Apparently, it's quite ok, because they are in a relationship??? I don't care what culture or country the jerk came from. The plane landed in the UK the police should have been called. You want to come to the UK- then abide by OUR rules. Period. Anything else is just a pathetic cop out. Even if the crew did not want to intervene, they SHOULD STILL HAVE GOT THE POLICE UPON LANDING.

I'm not sure if this is normal on Emirates or not. Passengers bashing each other, and ccrew do nothing.

I'm really astounded that some folks here are actually trying to say it's OK.

Rainboe
30th Nov 2007, 20:17
You need to cool off. The Police would be unwilling to involve themselves in a domestic dispute that took place out of UK territory. The answers are not as simple as people find convenient to believe. We do not know the degree of violence used. Nobody can prove how hard the blows were. You can bet your life the victim would deny it. The victim had the chance to get away or ask for sanctuary or protection. She could have asked for the Police on landing. Did she? Do you really think she would follow through a complaint? Where would that leave the airline or the Police?

Don't be so naive! There's too many thoughtless Sir Galahads running around. Funny they are absent when there is an assault in the street. We all seem to know what we would have done.......after the event.

10secondsurvey
1st Dec 2007, 08:35
It's not about macho chivalry - which I guess is what is intended by the Sir Galahad comment. It's about acceptable behaviour in a confined public space. It would be as equally unacceptable if it was two guys.

Whatever the outcome, the police SHOULD have been informed. Many,many female (and male) victims of violent partner abuse, will never report anything. This is not acceptable behavious in an aircraft. Period.

And for the record, if I see anything similar in the street I do get involved.

I still cannot believe what I'm reading on this post, that "oh it's just a domestic, he can beat the sh*t out of her...let's not get involved...it's just a domestic". The ccrew in this instance were wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong and no amount of lame excuses will help.

The police should have been informed, and THEY could judge whether to proceed. As it was, the unqualified ccrew decided to make that judgement themselves. No doubt in order to avoid adverse publicity for Emirates. Shameful.

Rainboe
1st Dec 2007, 09:50
Oh get real! It's highly unlikely the Police could proceed, so they would not be interested in attending! I can tell you, the Police would not attend. they would send a message to ask for confirmation that the lady wished to press charges before even bothering! Hell, you can't even get them to attend for a burglary these days!

Some of you don't know how the world works. Can you really see this woman proceeding with a complaint? This is the way they behave. They have an abusive relationship, that's how they behave, but it is their relationship. Did she ask anyone for help? Any interjection and she would be the first to say 'bugger off and mind your own business'. She is staying with him because she wants to. It is no business of yours to intervene unless she asked for help. If the Police met the plane, she would say she was not pressing charges, and everything would fall flat, just as the Police would know it would, so they wouldn't bother in the first place. She had several opportunities to ask for help or to ask for protection once on the ground. She was quite happy to go tripping off the plane with him. Why are you so intent on spoiling what for them is evidently a normal pattern of behaviour once they both start drinking? Sometimes, you just have to understand it is none of your business!

Too many Boy Scouts and 'Gentlemen' running round sticking their nose in where it's plainly not wanted, by any of the parties involved!

iain8867
1st Dec 2007, 10:56
I've been reading these posts and can not believe what I am reading!

Firstly any altercation in the cabin of the aircraft should have been dealt with by the crew. Whether it be an argument with raised voices or physical violence. All they had to do was point out that the behaviour was unacceptable and is not to continue.

If it does continue then you split them up, if they then turn abusive toward the crew, the police are called. If it is a private matter in a private room or taken away from the rest of the passengers and crew then it stays private. But the crew have a responsibility to the rest of the passengers as well!

The police will attend, as long as they have the man power and I have never yet heard that excuse at an airport, any aircraft that requests their presence. If the passengers have been drinking on board the aircraft and other passengers have seen them taking pills, as long as they are willing to give a statement the police will take this into consideration too.

All in all I believe the crew were wrong not to nip this in the bud by at least informing them that if their behaviour did not improve then the police would be called to meet the aircraft. That is quite often all that is required. Sometimes when this is used the other passenger will request help from the crew.

Rainboe
1st Dec 2007, 11:20
This wasn't a Luton charter flight bringing beerheads back from Alicante. Do I understand these were full fares and a First Class EK cabin? How many airlines call the Police on their full fare First Class passengers (leaving aside the famous United(?) FC defecation incident!)? Rod Stewart and his entourage in their wild days destroyed a BA FC cabin on an LAX flight. Like it or not, the rules are different there.

I'm still looking for a victim in this. Was the lady a 'victim'? Is she complaining? Maybe she has her own reasons for staying in that relationship- stretching the time out for a good settlement out of the brute maybe. But she appears to have not required any help or made any request for assistance. It's her business, not nosy bystanders itching to step in and give the bounder a bloody nose. She sets the pace, and she did not want help, and I respect the crew- they took their lead from her.

airborne_artist
1st Dec 2007, 11:33
Airborne Artist,
I share your sentiments but, unfortunately in the world we live in today, the other guy would have ended up as the victim and you the one in handcuffs.I said nothing about beating the guy up, simply applying suitable restraint to prevent anything further.

I've conducted three successful citizen's arrests - once after a raid on Harrods, another in an un-armed bank robbery, and the third after a mate and I were assaulted. So far I'm 3-0 up. I've three letters of thanks from the Met Police, and two judges' commendations.

Who's next? :ok:

barry lloyd
1st Dec 2007, 11:36
Sounds like a case for The Jeremy Kyle Show!
Many years ago, one of my family members was in the police. He said that they hated attending 'domestics' for all the reasons given previously. The usual result is that the couple concerned invariably make up very quickly afterwards, and indeed this appears to have been the case here.
Had tezzer, (and/or someone else) intervened it would almost certainly have resulted in a fracas, given the amount of alcohol and unidentified tablets they had apparently consumed. This in turn would likely have resulted in a diversion to a third country, with all the problems this brings.
EK employs multi-ethnic, multi-cultural cabin crew (perhaps to a greater extent than any other major carrier), and this may have been a factor in their decision not to intervene in this case. Oh, and before anyone kicks off, I see this as a positive in general terms, but when a difficult situation such as this occurs, it may be a disadvantage.
Many years ago, I was at the front end on a domestic flight in the US (ID upgrade), and a similar event took place. The guy sitting next to me was quite concerned, and called a member of the CC. They said they were aware of the problem, but had been instructed not to intervene, unless it endangered other passengers, which it did not.
A very unpleasant experience for tezzer. My flight was 2.5 hours - his was much longer. Oh, and on arrival in MIA, the offending couple walked (or more accurately staggered) down the steps (yes, it was that long ago), hand in hand, towards baggage reclaim.

Shack37
1st Dec 2007, 15:33
Rainboe, it does not matter if they're in FC or "beerheads" returning to Luton after a pissup in the costas.
In every post you have defended the inaction of the crew regardless and forwarded the opinion that it's OK to beat the crap out of someone you're in a "relationship" with, insinuating even that it's normal. You repeatedly blame the victim because she won't make an official complaint to the police and therefore they refuse to become involved. The reason you give for her not reporting the abuse is her looking forward to a good payout when they eventually, as they will, split up. Could it not be pure fear and the fact she has no where else to go if she does leave him? The police will attend, albeit reluctantly, if a complaint is made and the complaint does not necessarily need to come from the victim. Someone being beaten up is an offence anywhere, be it in a FC cabin, on the street or in a public bog.
There is a life outside the locked FD door and it can not always be just ignored.

regards,
s37

TightSlot
1st Dec 2007, 16:58
This thread also ran in the Cabin Crew Forum, and can be found HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=301849)

In particular, I'd draw your attention to a post by Juud HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3730018&postcount=12) that I think is relevant to the discussion here in Pax/SLF

rigpiggy
2nd Dec 2007, 03:51
In reply to this, I've launched myself off the balcony, across the street, knocked down a domestic offender, filed a police report, and testified at his trial. regrettably, all he got was a years probation. Right is Right no matter what, oh btw several weeks prior to this incident, a starbucks store manager was stabbed to death when he stepped in a domestic at the store. Maximum violence til he's down, then call the gendarmes.