Jobs in India with TR with no hrs on type!?

[flying_monkey99]

hia guys,
can any enlightened souls in here clarify, if its true that the DGCA has brought in a new rule(NOT published on their site...just doing the rounds in Delhi), which allows indian nationals with just 200 hrs (foreign CPLs) & a TR (say an A320/19/ATR/737/cant think of any) (self funded) to get jobs as FO's/SO's on shiny jets !! :eek: .... that too with "0" hrs on type. The good/bad news along with it says -- airlines can let these blokes to fly for upto 2 yrs on foreign licenses...... during this period the FO's are expected to get their foreign licenses converted to indian ones. what the :mad: ? its all about the moolah. what about poor folks who cannot afford a TR! Nevrekar & the other wise ones out here.... ur researched thoughts most appreciated.:E

[viking320]

you know you should be thankful to the India and the people in aviation and the companies in India allowing to let us blokes form the west to fly in India as an FO with the foreign Licence and giving you the expereince In the planes. THE SO CALLED WEST DONT DO THE SAME THING TO THE INDIANS I KNOW THIS TO A POSITVE FACT THAT MANY OF MY FRIENDS WHO HAVE GOOD EXPERINECE IN THE GA STILL CANT GET IN EVEN THOUGH THEY GOT GOOD EXPERIENCE UNDER THEIR BELT FLYING IN GENERAL AVIATION .AND WHEN IT COMES TO THGE SAME SITUATION I SEE A BIG DISADVANTAGE TO THE INDIANS

SO INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING AND THROWING STONES AT THE INDIAN AVIATION HAVE A GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF AND BE GRACEFUL FOR THHE OPPORTUNITY THE DGCA AND OTHER AIRLINES IN INDIA ARE GIVING YOU BECAUSE YOU KNOW AND I KNOW ONCE YOU GET THE 2 YEARS EXPERIENCE YOU ARE GOING TO F... OFF TO YOUR COUNTRY ......

OR ARE YOU GOING TO STAY AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE GROWTH OF AVIATION I DONT THINK SO..............FROM YOUR MAIL.

SO MY THOUGHTS ON THIS MATTER IS THAT
YOU COME OUT OF YOUR HIGH HORSES AND BE NICE AND GRATEFUL TO THE COUNTRY AND ITS AVIATION PEOPLE OF INDIA

REGARDS
VIKING

[Jbroey3]

A 200 hour pilot should NEVER be in the cockpit of a jet aircraft unless both the Captain and FO happen to die and this 200 hour pilot (passenger) is the aircrafts "last" resort (which would most likely end in disaster anyhow).

These 200~300 hour guys have absolutely NO business flying in an aircraft like that, and that goes for ALL countries of the world, for ALLairlines.

A captain of a Jet should not be playing baby-sitter with someone that has NO experience AT ALL. Screw the fact that the 200~300 hour guy may have a fresh CPL and a Type Rating, or gone to XYZ university, it doesn't mean sh1t.

An FO with no previous teaching/freight(135/121)/ or other aviation experience is a LIABILITY. An FO should not be some fresh CPL holder receiving dual given training from the Captain with paying customers (or boxes) in the back of the plane.

An FO should be a solid compliment to the flight deck, and an experienced aviation profession with years of flight experience and understanding of 121/135/91 (insert type of airline/corp/military) experience

EXPERIENCE is the requirement that should be attained before EVER stepping into any jet aircraft.

EXPERIENCE; It's something that can't be "Bought," but Type Ratings are there for the collecting, if you have the money and enough time on your hands etc..

I'm so sick of hearing about these people that want to become "airline pilots" without ever firstly becoming an actual aviator.

Also, the idea of "paying your dues" isn't simply about following some traditional ladder of aviation advancement, it's about becoming an experienced aviation professional. You can only get that experience THROUGH experience. GOOD judgment and decision making are a result of that experience.

So for all of you wanting to hurry up and get into that 121 cockpit with fresh ink on your CPL certifications, think twice about how much you DON'T know and how truly of a liability you are.

Think about that and about how there may be OTHERS like you sitting in the right seat of that Jet, and just imagine if the sh1t does happen to hit the fan on that flight, well, where is the 200~300 hour wonder going pull the years of experience from when it matters most? Would you actually want your family and friends on that aircraft if the Captain happens to have some sort of problem and now all the lives on-board are in the hands of that 200~300 hour wonder like yourself?
In this case the 200~300 hour pilot won't have anything to pull from other than "training" which is at no point in time the point at which you become a competent aware, safe, aviator,.. no no, that comes after years of experience.

Even myself, sitting at around 600 hours total and about 150 multi engine, I feel that I have so much more to learn and would still be somewhat of a liability to the Captain. At a bare minimum, 1000 hours with time in different types of aircraft, different locations (out side of the training environment), and actual multi-crew experience on smaller (slower) aircraft, progressing up to turbine/turbo-props then to moving up to the "big iron" etc are the ways to gain that experience.

Oh and by the way, teaching is one of the best ways to actually "learn" something, so all of you 200~300 hour guys, you should look into getting your instructor ratings and teach a few people in order to start scratching the surface of that "experience" thing that I keep mentioning.

-Joe

[flying_monkey99]

Well said Joey! .... & Viking bro, am not bashing anyone in here :ouch:... just trying to put a rumour in its place with facts from aviators on this forum.:ok:

[viking320]

I can feel your frustration and pain that you had to go through to get your 600 hrs experience I undersatnd that verywell because I have been there in your situation in early 2000 with 1200 hrs i could not break in to the market. but when i look back at that now while sitting in the A320 cockpit flying i think it was a good experience in my career.anyway the point i wanted share is this an insight in to the understanding,respecting and in someway learning from the India aviation market and the indian System

[viking320]

Indian avaitiuon after independence has enjoyed the two carriers Air India and Indian airlines. where did they get there pilots ofcourse from India .the flying clubs run by each states in india have say 20 or 30 trainess it takes years and years i have heard average five to six years to complete a 250 hours of flying and then you get a CPL and you wait for an interview with airindia or indian airlines and once you clear that ( and trust me its was very very hard ) not only you need to know the aircraft system also you need to know a lot about other non related systems .then you join as a trainee you are for that about 2 years then realeased on line after numerous checks then you work for another 5 yrars or so then by the time you have been studying for the ATPL ( not the kinda we are used to 1509 questions and answers ) seperate subjects and its tough to clear believe me i know .then after that and about 300 hrs or so you are a senoir copilot then you work for another 5 years before you get to become a commander with a lot to training and flying so typically this takes about 10 to 15 years since you have got the CPL

[viking320]

so we are looking at a pilot with 250 hrs in those days and with more that 10 years before he moves to left seat and with more than 8000 hrs or so also .this is how the aviation in India then when the open sky policy happened in early 90"s there were air asiatic, east west,damania,modiluft,sahara nepc, jet airways,alliance air,to name a few out of this only 2 or three still running.
they all needed pilots yeas the check airmen comes from overseas and co pilots from Indian aviation market (remember they have the same experience as you said 200-300 hrs ) and the process is the same as i eaxplained earlier
I have got 100 % respect to all those guys who with that experience try to learn and fly safely in Indian if you ask me i think they are good safe aviators like many others

IN YOUR REPLY I AM SEEING A GUY WHHO CANT UNDERSTAND HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS IN INDIA AND ALSO CANT APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT THESE YOUNG BOYS AND GIRLS ARE DOING A JOB WHICH IS TOUGH AND HARD
IMAGINE IF YOU GO TO INDIA AND WORK IN THE LEFT SEAT AS A CAPT (JUST HYPOTHETICALLY ) YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE YOUNG PILOTS WITH 200 + HOURS WOULD BE VERY VERY BAD IF I WAS SAY CEO OF THE COMPANY I WILL NOT EMPLOY YOU PURELY BASED ON THE CRM.


SO TO CUT IT SHORT I GIVE YOU SOME ADVISE THAT SOME THINGS WORKS GOOD IN YOUR COUNTRY MAYNOT BE THE GO IN INDIA SO WITH ALL RESPECT FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING THATS IS TRY TO GET HOURS UP AND ALSO TRY TO UNDERSTAND BIT ABOUT AVIATION IN DIFFERNT OARTS OF THE WORLD IF YOU THINK OF FLYING IN THOSE PARTS
GOOD LUCK
VIKING

[viking320]

the safety you mentioned is very good in India compared to other parts of the world you should take the hats of to guys in avition in India with limited infrastruture and the growth in aviation in the last 4 years the guys are doing a pretty good job. i have got the utmost respect for the co pilots and pilots and others ground engineers and all those guys in aviation doing it tough so here on in
PLEASE DONT SAY BAD ABOUT INDIA AND INDIAN AVIATION AND WANABBE PILOTS OK.......................................................

[air_cowboy]

A good topic for the thread ( could be some useful info) turned sour with arrogance and self indulgence.:=:zzz::=

p.s: viking.. sort out your english mate...

[viking320]

Hi mate
you are talking about the current situation I am talking about the history of aviation much before you were even born .
I can tell you with confidence and knowledge that in old times in India it used to take five to six years to complete a CPL from a flying Club for an oridinary block from a middle class family who dont have much contacts up higher.the days and nights of wait in the clubs when the Instrucor is available ,the plane is not and when the plane the engineer is not or the weather or the instructor. these were the facts in India.
now there are a few private companies trying to finish in 12 to 18 months if they can do it regularly well done its an great achievement.I hope that will happen one day
the whole point about me writing and sticking up for the INDIAN PILOTS out there who has a CPL and 200 + hours and a type rating and a huge bank loan is because of people like you who completely disregard the pain and suffering and hard work one has gone through to get the training done and still trying to find a job and when they get there
you guys decide to say the utmost disrespectful thing towards the hard work these young boys and girls have done.

YOU KNOW WHAT SHAME ON YOU GUYS WHO SAY THAT THESE BOYS AND GIRLS CANT DO THE JOB ONLY IF YOU HAVE 1000 HRS THEY ARE GOOD COME ON WHO ARE YOU GUYS TRYING TO FOOL

READ MY REPLY IN DEPTH AND THEN TRY TO ANSWER OK

VIKING

[viking320]

Hi Ace,
I Am Forced To Make An Assumption From Your Reply That You Are More Worried About Guys With 1500 Hrs Getting The Command. I Can Tell You With Some Experience In The Airline Industry That No Company In India Will Give The Command Upgrade With Just 1500 Hrs And Atpl To A 23 Year Old . do You Think All The Chief Pilots And The Dgca And Others Who Has Invested In The Multi Million Dollar Planes Are All People With Out Brains.
come On Kid ( Sorry You Have Not Shown Enough Depth In Aviation ) Have A Good Look At The Aviation In India Try To Learn Understand Respect And Move Forward You Will Go Long Way
viking

[viking320]

What Can I Say To You In The Newyear I Could Come To You And Get A Certificate Of Approval For My English Language Ability To Write Speak And Read Please Let Me Know.

are You A Pro Or Not .if So Show Some Class Ok
viking

[toolowtoofast]

so the literally 100's of pilots that have come through http://www.ctcwings.co.uk/ and sat in the rhs of an A320/737/757 with zero time in the aircraft shouldn't be there?

[Dualinput]

JOE => "EXPERIENCE is the requirement that should be attained before EVER stepping into any jet aircraft"
Do you think they can get this experience in India? There is practically no GA there! No Crop-dusting, no aerial advertising, no sightseeing tours, not many schools operational that have opportunity for instructing, no sky-diving! Think about it…..

[AI744]

Before I moved out of a prominent Indian airline I had flown with these 250 hr boys. They seem to be very quick to grasp and a lot of them have sat on some computer programs which have made them pretty aware of total insights. These guys seem to know what they are doing so I suggest we cut em some slack. Im very much part of these boys online communities and see the professionalism they maintain. Very impressive indeed.

[viking320]

Hi Ai744 And Google,

Well Said And Thankyou For Telling The Truth .everytime I Saw Such A Negative Attitude I Did Not Want To Make A Comment This Time I Had To Make A Stand Thank You For Sharing Your Experience So That People Can See This And Also Give Confidence To A Young Ones Coming Up In Aviation In India

Well Done And Very Happy To See This From A Captain Who Has Got To See The Good Side In Aviation In India And Also Understanding The 200 Hrs Pilots Who Oneday Become A Captain.if There Are More Captains Like You In India I Am Sure The Boys And Girls Will Do A Good Job
Have A Safe Flight

Viking

[fullforward]

There's no substitute for experience and maturity. Korea learned the hard way this lesson in the early 80's. The grasp, enthusiasm and dedication of the youngsters don't compose alone for a safe environment. To safely perform cockpit crew duties should never be confused with playing video games.
Unfortunately is a matter of time for headlines with burning wreckage and human remains show the hard facts.

[AI744]

Well Fullforward, I have to agree with you, you do have a point but let us also remind ourselves that most crashes that have taken place so far have also had their share of "experienced" pilots. Most of these crashes have also been attributed to pilot error.

I do understand that there is no substitute for experience but let us also understand that each person is individually attuned to what they do and some of these guys are really good whereas there are some who may turn into a zombie the minute they face something out of the SOPs

[jumpdrive]

bunch of whiners
try to enjoy life instead

BTW .......well said viking

maybe all those BIG companies that put those kinds after only doing the abinitio, and then go straight to a 747 or md11, like cathay or klm are wrong?!?!?!?!

& in india, lack of organization here, yes, many other things; yes

but way , way better than chinese or other countries out there
in the way they handle pilots, specially us being outsiders
and pocketing all this money

c ya

[av8r76]

JD:
As far as CX and KLM are concerned, these guys spend 3-4 yrs as an SO before getting onto the RHS. The transition is gradual and difficult. CX is known (and reviled) for it's constant checking and training environment. Try proposing this to the Indian outfits and the beancounters will laugh their heads off.

The blame lies on the basic training imparted at the CPL level. The guy I had with me in my sims was trained in India and couldn't shoot a manual VOR approach to save his life (literally). Maybe an exception... who knows. But the level and integrity of training needs to go up to produce candidates who are ready to make the big jump to the Boeings and AB's.... even CRJ's and ATR's for that matter. No doubt it is a steep learning curve, and that's an understatement, but the nature of the industry is such that airlines have no choice but to pick these guys up as raw pilots. As rightly pointed out, the scope of GA and corp is extremely limited and hell will freeze over before Indian citizens will be given work permits to fly in the West to gain experience.

In my experience I have found 200 hr guys who can put a seasoned veteran to shame and also come across guys who can't tune and identify a beacon if it slapped them on the face. A lot depends on individual capability and motivation to learn. Nevertheless experience is something that can only be attained by... well.... experience. Whether it takes you 6 mos or 6 yrs to get that elusive Commercial is irrelevant. Doing circuits in an uncontrolled field for 150 hrs does not teach you anything. The type of experience (not just hours) also plays a huge role. Airline flying is different from instructing is different from corporate flying is different from single pilot fighter flying. Each type requires a different skill set and different training methodologies. But everyone brings experience and knowledge into the flight deck.. after all the airline hired you 'cos there's something you can contribute. It all depends on smart application of the knowledge and skills you have gained and also observing and learning as you go along.

Another thing that concerns me is the trend of getting a self sponsored TR and approaching airlines for work. I find it very disturbing because as it is financing a basic CPL ME IR is taxing on people's pockets.. putting an additional TR burden to become competitive in the market will push aviation beyond the reach of the average joe. Let the airlines sponsor it. They already make you sign bonds amongst other means and methods. Let's try and keep it that way. A little left wing socialist preaching but that's the way I see it.:E

[jester_icarus]

here ...here....!!

[scorpilot]

after reading the entire thread and being an ex-300 hrs comm-ir-me who got hired as a f/0 on a jet a few years back...i do wanna share my personal experience too.

i got into the glass cockpit sim at cae, madrid, after a 6 yr hiatus, as there were hardly any jobs in "now booming " india between 1996 to 2002.a lot of pvt airlines like east-west, damania, modiluft shut shop leaving scores of type rated pilots jobless leave alone rookies like us.

but i never lost hope egged on by my friends who were lucky enough or were connected enough to get hired! i knew the industry had to turnaround with the booming economy and the growing middle class, kept my license and medicals current, flew the MS flight simulator on my home pc and kept in touch with my pilot friends to keep abreast of the developments. i dont want to make this into a soap opera but the 6 yrs were depressing and hard with ppl suggesting alternate careers like bpo or the army!

i finally got my chance in 2002 ,paid for my TR, worked hard in my LOFT, and was released to fly the line as f/o in 2003, i got my 1500 hrs on type by 2005 and the so called "extremely tough" indian atpl, and was sent for command training with t.t of 1815 hrs!!

trust me 1500+ hrs from the rhs flying a glass cockpit in the airline environment with a minimum exp of two monsoons is really not inadequate to upgrade and I was not the only f/o to be upgraded, there were eight of us( with similar experience), out of which 6 have left and are doing their command training on the A320 and two are check pilots.

yes there are all kinds of pilots depending on their aptitude, age and background , we all take our time to reach an acceptable level in the cockpit and yes the shortage was a big factor in my upgrade but not the only factor!

airlines are more picky and demanding when it comes to releasing captains than f/o's as the rhs has to de filled thanks to the demand but what is the alternate.....i believe some pvt airlines have started their cadet programmes and have incorporated changes in the basic cpl syllabus so that they come out more prepared to make the transition... thats a start..

also we have archaic rules on assisted t/o and ldg in india, due to which a f/o with say 1000 hrs of type exp on the 737/320 can fly the widebody without ever having made more than a few t/o's and ldgs themselves...??!

just because we made it as 300 hr rookies to the rhs of a jet doesnt justify it but thats just been the way ( thanks viking ) in india from the very beginning and I am proud of our safety record so far keeping in mind the explosive growth in aviation lately and the poor infrastructure.

hats off to all the captains teaching and bringing the new hires upto the mark, it does take a lot of patience and balls and the f/o's for adjusting to the transition so quickly...cheers to indian aviation and its future!:D

[scorpilot]

I understand where your coming from, I did my Commercial in the US and I know the path to the rhs on a jet is long and tedious.....one trains to be a CFI/CFII/MEI...get some time instructing...flies a small twin...gets an atpl...and then probably thinks about applying to the regionals..that too on a turboprop!.....but its different here in india, GA has lately started picking up , most flying schools are now in the process of rebuilding themselves but then there are no instructors, everyone wants to fly a jet for the airlines!

So the situation here is really different compared to the US, once you had your commercial, your only career option were the airlines ( GA is now an option ) or a really low paying job as an instructor, most preferred to wait than become an instructor.

I hope this makes it easier to understand and trust me we are all for safety here in India, I am myself flying with new hires, some of them are 50 plus ( renewed their expired licenses to make use this boom ) with 300 hrs!! So the training continues well after the LOFT stage and ppl learn on the line itself...thanks to the experienced captains...

[shuchim]

hi viking good to hear from u about india i an from delhi india and completed my aircraft maintenance engineering from india now want to do pilot course can u pls guide of from where i should do it (country and school )and is there any cadet pilot scheme for indian national and whet is present career of pilot in india . i would be glad to have your reply .

[shuchim]

hi sir i am from delhi and completed my aircraft maintenance engineering from delhi and want to be pilot now but lack of financial need and want to know about cadet pilot scheme in spice jet and kingfisher and any other airline if any started pls give some guideance over it and what questions they will ask in interview.

[chileno 777]

A 200 hour pilot should NEVER be in the cockpit of a jet aircraft unless both the Captain and FO happen to die and this 200 hour pilot (passenger) is the aircrafts "last" resort (which would most likely end in disaster anyhow).



Dear jbroey3
Unfortunately I do not have too much knowledge regarding Aviation in India (reason to visit this section in order to learn about it) but I do know that some well known airlines such as LAN Chile and TAP are hiring and have been hiring low time pilots (200/300 hrs) to act as 737-200, A320/319 F/Os. Those are companies that have a good abnitio training program and as far I am concerned non of them have had an accident in recent years. Following your statement means that Lan and TAP hiring policies are wrong and should have been an accident because F/O were/are low timers?

Rgds.