Obese passenger wins case

[FFG 02]

From "The Age"
Recently read a post about a LCC in Oz charging significantly for excess baggage. You think we'll go down this path?
Had a mate who was recalled to a C130 SQDN one Saturday to ferry a similar sized dude from regional NSW to YSSY as he couldn't fit in a regional airliner. Needless to say many "Fat Bastard" accents were put on for the flight!
Obese passenger wins case against Air France
A Frenchman who weighs 170 kilograms has won a court case against Air France after it made him buy a second seat on a flight from New Delhi to Paris, he told AFP.
Jean-Jacques Jauffret, a 43-year-old screen-writer, said he was deeply humiliated when airline staff measured his girth with wrapping tape in front of other passengers at New Delhi airport.
Air France was ordered to pay 8000 euro ($13,599.95) in damages and to reimburse the cost of his second seat, in a ruling delivered last Friday.
Returning to France from a holiday in India in August 2005, Jauffret was told that as the plane was full he could not be assured a free seat next to him. Instead he was told to buy the extra ticket.
"The court recognised the humiliation I suffered. Now Air France is going to have to say clearly what is its commercial policy. Does it carry people or kilos?" he said.

[THE ORACLE]

The famous actor and director Orson Welles before he died frequently flew between the U.S. and Europe on the Concorde and he had a similar weight and girth to monsieur Jauffret and he always booked and had someone else pay for two adjacent seats in order to ensure nobody (least of all himself) was uncomfortable!!

[Ultralights]

too big for an aircraft seat? get the train!

[sinala1]

Call me cold and heartless if you will - but if you need 2 seats, bloody well purchase 2! Had this exact thing happen on 2 sectors today. 1 person on each sector who clearly and obviously needed 2 seats, and were aware of their size (both requested extension seatbelts at the boarding door). Both sectors were full flights with, quite literally, one seat free on each sector. Both times I managed to move around a number of people to eventually ensure the free seat was next to the person who required it. I did this mainly for the pax around them who were squashed (in one case, the Customer of Size was in the middle seat and he was, quite literally, squashing the guy next to him into the window - the girl on the aisle seat was petite and was still getting squashed).

Do not interpret this as me being unaware of pax needs, unaware of different reasons why people are overweight, or unsympathetic to their plights - but why should someone expect 2 seats (as often happens) just because they are overweight? You get what you pay for...

This is NOT discrimination on behalf of the airlines, and (apart from measuring the guys girth at checkin - thats totally inappropriate) I have difficulty understanding why a court ruled against the airline. Heres hoping they appeal the decision!!!

I think Southwest are on the money with their policy (http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_guidelines.html):
Customers who are unable to lower the armrests (the definitive boundary between seats) and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed during initial reservations. This purchase serves as a notification of an unusual seating need and allows us to process a refund of the additional seating cost after travel (provided the flight doesn’t oversell). Most importantly, it ensures that all onboard have access to safe and comfortable seating.

For more information, please refer to our Customer of size Q & A (http://http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html)

* Rant mode off *

[Ixixly]

I'm sorry, this has got to be added into the dictionary somewhere under irony. I mean he is suing for being "Humiliated" when he was quite happy to make someone have to sit next to him the entire flight (A certainty if it was booked out) being squashed, let alone if the poor bugger wanted to "SQUEEEEEZE" past him to go the toilet or something, i'd be humiliated when i couldn't get out of my seat to go the toilet as well... let alone when the hosty brings the meals around...

And personally as if the other passengers hadn't already noticed him... i've personally had to try and load up a 140kg passenger onto a Bell407 once (I'm sure theres a few people out there with a fat guy story!!) and i'll be buggered if everyone else wasn't already asking to be on the flight that wasn't his :P

[WannaBeBiggles]

Please tell me how someone such as this person would allow the plane to be vacated in the maximum allowable time in an emergency?

Clearly if they are "pouring" over their seat they're not going to get out of the thing all too quickly...

Do people sue carnivals when they don't meet the minimum height restrictions for rides? Do they not get "measured up" infront of strangers and their peers?

I know that sounds harsh and but in case of an emergency they could quite easily endanger both themselves and other passengers...

We really do live in a society where people think the world owes them something...

It's quite black and white really... when we book a flight we book a seat, not just a right to sit somewhere in the aeroplane while it flies you from A to B, so if you require more than one seat then you buy an extra seat... It's not rocket science! :ugh:

[Tiger 77]

"The court recognised the humiliation I suffered. Now Air France is going to have to say clearly what is its commercial policy. Does it carry people or kilos?" he said.

Neither... they carry seats and you buy how ever many seats you need.

Where has common sense gone? Whats with all the sueing these days? People are just becoming weak and lazy.

Tiger.

[windytown]

I too feel South West policy makes sense.

On LCC's which do not offer children's discounts it seems ridiculous to one one hand charge a high excess baggage rate while simulataneously charging the same rate for a just 2 year old child (max free weight of child plus allowage luggage 40kg) and a 170kg man (190kg with bag).

I certainly remember one flight where a rather 'large' passenger raised the arm rest and basically pushed my small son out of his seat and was offended when the boy (too young to understand) asked me why the man was doing it.

[Roger Copy Ta]

Not really. You buy a ticket to get from A to B and they allocate you a seat to sit in.

The question is who should be disadvantaged if someone requires two seats, the airline or the fatso?

[WannaBeBiggles]

Not really. You buy a ticket to get from A to B and they allocate you a seat to sit in.


And should you require more than one seat then you should have to pay for it...

Wonder how much this overly PC :mad: is costing us taxpayers every year?

[vanderaj]

Here we go again.

Please tell me how someone such as this person would allow the plane to be vacated in the maximum allowable time in an emergency?

I hope you remember typing that into the keyboard when you're old and infirm and need someone's help to even walk. My wife needs a wheelchair about half the time we fly, and she's 32.

Go f#$@ yourself.

I've had to fly on ever increasingly small seat pitches and seat widths. Back when I was a lad, the planes on major routes were 737's and 767's where you could easily "squeeze" even in the window seat.

I now have to regularly travel on wind up rubber band "planes" like the CRJ 140. That plane is so small that you have divest Mr Laptop of its outer sheath to fit in the "overhead" baggage compartment. Forget travelling with a small overnight case - that is too big for this modern plane.

LCC are causing most of the problems - see Southwest's policy as below. That's why I refuse to travel on them. As I don't know if any capricious and offensive folks like yourself will be there.

I weigh a bit due to diabetes. My weight is all out the front. I never have a hard time fitting into the narrow 17" seats of the CRJ. But I always need a seat belt extender due to my girth. I do NOT need a seat belt extender on the A320, A330, 747's, 777, and older 767's. I need them on all CRJs, the Embrarers, 757's, and the new gen 737's. For some reason, they have shorter straps as they expect midgets to fly on them.

What about the gentlemen who work out and are really HUGE. I once had to sit next to a Muscle Mary who I am sure made his partner(s) very happy. But he was impossible to sit next to. Unlike me, there was zero give - he was all hard muscle. He was broad across the chest and shoulders, and he had huge thighs. He probably had a 32" waist and a BMI in the low teens. He spread into my seat in a way I never spread into other's seats.

Would you discriminate against him? I thought not.

I pay for premium economy and try to upgrade to first as often as I can, but with the move to LLC with one class travel, and even the old carriers moving to tiny and uncomfortable regional jets, that is becoming harder and harder to do. If I have no choice, you have no choice. Put up with it.

This decision was about the way they humiliated the passenger. I'm sure all
the posters so far in this thread would be at the top of the line saying "hey, fatso, come here, we need to measure you". That's what this is about. Treating passengers with respect rather than just self-loading freight with a "CAUTION - WIDE LOAD" sticker on our foreheads.

Andrew

[sinala1]

Andrew no one here has advocated the humiliation of a passenger, nor have they begrudged providing extension seat belts. What people here are talking about is ANY person who needs more than one seat should purchase the amount they require! If you don't need more than one seat, but need an extension - no problem whatsoever. Happy to help as much as possible.

What gets my goat is when people who clearly and obviously require 2 seats (for whatever reason - bodybuilder, overweight etc etc) only purchase 1 - then bitch, whinge and moan because they are so uncomfortable (as are the 2 people seated next to them), and Expect - even Demand to be given a spare seat just on the basis that they need more room. Southwest's policy is more than fair - you pay for the extra seat, at Childrens fare, and if the seat does not oversell then you get your money back. How could that possibly be any fairer???

I'm sure all the posters so far in this thread would be at the top of the line saying "hey, fatso, come here, we need to measure you".
Incorrect. Infact very few posts have made reference to the actual court case nor the humiliation suffered by the passenger who was "measured" at checkin. My post did - and I clearly objected to "measuring" the passenger at check in. But other posts about buying what you need are very valid, and in a world where people expect everything but wish to pay for nothing - well I hope Southwest's policy becomes an international standard. Its non-discriminatory, it has clear boundaries, and at the end of the day if the flight does not sell out then you get your money back!! It couldn't be any fairer than that :ok:

[Kiwiguy]

Sell the man a damn seat with a ticket stating it has a width of 17 inches and that is that!

If the man obstructs the evacuation, or egress of other passengers, then it is a Health and Safety issue and he may be declined his 17 inches of paradise!

Non obstruction of egress of others needs to be a condition of carriage.

As an airport caterer I entered the back galley of a 733 once at WLG. The bulk of passengers left the plane, but it took 24 minutes to get a quadraplegic from the aircraft on a 30 minute turnaround.

Tickets need to be written such that any person who obstructs or potentially the safe evacuation of others may be declined carriage.

Then you put the problem back on the obese person and then you offer a solution of another seat.

Also why not sell tickets which state that the sale of each ticket entitles the bearer to a maximum agregate weight ?

Then if some individual wants to exceed that by more than 10% irrespective of their personal weight, they are obliged to purchase a second ticket ?

[vanderaj]

I waited 35 minutes the last time I flew with my wife for the ground crew to find a wheelchair. It's really not the disabled person's fault that they can't walk, any more than it's a baby's fault for not being able to walk, or deaf people unable to hear or blind folks to see.

In the 1950's, flight was only for those with means. Today, it's our primary form of transport. If I want to go between the various destinations I regularly travel to (and I travel very frequently), I tell you know I'd take the train every time:

* No bull**** at the stations - roll up a minute before the train and you're on the train
* No security crap masquerading as anti-terrorist hooha
* Seats and legroom that take humans
* Can get up and walk about as you see fit instead of being stuck in my seat 30 or more minutes after take off just so cabin crew can take a breather. I remember the days when the seat belt sign came off within five or so minutes not even a decade ago
* Due to the security crap, even the trains here in the USA are faster than planes for journeys less than 400 kms. I will never fly to NYC because the train is faster and cheaper.

But you know what, in both Australia and the USA where I now live, train travel doesn't work as there's no new trains. I take trains to Philly and NYC regularly and i love it. I'd love to take them to Memphis. I'd love to take them to the 20 other odd destinations I go to regularly, but I can't. Air travel made expansion of train networks uneconomic.

So I have no choice. I have to travel by air. And I hate the modern air travel experience so much. I loathe going through LAX. So much so that I will be travelling back to Australia via SFO because LAX is the seventh level of hell on Earth. I believe they will be taking all 10 of my fingerprints when I return, just like a common criminal. With attitudes like that, travel is made hateful enough without the crap by ground crew and CC trying to enforce policies which I can do nothing about, and the airlines are doing their utmost to make fat people's lives as miserable as possible (overbooking, tiny planes, no first / premium economy, etc).

What possible purpose does making the PAX's life any harder serve? NONE.


Then if some individual wants to exceed that by more than 10% irrespective of their personal weight, they are obliged to purchase a second ticket


Cos on certain a/c types (the regional jets in particular), there are no second seats to be bought at any price. On my trips to Memphis, I regularly sit on the left hand side of the CRJ where there's a single seat hunkered in a cold heavily curved bulkhead. There was nowhere for my legs to go, not enough room between me and the seat in front for my 180 cm tall frame (5' 11" in the old money) to sit without splaying my legs under the seat, which is usually impossible because there's no room to stash stuff and so is usually full of other people's crap.

I've been travelling for around 35 years now at the (very nearly) pointy end and in cattle class all over the world. In days gone past, economy pax in Australia got a heated meal for breakfast which would make a today's US first class pax salivate. Today, I'm herded onto either very old equipment (such as MD-80s or DC9s), given "free" small cup of soda or water and crackers (if I'm lucky), or onto tiny planes with no real cabin service at all over a two and half hour flight. I hate it.

We, and I mean PAX in general, just want a bit of respect in a sea of crappiness that is the modern airline industry. That's all.

Until there's adequate room for all humans including folks like my 2.10 m tall boss, a premium economy or first class on EVERY flight, then there's no point in arguing this.

Andrew

[Hbr]

I'm SLF and have lurked for years and never really post, but I'm sick of fat pax whining.

You're fat. You take up too much space. Pay for the extra seat.

Don't talk to me about what is fair - I'm 176cm, 60kg, and am therefore subsidising fuel to drag your fat carcass into the air; I'm not going to subsidise your second seat as well.

Now I don't particularly like the Low Cost model*, I like my paper in the morning and my beer at night, but Southwest sound like they have it right in this instance.

What is it with this "I'm a victim" society... you're not a victim, you are lazy and have a bad diet. You probably smoke too.

(* Nothing against the staff :) )

[vanderaj]

What is it with this "I'm a victim" society... you're not a victim, you are lazy and have a bad diet. You probably smoke too.

I am not a victim. I told you - I choose to be in seats that fit when I can as it's far more comfortable for me, particularly when the rest of the air travel experience is so incredibly and deliberately hellish.

I don't often have that choice now that's there LCC everywhere, including in traditional carriers who insist on using tiny and far more uncomfortable planes. When I have no choice, neither do you. I am not buying a second seat when all I really want is a comfortable single seat. Take that choice away from me, and that's simply not my fault. I should not have to suffer a financial penalty for choices clearly outside my control.

At one stage, it is true I enjoyed a McDonald's meal or three. Once I ate McDonalds 52 meals straight. I ended up in hospital, and since then (some 18 years ago), I make it my sole purpose in life never to eat the same type of food more than once a month. Since then, I have a wildly varied and usually quite healthy diet. My downfall is two things:

a) portion sizes, which have increased everywhere, but most of all, here in the USA
b) my body is insulin resistant, probably from genetics (both my parents are large and so were theirs). This has inevitably led to a number of weight and heart related issues. These have for the last few years concentrated my mind considerably on getting down to a healthy weight.

I have to take a beta blocker to prevent high blood pressure. This pill does not work if I load my body with high fat, high salt foods. Therefore, I don't have a high fat, high salt diet any more.

I have to control my blood sugars so I don't fall into a diabetic coma. I check my blood four times a day. I am lucky - I can control my diabetes at this stage with diet and exercise alone, but to do so requires constant vigilance. I eat far less sugars and refined carbs than you do (I can guarantee this unless you're also a diabetic), I exercise at least 30 minutes every day (more on weekends). I have never smoked.

I didn't know I had diabetes until recently and I didn't manage my diet to the extent that I do now. The untreated diabetes caused my metabolic syndrome, which escalated over a long time (nearly 20 years) to the point where I am now morbidly obese despite being (at the time) on a good diet and exercise. Metabolic syndrome means that if you and I ate the same things for an entire year, you'd be a skinny whippet and I'd be fatter by the end of the year. My body is extremely efficient at converting ANY spare calories into fat. Eating even 20 kJ over my daily calorific intake requirements will cause me to put on weight. I got morbidly obese one day at a time, one diet at a time, one failed attempt at losing the weight at a time. Nothing worked despite ALWAYS trying for the last 15 years to take off weight. Now that I know I have metabolic syndrome and diabetes, I can finally get onto the right diet which avoids foods which my body readily converts into fat - even if I am eating like 1500 calories a day.

I am now slowly but surely (and safely) losing my weight. But compared to someone who has only a few kilograms to lose, it takes me about 5x - 10x the level of effort and extreme concentration on not eating ANY crap. I can't be lax about my diet because any lapse, particularly a lapse over a couple of months might kill me.

Now tell me again why I shouldn't travel? I am not a victim. I don't want your pity nor your scorn. I want a comfy seat with no seat belt extender. I am prepared to pay for it and be treated like a human. Is that too much to ask?

Andrew

[sinala1]

First you said:
I told you - I choose to be in seats that fit when I can.

Then you said
I am not buying a second seat when all I really want is a comfortable single seat.

Then barely one paragraph later you said
where I am now morbidly obese despite being on a good diet and exercise

Surely quotes #1 and #2 contradict each other? And, going by what you had to say in quote #3, you are (unfortunately) in a position that means the likelihood of any standard airline economy seat - anywhere in the world - being comfortable for you is negligible to say the very least?

If you are happy to pay for Premium Economy, (which by your own admission you Require), then why not pay a child fare for the second seat - with the possibility of getting it refunded by Southwest? Cheaper in the long run I am sure!

What about the comfort of pax around you who have paid for the use of one seat, but are potentially only getting 1/2 or 3/4 of that space because someone else is taking it up? Again, Southwest's policy is 100% on the money. And, for the record, No - I do not work for them.

This is NOT discrimination nor a lack of compassion for peoples needs and the potential medical reasons behind their weight - just a logical way of looking at it all.

[Magoodotcom]

The question is who should be disadvantaged if someone requires two seats, the airline or the fatso?
The fatso, no argument! :rolleyes:

Airlines SELL seats, they are not charities. If you take up two seats, that's one less the airline can SELL, so it's right that you should pay for two.

[Hbr]

Andrew;
I actually wasn't directing any comments at you, and I'm sorry you have health problems.

But why should I pay for people's consumer needs? I already pay taxes for health care, I shouldn't be forced to subsidise non-urgent travel.

I didn't say you shouldn't travel - travel all you want! But SOMEONE has to pay, and if its not you, its the rest of the passengers.

Next time I have excess baggage will YOU pay for it?

[AirlinePirate]

My downfall is two things:

a) portion sizes, which have increased everywhere, but most of all, here in the USA
b) my body is insulin resistant, probably from genetics (both my parents are large and so were theirs).

Arr.

Jus' because the portions are bigger does nae mean ye have to eat more.

If ye cook for yerself, ye can make the portions whatever size ye want!

If yer parents and grandparents are fat, then ye've been brought up thinkin' eatin' fattily be normal. That not be yer fault. But blamin' it on Nature when its really Nurture, that is.


I weigh a bit due to diabetes.

Perhaps ye be confused. Perhaps ye've got diabetes because ye weigh 'a bit'.

As ye've already said, ye were brought up eating fattily. That'd increase yer risk of diabetes.


If ye want, I be havin' a good recipie fer scurvy that works wonders!

If ye'r fat and need two seats, BUY two seats.


Arr.

[410]

I flew a couple of domestic sectors with Egypt Air once. They had free seating, and on the first sector, I quickly realised that my 6 foot 3 inch frame simply could not fit into their standard pitch, which was probably 28" but seemed even shorter. So on the second sector, my wife and I made an undisguised, elbows to the fore run to be first on board and get the emergency exit seats, which had marginally more legroom.

A flight attendant stood in front of the third seat beside me as the rest of the pax boarded and then gave it up to an American tourist who was, without exaggeration, at least 450 lbs. I was left sitting at an angle of 45 degrees, as much in the seat space my wife was occuppying as in my own.

I called the FA and said the pax beside me would not fit through the emergency exit, so if we had a problem, no one would get out through that exit except my wife and I, who were the only ones closer to the exit than the American. Her answer was logical in the extreme. "He will not fit in any other seat." End of argument.

I spent a very uncomfortable 40 minutes watching my travelling companion eat non stop the whole time, taking four of everything on offer from the FA as well as dipping repeatedly into his rucksack betwen complaining about how hot the aircraft was.

Courts need to face the fact that modern airliners are made to fit ONLY the 95 percentile human being, and if someone from the other 5 percentile is unable to fit into the space they have purchased without intruding into the space some other hapless traveller has purchased, they need to face facts and pay for the space they NEED. Some might say I should pay extra myself, as I fit into that "other" 5 percentile myself, but not to the point where I intrude into the space of other passengers, except for my knees sticking into their backs when I am unable to have them out in the aisle.

End of rant.

[PilotHTR]

Andrew,
YOU are responsible for your condition. All your 'problems' are secondary effects of obesity.
And, like most other obese people, you always have an excuse.
Do not expect others to subsidise you and your habits.
And eat less
And exercise more ...oh, sorry, of course you can't because you're too fat...
And stop whining

BTW, Medically speaking, 'metabolic syndrome' is just another bull**** excuse. The 'doctors' (note non-capitalisation) who peddle it are fringe entrepreneurs who are the scorn of the profession. And I know because I am proper Doctor who spends his energies treating people with problems they have not brought upon themselves - it drives me to distraction just how much of the health dollar is spent on obesity, smoking, and other 100% preventable issues, if not for peoples' self-indulgence.

So enough of the 'poor fat me' crap.....ever see anyone obese in photos from the WW2 camps? - no, thought not. See, they had very little food and were made to work very hard. (Apologies to anyone offended by the reference - not intended, but it is a very good example).

[Roger Standby]

I'm a very big bloke and would be happy to comply with the Southwest offer. Not quite requiring a second seat at the moment (but belt at full stretch and a bit tight widthways), particularly travelling with the wife and kids. If I had to fly solo, I wouldn't like to be the person sitting next to me. It's also true that widebodies (no pun intended) seem to have wider seats. After putting off flying with Jet* for ages for fear of being crammed in, I was pleasantly surprised, better fit than QF or VB's 73's - seemed that way anyway.

Hbr, you might be a little bloke, but that certainly hasn't stopped you from being a rude, assuming pr1ck. Lucky you're so perfect. Bet you're a Liberal supporter too, huh?:}

[Ixixly]

I think we all sympathise those with a GENUINE problem that has been brought upon them without them doing anything to deserve it nor to encourage it and have no recourse/medication/solution available to them inregards to their issue. But at the same time there are a lot of people who have brought these issues upon themselves and then complain when they aren't taken care of.

In cases like VanderAJ i'm sure that when you call to make your booking you make them aware of your wifes need of a wheelchair and as such they can go about doing what needs to be done to accomodate you. The problem is when people just turn up and EXPECT there not to be a problem. They have not considered there to be an issue whatsoever, whether because they simply could not have considered it, don't care, or couldn't be bothered to think of such things, in any case its extra effort for the airlines and extra costs that have to passed onto other passengers. For those who are carrying a little extra weight perhaps informing the person you make the booking with or contacting the airline could simply and effectively curtail anything like this happening in the first place!!

In the end though a lot of these problems come from paxs who think the world revolves around them, personally i've worked as a helo loader and in the restaurant industry (Now training to be a pilot) so i've had to deal with this a lot, obvious issues that we should have been informed of but weren't, someone turning up with a wheelchair for a restaurant booking thinking that it would cause no issue whatsoever... we have to consider how to get them in, where to seat them so as not to cause disruption etc... when they come in as such and EXPECT us to ready for it, it really annoys me. Same with larger passengers on helos, they turn up and for some reason think that their 170kg is going to be of no concern for a helo and then get annoyed when we have to wait for a relatively free helo to take them where they are going, thats not our fault!! If informed before hand in these sorts of cases a lot of annoyances for us and the customer can be avoided altogether.

Think about that next time your a pax booking for a flight or going out somewhere, think before you ring up if there are going to be any extenuating circumstances AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD TELL THEM!! 9/10 times they are more than happy to try and accomodate you because your a paying customer, but just rock up and expect everything to be perfectly fine when you haven't informed them of some sort of issue and you'd also better expect there to be a lot of hassle involved.

[vanderaj]

When I travel with my wife, we book her into a disabled seat and make a note when we check her in that she may need assistance. At the airport, we ask for a wheelchair only if she needs it. That one time we waited was an airport logistics problem at the destination - a breakdown of communications somewhere or simply many folks needed a push. Generally, we have no problems travelling with my wife. It was a bit annoying but nothing compared to the rude folks in this thread.

In the end, SLF like me pay for you folks. I am the J class, last minute booker and extreme frequent flyer which underpins this industry. I've never - and I mean NEVER - had so much abuse from folks who fail so completely to understand from which side of the bread is buttered.

Like it or not, you folks are in a service industry. Service industries live or die on the levels of service offered, and that means folks like me feeling welcome and the experience completely unlike that of visiting, say a dentist. My travel so far this year has totalled well over $150k. None of it went to Southwest, even though they are based at BWI (my home airport) and thus would make many of trips shorter and probably a great deal cheaper. Think about that. I am just one PAX. Imagine if your airline became so customer hostile that no one chose to fly with you. That's Southwest for me. Your livelihood really is in our hands.

With 30% of the population being obese today, with the average male height increasing from around 165 cm to nearer 180 cm, you'd think that seats and interior dimensions would have increased over the years to cope with the general population. Instead, seat pitches have narrowed to stack max capacity, 17" widths have stayed the same since the 1950's - see Fokker F-27's for the same 17" width seats you get on any LCC today.

As to one of the posters above who claims to be a doctor, I sort of hope you don't have any patients as your bedside manner truly sucks. Furthermore, you seem to be unaware of the peer reviewed papers describing metabolic syndrome. Metabolic syndrome is an indicator that if you meet the criteria for it, you probably have these other things, too. That diagnosis pointed the way to be checked for diabetes, which found my insulin resistance. I didn't know about that until recently, but knowing about it has allowed me to lose 5.6 kg since starting on a controlled GI diet in just around a month. No other diet - and I've been on many, including Weight Watchers - has helped me lose so much in such a short time. So I pretty much really don't care if you think it's fake or made up syndrome like RLS, as the diagnosis explains why I never lost weight on low fat diets before, why I gain weight more easily than family members eating the exact same food as me, and also helped pin point a potentially deadly issue - diabetes that I didn't know I had. Please don't diagnose folks you have never seen and do not know their medical history. Do not disparage folks like me who are taking their health very seriously, who have been trying without success for nearly 20 years to get my weight under control. I think I have a chance now, and I must give it my best shot.

This thread is a dead end. You're all obviously skinny and perfection in the flesh. One day, you'll be fat. Seriously. If you don't exercise and eat a normal western diet, you'll get fat sooner or later, whether that's an additional few kg or as many as I'm hauling around. I don't see that many rake thin pilots, so I know that you eat as well as I do in hotel rooms around the country. See how you like it when you get plump and people scowl at you for eating a healthy meal in public. See how you like when folks look horrified when you get to your assigned seat. See how you like it when a 50 kg CC bulimic waif tries to measure you in front of all the other PAX as happened to the gentleman on Air France. I'm glad he won, as it means that you can't just humiliate passengers in the same old ways any more. I wait with baited breath to see how the airline industry responds to this, as they wont let this stop them in their quest to make air travel as offensive and hostile as possible.

Have some humility and empathy, and simple human kindness. See it from our eyes - eyes that pay your wages and keep the planes in the air. If you can't, may I suggest call centers. I believe they are looking for the sort of callous disregard of human life that is so obviously on display here.

Andrew

[A2QFI]

Vanderaj, you have to organise your life round your physical and medical limitations, I suggest. If you can't fit into the one seat the airline YOU choose to fly with provides then buy another. Do you buy your shoes and clothes too small just because they are cheaper in a smaller size? Probably not! You have certain physical attributes which may be genetic, medical or diet related. It is unfortunate for you but why should your fellow passengers have to suffer because of your physique?

[windytown]

What do you think of this idea for addressing seat width issues.

I suspect part of the problem with people being reluctant to pay for two seats is the cost. Particularly since if they could pay it the would often choose business class. In addition many people who would benefit from extra space really only need half a seat, hence two people could share three seats. LCCs typically use A320/737 which have seats in blocks of three.

LCC are increasingly charging for seat select and extra leg room, while at the same time most flights still have some empty seats (which people like to be next to) or fill the hard to sell seats at bargain prices.

Why not extend the seat select concept to selling off the right/chance to have a spare set next to you. That way airlines can get some revenue from empty seats. If two people split the fee then the result could be similar to having sold the seat, especially if you factor in reduced baggage handling etc

The seat select options on short haul would become

1) seat select for a specific seat (say $5)
2) premium for extra legroom (e.g. exit isle for $25)
3) guaranteed empty middle seat (25%-40% of ticket price depending on load factors ie sell it at the cheapest % on offpeak flights)
4) preference for empty middle seat if there are empty eats on plane ($25- but only billed if an empty seat is available)

[Ramboflyer 1]

Are you sure about the half seat...........
http://www.dba-oracle.com/images/fat_flyer.jpg

[vanderaj]

1) seat select for a specific seat (say $5)
2) premium for extra legroom (e.g. exit isle for $25)
3) guaranteed empty middle seat (25%-40% of ticket price depending on load factors ie sell it at the cheapest % on offpeak flights)
4) preference for empty middle seat if there are empty eats on plane ($25- but only billed if an empty seat is available)

I buy premium economy (which I fit just fine in, btw) or J class as often as I can. I upgrade as often as I can, which considering the carriers I choose, should be more often than I am able to at the moment. I'm happy with that choice. I don't need any other choices.

If a LCC, such as Southwest, wishes me to travel on their pretty new planes, they have to do more than allow me to have a spare seat next to me. I like premium economy for the extra pitch and width and lack of seatbelt extension. I like the fact I can get the tray table down and get some work done or eat without holding food in my hands.

If you're a LCC who is known to embarrass and humiliate on whether or not the ground staff or CC got out of bed the wrong way today (Southwest is not consistent at applying their policy - I flew with them to Vegas in 2006 and was not hassled, but fretted the entire time until the door closed and we rotated), then I will simply take my business elsewhere, some airline that I know has a suitable seat, a seat that makes me comfortable. Flying is a major part of my life, and I try as hard as I can to avoid discomfort for me as much as I can.

Simple no?

If there's no option, say for example, all carriers go single class, then we're stuffed. If I have no choice, you have no choice. I shouldn't be penalized for the cabin arrangements dictated by money hungry carriers. This also goes for old school carriers who put on toy planes like the CRJs and Embraers (no offense to drivers of these fine a/c, but you have to admit they're small) on significant routes to some of the busiest airports in the world.

At my current rate, I will be around BMI 25 in early to mid 2009, but I will still remember Southwest's discriminatory policy for my entire life, and never travel on them. I've influenced many in my company not to take them, and I know that due to me, I've probably pulled the better part of a million dollars of airfares this year alone they could have had if they'd had J class or a premium economy and most of all - no discriminatory policy. It's too late for Southwest.

Andrew

[sinala1]

Vanderaj,
The policy is NOT discriminatory! It couldn't be any fairer if they tried... you pay for a childs seat, if the flight does not sell out then presto changeo you get the child fare refunded.

Your agenda sounds less about handing over $$ moreso than a crusade against LCC's in general - and demanding (from LCC's) more than what you pay for - just on the basis of your size. The policy of "pay for what you need" with a side note of "you may even end up NOT having to pay for what you DO need" is about as fair on you, and your fellow travellers, as one could possibly ask for. :rolleyes:

If you are willing to pay for Premium Economy, then why not pay for the childs fare on Southwest? Reading between the lines, there is more to this story.

[vanderaj]

You're not getting it. Southwest don't apply this policy consistently. I could fly 100 times with them and only get dinged once or twice. My flab is over my belly. The problem is not encroachment, it's getting the tray table down.

LCC could make this easier if they offered options such as premium economy or J class.

I don't know what part of the world you're in, but around here, flights are always overbooked. So even if they wanted me to pay, some poor bugger is going to get squished next to me.

If I do get that spare seat, the method by which a thin passenger gets it for free, or a fat passenger has to pay becomes the issue. The stories I've read is that you're either pulled aside at the gate and measured, or once you've boarded, if there's a complaint and someone is forced to sit next to you, they get you to pay.

My airfares are paid for by the travel girl who has a different bucket of cash than me. The fatty payment - if you get dinged for it - is due at time of boarding, and you don't get it back immediately when the seat is taken by some poor sod. Tough luck if you don't have the funds to pay for the child's seat (which is charged full fare that day, not the lovely discount fare you managed some 21 days prior). So basically, I would have to pay up to $500 out of my own funds... but only sometimes. This uncertainty is the killer, and the fact that there is nowhere private to have the "you're a fatty" discussion, and the usual test is to go plane and see if you fit, right in front of all the other PAX.

It's the method of implementation, and the choices foisted upon you. I have the choice not to use Southwest or any carrier which will try to shame me for an extra buck.

I choose carriers which can make me comfortable by having the leg room for my normal height body, width for my additional girth, a tray table which fits an adult and a Macbook Pro, and friendly staff who will never dream of humiliating me because they have no policy allowing that to occur.

I choose that path. Why can you folks not see that? LCC's path is wrong. There is no other disease or predicament that would allow such discrimination in modern life as being fat. It has been stopped, and I bet all the airlines are looking at the ruling carefully as that is a great precedent. That gentleman is no Mrs Parks, but it's a wonderful step at reclaiming the airline industry from unnecessary bigotry and humiliation.

thanks,
Andrew

[sinala1]

From Southwest's Customers of Size Policy (http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_guidelines.html):
Customers who are unable to lower the armrests (the definitive boundary between seats) and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed during initial reservations. This purchase serves as a notification of an unusual seating need and allows us to process a refund of the additional seating cost after travel (provided the flight doesn’t oversell). Most importantly, it ensures that all onboard have access to safe and comfortable seating


So even if they wanted me to pay, some poor bugger is going to get squished next to me.

Incorrect - you are paying to gaurantee the extra seat next to you is empty - you have booked 2 seats. However if the flight departs with empty seats, then you get your 2nd fare back - and if you happened to book a fully flexible ticket, the 2nd fare can be booked at a childs fare.

If I do get that spare seat, the method by which a thin passenger gets it for free, or a fat passenger has to pay becomes the issue
The difference being that a Customer of Size requires it - the "thin" person does not. If the "thin" person does not get it, they are not going to encroach on the space of the person who happens to sit next to them. A "customer of size" will.


My airfares are paid for by the travel girl who has a different bucket of cash than me. The fatty payment - if you get dinged for it - is due at time of boarding, and you don't get it back immediately when the seat is taken by some poor sod.
Incorrect - see bolded parts of the above policy. Additional seat should be booked at the same time as the initial booking, giving access to the same fare .


It's the method of implementation, and the choices foisted upon you. I have the choice not to use Southwest or any carrier which will try to shame me for an extra buck.
Who is shaming anyone? Its about ensuring the comfort of not only you but the people around you as well.



I choose that path. Why can you folks not see that? LCC's path is
wrong. There is no other disease or predicament that would allow such discrimination in modern life as being fat.
IT IS NOT DISCRIMINATION. I don't mean to be rude here, but you are not a victim! You wanna hear about discrimination? I can tell you all about it - from experience - but I choose not to do so in a public forum.



That gentleman is no Mrs Parks, but it's a wonderful step at reclaiming the airline industry from unnecessary bigotry and humiliation.

Incorrect again. The only thing that happened in this case that shouldn't have taken place is the measuring of the passenger at checkin - that is 100% unacceptable.

Its a s-i-m-p-l-e concept - you pay for what you need. Do you see me going to a hotel, booking a single room, then expecting a King size bed just because I am tall and it makes me more comfortable when I am sleeping? No... I book what I know I NEED. And again, I will reiterate - this is NOT about being unsympathetic to customer needs nor displaying a lack of compassion and customer service. Its about people expecting more than they pay for and then bleating on about being discriminated against if they don't get it.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

I would be just happy if ALL cattle class seats were locked in the upright position.

[777Contrail]

I think all oversized people should withhold their buying power from the airlines until they (the airlines) change their ways.

No more "big" people on flights.

End of problem.

[WannaBeBiggles]

I have to agree that people that have the "something for nothing" attitude really annoys me!

If you take up more room than is given to you then you pay for the extra room.

Otherwise if you want to apply the same logic then I want a prorata refund on every kilo I am under the standard weight!

vanderaj, you do not know under what circumstances the man who sued Air France was measured. I doubt the checkin staff are there ready with a measuring tape as soon as they see a person of size coming, the guy could have been quite hostile and refused to purchase another seat and they might have done it to prove that he could not fit.

I used to be well in to 3 figures (kg), but dropped 36kg's of weight through fitness and good diet, so it's not like I do not know how people can look at you when your larger than normal.

One of my best friends, wifes' sister is married to a "strong man" (yes those guys that run with car bodies and carry boulders as a sport) and even he will book two seats because his shoulders are so broad, his waist more than fits in to the seats.

You also think that you the only person that travels for work :rolleyes: Last year I clocked an average of 8 flights a week.
So you can p!ss and moan about how much you spend and how your keeping all these poor people in airlines from the bread lines, but how I see it, airlines are keeping YOU in a job! :mad:

[amos2]

Vanderaj...you're a big fat slob, mate! You know it, we know it and you're boring the tits off us!!

And you're also having a lend of us!

You're a 55 year old fat slob with a 32 year old wife in a wheelchair who spends $150k a year on air travel and you never advise the airline about these "small" matters when you make a booking!

Give us a break!

You might be stupid, but we're not! :*:*:*

[amos2]

PS: I notice you're from Oz (what a pity)

So, as Bazza Mackenzie said, and I quote:" go stick your head up a dead

bear's bum!"

[tea & bikkies]

Everybody recognises there is a problem here.

Airlines could put on a special daily flight for people who are obese or even have a "fat section" allocation of seats those that choose to buy only one ticket. They can all sit next to one another and enjoy the ambience.

Problem solved.

Maybe the A380:sad:

[groundbum]

I wonder if these large people who get upset about being asked to pay for a second seat, also get wound up when stuck behind an elderly motorist doing 40 on a quiet A road? The Americans have a saying "value my differences" and what is really means is you all have to respect my weirdness, and in reality nobody respects anybody elses, it's all one way!

G

[TightSlot]

go stick your head up a dead bear's bum!"

If this level of contribution drops any further, it'll become chimps throwing faeces at each other.

You can do better - please try...

[rigpiggy]

From the Great White North's airline
Extra seat for comfort If an extra seat is required for comfort, please contact Air Canada Reservations. A single reservation & ticket are required in the name of the person travelling. Duplicate bookings under the same name are not permitted. Identical bookings made under different names or pseudonyms are not permitted. Charges for the extra seat vary by destination & by applicable fare at time of booking.

BTW the seats don't really fit me either, and i'm only 90kg

[Capot]

Whenever this subject appears on pprune, as it regularly does, sooner or later someone wearily points out that body fat results from what you stuff down your throat. THERE IS NO OTHER SOURCE.

Ipso facto, it's a lifestyle choice.

And that means that if you're too fat to fit in the seat you paid for, you have to buy another one. You have a range of options

* Don't fly

* Lose weight and save money

* Pay up and stop moaning

Ans spare us all the crap excuses like metabolic rates etc etc. If you eat less you get thinner, if you are an adult. The reference above to concentration camps may have been tasteless, but it proves the point.

If you don't want to be humiliated, don't seek to impose your mass of greasy, smelly body fat on passengers on each side of you. If you do it to me, I'll ask to be moved, or for you to be moved. You have no rights to make my journey hell.

[James 1077]

To be honest I like the idea of putting obese people into the same row as one another so that they are all equally annoyed by each other.

If Ryanair did it then they could possibly also charge people in nearby seats an extra supplement for "entertainment value"! :}

[419]

With 30% of the population being obese today, with the average male height increasing from around 165 cm to nearer 180 cm, you'd think that seats and interior dimensions would have increased over the years to cope with the general population.

So, you think that it's fair for 70% of the population to have to pay more to subsidise the 30% who are obese? Larger seats means less seats, so everyone will have to pay more.

[Beausoleil]

I fit a normal airline seat just fine, thank you., but...

The notion that one passenger is subsidising another passenger is absurd. Airlines are private enterprises that sell tickets. If you aren't happy with what you get, your problem is with the airline, not with some other passenger.

[RingwaySam]

I was on a Charter flight down to Fuerteventura a few weeks back with a fairly big guy sat in front of me. I didn't have a problem with it, and I know Charter Airlines don't have alot of seat pitch.

Just after takeoff he was obviously uncomfortable and decided to try and make himself more comfortable by bouncing around his seat - The seat kept swinging back, then 10 minutes later he reclined his seat and it broke, so the seat was practically touching my face for the rest of the flight. To say annoyed was an understatement. I paid for my seat, I don't expect some fat fella who obviously has no respect at all to make my trip as uncomfortable as possible while he enjoys his.

I have nothing against fat people, but some of them should have some respect for others instead of thinking of themselves all the time.

-Sam

[perkin]

then 10 minutes later he reclined his seat

In my opinion, on aircraft with reduced seat pitch, Ryanair should be applauded for introducing non-reclining seats...it's about time some more carriers took this example. At least then you are guaranteed to get the space you paid for :)

I had a similar large annoying tw@t infront of me one time, seat reclined for the entire flight. He was sleeping when we touched down with a fairly 'firm contact' at which point he woke up with a rather loud exclamtion of "Oh, Sh!t!!". Oh, how I chuckled to myself!! Justice was served on that occasion :ok:

[RingwaySam]

In my opinion, on aircraft with reduced seat pitch, Ryanair should be applauded for introducing non-reclining seats...it's about time some more carriers took this example. At least then you are guaranteed to get the space you paid for :)

Agree 100%! I've been on a few Ryanair flights and for me the seat pitch is not a problem. I know there entitled to recline there seats, but they could atleast turn around and let you know insead of flinging it back and nearly smacking you in the face.

[PAXboy]

I have only just come to this thread but have read every single post. It's best to try and ignore a lot of what has been said and I am sad that the anonymity of the internet has allowed quite so much bad manners.

One of the concerns that has surfaced is the problem of those that carry weight out to each side (unlike vanderaj) who may not be able to get down the aisle - except by walking sideways. THAT is a real concern but one that will not be stopped by the carriers for fear of a discrimination suit and I expect that we will see the evidence in a accident report at some stage.

vanderaj... the new gen 737's. For some reason, they have shorter straps as they expect midgets to fly on them.My guess is that Boeing decided to use shorter straps to save money. Take NNNN seat belts per year and reduce the webbing by 10/15cm each and then add that to the other small savings of weight and money? But then, I always was cynical.

I once had to sit next to a Muscle Mary [snip]. Unlike me, there was zero give - he was all hard muscle. He was broad across the chest and shoulders, and he had huge thighs. He probably had a 32" waist and a BMI in the low teens. He spread into my seat in a way I never spread into other's seats. Would you discriminate against him? I thought not.If he could not fit into the seat - then Yes, but remember I am pax not crew/staff.
I waited 35 minutes the last time I flew with my wife for the ground crew to find a wheelchair. It's really not the disabled person's fault that they can't walk, any more than it's a baby's fault for not being able to walk, or deaf people unable to hear or blind folks to see.Nobody in this thread has accused your wife - or any other disabled person - of it being their 'fault'. Please, that does not help your, otherwise, well presented case.
With 30% of the population being obese today, with the average male height increasing from around 165 cm to nearer 180 cm, you'd think that seats and interior dimensions would have increased over the years to cope with the general population. Instead, seat pitches have narrowed to stack max capacity, 17" widths have stayed the same since the 1950's - see Fokker F-27's for the same 17" width seats you get on any LCC today.Yes, it is uncomfortable but that is what an unfettered capitalistic society will do! In due course, they will either decide that there is a special market that they can go for, or they will be compelled to change seating dimensions and pitch by the FAA. My guess is that some of them would like that, as it would give them an excuse to put the prices up!

However, it must be remembered that AA tried the seat pitch as a marketing pitch a couple of years ago - and it failed. They did big adverts, showing a couple of rows being pulled out from Coach, and all the other rows having their pitch opened up and all with no increase in price.

Guess what? people didn't care, it was the pure price on which they based their purchase. Yes, there might have been some other influences of FFMs and so forth but they did not get the extra pax to warrant it and so they have, as I understand it, put the pitch back. Looking at comparison tables on the usual seat comparison web sites, AA for International Domestic are at 32", matching most of their competitors. Incidentally, when looking through US Domestic Economy, I noticed that the ERJs of some carriers had seats that were up to 1" wider than the CRJs.

[lurkette]

Did some of you have a fat wicked stepmother in your childhood or something?
Sheesh.
Even underweight people are uncomfortable in the coach seats of the newer planes. And God help you if you need to pee while the meal cart is in the aisle, whatever your size.
Andrew, I'm sorry for what you and your wife must go through when you travel by air. The person who suggested train travel as the alternative must not live in the US like I do...and must also know where a special train that crosses oceans is located !

[SLF3]

I have had several extremely unpleasant flights sitting next to people who were just too large for the seat. I'm sorry, but I don't see why my comfort should be compromised to accomodate someone who, for whatever reason, does not fit in the seat. If somone does not fit the seat they should be required to pay for two: the normal commercial rules of engagement then apply, and they should buy the cheapest pair of seats they can find.

[radeng]

The basic point is that the seats are generally too small for the majority of people.
Having said that, I came back from AMS last May and had great difficulty fitting in a Club Europe seat - and needed an extension seat belt. 11 days later, I was sent into hospital and when the diuretic worked, I p**d 7.85 litres in 24 hours and lost 13kg in 2 days. So I didn't fit the seat because of illness - which gave me 28 days in hospital and I'm still not back at work. So not everybody who can't fit in a seat is deserving of condemnation. BTW, how do you lose weight when you're on a high dose of steroids?

[m500dpp]

Great thread!!!!

Simple, as pax we are freight (albeit self loading!) , and therefore pay by a combination of weight and size. So you get a standard seat width and weight allowance which would correspond to an average person. If you need more than the seat width you pay extra, and why not have solid boundaries between the seats so that those sitting next to an obese person doesnt suffer and the obese one does, seems only fair.

Of course you also pay extra for excess baggage, and why not?

Just imagine an aircraft that got a full load of 20 stone plus pax, it would seriously affect the take off weight calculation!!!

(assume average weight is 12 stone or 168 lbs 200 pax at 280 lbs gives extra weight of 112lbs x 200 22400lbs or 11 tons :ooh:)

with the population getting increasingly obese it may soon be necesary for safety to weigh everyone in when checking in...............

[jeanyqua]

I just feel...that if you know you're overweight as a traveller....for whatever reason...and especially if you purchase a seat on a lcc...then have some consideration.
Trust me...if i ever sat next to you...i would have no hesitation in resting my elbows on your girth.
If you feel you have the right to invade my space,then only rightly so,i should do likewise...no...?
I'm average height and weight,and the average seat width can be a bit tight sometimes...never mind accommodating any human being,with a fat backside.!!
Book two seats,or upgrade.....it's such a simple solution.:)

[bealine]

In the old days, when Gatwick was at that funny little "Beehive Terminal" 1/4 mile up the road from where the airport is today, the aircraft were mainly DeHavilland Rapides, Doves or Herons or perhaps a Handley Page might make an appearance. These small propeller aircraft were very weight critical and the seats were sold to the passengers on a combined passenger and baggage allowance. (I believe the "Zeppelin" Airships also sold a combined passenger/baggage weight based ticket.)

Nowadays, we work on a notional average weight of 75kgs for an adult male 65 kgs for an adult female and 50 kgs for a child. Obviously, if we have too many portly passengers on a flight, we could get to the stage of offloading baggage or cargo to fly within the correct loading limits.

At BA, I have only ever seen a passenger charged for an extra seat because of his size once - and that was only because the flight was totally full and we had to off-load a passenger (deny boarding) in order to accommodate the overweight guy! It was done very tactfully - the Duty Officer sought a volunteer for off-loading and then took the obese man into a corner of our Executive Club lounge to tactfully explain out of earshot of anyone else that a second ticket would have to be purchased...........no humiliation, no tears, just a quiet businesslike discussion!

I don't think, in the case discussed, the passenger objected to buying a second or third seat - it was the humiliating way he was treated that upset him! .........and I would agree!

Fatness is not the fault of the person in many cases and it is wrong to ridicule them. Indeed, in the case of the lonely or sad "comfort eaters", their eating is a form of self-harm and they need help! As human beings, we are sociable creatures and it is probably the lack of companionship from one's fellow human beings that causes comfort eating!

1. Nobody ever told anyone that "Fast Food" would pile on the pounds - it just sort of happened!

2. So many saturated fats are hidden in everyday foods.

3. Lonely and sad people often eat for comfort.

4. No one ever tells you how fat you will get if you drink alcohol regularly!

5. There are medical conditions ((eg) underactive thyroid gland) which can result in excessive girth.

[Capot]

Fatness is not the fault of the person in many casesAnd then there are 5 causes of obesity listed, each of which is a different way of saying you get fat if you eat too much because you are too dim, upset or whatever not to do that.

Nobody ever told anyone that "Fast Food" would pile on the poundsCome again? We've heard about nothing other than the dangers of fast food for decades! It's b****y obvious; fast food drips fat!

Saturated fats aren't hidden, except from the illiterate. They are listed on the packaging.

No one ever tells you how fat you will get if you drink alcohol regularly How dim have you got to be not to realise that? Never heard the expression "beer belly"?

And once more, it's not the underactive thyroid gland that makes you fat, it's the food you eat when you suffer that, and that is controllable if you want it to be. (Consensus view of 3 doctors in my family.)

[radeng]

There are other things make you fat, like being on insulin because you're on steroids. You have to have a certain amount of carbohydrate because of the insulin, and that with the steroids piles on weight. I've cut back on the food to the point where I've gone perilously close to hypoglycaemic several times, and still I'm increasing in weight. I'll be glad when I'm off steroids.

[PAXboy]

m500dppwith the population getting increasingly obese it may soon be necesary for safety to weigh everyone in when checking in...
Actually, what happens is that, every year, there are test weight measurements made, to establish the changing average.

For many years, I recall, South African Airways did this. At check in there was a sign asking for volunteers to sit on the scales. The reading was hidden and formed no part of the check in. Across three months, they would have thousands of weights of people (age and gender noted) and they then used this information for themselves and sold the data to other airlines.

It was often done at quieter regional airports, rather than main cities. It is my understanding that this process continues so that airlines know the average weight - if not the girth! Weights are amended by the statisticians to allow for differences where required but the overall weight change is tracked.

In the very early days of flight, as bealine mentions, passengers had a combined weight limit but they were actually weighed with their luggage. There was a special seat and the bags and person placed on it. I have read of this continuing with the Dragon Rapide into the 1940s.

[BaronChotzinoff]

I'm looking forward to the day when petrol is so expensive that all these people who eat too much, sit around all day and drive everywhere JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN actually have to get off their asses and haul their bulks around for themselves as our forefathers did. As a cyclist who does 150 miles per week and only eats 2 meals a day of light veggie food (plus a few beers at weekends) I am fascinated by how these overindulgent fatsos are going to find it when they have to get up a 1:8 hill under their own steam (and plenty of it, no doubt).


I do sympathise with people with medical conditions not caused by past overindulgence - but then you have to ask, why should they want to fly anyway? If you or I were incurably incontinent, would we organise our life around being in the centre of groups of people knowing we were stinking them out? I think not! There are very good reasons why the insane, handicapped etc, while being afforded the very best quality of life they can have in our society, nevertheless live caringly closeted apart from the general herd.