End of days for CPL's flying left seat over 5700 kgs

[TooBadSoSad]

The new Part 61 has a nasty surprise waiting for all those flying aircraft over 5700 kgs with a CPL. This will no longer be allowed and all pilots flying as PIC on these aircraft must have an ATPL.

The next surprise is that flight tests for an ATPL can only be done on a turboprop or jet or level D simulator - no more Baron or Seneca ATP tests!!

There are a lot of other surprises in store, some good and some bad, but all in all the new regulations are really good for SA aviation.

[Q4NVS]

The new Part 61 has a nasty surprise waiting for all those flying aircraft over 5700 kgs with a CPL.

Long overdue...

[fly1981]

Does the 'loop Hole' not still exist???As far as I know the only way Cpl pilots are flying from the left seat on aircraft above 5700kg's is if the aircraft is certified for single pilot operation. Part 61 does not change this, or does it???

[Prop Job]

I can only speak for B190 operations, but I know a lot of guys are using the alleged "loophole". In fact, it is not a loophole at all. The POH specifies it is a single crew aircraft, but it has certain conditions. If you look at the limitation section they say:

1.) An operative three axis auto-pilot system must be installed.
2.) No more than 9 pax are allowed.
3.) Even when flying with only 9 pax, the other seats have to be disabled with the approved kit.

Operatos just look at the first line of the POH and think, "GREAT"! Nobody ever bothers with the rest...

[TooBadSoSad]

Even if it will be flown single pilot, that pilot will have to have an ATP.

[Jetstream_lover]

Will the format of the ATP exams change? I am studying for mine at the moment and have had rumours of change as on JAN 1st?!?!


Cheers

JL

[SAASFO]

Although Part 61 will be implemented in January, there will be a phase in period, and those pilots who are already training using the current system will be able to continue, including writing the current exams.

The same will go for pilots operating over 5700 kgs without an ATPL. They will be given a certain time period in which to complete their ATP whereafter they will lose the right to operate left seat if they have not obtained the ATPL.

[FlyItLikeARental]

What about the contract DHC-6 or B200 drivers that load their 12,500lbs machines to the medium category? :E Does one require an atp in that instance?

[madherb]

What about the contract DHC-6 or B200 drivers that load their 12,500lbs machines to the medium category? :E Does one require an atp in that instance?

Flyit - you're not suggesting..........no! Shock! Horror! OVER:mad:ING? (wash out your mouth!) :uhoh::uhoh:

Surely no-one would do that ? (not even Shirley!)

Eish! Having an ATP would definitely put a stop to that. Or at the worst, would enable one to fly legally.............

:ok:

[Goffel]

I love it when the industry knows more than CAA...(Not that that is too difficult).
Read Part 61 properly.
:ugh:

[madherb]

Privileges of commercial pilot licence (aeroplane)
61.05.9
(1) The holder of a valid commercial pilot licence (aeroplane) shall, in the type of aeroplane for which he or she is rated,
be entitled to -
(a) exercise all the privileges of a private pilot licence (aeroplane);
(b) act as pilot-in-command in any aeroplane operations other than commercial air transport operations;
(c) act as pilot-in-command in commercial air transport operations in any aeroplane certified for single-pilot
operations;
(d) act as co-pilot in commercial air transport operations in any aeroplane required to be operated with a copilot;
(e) act as a tug and safety pilot; and
(f) exercise all the privileges referred to in this sub-regulation by night.
(2) The holder of the licence shall be entitled to exercise the privileges of the licence for any of the special purposes
referred to in regulation 61.05.10(1), if the holder holds the appropriate valid rating.

Pretty straightforward. You can only fly PIC on single-pilot aircraft with a comm.

Anyone care to post the B1900 limitation referred to in Prop Job's post?

[beckers]

This only applies to the 1900D.
The 1900A/B/C manual says minimum flight crew: One Pilot.


1900D Airliner
Section II – Limitations
P/N 129-590000-3ETC1

Page 2-11

MINIMUM FLIGHT CREW

The minimum crew is one pilot. See the Kinds of Operations Equipment List in this section for required equipment

Page 2-30
KINDS OF OPERATIONS EQUIPMENT LIST

SINGLE PILOT OPERATION ONLY

1. Headset
2. Boom Mounted Microphone
3. Emergency, Abnormal, and Normal Procedures Checklist
4. Kit 114-5042
Remarks and/or Exceptions: All passenger seats in excess of nine (9) must be rendered nonoccupiable by “DO NOT OCCUPY” seat belt tube assembly.

[Low-bypass]

Well i've got no problems with all the changes happening on the part 61 it was about time things go the right way,in most part of the world BE190 are being flown by ATP holders.However i'd like to put my reserve on the fact that to be able to do an ATP checkride it has to be done on a turboprop or level D jet simulator no more on light twin piston such as Baron,Seneca etc...what would happen for those who already meet the requirements for their checkride but are still flying light pistons or are instructors but have no turboprops or jet experience?does that mean they've got to wait till they get a job on such planes?what if they don't?

[fly1981]

I agree with the fact that they will not allow pilots to test on light twins. 1500 hrs of instruction time only means that on paper you have got the hrs required. In terms of operation of aircraft in the 121/135 cat. a person with 1500hrs bombing around a cicuit in a c182/PA34 has no experience to render him capable of commanding an aircraft above 5700kgs, purely because he has an ATP!!! That ATP means nothing,excepting on Paper. When I started flying contract. I flew with one to many captains who had command on the aircraft because they had an 'ATP', 90% of the experience behind them consisted of flying C150/C172's in the circuit. THIS IS DANGEROUS!!!!!!!! The new regs thankfully end this problem, Well done SA, a step in the right direction.

[Flyer14]

I think the new regs also say something about 500hrs multi-crew operation for an ATP - that would also prevent people getting instructor ATP's.

[fly1981]

Its great to see they are realising what flying experience is important. An F/O with 1000 hrs P2 in a 1900D in my opinion has more valuable experience than an instructor with 1000hrs in a PA28. Not that I have any thing against instructors, just dont believe they should be fast tracked towards command a a medium category aircraft because they have a couple more "P1" hrs, and an ATP, that was achieved in the circuit!!!!BRING ON PART 61!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

[Q4NVS]

I also don't see why a CPL should be at the controls of a 1900 simply because of a loop hole in the wording of the CARS.
(We all know that was not the intention...) :ugh:

Before all the CPL's jump on my back, ask yourself this:
Do you really think the Operator went through all the Legal Drivel in order to give you CPL's a "break". (I think not)

They do it to get Cheaper Labour (i.e. screwing you) while at the same time pocketing the difference in fees paid by the Contract Originators.

Rather sit on your bhind, write the exams, get the rating while demanding to get paid what you are worth. That stimulates growth (personally) as well as for the rest of the Industry in SA.

PS. We were ALL CPL's (and even SPL's) once...

:zzz:

[Prop Job]

According to Part 61.07.3 (1):

An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (aeroplane) must have completed, in aeroplanes, not less than 1500 hours of flight time of which -
(a) 500 hours must be on multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes that are type certified in accordance with FAA Part 25, JAA Part 25 or an equivalent certification standard.

Is there any way we can still count our B190 co-pilot time towards this, since it is FAA Part 23 certified, or can we only count it towards the 1500 hours total time?

[Flyer14]

Good question! I'm sitting right seat on a B190, does that mean when I hit 1500hrs I've still gotta go and find another 500hrs multi crew on something else.

Should of flown Lets instead!:E

[Prop Job]

Flyer14, the law goes on:

According to Part 61.07.3 (1):

An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence (aeroplane) must have completed, in aeroplanes, not less than 1500 hours of flight time of which -

(a) 500 hours must be on multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes that are type certified in accordance with FAA Part 25, JAA Part 25 or an equivalent certification standard, or

(b) 250 hours must be as pilot-in-command of which up to 150 hours may pilot-in-command under supervision;

(c) 200 hours must be cross-country flight time, of which 100 hours may be as co-pilot or pilot-in-command under supervision;

(d) 75 hours must be instrument time, of which not more than 30 hours may be acquired in an FSTD approved for the purpose; and

(e) 100 hours shall be night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot.

Those are the basic requirements. I was hoping I could count my B190 co-pilot time as multi-crew time, since you can skip (b) to (d) that way. If you've got the requirements stipulated in those areas, my understanding is that you won't need the 500 hours multi-crew time.

[QBY]

fly1981

You are probably not an instructor. Do you really think "bombing around the circuit" is all that instructors do? Try flying 3 to 4 flights a day, 2 hours per sortie with at least 3 approaches in each sortie, simulating every emergency there is in a light twin and that down to close to minima's a few times a week. When last did you do a SE approach in a twin at night down to 200' in IMC?

You have to be on top of everything the whole time to try and teach and correct nervous students mistakes. You don't have the luxury of a co-pilot. Your procedures will never be as good as during the time you are an instructor.

Instructors work just as hard to reach that 1500 hr mark, and I have found the standard of flying and decision making higher in many ex-instructors than in those who did not instruct.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that.
Safe flying

[fly1981]

The 1900 co pilot time can be counted if it is on the D. Also, the company you are working for must write a letter to the SACAA stating that the aircraft is operated in a multi crew enviroment, then they will accept it. If the co- jo isnt active in the decisions being made on the aircraft he isnt flying for the right company. Seems like I have upset 1 or 2 people, that wasnt the intention. Flying in the sticks in a C210 did not come into the discussion at all, Unfortunately I have never had the pleasure. And no, I am not an instructor, but as I said, in the begining of my contract career, I flew with more than a couple of captains that were fast tracked towards command purely because they had an ATP that was achieved in the circuit. Then the guy sitting right becomes the instructor, regardless of whether or not he has an instructors rating.

[Contract Dog]

Fast tracked to command because he had an ATP???? Thats like saying he got fast tracked to a flying job because he got a com. If somone gets off their arse and does the ATP and as a result gets a P1 position, then they deserve it!

I have flown with great and crap captains and co pilots, all from different walks of life and all got to where they were through building up HRS in one form or another. Some pilots are good, others are not, being a 210 driver or and instructor has nothing to do with it. It is how much effort the individual put into their flying that shows.

Fly safe

Dog

[Q4NVS]

Then the guy sitting right becomes the instructor, regardless of whether or not he has an instructors rating.

I have flown with many a new Captain on Type. This happens due to various reasons, for example Seniority in the Airline, Transitioning or Upgrading from another Fleet etc.

At such a time the New P1 (on Type) could have less than 75hrs on the machine. Although it takes time for any individual to settle and the odd "correction or two" is inevitable, never have I regarded myself as "becoming" the Instructor.

One day when you possibly qualify as an Instructor and bat around the "Circuit" in a US$ 2 Million Twin Turbine trying to get a 200hr CPL rated on type :\, then suddenly you will realise what Instruction is really about.

Having performed a number of different flying disciplines in my short career, I guarantee you that to this day Instruction is one of the hardest, least respected and most demanding...:ok:

It is how much effort the individual put into their flying that shows..

Well said CDog!

[Request FL510]

Great news....closing this loop hole is something that has been a long time coming. It will put comm pilots flying large aircraft where they belong...in the right hand seat.

South African aviation and the CAA can count themselves fortunate that there has not been a serious accident involving a Comm rated P1 in the LHS of a 1900 or similar. I believe the laywers for the insurance would have had a field day.

Show me any of the operators that have taken this gap (a/c certificated for single pilot ops i.a.w. Part 23) and either removed or disabled the other 10 seats...yeah right.

If you try and do a JAA validation (valid for 12 months only - not renewable) the hours on aircraft certificated for operation by one crew only such as the 1900, 200, 228, 110 and other that are operated by SA operators with two crew (MCC specified in Ops Manuals) DO NOT count towards the MCC requirement.

I believe that the CAA has hit the nail on the head with the FAA and JAA Part 25 and 500 hours MCC requirements for ATP as it lends some measure of credibility to the SA ATP.

Fox in the hen house???

[ARENDIII]

Well said Q4NVS!

[Low-bypass]

Guys have drifted far away from the topic and turned into an instructors vs non-instructors.I'd certainly understand that a certain flying experienced on a complex machine need to be done before an ATP be issued,instructors hours are highly valuable and very good to have most of the case it's an added advantage as you get to learn a lot on various things such as:decisions making,fuel management,psychology,weather etc... but in order to obtain an ATPL one need more than that as its name implies some very highly skills must be demonstrated like having flown turbines or jet powered at high altitude,having done actuals IFR approaches not simulated etc...However my concerns lies with those especially the foreign pilots who trained here and wrote their ATP here.A friend of mine from north africa has its ATP frozen and flies 737-800 in his country by the time he gets the hours to have it defrozen how would he do?since he can't do it on a light twin he won't go as far as rent a turboprop plane or book a slot on any SAA 737-800 simulators to have his checkride.I've got a friend currently flying B 767-300 in africa who recently came back from doing his ATP checkride in America on a piper Seminole.Why can't it be done here.Happy landings to all

[Flyer14]

This whole 1900D thing pisses me off a bit. The thing is over 5700kg, yet is certified for single crew. Most of the 1900's I've flown don't have autopilot and I havn't heard of anyone operating them single crew. A Let 410/420 is lighter and not even pressurized but the hours are worth more than a 1900. Why in the world did Beechacraft certify the thing for single-crew ops in the first place?

[Q4NVS]

For Part 91 Operations (AFAIK), similar to certain Citation's and early LearJet's.

[Petrovsky]

You could speculate that the 1900 was an expansion on the 200 which allowed Beechcraft (at the time) to add on to the existing Type Certificate Data Sheet (A24CE if you would like to look it up), and kept it in the FAR Part 23 certification requirements. Albeit in the "Commuter" category. Presumably much less costly to do than apply for a new TC in FAR 25. The 1900 is an "airliner" without meeting all the requirements for FAR 25, Transport category, over 5700kg.

[Lt Gonville Bromhead]

Just wished to make a small addition to the post made by Request FL 510.

He stated:-

"If you try and do a JAA validation (valid for 12 months only - not renewable) the hours on aircraft certificated for operation by one crew only such as the 1900, 200, 228, 110 and other that are operated by SA operators with two crew (MCC specified in Ops Manuals) DO NOT count towards the MCC requirement."

For general information, I have this year obtained a UK JAA MCC exemption certificate based on over 500 hour of 2P flying in a 1900D. I had to obtain supporting letter from my employer NAC stating the a/c was operated as multi-crew. I was unable to obtain ANY assistance from the SA CAA in this process. The JAA regs required the SA CAA to provide a Part 121 Ops Manual confirmation letter but despite my many written requests i didn't even get so much as a dicky bird from them. But the UK CAA granted the Certificate anyway when I showed them copies of my many unsuccessful letters to the SA CAA..!! What a shower..

[MatchstickPilot]

Not having kept up with all the goings on about the 200 1900 saga, I was wondering why the King Air 350 would not have formed part of this whole argument. After all, it fits nicely between a 200 and 1900.

Can anybody give me a short heads up on this, or point me in the right direction?

Confused new turboprop pilot.:bored:

[Goffel]

The loophole to fly the 1900 on a com has now been closed.

Priviliges of a comm pilot is about to be amended on the acting as PIC on an A/C certified as single crew, to read, below 5700kg.

This now closes the loophole on B1900 and any other A/C weighing in at over 5700kg and certified as single crew.

There will be a time frame in which the pilots of the 1900's will be given to try to get their ATP's and after that time frame expires, should he/she not have the ATP, he/she then slides back into the right seat.

Fairs fair to the guys/galls that got off their butt's and studied further.

Oh and just to pee some people off, try becoming an instructor now...eisch, that all I can say.

Goffel by the office.

[madherb]

Hey, we're just going back to the days of yore, when anything above 12500lbs. (5700kg) required a Senior Comm. licence. For the young guns, that was obtainable at 750hrs, having passed the ATP subjects.

Bad luck now, you have to have 1500hrs ...

Eish! Seems so long ago..........:sad:

[south coast]

Fl510 and Lt...

I also brought my hours from flying a 1900 and 200 for a SA operator to the Uk when I did the JAA licence, and the hours were counted towards the Multi Pilot hours required for the ATPL and the MCC.

Lt, for my MCC I just downloaded the page from the SA CAA Part 121 where it states 2 pilots are required and before I left the company I worked for I took photocopies of their AOC which had all the registrations of the planes which were operated under Part 121.

I also had a letter on their headed paper stating that the contracts for the UN and oil companies required 2 pilots for their insurance too.

FL510, if you read LASORS, UK CAA regs, it says hours flown on a Part 23 or 25 type can be used towards the mutli pilots hours required for the granting of an ATPL.

(b1900d is certified under Part 23)

[warloc67]

Goffel,

Having perused Part 61 Subpart 5, which is up for comment on the CAA website, I still do not see the 5700kg restriction. This, to my understanding at least, means that effectively nothing changes. The 1900 is still certified for single crew ops which means that the priviledges of the CPL still allows for flying as PIC although 121 requires 2 crew, but only states that they must hold valid licenses and ratings (No mention of type of license ie ATP).