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Roland Pulfrew
22nd Nov 2007, 21:08
5 Former Chiefs of the Defence Staff fire a broadside at Gordon Brown, Swiss Des and the Defence Budget.
New Liarbour spin doctor says that current Defence Chiefs say that they are happy that the covenent isn't broken and they are content with the spending round. Well Sirs Now is the time to stand up and be counted. Let's hear you back up their Lordships!!

nigegilb
22nd Nov 2007, 21:13
The dog days of a socialist govt, oh what fun.

Looking forward to the polls tomorrow......

N Joe
22nd Nov 2007, 21:22
Missed the Beeb version but it looks like it might be the lead on ITV in 10 minutes......

LFFC
22nd Nov 2007, 21:30
Five former defence chiefs being openly critical of government policy.
An NAO report about to criticise the sale of QinetiQ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7108444.stm).
A massive breakdown of security within the HMRC (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/consumer_affairs/article2917658.ece).
The first run on a UK (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article2816403.ece) bank in over 100 years.
Senior civil servants identifying Stalinist ruthlessness (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/20/nturnbull120.xml) within government.


All routes seem to point back to one person! And I think he's in big trouble!!

N Joe
22nd Nov 2007, 21:31
AIDU

Yeah , like you're not watching it!!!

N Joe

Roland Pulfrew
22nd Nov 2007, 21:36
Lord Brammall - ITV News - BRILLIANT :D:D:D:D:D

Melchett01
22nd Nov 2007, 21:42
Our beloved Stalinist leader is having a new arsehole torn on Newnight as we speak. This is the best thing for my morale that I have seen in months. And what's best of all is that all the attacks are directed at GB in person - not the system. Pointed, very cutting and telling remarks directed straight at GB by 5 former heads of defence for letting the troops down.

Labour MPs and party aparatchicks are now rattled, trying to politicize things and accuse everyone else of screwing up. Is that the sound of chickens I can hear looking for the roost?

Edited to add: Just seen Derek Twigg try and rebut the claims - you could see him squirming and in his refusal to answer yes/no implicitly stated that the 5 former Heads of the Forces didn't know what they were talking about. Just about sums up the shear arrogance of this absolute shower.

Sgt.Slabber
22nd Nov 2007, 21:49
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2925980.ece

Ouch...!

insty66
22nd Nov 2007, 21:55
Also on newsnight.
Seems like it was a well planned (ex)military operation!


(BBC you beat me)

Melchett01
22nd Nov 2007, 21:57
If you want a really good bedtime read - have a look at Sgt Slabber's link to the Times:

Flight is the only refuge as the big guns turn on Gordon Brown and Two Jobs Des

The attack was launched from land, sea and air by no fewer than five former Chiefs of the Defence Staff. I believe this is what the Americans call a “surge”. I understand it has been given the codename Operation Destroy Reputations

Roland Pulfrew
22nd Nov 2007, 22:05
Derek Twigg. What a K:mad:b. How does this bloke have the audacity to say what he does particularly about morale when in the Telegraph Online have this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=AQ0HB51NN1VPZQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/11/22/narmy122.xml

adminblunty
22nd Nov 2007, 22:17
I would be interested to hear the views of the current CDS. Having very recently left Air Cmd and the RAF I know what the 5 former CDS have said is spot on.

Come on Stirrup, grow some balls, or will you wait until you leave as well?

Magnersdrinker
23rd Nov 2007, 04:22
Damm missed this :( typical the RAF keeps me at work while this is on :ugh:

Pontius Navigator
23rd Nov 2007, 07:20
Now we know why the 5* CDS post has been disestablished. Keep them out of the Lords.

Oh the law of unintended consequences or did George (Machiavelli) B have this in mind all along?

6Z3
23rd Nov 2007, 07:52
If any of their Lordships felt this strongly, I wonder why not one of them spoke up when they had hold of the buck. Actually no I don't; not one of them would have made the senior house if they had. Besides, if any two of them had spoken up together while in office it clearly would have amounted to mutiny.

Wycombe
23rd Nov 2007, 08:09
Current First Sea Lord put under extreme pressure by Nicky Campbell to agree with the 5 on 5live this morning (they were broadcasting from Ark Royal)

Really unfortunate that none of (self-) servers will enter and add weight to the debate.

Si Clik
23rd Nov 2007, 08:14
Ministerial Bluff,

The thing with this is that the Minister has a point...

{Ducks quickly to avoid blast}

Until those in the Service are prepared to directly criticise the CSR outcome then we must assume that all are happy with it.

With no anouncements of cuts, redundancies or reducing front-line capability this will quickly blow over. Does anyone really understand why Defence Inflation always sits between 5-7%, because I certainly don't know.

Old Soldiers, Sailors and Airman have always done this (apart from the direct attack on one person) so the Public will pass it off as just standard service wingeing.

I think you find that Northern Rock and the HMRC issue (especially when the 7m letters arrive this morning) are far more important to the people.

Si

JagRigger
23rd Nov 2007, 08:25
I consider that those stating morale is still high are confusing the 'press-on-itus' and local morale that forms the backbone of the front line British serviceman and without which they could not hope to survive day to day, with a genuine underlying unease at continually being asked to do more with less.

The fact that I could no longer, with a clear conscience, continue to serve a Government that asset strips to pay for conflicts, with what appears a total disregard to what the forces need, was the main reason behind my leaving the Service.

mystic_meg
23rd Nov 2007, 08:27
Derek Twigg. What a K:mad:b. - Indeed. The quote I liked was something along the lines of: "They don't know what they're talking about"
Hmm.... care to have a little think about that one Derek?

If we, (UK plc) want to be 'big hitters' in the foreign policy department, then slack-jawed Gordy needs to dig deeper into his pockets to fund our troops properly to achieve it. It's not exactly rocket science, is it?

tucumseh
23rd Nov 2007, 08:44
Si

“Does anyone really understand why Defence Inflation always sits between 5-7%”.


Quite complex, but two simple everyday factors are;

Industry must somehow recoup the R&D costs they incur. MoD R&D funding is negligible.

At a more mundane, but equally important level, the MoD contracting policy (competition) and the grossly inefficient and bizarre way in which it is implemented, means companies have to invest huge sums bidding for work which only the winner can recoup. Small and medium size enterprises suffer disproportionately, often being forced to spend man-years bidding for a piddling job. It is common for the bid costs to be upwards of 10% of the contract value.

D-IFF_ident
23rd Nov 2007, 08:44
I think the 5 former CDS are accurate in their observations, and each are proven in armed conflict. Unfortunately they may not be so well equipped for the spin, lies and double-speak of politics. The 'attack' was well coordinated, for example, but to begin their campaign in the midst of the Northern Rock fiasco and straight after the Euro 2008 qualifier - no matter the outcome of that particular game - may have been mistimed. Now that the government are 'fighting back' the whole thing will sputter and fall at the start unless their Lordships already have some current chiefs of the forces on side.

I'm looking forward to the comments from the current chiefs of all 3 services, surely they MUST have an opinion and MUST be consulted in this matter. Shouldn't they? Well if they each have a pair then they will....

nigegilb
23rd Nov 2007, 08:49
Disagree, this attack came during a Defence debate and took everyone by surprise. Govt looks punch drunk, reeling after blow after blow. Press love this it gives them something else to batter Gordon Brown with. UKAF is in a mini crisis that is going to get worse. Denials will seem hollow in a few months time.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
23rd Nov 2007, 10:05
I listened to Des the two-hatted on the Today programme. It seems that he covers the Scottish Office in his spare time; http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today4_defence_20071123.ram . What a star!



I'm looking forward to the comments from the current chiefs of all 3 services, surely they MUST have an opinion and MUST be consulted in this matter. Shouldn't they? Well if they each have a pair then they will....

Remember that CDM was created at 4 star rank and he's been completely silent. I suspect that he's more guilty of being a "yes" man than any Service COS.

dallas
23rd Nov 2007, 10:24
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7108650.stm

Good ole Des is struggling...

saying morale among serving soldiers is "as high as it could be".
Which doesn't really mean anything, does it? He seems to be clutching at as many straws as he could be, to me.

and

This is not an issue that has ever been raised with me by any serving soldier when I have been in an operational theatre
Cowardly Des. Of course nobody who's been press-ganged to meet you is going to express dismay at him being dual-hatted. The blokes want to stop paying council tax for their trench and the ruperts don't want to instantly end their careers. Very cowardly.

BlackIsle
23rd Nov 2007, 11:52
Another opportunity for CDS and his cohorts to tell it like it is - will he contradict his predecessors -all 5 of them - or will he offer his best professional advice based on his years of experience and appreciation of needs? Well I'm not holding my breath on that but I wonder what he will have to say to the troops.

3 bladed beast
23rd Nov 2007, 11:58
We've all had the privelege( and pleasure) of the recent talks by CinC Air and I can say, due to this inspiring 'chat', that my morale is now sky high and I totally agree with Des Browne.

Infact, I can't wait to get back to Basra again, please please please send me!

Did CinC manage to name all the Squadrons at Benson in the end??:ugh:

Oh thats right........

Bob Viking
23rd Nov 2007, 13:21
What I particualarly enjoyed was his predicatable spouting about how we (UKAF) have enjoyed the longest sustained period of increases in defence spending in recent history.
That's right Mr Twigg. Of course we have.
We have also enjoyed the longest period of sustained ops since about 1945!!!
Not to mention the fact that almost every aircraft/ship/tank/rifle has simultaneously needed replacing or upgrading because of successive governments reticence to actually spend any of our taxes on the equipment that our forces need!
They honestly seem to think it's our fault that most of our kit is old and knackered!
Let's not even mention that if it wasn't for bl00dy politicians we could have been flying F-16s for twenty years by now, instead of waiting for the mighty 'Phoon. (I'm not slagging the jet off, just pointing out that it has arrived a mite later than may have been ideal!)
BV:mad:

Cornish Jack
23rd Nov 2007, 14:03
Somewhat surprised that ONLY 6Z3 makes the most valid point ... that their magnificent Lordships managed to contain their anger until they were safely encased in their scarlet robes and with pensions intact!!!:mad:
When did we last have people at the top who spoke out when they SAW the problem - not leave it until they were across the drawbridge?? The Abandoned Earl and the Atcherleys demonstrated how it should be done ... our present "Fearless Five (not)" are as much a waste of space as the people they seek to rubbish.:yuk:

Melchett01
23rd Nov 2007, 14:07
I do wish they wouldn't keep banging on about the longest period of sustained growth in defence spending. So the spending has gone up - but not by enough to fund what we are being asked to do - it just means we can afford to get a Landrover when we need a Warrior; we get a Herc when we need a C-17 etc .

Not sure which one of the Lords isaid it, or in which rag they said it, but they hit the nail on the head. Of course the guys in theatre have the kit they need. The problem is the guys back home don't, so there is no ability to train for ops or maintain currencies and skill sets in between time on ops. And that is the dangerous thing because you then end up sending incompletely trained guys out to an operational theatre where they spend the first bit of their tour not dying and working out how to use the kit!

I don't really know how the Minister for Scotland and his minions, the Minister for Late & Overbudget and the Minister for Personnel Overstretch can't see that? Surely, they should be reasonably intelligent ... being Ministers and all that. Or was Sir Humphry right .... in any govt, of all your MPs, 100 are too old, 100 are too young which means you are stuck with what's left to form the Govt.

Bob Viking
23rd Nov 2007, 14:14
Of course they know about the problem. They're not THAT stupid (although sometimes I do wonder!).
They are just so commited to putting a bullsh#t, politicians, weasel like spin on everything that comes out of their mouths that they just won't admit it in public.
They're all lying, scheming cowards and I can't say I'd relieve myself on any of them if they were to find themselves in the unfortunate situation of being on fire. (If only!!!)
BV:mad:

Groucho
23rd Nov 2007, 14:23
As has been said, if there are no bleatings form the current 'waiting for my peerage' serving officers, then GB and team can justifiably say all is well. What I would LOVE to see is a BBC 'Today' show where a current high-*anker is asked to deny the claims of the 5:)

Alber Ratman
23rd Nov 2007, 14:29
I have PVRed. Why???

My morale has been shot to ribbons...

Two's in
23rd Nov 2007, 15:27
Not wishing to rush to the defence of any of them, but senior serving Officers who speak out against Government policy tend not to remain effective senior serving Officers for very long. That is the nature of serving the Government of the day and the Oath of Allegiance. It's an unfortunate truth that to get to those lofty heights requires a degree of political savvy that may not always represent the interests of those below - those who do not play the game very well are not given the opportunity to be heard. A bit like the 22-year Junior NCO NAAFI warrior who has always "told them straight".

The real story here is that is takes 5 retired Officers to expose the day to day management of the MoD for what it is under this Government, an utter disgrace and abrogation of responsibility to those who loyally serve HM the Queen.

BlackIsle
23rd Nov 2007, 15:34
Mike Jenvey- thanks for the reference to hansard makes very interesting read. People on here whinge about the guys waiting till they're out but at least they are making their points and making them well; in addition the Lords has more defence expertise amongst its membership than the House of Westminster. Thought provoking reference made to difficulty of seeing "the brink" until you go over it.

Almost_done
23rd Nov 2007, 16:06
The phrase that has been trotted out again and again is 'previous governments', but have I missed something and have we had no elections in our recent past. So if we have had an election and the previous government won wouldn’t that make them the 'previous government' when they blame the 'previous governemnt'?

How long can the Labour Party trot out this rubbish and think to get away with it, continuing to try blame a party that has not been in power for 10 years? :ugh:

Roadster280
23rd Nov 2007, 16:40
I'd like to hear the CDS say something along these lines:

"I am aware of the comments of five of my predecessors. I am constrained by my position from publicly expressing whether or not I agree with their comments. I can say however, that I do not disagree with them".

Gets him out of a jam both ways, I should think.

dallas
23rd Nov 2007, 17:11
Even "Mine is an apolitical post, so I'm not willing to comment." would have the desired effect.

Interestingly, I haven't heard him say anything.

Donna K Babbs
23rd Nov 2007, 17:28
Anyone fancy a coup d'etat?

Archimedes
23rd Nov 2007, 17:35
CDS has, in fact, observed that the armed forces are overstretched, and did so quite clearly to the Select Committee:

Link (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3163777&highlight=stirrup+comment#post3163777)

You'll notice that despite the fact that he cleverly found a way of saying 'yes' to a question that he shouldn't really have answered 'yes' to (since it was a politically-loaded query), this went down badly in some quarters on pprune, while it was only picked up by a few journalists, since the issue wasn't deemed newsworthy at that time.

D-IFF_ident
29th Nov 2007, 11:51
Now that a week has passed I just wanted to bump the thread back up from page 4, point smugly at my previous post and ask 'did they make any real difference at all?'

Roland Pulfrew
29th Nov 2007, 11:59
DIff

You can of course point out your smugness and :( you may be right. But do we know that? Lord Robertson said that Defence spending should go up to 3% of GDP. There have been a few other articles in the press. It hasn't gone away just yet. It may take a while for anything concrete to come out of their Lordships broadside.

Sadly, I think that you will be proved right in the end; the 2 Browns will just ignore it and it will fade away. :{

Epimetheus
29th Nov 2007, 12:09
Unless momentum could be maintained if someone picked up on the report that accomm at RAF Colt is not good enough for illegal immigrants yet it was for the military, while at the same time the point is being made elsewhere (including the formers Chiefs of Defence Staff) that accomm for the military is not up to the basic minimum. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2963348.ece

So if Home Office and ex-Chiefs are saying the same thing, how can MOD be different?:confused: