WSOp's start to walk ?

[Rude C'man]

Just lately 3 have walked from ITC and more are wanting out of the training system, have to say mainly linguists although a few wet and dry have had enough. Have OASC got it wrong with their commitment or are we just getting poorer candidates. I understand from AFCO's that the foot flow through the door is down? What’s happening on the Sqn's are people voting with their feet. Heard commissioning is back on the cards except no good for those on PAS !! Any thoughts?

Oh and now ITC are going to train ATC controllers, Never realised the Aircrew training was so good !!!

[TescoValue]

LMF from those who have walked. If you want to be rear crew that much you will take all the **** to get the end product.

[Pontius Navigator]

Several years ago I was talking with a Nav Stude. He had been commissioned in the Navy (or about to be) but listening to the Observers at Yeovilton and the crash rate he decided the RN was not for him.

He joined the 'safer' RAF.

I was gobsmacked.

[OHP 15M]

Rude-C,

It may not be a question of commitment or poorer candidates, but perhaps a growing realisation of what they might be getting themselves into given the present Nimrod climate? And as you suggest, these WSOps (wet, dry & lingo) would all be destined for Nimrod.

As for commisioning, why not allow PAS WSOps and increase thier PAS ceiling to from 20 to 28? After all, those selected for PAS are supposed to be high-calibre experienced aircrew and would therefore offer good commisioning potential. On the subject of PAS, as the scheme was designed to decouple rank from pay, why can't NCA progress beyond level 20? In fact, as a good retention measure, the PAS celings should be removed so that everyone is able reach the top level (35) - sorry for the slight thread creep but the potential of a £15,000 pay rise over 15 years would be quite nice, not to mention the benefits of retiring on AFPS05 at age 54+364 days and pissing off every single non-aircrew officer up to level 9 Wg Cdrs. :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

AIDU, not WSOps per ser but everything to do with testing for courage, or intelligence, at OASC.

[jollygreenfunmachine]

Surely there is no problem with recruitment or retention or manning in our trade. Otherwise our 17.5 year retention bonus would still be getting paid, instead of being binned at the first oppurtunity after only 3 years!

[shawtarce]

The basic airman aircrew training course is designed to weed out the wheat from the chaff. There is no way to subject a recruit to the pace and level of dedication required to pass the course, without putting on it.

The standard of recruits we get through to the generic phase, the trade training bit, are generally very high.

The only way we could stop certain people leaving is to make the course even more fluffy, which will affect the standard of the end product.

I suppose we could turn the whole process into an attendance course like the officers get................?

Touch paper lit, back 10, 8, 6 ...................

[Rude C'man]

RTCB- Wrote ....
There will always be people who realise that "it" is not for them. There used to be a bloke on Chinooks - gobby git - who didn't fancy going away to Afghanistan or Iraq before it. So he engineered a posting to Cranwell. When it was discussed about posting him back to SH, he then claimed that he had a bad leg or something, even getting himself a minor operation, and therefore managing to extend in post. Shame really. LMF?

That fine upstanding Crewman can't any more 'Upstand' , he had a 4 hour privately funded op to reconstruct his ankle and got downgraded so he couldnt go back !! As for short tour , I believe the tour length is 2-3 yrs and he hasnt been at Cranwell that long. Roger get yer facts right mate or STFU.
Give him a ring Im sure he'll put you straight on the matter .

Shawtrace...
I suppose we could turn the whole process into an attendance course like the officers get................?
I agree with you ... maybe we should make it an easier course .... but there again its not an Aircrew Course anymore it's about training SNCO's .... NOT!!!!!!...... NCAITC send some of their Failures to IOT......wonder why ?

[shawtarce]

That fine upstanding Crewman can't any more 'Upstand' , he had a 4 hour privately funded op to reconstruct his ankle and got downgraded so he couldnt go back !! As for short tour , I believe the tour length is 2-3 yrs and he hasnt been at Cranwell that long

You can't deny that he is a bit gobby though................

[Rude C'man]

I never did.... after 22 yrs he hasn't changed one bit ... you always know where you stand with him ...

[Pontius Navigator]

Surely there is no problem with recruitment or retention or manning in our trade. Otherwise our 17.5 year retention bonus would still be getting paid, instead of being binned at the first oppurtunity after only 3 years!

Actually JGFM you may not be correct.

In his conclusion to his 6 monthly report to the Boss CAS has said that recruiting and retention is very worrying and that the AFB are focussing particularly on this area.

[ALM In Waiting]

Could poor recruitment and withdrawal from training be a result of the whole generic system?

[will fly for food 06]

Its not just happening in the Wsop world.

[Admin_Guru]

The RAF (& Navy) need additional Helicopter Crewman on the frontline yesterday: FACT
There are barely enough WSOp going through the training pipeline to replace the sickies and discharges be it through time, PVR, NGR: FACT
Helicopter Crewmen will never be able to restream unless long term sick:FACT This never was a realistic option, and the concept is brainless.
So desperate are they that they have accepted back into a flying role ex ALM > GD/OpsSup > Commisioned Crewman: FACT That did shedloads for the morale of young thrusters who remained dedicated to the ALM trade but were denied commisioning opportunities.
It is crisis management of the highest order, and so desperateis it, that certain key members of the management food chain believe that a lessor trained individual (Door Gunner?) is acceptable to achieve a numbers on seats.
Therefore potential Helicopter Crewmen should be recruited as Helicopter Crewmen; rather then generic WSOp, and fully SH trained in the shortest realistic time to meet OCF intakes.
The SAR bit should be done at the earliest opportunity once Combat Ready, and whilst highly desirable, remains far from essential, especially in the short term. Oops, forgot, that is what they used to do before the sly AEOp recruitment package came into being. What a shambles.
There should not be a single WSOp on a holding tour/det anywhere on the planet.

[Sven Sixtoo]

I well remember Admin Guru's very first post some years back.

Has the cheeky little cub grown up?

Sven

[charliegolf]

Still has his crayons.:ok:

CG

[humpndump]

The generic course is a nasty gamble end of story. The officer at the top (who probably got an OBE for his efforts) must have realized recruits would walk. This is wasting so much potential!! I'd say most join with a set intention of where they want to end up.

[Donna K Babbs]

I'd say most join with a set intention of where they want to end up.

Most of the 55 Sqn NCA staff at Cranwell said the same thing prior to the change - did they listen? Did they fu.......:ugh:

[mystic_meg]

you always know where you stand with him ...

which is just as well considering that he can't reciprocate, allegedly:E

[Rude C'man]

Admin Guru-
So what happens if they fail any part of the training?.... just bin em to IOT ...
I agree the generic system has its flaws ... in principle it's good training for NCA however, it does need a revamp !!!
If SH needs so many crewman why are they still streaming Accustic and why hasnt Shawbury shortened all courses to teach what is needed?
Maybe because of contracts, lack of staff ,ac and a system that cant cope with any more trainee's? discuss

[Admin_Guru]

So what happens if they fail any part of the training?.... just bin em to IOT ...

NAC ITC are not there to select, OASC do that. They are there to train, and given the right quality of training they should all pass. Expensive Physchologists have seen to that. If LMF is an issue, give them a tissue, on the way out of the door.

I agree the generic system has its flaws ... in principle it's good training for NCA however, it does need a revamp !!!

So start the staffwork, for you are right, it is overdue. You can only push crap uphill for so long before it roles down on top of you.

If SH needs so many crewman why are they still streaming Accustic and why hasnt Shawbury shortened all courses to teach what is needed?

I had heard that they had, but SARTU remains entrenched within DHFS which IMHO is unecessary as part of basic training. Many WSOp (crewman) never use a winch, and those that do: rarely. It could easily be a specialised qualification like A Cat NVG and SF Ops. A small cadre of suitably qualified and practised individuals, which I believe is what 72 did when holding a SAR commitment.

Mybe cos of contracts lack of staff ac and a system that cant cope with any more trainee's? discuss


:ugh:Urgh; TXT SPK, and from a seasoned mentor.
An efficient training system must remain robust when all around it is falling apart. For if the finger is taken out of the dam*, we all drown.
*Word changed due to PC EO indoctrination.
Lighten SARTU's load and get the aeroplanes where they count, basic training. Slightly over recruit, to accomodate the wasters who pull the whool over OASC eyes. Co-locate Puma, Merlin & Chinook OCF Flights at Benson (MSHAFT) and work together with the common goal of getting this almighty mess sorted.

Establish motivated training staff who never txt in public: CU L8r M8:E

[OCCWMF]

out of the dam*, we all drown.

*Word changed due to PC EO indoctrination.

And presumably actual spellign. Guru eh?

[Rude C'man]

I had heard that they had, but SARTU remains entrenched within DHFS which IMHO is unecessary as part of basic training. Many WSOp (crewman) never use a winch, and those that do: rarely. It could easily be a specialised qualification like A Cat NVG and SF Ops. A small cadre of suitably qualified and practised individuals, which I believe is what 72 did when holding a SAR commitment.

Heard , yes they did trial it wether it is back to the 30 hrs that is really required like in the old days , who knows
72 Sqn did hold a SAR commitment and trained the crewman well , mainly using old and bold ex SAR guys...
As for getting the ac in the right place at the right place at the right time and re-visiting the generic system , way above my pay scale and outside my remit . I suggest some very good admin guru or highly paid officer in the WSOp world ( if they are WSop or are they Ops Spt ?) sorts this mess out. It wasnt the SNCO's that decided to go generic or stop commisioning.
ITC does sort out the issues , and as for issueing tissues , thats not PC ... If a Cadet wants to walk he/she can walk no problems.... its challange by choice, I think they call it !!

[shawtarce]

Admin Guru, perhaps you should just call yourself guru, you seem to know a lot about everything............

Many WSOp (crewman) never use a winch, and those that do: rarely

All SH aircraft have a winch capabiity, and the ARCC can call on any military asset to help out in any SAR operation.

If they had never completed the SARTU course they could be putting themselves and the casualty in real trouble.

During my years on SH, I used the winch on many occasions, and the limited training I received from SARTU was invaluable.

NAC ITC are not there to select, OASC do that. They are there to train, and given the right quality of training they should all pass. Expensive Physchologists have seen to that.

What a crock.

Stick to your JSPs

[charliegolf]

Shawt said

During my years on SH, I used the winch on many occasions, and the limited training I received from SARTU was invaluable.

That's my memory of the 80s on Pumas. I take it you're referring to the 2 week Valley course? Not many at 33 did that though I seem to recall.

CG

[Admin_Guru]

All SH aircraft have a winch capabiity, and the ARCC can call on any military asset to help out in any SAR operation.

That could possibly be true if they were not all deployed fighting bad guys around the world on wars that are not fully supported by HM Govt, or have things changed in the last 5 mins.

SH & Winch Ops

72 Sqn Wessex in aid of MV Antrim Princess - Irish Sea - 1983
18 Sqn Chinook in aid of Air India 747 - Atlantic Ocean 1985

Anything else in the last 27 years? Planned 'tasks' do not count as they can use dedicated crews.

.....and for the moment at least, we still have a dedicated SAR Force who are trained specifically to do the SAR Job, and whose employment potential (in aid of the civil powers) has been diluted to a degree by the introduction and subsequent expansion of Civil Air Ambulance agencies. (Who as it happens are also not supported by HM Govt)

You cannot have it both ways fellers, you are either at breaking point and need workable solutions that may well be radical, or you are bleating lots but have elastic to spare. If you are stating that there is room for manouvre, then this thread is unique in that perception.

A reminder that this is all from my suggestion that the (desirable) SAR training is completed at an appropriate point during your first tour. You do not have to be Griffin current to be taught SAR, and in fact it would be a lot preferable to be taught on type; as having experienced Chinook downwash I can tell you that it is very differant from an MSH helicopter.

[Master of None]

AG

The IRT commitment in both operational theatres requires a rescue hoist/winch capability in order to cope with minefield incidents (as you well know!). Training on type is often difficult with the lack of available airframes/hours/hoists and the front line fleets often have to rely on the trg recieved at SARTU, backed up by a quick famil on type (1 or 2 serials) on pre det trg. There was a problem in the late 90s early 00s when some crewmen had not completed the SARTU course and Flts found themselves unable to constitute crews on ops.

The DHFS course has been shortened for rearcrew and I know ways at further reducing the time spent in trg are being looked at.

[bigley]

Just needed to add for those in the know, AG is NOT me (this time!).

VF

[creightz1051]

IM going through halton at the moment, and im scared out of my wits of NCAITC as i've wanted this for a long time and a lot of people have told me a lot of shiite, eg 60% pass rate, 2-3 hours sleep a night, 4 roi's for diffrent things and your outted! i want to go rotary either merlin or chinook, anyone have any advice or tips for the course??

[Master of None]

Then who is the new Admin Guru?!:confused:

Surely one was enough.:mad:

[Rude C'man]

IM going through halton at the moment, and im scared out of my wits of NCAITC as i've wanted this for a long time and a lot of people have told me a lot of shiite, eg 60% pass rate, 2-3 hours sleep a night, 4 roi's for diffrent things and your outted! i want to go rotary either merlin or chinook, anyone have any advice or tips for the course??

Get your head down grad from halton and dont listen to rumour , ask lots of questions on your visit and give 100 % all the time and be 110% committed to WSOP not just a small part of the job.

[EdSet100]

Admin Guru,

NAC ITC are not there to select, OASC do that. They are there to train, and given the right quality of training they should all pass.

Well, yes, in theory. But the fact is that the selection process doesn't work quite as well as you suggest. There is a sticky at the top of this board helping people get through the selection process, who will be selected on the "driving test" syndrome.

OASC should be used as the first part of selection. The ITC should be the next selective process. Leadership, dedication and resilience can be portrayed at OASC, but it is only when the individual is really put to the test that these qualities are examined fully. The aptitude to fly as a team member can only be vaguely assessed at OASC, so the generic aircrew phase should also be seen as another selective process. Once through that, the individual has done his bit to prove he is not a training risk and he/she deserves the best specialist instruction.

IMHO OASC is only the beginning of the selection process.

[Strop Hanger]

Will someone please tell me, in these days of cut backs, why people who run away from the front line, get ingrowing toe nails and then have to pay for their own operations (presumably because it wasn't serious enough for the MOD to pay) should be on the PA spine? Surely this is just a waste of money! Get back fit to fly and help out or shut up!!

[cynicalint]

AIDU, you'll have to present a better bait than that....

[donald stott]

Gents,

Is there any merit in recruiting WSOPs from our current officer corps who are in ground branches? Appreciate this sounds a little far fetched; however, I think we could entice flt lts in to the WSOP branch.

Standby to standby!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

DS, an interesting proposition that might get just one or two.

A few months back there was an ex-RN Officer planning to rejoin as a WSOp.

The flow was well established in the other direction though. The Flt Ops branch recruited WSOps and commissioned them which balanced flying pay and against officers' pay and status.

[OHP 15M]

DS,

The vast majority of officers in ground trades are there because they did not make the grade to be aircrew. To remuster to WSOp they would need to resign thier commissions, as WSOps are Non Commissioned Aircrew.

If you understand the difference between WSOp and WSO then you are almost right ... 'sounds completely far-fetched' rather than 'sounds a little far-fetched' !

[donald stott]

OHP,
Tks for pointing out the difference between WSOp/WSO - I should have known better than to drink and type. Perhaps you are correct to point out that the officers in ground branches are there because they didn't make the grade to be aircrew in the first place (there are other reasons - medical etc). That said, and out of curiosity, is it feasible to employ a junior officer, who is currently in a ground branch, in a WSOps role if he/she had attained the required IQ test for WSOp? If my understanding is correct, to be an AEOp you required a score of 75 (commissioned pilot/nav/FC and ATC required higher scores).
DS

[OHP 15M]

I can't see the RAF allowing any ground trade JO's to 'remuster' into a non-commissioned WSOp role, even if they passed the selection/medical/aptitude criteria (its not just done on IQ by the way). It's probably prohibited by QRs. However, it would be interesting (and probably amusing) to hear what a Stn Cdr would say to a young admin officer who submits a General Application to become a WSOp! Surely we can't have a commissioned officer joining the ranks of the great unwashed can we?

But why not if there are problems with WSOp manning/recruitment? It would be the ultimate embarrasment/failure for the RAF/MoD to have aircraft available to fly operational missions but not enough aircrew 'bums on seats'.

So if there are any ground trade JO's out there with a keen desire to better themselves by becoming Non-Commissioned Aircrew, get those Gen Apps in
:ok:.

[Tiger_mate]

You say that as if it has never happened before.

There are NCA who are ex RAF & ex Army Officers already serving.

Likewise there are many 'helicopter' people, front and rear crews changing service within the UK Armed Forces. As this is rumour control, the rumour I am hearing is that 54 x AAC (inc ex-Army) pilots have applied to the RAF.

[PTC REMF]

it would be interesting (and probably amusing) to hear what a Stn Cdr would say to a young admin officer who submits a General Application to become a WSOp! Surely we can't have a commissioned officer joining the ranks of the great unwashed can we?

I know of an Air Eng Sgt halfway through IOT on an Ops Spt commission, who was offered his crown, he accepted it and returned to NCA. The fall out was enormous; up to AOC interview level I believe, but then again the potential pay difference was also quite substantial.

[Rude C'man]

SH
Will someone please tell me, in these days of cut backs, why people who run away from the front line, get ingrowing toe nails and then have to pay for their own operations (presumably because it wasn't serious enough for the MOD to pay) should be on the PA spine? Surely this is just a waste of money! Get back fit to fly and help out or shut up!!
SH your obviously so good you dont need help.
IMHO I woudn't let the muppets at Peterborough operate on me either , I think you'll find that by paying private any orthopeadic surgery is sped up by 6-12 months and done by a professional. Ask a well known WSO with you who is now back WSOp about waiting for mil surgery! He'll point out the errors in your so well balanced arguement.
PN
A few months back there was an ex-RN Officer planning to rejoin as a WSOp
I believe he was chopped Pilot failed JEFTs then went RN AWO failed
now he's quit WSOp trg , he is now back a civvy where he probably will do ok mmm sounds like he was a real good candidate to send WSOP. Another grate OASC choice product .

[thepurplepheonix]

Rude, almost correct...AAWO is a long way along the career path from where the RN and I parted ways (it's a specialist adqual post PWO). All else is correct, and I'm doing fine outside.

The NCAITC was definitely the hardest thing I've done in terms of initial training, and I wish my coursemates well when they finish in a few weeks and the staff for their immense professionalism. I enjoyed my time in service but, as has been pointed out, I wasn't successful in my chosen areas and so decided to pursue what will be a more productive life outside. This will be my last post on Pprune, and I'd like to thank all the people that have given me good advice while I've been using these forums. Be safe one and all.

TPP

[Vie sans frontieres]

The NCAITC was definitely the hardest thing I've done in terms of initial training

Not as 'ard as it used to be though. Grrrr!

[PingDit]

'Not as 'ard as it used to be though. Grrrr!'

Couldn't agree more - bunch of softees these days!

Ping

[charliegolf]

I still look back at ITC as one of the most challenging things I've done. Quite proud to have hacked it.

Went back as staff 6 years later (86) and still thought it challenging. (bit girlie not having to make your own kit like we had to, but good nevertheless).

CG