Air Eng rumour control?

[cheesedoff]

Hello Ladies & Gentlemen,

The grapevine has it that at a secret Wilts airbase there is consideration being given to putting GE's in the Air Engineers seat because of a severe lack of Air Engineers in the system? (Harks back to a few years ago doesn't it)

Can anybody cast any light on this or is it just another rumour? Either way a curious situation we find ourselves in.

[Donna K Babbs]

That will never work. How the hell could the GE's then complain about the f***ing aircrew! :}

(And yes I know they have AT's on the E3!)

[Yeller_Gait]

AIDU,

This must be close to a record......... completely off thread and developed into a slagging match by the second reply!

It does seem though that something needs to be done about the Air Eng situation. Waddington and Kinloss as well as Lyneham will need them for many more years.

For what it is worth, the ATs on E-3 are not, never have been, and never will be aircraft GEs.

Y_G

[bwfg3]

This raised its head years ago. I think it was put to bed by the fact? that it is illegal to have flight deck crewmembers who havent passed an approved course of training. And as of 2 years ago, the RAF has no approved course of training for engineers. PMA wanted to post a rotary crewman straight onto an E-3 OCU, I think that one died a death. IF there is a problem with numbers, it is down to poor planning when they decided to kill the eng course, and poor management by peeing off those who were in the trade and have now left or are leaving.

[Ginger Beer]

Mornin bwfg3 or should I say afternoon where you are?
There is indeed a legal issue with the placing of non qualified personnel into a Flt Deck crew seat. All crew must have completed a recognized/approved course of flying training and hold the appropriate license or military "Q" prior to being able to attend a type rating cse/OCU. Imagine BA taking ints GEs and putting them onto a type rating course without first being qualified to fly? JAA/ICAO would be very interested to hear about that one. As would the passengers/peeps down the back?
As bwfg3 states, this particular situation stems for the gross mis-management of the Air Engineer Cadre. It didn't take the brains of an Arch Bishop to realise that stopping Air Eng Trg "BEFORE" the older fleets replacements were introduced, was doomed to be a huge mistake and a pure cost cutting and career enhancing measure for someone. When has the service ever brought a new aircraft type into service on time? Let alone several types, A400/FSTA/MRA4(Nimrod 2000:p) None of which have entered service on time or are likely to do so. We all know that these things slip to the right, they always do.
That doesn't mean that these fleets won't enter service at some point and indeed the Air Eng will eventually be phased out however, in the mean time we are left trying to find a suitable way forward in order to ensure that aircraft can be suitably manned by qualified and competent aircrew.
I suggest that we ignore the red faces of the policy makers and re start Air Eng Trg at Cranwell on the back of the new modular course. All the Air Eng lessons have been archived and and issues like the AEPT are not unresolvable.
Let's stop crisis managing this and throw e.g. these GEs through a proper course. The service has a competency problem at the moment on some fleets and the last thing we need is for a crew seat to be filled by a "switch flicker" who is unable to cross check and complement the other flight deck members.
Ginge

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Hello Ladies & Gentlemen,

The grapevine has it that at a secret Wilts airbase there is consideration being given to putting GE's in the Air Engineers seat because of a severe lack of Air Engineers in the system? (Harks back to a few years ago doesn't it)

Can anybody cast any light on this or is it just another rumour? Either way a curious situation we find ourselves in.

What a load of rubbish.
I have no idea where you got this little chestnut from. :ugh:

[OmegaV6]

Nice rumour to start .... but misses one extremely salient point ....

The GE's section is nearly as badly undermanned as the Air Eng sections ..

so just where do these "new" bodies suddenly appear from ??

:ugh:

[Ships-Cat]

Dust off the cobwebs, get rid of the niff-naff that drove us out and bring back the "old and bold". I could do "circuits and bumps" as a job for my latter years, beats the office (although the "view's" better) - let you serving guys go to the Ops and use your UK time for family, not ticking boxes.

[The Gorilla]

I love this....

The wheel on the train goes round and round... round and round round and round!!

:}

[FE Hoppy]

If they were to match my current take home pay and terms I might dust off my logbook and come back....................ha ha ha ha

Sorry, too many GnTs tonight!

[14greens]

Well they are obviously so short at the secret air base that they are posting people out to other types, we are getting 4 from the multi engine transport aircraft with cavernous hold. And I do believe at least 1 has gone north and at least 1 to the flying dishplate
So!!!
rumour control way off me thinks!

[The Gorilla]

Hoppy
How goes it?

If they offered to double what I am taking home now I wouldn't go back!!

Hee Hee, rumour control you can't beat it!
:)

[fergineer]

Hi Hoppy......not even a first class ticket back would drag me back from here......however would consider the NZ Airforce for a couple of years though......nah that would mean having to get me hair cut!!!!!
Seriously though we saw this coming years ago as someone has already mentioned.....Just how many guys are left in the trade should have lost the leaving in droves mentality now that the flying jobs outside have fallen by however Hoppy and a few othershave found well paid ground inst jobs out there and good on them.

[gjh613]

Ah, but in the good old days engine fitters used to fly on heavy aircraft when the number of engines rose above the number of hands the pilot had. The trouble was that they were losing too many skilled and valued groundcrew on operations. The solution was to invent the air engineer. Not for me to debate the relative worth of engine fitters and air engineers!

[Hoop Stress]

well done F***y you to$$er. Keep looking after your loady mates and ignore the branch that needs your attention the most.

[Hoop Stress]

sorry, i have deleted my rage-driven blunder

Steve Anderson (if that helps)

[ChockIce]

I think it's fair to say that all branches of the NCA cadre are suffering. While it is probably true that the Eng branch are at point critique through lack of foresight, the question is does PMA manage any of our careers?

[N Joe]

OmegaV6

Obviously you get the loadie to do the GE's job, rope in a random mover to replace the loadie, and if you're also short of SVCs, stick a couple of pax in the doors as spotters and get the last one onboard to bring the chocks in with them!

N Joe

[OmegaV6]

OmegaV6

Obviously you get the loadie to do the GE's job, rope in a random mover to replace the loadie, and if you're also short of SVCs, stick a couple of pax in the doors as spotters and get the last one onboard to bring the chocks in with them!

N JoeOkies NJ .. your point is accepted ... promotion to

a) OC Base Support Flt
b) OC Force Headquarters
c) OC C4I

whichever you choose, as you probably actually know what they mean/do (please tell me... I still haven't worked out what they are !! )

and if you find an "Eng Ldr" hiding... you win a flight in a Herc ... if we ever find a serviceable one and a crew to man it ....

:bored::bored:

[N Joe]

OV6

a) Is tht a real flt?
b) Wrong branch!
c) Do I look like a mobile phone salesman?!?!?!?!?

All I know is OC C4I doesn't actually have any "I" and most of his mail still goes to Coltishall - where OC 41 Sqn's post box used to be!

Had enough flights in hercs, but thanks for the offer.

N Joe

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"rope in a random mover to replace the loadie"

The whole reason we have Loadie's is precisely because of Movers therefore your suggestion will never ever work :rolleyes:

[lastmanstanding]

Heres a thought.
Why not bring some of our commissioned brethren back who are now GD(AirEng) and give them the job the Queen trained them to do instead of an SO3/2 etc.
Or hows about bringing back all ex Air Engineers who have been out the trade for say 10 years or so, as Ops hindrance branch officers for example, and give them a seat. After all its happening real soon is it not!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
Withering on the vine............................

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

And you retrain them how................:rolleyes:

[lastmanstanding]

Ask our Jocko brethren

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Jocko bretheren............

How do we train them...................:rolleyes:

[isaneng]

Back to original post. Never intended for GE's, they are undermanned as noted, and already working blooming hard. Idea was to take generic cse WSOps and then train them on type. Harks back to that strange idea of letting people change type/specialisation throughout their NCA career. Sorry, did I say 'career' out loud.........

[fergineer]

Hoop stress.....my name fits the name . As my name suggests I am an FE not a loadie however some of my best mates are loadies does that help!!!!

[kilwhang]

I can go one better than that........I was an Air Eng - and married a Loadie (and, no, she wasn't a 'nice boy!').
AND......I knew Fergineer when he was still a Cpl Techie :)

Seriously, though, it pains me to see what is happening to the Services these days. I'm afraid that the Air Eng manning issue is just one of the many problems that those still serving have to face.

[FE Hoppy]

however Hoppy and a few others have found well paid ground inst jobs
ehrm...
"Very well paid training management positions" if you please.
And if any ex Air Eng's need a job I'm looking for Ground instructors based in Singapore, Brisbane and probably Zürich.
PM your CV's
That doesn't help the few left in does it!!
GEs need not apply despite you being very nice chaps.

[cheesedoff]

Cheers guys,

Just points to one thing really. PMA have made a complete hash of the situation. Sad to see they cant get their act together, but to be honest,I am not surprised at all. If these monkeys were working in civvy street they would have been shown the door by now and thrown out of it. Crisis Management = Bufoons.

[mad eng]

Or hows about bringing back all ex Air Engineers who have been out the trade for say 10 years or so, as Ops hindrance branch officers for example, and give them a seat. After all its happening real soon is it not!!!


No way???????
Can't be......can it?
How much flying pay?

[bwfg3]

cheesedoff

Yep, I'd sack the PMA monkeys who are destroying the trade, particularly the one whose name begins with F ( F ...wit). If you are reading this ive got a baseball bat, some vaseline and a VERY long memory :eek:

[cheesedoff]

Mad Eng (that narrows it down a bit!)

Is that the plan? Are there plans afoot to bring in retired Eng's?

[lastmanstanding]

Well if the stories from up north are true, then yes. Flying Pay wont be an issue as theyll prob just get straight onto PA!!!!!:mad:

[cheesedoff]

Bwfg3,

Think I know the person you are talking about. Is he a lying, backpeddling & devoius B*****D?

I believe he Is the person to blame for what has happened to the trade.

Baseball bats at the ready!

[Ships-Cat]

Would be one thing popping back in - but Kinloss? Think I've still got my tunnel map somewhere.

[isaneng]

Not aware of any plan to bring back those who jumped ship to the Ops Support branch etc. Have heard of individuals who have offerred their services, unaware of PMAs response. Are the numbers really that bad? I know BZN are busy, but although ISK and LYN are theoretically down, are they really short of bods versus aircraft availability and tasking levels? Sorry frisbee boys, freely admit to knowing nothing about your status!

[lastmanstanding]

Reliable source indicates Ops Spt geezer is on course in New Yr . Be interesting to see his terms.......................:hmm:

[cheesedoff]

Lastmanstanding,

Interesting rumour, presume the rumoured Ops Spt geezer will be going to BZN? Any other news of others being brought back to fly?

[Door Slider]

Its happened on rotary already, guys who got commissioned into the Ops Support branch have now came back to take up Crewman Leader posts. I dont have a problem with it as they were desperately needed and they are good blokes (would be a different story if they were tw**s) And on the bright side commissioning within branch is very likely to make a return for the rest of us too. Good luck for all FE's!

[cheesedoff]

Got an FE colleague who had requested to go back to flying duties. He appears to be getting nowhere at all with the deskie.

[14greens]

back to an earlier post i put on here obvioulsy the air eng branch is so short on the herc that they can afford to post 4 to the tri motor!!!!!
where is the short fall
Eh! up Hoppy how ya doing mate?
PM me let me know how yr getting on, you still Zurich way?

[The Gorilla]

I can't imagine any one who is sane even remotely thinking of going back, but I suppose that not every one can re-adjust to the real world. I know many many Air Engs who have left but absolutely none who have re-enlisted. Of all those who left and went flying on civvy licences, non are flying now.

I do know of one who PMA got in touch with and asked him to reconsider his decision to leave and that was within the last six months. He had been out about 18 months or so.

I am sure the powers that be will find some way of sorting the problem out! ;)

[NutLoose]

Surely in this day and age, the Air Eng is simply there to ballast out the weight of the Air Loadmaster down the backend? :}:p;)

[Indicating Full]

Sorry Gorilla -I think you are wrong.
There are people that left the RAF and came back in - and are still flying. There are also lots who left with civvy licenses and are still flying outside. Perhaps your point was that you don't know any personnaly.
We've had three pages of rumours and some serious slagging of at the way PMA are managing the situation but has anybody any proof that there is actually a crisis at the moment? I agree that the (premature) cessation of air eng trg and the inevitable delays to new a/c will cause problems in the future. This will require some radical initiatives. Searching out former FEs from distant corners of the RAF and re-training a WSOp(Any) who looks suitable would seem the way ahead. I can't think of any better way and re-opening the school in it's former guise is a non-starter.
I also know for a fact that there are air eng's in ground tours which the system is preventing from returning to flying or extending their service. Hope there's a change in policy before the individuals are gone for good.
IF

[The Gorilla]

IF

Quite right and actually I had one of those oh yes I do moments after I logged off last night! I do indeed know of one ex air eng who went out and then came back in again and AFAIK is still in.

Cheers
TG

[lastmanstanding]

Cheesy, the aforementioned bloke is going North-along with a few 12 hour orbiters from Lincs. I know of two guys at BZN who left and are back in, both on the TRi*. Another rumoured to be on the way back in to fly the 10 after being away for 3 yrs or so. :eek:

[cheesedoff]

I know somebody in a ground tour who has approached the deskie regarding coming back flying and is having no joy whatsoever. Gotta question the logic there

[The Gorilla]

Wow sounds like the floodgates to back in are opening! Whatever floats your boat I suppose. I still cannot believe that any body who is sane would really volunteer to go back in and fly planes that are not fit for purpose.

But I do personally know one ex 12 hour Lincs orbiter eng who is never going to be coming back. He couldn't afford the pay cut! :):):)

Good luck everyone.

[lastmanstanding]

By all accts the deskie offered a chap a/c type of his choice if he came back in!! He'll prob get PA as well :confused:

[cheesedoff]

just does not surprise me at all. 2 and a bit years to go and thats me walking out of the door. There has been no attempt by the deskie to try and retain me at all (so much for their 3 1/2 yrs signing on plan)

[StopStart]

Maybe you're not very good?

:ok:

[Sideshow Bob]

What gets me is the inconsistency of the policies, where two people of the same rank, both moved from up north to the same aircraft type at the same time in there careers, admittedly 9 months apart, both on similar assessment. Yet one is offered further service and one is kept dangling by PMA. Really makes you Cheesedoff. :ugh: You think they would be doing everything they can to get the guys they have to stay, not keep in the dark not knowing if they will have a job next year.

P.S. StopStart he's actually one of the good guys :ok:

[cheesedoff]

Sideshow Bob,

Just wondering if e know each other....Or if you know anythng about my situation?

[k1rb5]

You got mail cheese.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

The thread originator asked if GE's were being offered re-muster to Air Eng, and as far as I'm aware, his rumour source is wrong.

However, it does come around every so often. I still have a copy of the letter offering fast track Air Eng training to GE's from the late 90's. Straight to the OCU as I recall. Master Aircrew rank thrown in, but reverting to GE Chf Tech after 4 years.

A visiting AOC involved in the offer was puzzled by the lack of enthusiasm. 'But you would get to wear a flying suit, and travel the world'. Poor dear.

No takers! Hardly suprising really. GE's are at the top of their game, even the average ones are outstanding. And modest.

Why on earth would such a high calibre individual want to remuster to do a job that wouldn't tax a trained monkey?


As my chum and fellow Pruner used to say

'Its such a short step from flicking switches for the Queen, to flipping hamburgers for a clown'

:}

[k1rb5]

You do have to be able to squeeze your butt into the seat though old chap :ok:

[Sideshow Bob]

Cheesedoff
Sorry mate got you mixed up with someone who said exactly the same to met as you put in both of your posts, earlier in the day. He did say today he's not you. Is the person in the ground post GR? If it is we may know each other. He was my next door neighbour before we both went aireng. ;)

[cheesedoff]

Sideshow Bob,

Small world isn't it! Life treating you well I hope

[Wader2]

both on similar assessment. Yet one is offered further service and one is kept dangling by PMA.

Could be something else. Years ago, Nimrod A-Cat FE was refused further service. What he didn't know about the aircraft was not worth knowing. What he didn't know was how to climb the dark brown tunnel.

Cheesed Off 2 and a bit years to go and thats me walking out of the door. There has been no attempt by the deskie to try and retain me at all

Hardly surprising that is the distant future and in the long term planning department but that post is gapped/ooa :}

[cheesedoff]

So, any idea's as to when these supposed Ops Spt / Ex Air Eng geezers pick up their Aircrew manuals and their ODM's for the type of AC they have chosen to fly?

[fergineer]

What you really mean Cheesy is that these bods that are coming back would probably never have made the better postings.....whch is why many left....and now will be taking all the cream postings from the guys that actually deserve the postings.....gonna do great things for retention and moral of those that have stayed the pace awaiting a decent posting. Its just does not ring quite right for me and if I were still in and looking after the guys on my squadron, I would be making noises at the highest level to see what mess they are going to get themselves into now.

[cheesedoff]

Absolutely. There is nothing like the feeling of being S**t on by the good old people at PMA, and I am not alone. Wouldn't mind finding out just what exactly their agenda is and how they can justify what is going on...:ugh:

[fergineer]

Cheesy get your leader to follow this up he should be able to sort things out as long as he is not a yes man, things need to be sorted for the likes of yourself who obviously feel hard done by. If that fails the Sqn exec should get something moving ......if they still do nothing.....with only 2.5 years to do move it up the chain as far as you feel comfortable someone will listen jsut depends on who. As soon as you start taking it higher watch the others move swiftly into place. Good luck with it all......been there so know how you feel.

Regards
Fergi

[Cannonfodder]

Yes, maybe the RAF messed up by closing the Air Engineer school at Cranners, maybe there are a lot of Eng`s out there that are feeling under valued and upset by PMA and maybe there are some Eng`s that are in ground tours and should be back flying.
Just thank your lucky stars you are not a Rotary crewman spending half of his year getting shot at in somewhere hot and dusty. That would never do would it? And besides where would you heat up your beef curry? Thank god every future platform will be operated by 2 pilots and an ALM.
I think you should all dry your eyes and get on with it.............

[Throttle Pusher]

Cannonfodder, I wanted to be a rotary crewman but I did too well in school. (more of a lamb rogan josh sort myself):)

[cheesedoff]

Let the fall out begin. Cannonfodder, you need to go back to your normal way of releasing pent up frustration!

[PTC REMF]

Just thank your lucky stars you are not a Rotary crewman spending half of his year getting shot at in somewhere hot and dusty. That would never do would it? And besides where would you heat up your beef curry? Thank god every future platform will be operated by 2 pilots and an ALM.
I think you should all dry your eyes and get on with it.............
I think you need to do a bit of research mate . There are at least two Air Engs operating as rotary crewmen, and it's quite hard not to have dry eyes at 140kts and in Helmands dust.

[A and C]

Why the hell are you guys having a go at each other ?

It is now time to vent your anger on a goverment that has under funded ALL the arrmed forces for years.

The civil serpents who are at the core of your problems must be most amused that the devide and rule policy is working so well.

Guys it is time to grow up, put aside your narrow unit interests (an RAF hobby) and try to use a bit of political power for the wider good.

[Cannonfodder]

A & C,
Nah, its far more fun winding up the Eng`s.

As for those Engineers that have seen the light and crossed over to a proper job (Rotary crewman) good on you. Its the fixed wing master race of Air Engineers that think they are so special that get on my tits.

[Ginger Beer]

As an Air Eng who has spent numerous weeks and months on Operational Dets in hot n sandy places, I take exception to Cannons naive little rant. Many many other Gingers' have and are doing plenty of time in the desert(s) and not only with their Sqn. I know of many (incl me) who have done a full OOA tour on the ground and in the thick of it, on top of thier normal Sqn Dets.

A and C is quite correct to point out that "the system" is not being challenged correctly wrt many manning issues.

As the Air Eng world draws down, there is going to be an exponential outflow of guys who will walk before they end up where no-one else wants to be. I was offered a nice flying job outside just this week so, there are plenty of other things to be doing out there. I sometimes wonder if we're just waiting for the final push factor to make our minds up?

For me, it's all about quality of life with my family. When quality of life is going to be better out than in, over the timescale of say - one tour, I'm off.

Ginge

[OilCan]

Cannonfodder....appropriate handle m8 :ok:

Given the choice, I'd rather leave the Rambo stuff to you.

...salt & vinegar Sir? :p

[bwfg3]

Cannonfodder,

Grow up sonny, and pray you get signed on by a grateful airforce when the time comes, and your previous service and loyalty are taken into account by PMA. Or perhaps you are of the ilk of that ex-rotary f-wit who knackered the Eng trade in the first place? Because in my line of work, people like fergie, cheesdoff etc are welcomed with open arms and good wages, while your trade? ten a penny mate. :cool:

[EdSet100]

I think cannonfodder got a few big bites, there.

You see, I believe that cannonfodder knows that we all respect him and his colleagues for the arduous and dangerous work that they all doing at the moment. I'm sure he also knows that, despite our admiration for the rotary guys, we do find some time when not blowing smoke up their a$$es to discuss other issues, and so he is being a little mischevious in taking advantage of a rare opportunity to do some fishing.

Right, eh, Cannonfodder?

[k1rb5]

Ed
I hope you are right. I too have the upmost respect for what our rotary mates do. I, like Ginge, have spent a little time in the sand and was tempted to chomp on CF's hook. I now take him and his cabs to and from the sand as an ALM and always go out of my way to do as much as I can for them. Even if it's just a hot meal to make the long journey pass a little easier. It's a shame he uses the same to run down Engineers. Maybe he'd like to PM me his name and I'll take special care his meal is moist next time he's looking peckish.:ok:

[Cannonfodder]

To all you guys who took the bait, finish this sentence "Hook, line and ....."
Excellent fun Eng baiting. Sorry couldn`t help myself.

The real problem with our cadre at the moment is the appalling way that a certain Flt Lt at Innsworth/High Wycombe has been treating us. It is not only you guys that have been promised the world only to find that the carrot is never actually there. That guy is a total throbber who has made so many enemies that it will be interesting to see how life for him on his next sqn will be. Hopefully not mine!!:ok:

[TwoTunnels]

I heard that the MRA 4 was looking at having a third crew member on the flt deck) possibly an AEO (or WSO in new money). Anyone else heard same rumours? No need to train new FEs then...

[cheesedoff]

Gents,

If you know of anybody who has either left the service or was commissioned into another branch and has been offered a chance to get his / her arse back in the seat to resume his / her flying career could you please let me know. Needs to be concrete rather than hearsay....

Dates, places and types along with names is what i need and there is a genuine reason asking.

Cheers

[fergineer]

Go for it Cheesy and good luck to you. Someone somewhere has the answers that you requireand if it stirs up the ants nest then so be it. Keep to your guns you will have the support of many that are still serving I am sure.

[D-IFF_ident]

There was an FE at ISK quite a few years back who left then rejoined. Name escapes me but he was well known for his accordion playing. Sombody up there must remember him.... Can't remember if he was a master or FS but could find more if it helps.

[isaneng]

No 'returnees' at secret wiltshire base, other than the reservists. Whilst work has been started on the plan to take generic cse qual'd WSOps into trg, no dates or confirmation of green light yet. Ref: some earlier posts, not likely to take people already employed on other types/roles, kind of defeats the purpose, Cranditz studes only. Lots of people ready to PMA bash, but they can only go on the info provided (OOSD's etc), and their crystal ball can't predict peoples decisions at potential exit dates. Not trying to excuse all their faux pas, but it can't be easy for them either.

[Yeller_Gait]

Cheese,

Check the flying air-trafficker thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262824)

Ex - NCO aircrew who resumed flying earlier this year.

Y_G

[Biggus]

Ref bashing PMA......

I am not a FE, but even I was of the opinion that the planned out of service dates, which PMA have always been working to, for the Nimrod R1 and E3-D are/were something like 2025.

Given the date when the FE school was closed, and the need for some FEs still in 2025, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that there was always going to be a problem - it is just the size of the problem that may be at issue.....

[EdSet100]

ISK info (all factual):

mid/late 90's: 1 retired commissioned eng and 1 retired MEng - 5 yr PTRS, then commissioned eng given FTRS in Ops Support; finally retired in 2005. MEng extended in PTRS until Sep 07, but lost currency in summer of 2005. Hasn't flown in RAF since then.

At about the same time a FS eng was commissioned into Ops Spt branch.

early this decade - Sgt eng commissioned into grd eng branch, but then resigned and immediately returned to air eng as NCA

Early 2008: previously mentioned Ops Spt Flt Lt (was a FS eng) is planned to join a Nimrod long course.

All the above is fact.

Ed Set

[grinst]

Currently the RAF flight Eng cadre is in hell of a mess, most of the tristar fleet has been grounded/ struggling through not having any currently fit/ healthy Engs. When are we finally going to learn to stop allowing some career officer to make a short term money saving decision and allowing them to descimate a whole branch.
The VC 10, tristar and K herc are around for a long time yet, so why don't we shut the training schools, yeah right?????

[cheesedoff]

So gents, the upshot is this. Apart from the chap going on the long course at kinloss, nobody has heard of anybody else who has been offered the chance to come back from a job outside of their brevet (Ops Spt) or from civvy street.

A few Q's for you

1. As a whole are we as Eng's over or undermnanned? If so where?
2. Who gives a damn either way?
3. Who, if anybody, can do somethkng about it.
4. Whats being done about it?

[The Gorilla]

Cheesy

1. Yes and No.
2. Absolutely no one.
3. See 2.
4. Nothing.

If the ex FS Air Eng now Ops support is who I think it is, he has been trying since day 31 at Cranwell to achieve it! Ex C130 ex FS inst AAITC? But surely he must be a Sqn Ldr by now or possibly even a Wg Cdr yes? That is what they were all promised 10 short years ago! Surely?
:}:}:}

[hollysgrandad]

Just joined up to this site, via a friend, and very amused to read about the mess the RAF is in regarding flight engineers. I started flying as air eng. on Argosy circa 1966for 5 yrs. then 5yrs on VC10 at BZN. Left to join GF, 1yr VC10 then 12 yrs Tristar. By now you will realise I am no spring chicken, but would love to get back flying. Where do I sign???

[ElTenEng]

GRINST - not completely correct. As far as I know most Tri* air engs are "currently fit/ healthy", about 15% uff/unavailable for op tasking. Little operational effect, if any, as the rest just work harder ;).

[isaneng]

I've seen the Tri* engs, not sure I'd call any of them fit or healthy...... 'Cup of tea with that pie?'...........

[cheesedoff]

At least we can all smile when the turd from PMA is out of his job (and back amongst his fellow crewman) and the new incumbant find that the said person has left him a marrow to sit on........Ouch

Apologies, you are absolutely right, this is not the place for that. Thanks for the wake up call!

[SaddamsLoveChild]

I am aware that 2 x Ex ALM recently returned to ALM Branch from Ops Spt, who were going to resign commissions anyway to return to their previous ranks as ALM Crewmen. They are now both Cman leaders and doing well. Needs must and all that. Some in the branch winged about backdoor commissions but they are/were the ones who generally winge about everything anyway.

Cant see why if the Eng Branch is in such a state that this is not the way forward. I expect the Ops Spt branch would gladly let some of the Eng's back to you without much of a fight.

Hoops stress - ever thought that the Manpower strategy people might be strangling the chap you called a t*sser. There is more to ACOS manning than just one bloke who wants to say yes.:=

Cheesed off - you obviously have a vested interest in this, but why call the guy a turd, grow up chap.

[Equilibrium]

I agree that the lack of planning goes hand in hand with the careers dept at PMA, but why oh why do all these changes have to happen with such little forethought.:ugh::ugh::ugh:
How many more times will we see a trade or Sqn section 'dick*d' to provide an escape for these buffoons who cant plan ahead.:{

[Down-the-Corridor]

I know that I come in late to this thread mainly because I am too busy working to post threads But let me point out a few facts as this is my personel situation

Left just before the Twin Towers fell ( Bad Timing)
Had 2 good jobs to go to, Was promptly dropped like a hot potato
Spent 18 months finding any work that would pay the bills.
Phoned the then Desk Officer and begged to come back ( I left on very good terms Good Cat Top Job ect ect ) Was told I was good guy but No way Hosay NO Jobs
Phoned 2--3 times same reply, even applyed in writing to Cranditz
Have rattled the cage a few times same old story
Punch Line I am still flying on a civvi Licence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So as to recalls I would say No Chance
And for all you out there that moan and groan Life out side is no better
The HR manager told me when I asked about the future of the Arline
3, Yes 3 months that is the Future of XYZ Airlines!
What I would now do for a guaranteed job untill I was 55
Would then not have to keep the standby job going
Want to know more please write.

[14greens]

interested in yr comment grinst
Obviously you have good knowledge of the Tri* manning

Just to put the record straight, 1 long term sick due to ski accident awaiting NHS!!!, 1 with back problems awaiting NHS, another 2 that are now back flying both with back problems that got them both off the Nimrod fleet and 1 guy that is a bit limited in theatres due to an ongoing problem
How that is the whole of the A eng cadre i dont know
I know of no task that has been cancelled due to lack of an available A Eng, yep guys have had to work quite hard to cover and god forbid the trainers have been doing a lot of flying
BUT
its swings and roundabouts which section is the most limiting with manpower
have a look at how many pilots are off to the civvie world still
as everybody in the RAF we are overstretched and thats in all the sections and not just aircrew
as an aside 50-60 hrs a month is the normal for mostTri* crew

[isaneng]

It was asked earlier, how PMA were still finding people to post to BZN etc, when nearly all fleets are undermanned (on paperwork, anyway). 14 Greens assertion of 50-60 hrs a month for Tri* guys is, I suspect, way above the average for other fleets (poss not VC10?), so surely PMA are just being sensible in matching manpower to tasking requirements. I cannot remember the last time that a manning review was undertaken, particularly one that was relevant to aircraft availability and tasking, rather than planned fleet size. The current PMA poster is an old colleague, and as has been pointed out to some of the more disgruntled participants, he cannot make everyone happy, and has to implement policy rather than preference! I suspect that their job is only going to get harder, as more guys take their option points, and wonder if the Nimrod BOI public perception of the state of our ageing aircraft will mean more personal pressure to leave?

[14greens]

There has been an attempt to increase the crew ratio on the tri jet over the last few years
Trust me
A Eng manning has not been the problem with achieving the required figures

For the line guys 50 hrs a month average has been the norm for at least the last 10 years, its not a whinge just a comment
Not rrying to make an excuses and not trying to say we are doing more than everybody else

[Sand4Gold]

Air Engs -
I am aware that 2 x Ex ALM recently returned to ALM Branch from Ops Spt, who were going to resign commissions anyway to return to their previous ranks as ALM Crewmen. They are now both Cman leaders and doing well. Needs must and all that. Some in the branch winged about backdoor commissions but they are/were the ones who generally winge about everything anyway.


SLC raises an interesting point. Are current RAF manning policies driven by market forces? Many a foreign air force use technicians - qualified on type - to be air engineers. Circa 180hrs (systems) groundschool (CBT could be an option here for the RAF), followed by approximately 50hrs on-the-job training by a qualified AEI.

The RAF could employ cpl/sgt technicians on this basis until the need for AEs was no longer required. No requirement for them to have a brevet; as long as they were medically fit and were suitably remunerated.

I suspect there would be some AEs that would winge at this idea, but as SADDAMSLOVECHILD points out, they are the ones who would generally winge about everything anyway.

[FE Hoppy]

AA
Perhaps you could show a few cooks around the hanger and give em a spanner to cure the shortage of techies too !!
14greens it's not impossible to take a short break and get back in is it? Guess you just have to be good enough. ;-)

as for 50-60 hrs a month......... Lightweights

[Clear Right,Px Good!]

FE Hoppy, Like your point:

Perhaps you could show a few cooks around the hanger and give em a spanner to cure the shortage of techies too !!

No need to give them a spanner though, as long as they were medically fit and suitably renumerated.

Priceless!

CRPx Good!

[FE Hoppy]

No need to give them a spanner though, as long as they were medically fit and suitably renumerated.


nice one centurion, like it, like it.

[14greens]

Hoppy
as well you know
we have a guy that did 12 months with DHL as well and came back PMA did manage to screw him though!

[ExRAFAC]

I've just found this thread. I am the ex FS, ex GST AAITC inst, ex C130 & Nimrod Air Eng who went Flt Ops long time ago now. I'm also the chap who was promised the earth on commissioning and (naively) believed the hype. Now I'm just glad to be going back to a real job.

No, I've not been promised PAS. As of today, I still do not have any firm (ie written) promises about terms of service. I have no idea where I'll be in terms of flying pay etc. But as I've been trying to get back to flying since before IOT (not day 31 as stated earlier) I'm happy to be back.

According to the chats I've had with PMA, its Kinloss that's hurting and that's where I'm heading. I have no qualms about flying the Nimrod - more than 3000hrs under my belt on that type and loved every second.

[ExRAFAC]

Mileandahalf (post #46, p3);

The chap you are referring to about emasculating the Air Eng branch is now head honcho of the DSCom/DTMA/Whateverthey'reCallingThemselvesThisWeek Airlift Charter empire. Wears three rings, has forgotten he was an Air Eng and not one of those rings is as big as the one in his nether regions!

[The Gorilla]

EXRAFAC

I am sure the guys will welcome you back!! Hope life goes well for you and I don't think you were naive.
Regards
TG

[fergineer]

Cheesy, any news on your search for the truth out there. Sitting here in the sun listening to the fishermen catching their Yellow Fin tuna on a glorious day here in the Bay of Plenty NZ. Am I thinking of flying again no chance.
Good luck
Fergi

[OmegaV6]

As the senior officer cadre of the trade still includes the gentleman (?) who made the famous (fatuous ?) comment .. "..there will never be a shortage of Air Engineers, if any wish to leave they can.. I'll sign their papers now.." and 6 months later we started to train the first of the Australian FTRS Air Engineers......

I have no doubt in my mind that the idea of filling all type vacancies by posting Hercules Air Engineers onwards, and replacing with FTRS from the wider world has probably been discused at high level on the grounds "it worked once why should it not work again ?"

Methinks they underestimate the reaction that might take place should that line be followed, they were out of touch with the rank & file then, and things have not improved.

I wonder how big the PVR queue would become if they tried that again ....