Ian Smith, RAF Pilot & Prime Minister

[snapper41]

Whatever you may think of him, he led a full life:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/21/db2101.xml

[walter kennedy]

I had the priviledge of living in his lovely country for a couple of years in the mid seventies and I had the greatest of respect for him.
The armed forces of that country fought the terrorists long and hard with limited equipment to keep their nation functioning and in the hands of its people - as opposed to the chaos of so many 3rd world states where the only beneficiaries are the multi-nationals who loot the resources without putting anything back to the people.

Let us not forget that, per capita, Rhodesia contributed more fighting men in WW2 than the UK itself, and of course Mr Smith was a pilot himself - a little bit of payback would have been nice.
The people of Rhodesia that I knew were more British than the contemporary British - a comparison I make with the people of NI, who we also let down.

[Jackonicko]

Walter,
While the white Rhodesians were more liberal, moderate and temperate than the contemporary South Africa, Rhodesia as was was founded on denying suffrage and many basic rights to a huge slice of the population based on racial grounds.

You might feel (as I do) that Smith's Rhodesia was preferable to Mugabe's Zimbabwe, and that even without the vote, the ordinary black Rhodesian was rather better off.

You may (like me) have some sympathy with the old white Rhodesian catch phrase: - "We made Rhodesia Great, they made Zimbabwe Ruins."

We may have let down a small majority of Rhodesians by leaving Rhodesia to its inevitable fate.

But had we supported and recognised the Smith regime, we'd have been letting down the majority of Rhodesians (the black and coloured population).
After all, what Smith opposed was: "unimpeded progress to majority rule, immediate improvement in the political status of the black population and progress towards ending discrimination."

He even opposed the Home proposal based on one-man-one-vote, but limited to Rhodesians with certain property and educational qualifications - which effectively gave very limited African representation.

Smith had many opportunities to reach a settlement that would have legitimised white minority rule for decades, and that might have provided a steady and peaceful route to real democracy. His intransigence was thus damaging and harmful.

The real tragedy, surely, is that we failed to ensure a smooth transition to a more moderate African leadership.

The comparison with Ulster is unhelpful - the Loyalist community was the majority in the North, and we had a direct duty to them.

[petermcleland]

I met him in Rhodesia in 1977 when the war was raging. I have always admired him and felt that he was the only politician who always spoke his mind and stuck to what he really believed. I regard him as a truthful man and feel that we British did indeed betray him. I feel ashamed of the way he and his wonderful country were treated and eventually destroyed by the machinations of the British Governments. We handed Rhodesia to Mugabe and Nkomo on a plate and now we are surprised at the result of giving a colony to terrorist thugs.

Well Smithy has gone to a more peaceful place now and I will always feel that he was a great man. What a pity we don't have more like him :D

[effortless]

I too met him and he was charming to me and my then wife. This said, if he hadn't declared UDI, he may have been part of a moderate government of the black majority. In my experience, conflict always allows the ****e to rise to the surface.

[MrBernoulli]

Just so you know folks, a much larger thread running in Jetblast (???????):

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3718956#post3718956

[Samuel]

During my time in ANZUK, [1974-76], the fledgling Singapore Air Force did its flying training at Changi using mainly ex-pat instructors from the RAF, RNZAF, and RAAF, and they tended to congregate in the mess at Changi. They were all sort of 40-ish Flt Lts with lots of hours.

There were some very interesting characters among them, as can be imagined, and I recall at least one who was on the Javelin detachment sent down to contain the Royal Rhodesian Air Force, as was. As the latter had Hunters at the time, it would have been an interesting if one-sided exchange, but it was never going to happen of course because so many of the RRAF pilots were ex_RAF.

I had it on good authority that both Javelin and Rhodesian pilots met in a pub on more than one occasion, and sorted out Rules of Engagement which largely centered on missed opportunities!

[parabellum]

That same Javelin Sqn, (I had a friend in it too), actually crossed the border on a day off and sent postcards back to Number 10 with the Rhodesian stamp on as well as nice pictures of a prosperous country.
I believe the Sqn were ordered not to cross the border again unless ordered to do so!

[Union Jack]

A Rhodesian friend who was serving in an RN frigate asked his Captain on his first day on watch on Beira Patrol to be relieved of his duties for the duration in order to avoid any conflict of interest. He was very tersely, but colourfully, ordered to get back on the bridge.

Subsequently, in the first mail drop by one of the Majunga Shackletons, the same officer received enough Rhodesian petrol coupons to cover 2000 miles per month for his next leave .....

Jack

[chinny]

Jackonicko-like so many self taught experts you are completely wrong on Rhodesia and Northern Ireland.Where did you get your knowledge-a newspaper or 2-maybe watching the Beeb!!!!?

Both great people and countries.What not a lot of people like you dont know is that 80 odd % of the Rhodesian Security Forces were black!!!!!!- and before you go there they were not conscripted!

Smith did what a lot of people who sit in arm chairs can only dream of.He got off his arse and fought for what he and the majority of Rhodesians believed in-black and white-if Wilson hadn't been such an arse and interfered in what he and most British didn't know diddly squat about, then hundreds of thousands would not have died!!

My Grandfather was a Member of Parliment in Smith's government-something I'm extremely proud and of and having met the Great Man himself,

I'm Proud to be a Rhodesian.
RIP.

VTSP
chinny

[D-IFF_ident]

Can we say 'black' or 'coloured'? Should it not be 'African Africans'? :}

[Jackonicko]

Chinny,

Completely wrong, eh?

How exactly?

The only 'fact' I quoted on NI was that the Loyalist Community was the majority in the North. I believe that's still the case, despite demographic trends. I expressed the opinion that as citizens of the UK we had a direct responsibility to them.

As to Rhodesia, I expressed some sympathy with the position of the whites, and the belief that the black majority were better off under white rule than under Mugabe. As a Rhodesian I'd expect you to understand the Great Rhodesia/Zimbabwe Ruins allusion, too.

I was hardly suggesting that either country or either people (NI and white Rhodesian) weren't great and admirable.

Nor do I need any lessons as to the racial make up of the Rhodesian Armed Forces, from the Selous Scouts to the RRAF, and I'd agree that Smith ruled with the consent of a large portion of the black populace, though your contention that Smith fought for what the majority ("black and white") wanted is a bit flimsy.

And I'm not a great admirer of Smith. He had undeniable courage, and leadership, but little wisdom. The jury's still out on whether he was a 'man of morals' (and on his 'morales', whatever they were). Had he played a smarter game, Rhodesia might have been the only country in sub-Saharan Africa to enjoy a peaceful and gradual transition to democracy, the whites might still have had real influence there, and we might have been spared Mugabe's tyranny.

As the Telegraph obit points out: "The final result of UDI was that the white Rhodesians were landed with a deal that removed all traces of their political influence and, after the country's first democratic elections held in 1980, brought about the one thing Smith had promised them they would never have - a black Marxist government run by the man they most abhorred, Mugabe."

The Telegraph is hardly a leftist rag, and it's starting point is NOT that black majority rule was a good thing. It's interesting that its article on Smith ('Man whose folly unleashed Mugabe') concluded that: "Thanks to Smith, white Rhodesia dealt with its most dangerous enemy at the moment when its hand was weakest. The outcome was a transfer of power to independent Zimbabwe in 1980 on terms far worse for the white minority than could have been achieved before UDI.

Far from preserving what Smith called "decent, responsible, Christian standards", UDI was the making of Mugabe.

Without Smith’s folly, Mugabe may never have come to power. It is impossible to avoid the verdict that Smith was the co-author of Zimbabwe’s tragedy.

I would agree that Wilson mishandled the crisis, but to blame him, rather than Smith, for the war is patently silly.

I pointed out specific instances where Smith's intransigence led him to reject compromise solutions that would have entailed a VERY gradual shift to majority rule, and that would have maintained and even entrenched white privilege, instead taking a course of action that INEVITABLY led to catastrophe for the whites. And that was no-one's fault but his own.

Smith has always been keen to claim that the Brits and the South Africans 'betrayed him' and has never acknowledged that his own poor judgement and intransigence was at least as much to blame.

[Zoom]

An ex-Javelin nav showed me a photo of his billet in Ndola, Zambia during the blockade. It turned out to be the school I attended when my pongo Dad was seconded to the Northern Rhodesia Regiment in the 50s.

[Two's in]

Only the Brits could think that being charming and a pilot to be mutually exclusive qualities of a self-proclaimed racist. Jacko merely sharpens our nostalgic recollections of empire lost with some unfortunate truths.

[Basil]

Jacko,
I read three articles (inc the obit) in the Telegraph and I'd suggest that the one to which you refer was included to demonstrate editorial even handedness.
Africa was up for grabs. If my history recollections are correct, Southern Africa was being taken over with extreme cruelty and violence by Shaka Zulu as the Europeans arrived. There's always a ruling tribe and if it happens to be European so what?
I admired Smith for standing up to his opponents worldwide but, unfortunately, money and influence talked. Mugabe started off quite canny but, as he gained experience and confidence, things degenerated to the present day.
If Wilson had ever decided to try to go in hard against Smith, our PM may well have faced firm resistance from the British armed forces. Thankfully it never came to that.
I also heard rumours of fraternisation by the Jav sqn so Harold was wise to take a soft approach.

[RETDPI]

I recall being shown a lovely shot of RAF Javelins and Rhodesian Air Force Hunters in a mixed formation flying up the border with Zambia. Not really surprising as the crews had all been drinking together the night before.

[NRU74]

Anyone remember the RAF detachment HQ in Lusaka ?
It was in a former fairground or similar establishment- a few rats and snakes present !
The Officers' Mess bar was in a wooden hut with an extant 'Save the Spastics' sign outside.
Over the bar was the motto 'Give us the job and we'll finish the tools'.
Remember Arthur Bottomley [I think he was the Colonial Secretary at the time] who famously stated in part of his arrival speech ' the Gambians [sic] are such noble creatures'
Happy Days

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Know of a Javelin driver who joined the RhAF. Did any of the group based in Zambia do that?

The Ndola Yacht Club was a great spot for a beer when I was last there. If you balanced on the balcony rail and craned your neck, you could see the stagnant pool of water surrounded by reeds that was all that was left of the lake.

[The Claw]

Jackonicko,

You make me laugh! Clearly you have no clue.

You mean like the same fair deal that us Europeans got in Zambia when we played your game!? I can see we are still entrenched in Zambia, far better than we ever had it in Northern Rhodesia???:yuk:

If it wasn't for Ian Smith we would have been kicked out long ago, and none of your dream world would have changed anything, history has proven that.

[Jackonicko]

We sold Zambia down the river with NONE of the constitutional safeguards that were Smith's for the asking, and as a result they went straight to Kaunda without passing go.

[The Claw]

'Nuff said :rolleyes: