South African Black Pilots

[BALEWA]

So what was it like to be black and a pilot during the apartheid regime in South Africa.

Did black pilots exist during that era, could you train to be a pilot in SA, if they did were they offered jobs in the airlines and if they were offered jobs, how were they treated by their fellow white colleagues?

Are their a good number of black pilots flying in SAA?

It would be interesting to get some response here after observing the current situation in SAA and the views and opinions of so many of the lads flying in SAA.

Here in Nigeria the issue of being black and a pilot has never been an issue, as far as I know Nigerian pilots have been flying for sometime now, even during the fifties we had guys sent to the UK for flight training et al and have kept that image going till today.

Thanks

B

[Sir Osis of the river]

Ok, I'll take the bait.....

Might as well ask what's it like being a white pilot in Saa in the post apartheid anti white era?

I can only hope the moderators bin this thread, it serves no constructive purpose and is obviously here only to get a rise out of some people. (It succeeded with me!)

Enough of this racism. This is a pilot forum. not a third-world newspaper front page.

[hotmj43]

Balewa,
I beg let that one go.....IT IS ALL OVER.Whats the point:=

[BALEWA]

Sir Osis of the river, yes "black Pilots" whats racist about that !!! I am a black man and can be called a black pilot whats the big deal.

Are you saying their are no black pilots in SA!!!


'Quoting you'
"I can only hope the moderators bin this thread, it serves no constructive purpose and is obviously here only to get a rise out of some people. (It succeeded with me!)"

and again
"Enough of this racism. This is a pilot forum. not a third-world newspaper front page."

And what bait :rolleyes:

I believe that is your personal opinion Sir, and to instigate that this thread should be binned is outright wrong. If you have a positive contribution to make here then go ahead if not then you know what.

Thanks

Hotmj43 believe me there is a point and nothing wrong in asking, just have a look at the post on the SAA threads! Someone had to, and I did.

[boypilot]

Balewa, I'm not old enough to know what happened in the 1950's, nor does it really concern me today. History was boring at high school and still is today!

Please just bear the following in mind thou. Since 1994, South Africa has been run by the ANC. In theory, this has given any wannbe "African" pilot 13 years to get a licence and get a job at SAA. PDI's have been given plenty of opportunities in South Africa and SAA since 1994. How they have used or misused those opportunities is up to the individual.

Currently, there are a few black pilots flying at SAA, as are there Ladies, Indians, Muslims, Jews, Vegetarians and Gays. Get my drift?! If you want an exact number, then write a letter to SAA's HR department.

Problem with your post is, what relevance does this information have to you? Why don't you rather tell us about how you got into aviation and maybe someone can learn from your experiences. Right now, your post is just pointing a big finger south! :ok:

[saywhat]

So what was it like to be black and a pilot during the apartheid regime in South Africa.
I don't know.
Did black pilots exist during that era
Yes - one is now a captain at SAA.
could you train to be a pilot in SA, if they did were they offered jobs in the airlines and if they were offered jobs, how were they treated by their fellow white colleagues?
Yes, but I'm positive it was difficult. SAA definitely did not offer black pilots jobs until apartheid was ending.
It would be interesting to get some response here after observing the current situation in SAA and the views and opinions of so many of the lads flying in SAA.
I'm not sure what situation you are talking of, however, what you read on PPrune and what actually happens in SAA are two vastly different things. At least 90% of the rubbish you read here, is made up by people who have an axe to grind. The people that I work with, black and white, go to work, get the job done and go home. It's much like any other company.
Here in Nigeria the issue of being black and a pilot has never been an issue
I'm glad for you. Here on the other hand, we are trying to recover from a very oppressive former government. Personally, I think SA is doing exceptionally well. This is a view that many, many of your countrymen seem to share, as it seems that they prefer to live here rather than there. Perhaps you can explain to some of the illegal emigrants here how rosy it is back home.
Thanks
Your welcome.
I have no doubt that you as a black pilot are tired of listening to drivel on this forum, but I can tell you that so am I.:ugh:

[BALEWA]

saywhat, what can I say :ok:

Thankyou, beers on me if ever in lagos and if u have time will fire up the barbecue so we can discuss at lenght. Sure is interesting times at SAA.

Balewa

[TurnAroundWingsLevel]

Pointless!!!

[Afriviation]

BALEWA

Black Pilot? Impossible!! That is the likely response in SA prior to 1994. The 1st black commercial pilots joines SAA around 1994. Three of them are now Captains with SAA. There is around 80 (Out of approx 3000 total pilots) active black pilots in South Africa today. Most of them with SAA, the national carrier thanks to the Airline sponsored Cadet Pilot Scheme. Elsewhere in the industry you will battle to see any black faces around. With the woes SAA is going through at the moment, It is highly unlikely that the situation will improve any time soon.

The Airforce is making significant progress in training black pilots. They even have a black female pilot flying their Falcon and BBJ. I'm not sure of the numbers there.

So my brother the picture is looking very gloomy. Black South Africans have politically freedom however economically and professionally "Die Baas" is still in charge.

This is a topic most of this forum members and it's moderators feel very uncomfortable about so be warned. Perhaps they can't handle the truth, there's a ton of bricks coming your way and probably my way too.

[nugpot]

Most of them with SAA, the national carrier thanks to the Airline sponsored Cadet Pilot Scheme.

Most of them with SAA, the national carrier thanks SAA shamelessly poaching them from the companies that gave them their break in Aviation. If you are from a PD group, you don't even have to apply to SAA. They phone you..........

I hear the cadets at some of the feeders are trying to avoid going to SAA. Must be because the other airlines treat them so badly and make them feel inferior.

[Trawler]

Here in Nigeria the issue of being black and a pilot has never been an issue

Didn't the pilots at Arik Air had a gripe with a white pilot and made the statement here on pprune that he must look over his shoulder for "Jungle justice will take him out"?

[Soap Box Cowboy]

Race has :mad: to do with being a good pilot or not. Education and mental mind set are the keys here. I have the privledge to work with some truely skilled African Pilots.

The source of this can be traced through what Africans have had to go through in order to get to the left seat. When you are brought up in either a system that has dummed you down due to educational opertunities or a system where being in command and making those decisions has been suppresed for sure you will have a less than stisfactory pilot.

Now add extra factors such as personality, I have flown with and done training with pilots of various races who either excelled at being a hands on pilot ready to make those decisions and those who are not worthy of being anything more than co-pilots.

No race is superior, yes background and eduction are the telling factor but just because your white does not mean you are a better pilot you might just have had better opertunities.

As far as I'm concerned in the cockpit we are all equal, white, black, male female. You got to prove your skills. Which is why I hate actually loath any sort of "Positive discrimination" Yes you will get more of your previously disadvantaged Brethern in but you will be short changing on the skills.

To hell with race or creed. I want crews to be chosen on their skills and if you got a problem with Sex or Race, get out of the aviation Industry we don't need you, we need Aviators. People who love flying for the sake of flying not as a prestige postion or just because it's cool.

Actually take race out of everything I've seen it used and manipulated too much for me to have any respect for it. Let us have respect for the unifirm and what it stands for and not soil it as some party political mouth piece.

[Trawler]

Well said, unfortunately not everybody wants to see it in that light.

[Jamex]

Should I take the bait?.......Naaa....why bother. No good ever came from trying to reason with a closed mind.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ouch:

[Sir Osis of the river]

Balewa,

Yes, I reiterate, you are racist. Why differentiate Black pilots from white pilots?

I don't feel the need to go around proclaiming I am a white pilot, or a female pilot or a purple-spotted lesbian pilot from Outer Patergonia??

I am pilot, fullstop. I fly airplanes for a living. Maybe you do to, or are you a journalist looking for a story??

I have flown, and still do, with people of all colour, gender, race and creed.( When last did you fly with a "white pilot" in Nigeria. Not recenly I would guess). When we sign on at ops, it's a handshake, hello, nice to meet you and which leg would you like to fly? NOT, Oh My G@d, You're black!

Wake up or shut up.:ugh:

[birdlady]

Soap Box,

Could not have said it better myself..........:D:D:D

(the twaddle one has to read on this issue and you sum it up perfectly)

[BALEWA]

No Sir not on this flightdeck, none of that on this side of the motherland, you Sir you wake up or shut up, Captain.

Its folks like you who make it quite clear that SAA is still very much a Black and White airline!

"from a PM"
'but please dont quote me directly,but it is good that some of this gets out,on the African Forum....and i guess around the world others peep in.But this is known,during the dark days of Apt the rest of the world was trading with SA, the reality!!!'

"from Afriviation"
'This is a topic most of this forum members and it's moderators feel very uncomfortable about so be warned. Perhaps they can't handle the truth, there's a ton of bricks coming your way and probably my way too. '

What a shame!

[BALEWA]

And by the way, I do know how to swimm!

[TurnAroundWingsLevel]

I said it....pointless!!!!

Balewa, what was the point of starting this thread? Just to start unnecessary "racial" arguments:confused:. Nothing more educative to write about??? Are you trying to tell us that SA is still racist and Nigeria isn't....and then what??? We continue arguing endlessly about it.

I thought this kind of threads are not allowed here....It can never, and will never bring educative or good results. We are all here to learn from each other's experiences and to broaden our general knowledge and understanding from the postings of the others with their different backgrounds and cultures, not to start provocative arguments that lead nowhere.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Where are the Moderators and their axes??? The direction this thread is heading to isn't too good.

[C4]

http://innerslacker.com/images/argue091204.jpg

[bianchi]

''Where are the Moderators and their axes???''

I have ask this question before....and got a''let's see where this go'' as a answer:ugh:.....pretty sad as we are getting nowhere with this these type of topics(threads).

[surely not]

Ok I have trawled through this thread and I fail to understand the offence that has been taken to it.

I thought the questions were interesting and the answers back on here have, with a couple of notable exceptions, failed to answer them, instead preferring to take the thread off onto a tangent of racism.

The questions weren't difficult, yet the intelligentsia on here chose not to read them closely and to answer something that wasn't asked. You must have a different agenda to BALEWA boys.

To have the knowledge to understand the current situation and to gauge whether it has improved since 1994 or not it is necessary to know what the situation was before 1994.

[LongJohnThomas]

Sn,
Brilliantly said mate.
Could'nt agree more!! :D
Common sense is'nt quite common!!!!!!:ok:

[bman0429]

I certainly agree with you surely not.

The original post asked a few questions. None of them geared to offend anyone.

I actually continued reading, because I thought people who were there might have some intelligent answers. Its always good to get things from the perspective of people involved.

It is unbelievable how venomous the vitrol in this forum on the issue of race. Although it isn't surprising.

Balewa I hope you've gotten or get the answers that you are looking for. I'd like to see an intelligent discussion about it also.

To those who question if race matters check your reaction to the origin of this thread.

For the moderator I suppose its okay to make offensive remarks about gays and the mentally handicapped?! Classy!! I'm sure their black jokes are absolutely hillarious.

[Afriviation]

Balewa This is a message i got from one of the threads I posted on relating to Comair not employing black people

You are currently banned from this thread.
Reason given for this ban:

Go away and do some research for a few days. The swimming is just one tiny bit that the press leapt on. There many other complaints. You look stupid for not mentioning any of them. You aren't stupid. Do the checking.

The ban is in effect until: 24th November 2007, ~07:00

I had previously been banned for 6 months in pprune

I have seen so many posts in these forums which are far from any factual basis. Don't think those people were ever banned rightly so, this is a rumour network. In these forums the issue of lack of transformation in SA Aviation is a taboo topic. Kinda reminds me when the political movements were banned in South Africa when they challenged apartheid. So you see it's still alive in SA Aviation.

[nugpot]

I have seen so many posts in these forums which are far from any factual basis. Don't think those people were ever banned rightly so, this is a rumour network. In these forums the issue of lack of transformation in SA Aviation is a taboo topic. Kinda reminds me when the political movements were banned in South Africa when they challenged apartheid. So you see it's still alive in SA Aviation.

Afrivation, you seem to be more stupid that the moderators give you credit for. This is a UK site and this specific forum is moderated by a Brit. If you think you are censored for challenging SA Aviation and its perceived prejudices, you are obviously also deficient in the common sense department.

[Oom Kaspaas]

I cant believe how many south Africans fell for this thread. As far as Afriviation goes, I think the K factor is involved with his comments

[hotmj43]

Balewa,
i told you so,when it comes to Colour,( Black.)..guys just loose it and go off on unchartered cross countries.......the facts are known you just asked what is the present situation.....difficult,with the mind set that has come out of SA,in this day and age. Make we leave our Cousins i beg:ugh: HARD.

[ZAZOO]

"QUOTE"
'I cant believe how many south Africans fell for this thread.'

Well could you elaborate more than the SA who as you said fell for this thread, whats so unbelievable than what we have seen posted here.

Regarding the offensive remarks about gays and the mentally handicapped, I believe the moderators will act soon ;) and like someone rightly said I'm sure their black jokes would be absolutely hillarious.

To all those calling on the moderators to axe this thread I say why, what are we trying to hide or cover up, BALEWA asked a simple and now very interesting questions.

Believe it or not, Race and Culture are very important issues in the aviation industry nowadays, especially as it concerns crewing, most airlines in the world today have and enjoy the fact of having a multiracial and multicoloured efficient crew, and will ask you during their interviews if you have a problem working in this environment

It is scary to know that we still have a lot of people out there who would answer a "No I do not have a problem with that" get the job, and get away with it, but still show up here on pprune teeth gnashing and clawing away!

I sincerely hope the airlines are watching this page might just learn a few things here.

The moderators know their duty to all here on pprune, been here long enough to know that, all they have to do here is moderate and balance the thread, looks like we are in for the long haul this time around.

I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread.

[rumline]

Only the militant small 'l' liberal politically correct would take offence to this discussion.
Like it or not, culture and race are intertwined with aviation in Africa.
Argueing that a thread like this is 'baiting' or offensive in anyway only shows how far your head is buried in the sand.
The reality of South Africa is that race is playing a MAJOR role in aviation..particularily in who's getting their foot in the door and who knows not to bother even applying...
Thats the just the way it is....
Deal with it

[Oyindo]

A few brothers got into the flying buck a couple of years ago under the affirmative action, 2 have been bucked out, one grounded and one still holding on for dear life. It seems they did not stand a chance right from the beginning. Life must have been hell for them. Keep your chin up guys.

[nugpot]

2 have been bucked out, one grounded and one still holding on for dear life. It seems they did not stand a chance right from the beginning. Life must have been hell for them.

Do you for one moment think that SAA management would allow the "royal game" to be fired?

They had every possible chance right from the beginning to paraphrase your words. For them to be out the system means that they were beyond all attempts at remedial action/training.

Don't bluff yourself that anti-black racism at SAA will succeed in getting rid of a "brother". If a "brother" is fired at SAA, it will be despite every possible attempt of management to keep him there, and probably just indicates his relative ability or lack thereof.

The cadets coming through the system (and I have flown with several of them) tell me that they are treated with respect by all their colleagues and most of them are using the opportunity to its fullest extent.

[maxrated]

Can anyone please provide an intelligent answer to the original question posted, I cant understand how so many people could take offence to this.

Secondly, and out of academic interest alone, does anyone know if any black people were legally alowed to hold pilots licences under the old sa government apt policy ?

Additionally, what happend to the many black pilots trained up to fly in the Homeland airforces of the, Transkei, Bop, Ciskei and Venda ? Did any of those guys go Civvie after 94 ?

Advance apologies if these questions cause offence to some.

[Oyindo]

"Do you for one moment think that management would allow the "royal game" to be fired?"

Maybe YES, look at the state of the airline today. Maybe No. Your guess will be as good as mine.

Affirmative action isn’t very popular in SA and in flying buck airways too. I have witnessed now aggrieved some of the buck personnel are, now that the shoe is on the other foot.

It is possible to intimidated and break the confidence of anyone (competent or not), if the powers that weald the pen decide too. I just hope the royal game was given every chance; if they weren’t that would have been a great injustice and a shame to all concerned.

I rest my case.

[kuntakinte]

Father/Mother Time is great at levelling the playing field...the white croc and smithie could not keep their bodies and abhorrent philosophies on Mother Earth forever..........the global village marches on.

[fluffyfan]

kuntakinte your lak of knowledge about Rhodesia and Zimbabwe is apparent, I would be interested in hearing how Smith and the Croc can be compared to eachother....if you display the lack of knowledge I think you might I will happily educate you.

Yes Smith has died, and his successor His Royal Exellency the honorable Robert Gabrial Mugage has been in power for 27 years now and managed to turn the jewel of Africa into a steaming pile of sh1t.

The Government is quick to blame companies about lack of compliance to the act, however where are the government programmes to train pilots, where are the houses that were promised, where is the law and order, where is the electricity....let me guess...Mismanaged, much like the rest of Africa....oh but we have managed to create a few black billionairs, nice one kuntakinte, let me let you in on a little piece of information.....on one of my regular trips to Zim I had a conversation with an elderly black gentleman, his words were "we never suffered like this in Rhodesia"....so yay Smith is Dead, hoooray Africa has triumphed, you kuntakinte deserve to be ruled by people like Mugabe

[Flying Binghi]

Quote - "could you train to be a pilot in SA"

Getting back to Balewa's original post, I would ask are there any black ultralight pilots/clubs in Africa. One thing I notice in Australia is the number of wanna be, current and former airline pilots in the ultralight scene.

[B737 lover]

That is a good one C4:D:D:D!

[chileno 777]

I am not South African, African, European, black or white/Caucasian. I am a Latin-American guy so pls take my post from a different point of view and perspective.
First of all I think the question that started the present thread is very interesting. I really would like to know how was the aviation in South Africa before 1994 mainly regarding with the black pilots. It is not a racist question is just a normal and think legitimate doubt.
Second: let’s make some things clear, apartheid was a brutal regimen that systematically violated the human rights and people who did not belong to the Caucasian race did not have the minimum rights and privileges that whites had. Fortunately that regimen is over and South Africans (all races) have shown to the rest of the world a proof of maturity going thorough a peaceful political transition.
Third: From my perspective the black empowerment/positive affirmation never should have been applied to the labor sector. If you want to have a growing economy/country only the most skilled people must be hired. Does not matter if they are white, black, woman, gay, lesbian ...Nevertheless the positive actions can be applied in other areas such as education, health, loans, etc.
Fourth: This is for South Africans guys. .Pls stop been so negative…You are a very friendly people, (blacks and whites) you have a great country, and with a huge potential,. I really hope that someday you can close the bad chapter of your history and start looking to the future with hope knowing that all of you belong to the same NATION.

Best Regards.

[rumline]

It maybe a little off-topic...or maybe not. I'm not south african...but spent a great deal of my flying career there,...and love it immensly.
To those who are quick to smack down aparthied...you must remember that the modern, liberal, democratic state that (with all it's problems as well) would have NEVER evolved if not for aparthied.
As brutal as it was..it allowed the development of an infrastructure that would of NEVER been in place had it not been minority rule.
RSA would of been no better than Congo, Angola, Equatorial Guinea, Nigeria, Cameroun, etc etc etc....
Sorry....just the way it is....but now that the old regime is over....lets hope the New South Africa doesn't go down the road of 'creeping Zimbabwism'

All right Okes...grab a mitt of biltong and let 'er fly!

[Sir Osis of the river]

Rumline, have to agree with you, RSA would have been no better than... But you left out Nigeria!

Chile 777,

There were a few black pilots in RSA pre 1994. They mainly flew for the "homeland" airlines. Transkei etc. ( Of course, even then, as In George Orwell's Animal Farm, some were more equal than others, and were a protected species. Try rostering a whole airline around one pilot who wont fly on Saturday because he is Seventh Day Adventist. Could not fire him because he was..... You guesssed it, a black man. True story, that is the way it was. even then! )

What happened to these guys, I have no idea. They were good guys to work with anyway. Maybe they will pop up here and let us know what they are up to?

Hope that helps answer the question anyway.

[rumline]

Actually Nigeria was in the list....but probobly should of been in a special place of prominence

[Engine Noise]

this thread is now 3 pages long and nobody has answered a simple question:confused:

[Knormoer]

[QUOTE]Third: From my perspective the black empowerment/positive affirmation never should have been applied to the labor sector. If you want to have a growing economy/country only the most skilled people must be hired. Do not matter if they are white, black, woman, gay, lesbian ...Nevertheless the positive actions can be applied in other areas such as education, health, loans, etc. [QUOTE]

Well said Chileno 777! If a guy can do the job, let him have it, regardless of gender or race!

One thing that has always been very intersting to me in this world is that there can be organizations like the organization of black airline pilots in the states. Can you imagine the absolute anarchy that would follow if someone founded the organization of white airline pilots? Just a thought?

[Shrike200]

The point has been made: There's nothing inherently wrong with the original posters question. (Although I think the answer is very short.)

It's just that any thread that brings up race runs the risk of becoming incredibly polarised in a short space of time, and many people who've been around here for a while have little patience for seeing the same back-and-forth comments. I can pretty much guarantee that there are NO white pilots here who have a problem with the person sitting next to them as long as they made it there on a reasonable degree of merit, and don't jump up and down shouting 'racist!' when somebody so much as breathes in their direction. AA is a reality, we all know that, but don't make it into the next version of apartheid. Otherwise in 50 years time, we'll be asking the same question as the original poster, but just w.r.t. white pilots.

The lack of answers to the original question just shows that most of the pilots posting here were too young to have been involved in aviation during that time. Importantly, that also means they had nothing to do with apartheid either, despite now being penalised for it. Hence the 'vigorous' answers.

I'm sure we can all just remain calm, get the job done, and concentrate on doing our little part for the way forward.

[IR-Pirate]

The fact that SAA has the majority of pilots of "colour" is a simple case of supply and demand...if you can understand that. The less of an available resource, the more one needs to pay...hence more PD pilots will migrate to Airways because of the more attractive salaries.

AA is alive and well in every sphere of business in SA today, like it or not. "White" pilots in SA however, are marginally affected , as, when SAA require 100 pilots only 5 slots can be filled by appropriate AA candidates, so how in the world can a white pilot argue that his spot was taken by affirmative action, when there's 95 spots available to him?? that I find perplexing.

Also, the entire flight operations at SAA is still run by so called white males...whom, are in their current positions of power simply because they can do the job and have the ability to actually comprehend certain policies and principles of transformation (which is a swear word at BA Comair). The colour of their skin has nothing to do with it, only the fact that they are probably the best and most open-minded people in the SA aviation industry to do the required job.

This is why SAA will never close down...as much as certain people would love to see.

I have flown with many pilots of colour at SAA. Not one has a chip on his/her shoulder. Simply going about their day-to-day business like any other pilot here. Many are highly educated/qualified individuals (degrees etc) who deserve their place in the airline. Those who misinterpret the principles of AA simply undermine the quality of these individuals who find themselves in these positions, which is really unfair!

[saywhat]

This topic has now gone off track, so I will just help it along.

Affirmative Action is not a new economic uplifting tactic. It has been used by many in the past, most noticeably by the whites during the apartheid era. The SADF, SAR, TELKOM, ESKOM to name a few, were companies whose sole purpose was to uplift the Afrikaner nation. It was a policy that worked exceptionally well for some, but not very well for others. Unfortunately, by it's very nature, AA isolates some for the benefit of others. AA, does have a lifespan, however, it is generally longer than one generation. This does marginalise some during its course, however, if you are wise enough, you can live through it.

To answer the original question again, and perhaps a little more blatantly. There were precious few black pilots during the apartheid era. They had virtually no promotion opportunities, and were definitely not regarded as being equals.

Post apartheid has seen a dramatic increase in the numbers, however, far too few to supply the demand for AA. I would guess, in fact that most of the present black pilots in SA are only doing what they do, thanks to various sponsored routes. This has caused more animosity in the industry, as there are many other pilots out there that have paid for their own training, and battle to get flying jobs.

Are their a good number of black pilots flying in SAA?

Well that is relative.
Yes - The majority of black pilots in SA fly for SAA.
No - The number is nowhere near where it should be, due to the simple reason that there are very few black pilots. The number is increasing, but it will take a very long time to see the figures that the government would like.

beers on me if ever in lagos and if u have time will fire up the barbecue so we can discuss at lenght.

Thank you, I would like to take you up on that, however, it is my belief that talking will not solve anything, it is in the process of solving itself. Mother time has the answer, but she wont tell for a long while:)

[Oyindo]

Say what? Good post. Time will heal things hopefully

[nugpot]

OK, I'll take a stab at the original question.

Up to the end of the 1980's, pilots of colour were not eligible to join the South African Air Force (SAAF) or SAA. There were some pilots of colour trained in SAA (either private or for the homelands).

The SAAF and SAA opened up for the previously disadvantaged (PD's) in the beginning of the 90's and Affirmative Action was entrenched in law soon after 1994.

During the years of the ANC struggle, some pilots were trained in East Block countries to form the core of a post apartheid air force in SA. When democracy came in 1994, these guys ended up in positions of power in the armed forces and never really flew.

SAA (as national carrier) went on a drive to employ as many PD's as they could. This drained the country of all pilots of colour. At the same time the cadet program was started to enable PD's to get training and finally join SAA.

Currently, the bigger carriers in SA all try to employ PD's, but SAA, with bigger salaries make it impossible for the other airlines to keep their PD pilots. PD SAAF pilots are poached by SAA as soon as they can and the other airlines have no choice but to make up their EE complement in other areas.

I think the cadet program is up to course 14 or 15, which equates to about 150 cadets. Some of these were white guys and girls. Not all of them continued in the cockpit, so I'd guess about 100 non-white cadets remain in the system. Add to that about another 50 non-white ex-SAAF pilots and a handful of non-white pilots from other backgrounds and you have the total complement in SA civil aviation. Most of these pilots are with SAX and SAA.

The combined pilot complement of SAX and SAA is about 1000 pilots, so the percentage between these 2 airlines is probably around 10% non-white.

Although there are non-white pilots in SA from other countries, they are not eligible for employment at SAA. SAX does not have that barrier and will soon have its first black captain in about 7 years (the previous one left to SAA and then promptly disappeared).

As most will know, you don't train airline captains in a few months. It takes years just to get the right licenses and then even more years to get the right experience. This process is very expensive and not all airlines can afford it.

A further barrier to higher non-white cockpit numbers is the current South African economic arena. Those PD kids who have the abilities and perseverance to become good pilots (it is a crappy job and you have to love it to carry on doing it), can easily make more money by getting a share of the BEE pie outside aviation. On more than one occasion, I have spoken to a young black executive who told me that he almost became a pilot before he realised that he could go further and become richer if he channeled his energies into business.

The word has spread that there is lots of money out there for any intelligent PD person and that flying with its 0300 wake-ups and long periods away from home is not as romantic as everyone thought.

It is also noticeable that there are no PD pilots-to-be paying for their own training and then joining the ranks of contract pilots to build hours. It seems to be the case that if SAA doesn't pay, then flying is not important. I still see lots of white kids pay for their dreams by begging, borrowing and delivering pizzas.

[MAINTAINVERTICALSPD!]

It is also noticeable that there are no PD pilots-to-be paying for their own training and then joining the ranks of contract pilots to build hours. It seems to be the case that if SAA doesn't pay, then flying is not important. I still see lots of white kids pay for their dreams by begging, borrowing and delivering pizzas.

What a load of hogwash. :} You're making a generalization based on your unfortunate experiences with a minority of misinformed, initiative+passion-lacking individuals (found in all races).

IR-Pirate: couldn't have said it better! :ok:

[Oyindo]

Hear Hear. Nugpot – that’s a fair assessment of Aviation in SA both past and present.

Government and the SAA must be ready invest heavily in the PD to address the in balance instead of wasting precious airline’s funds carting around the top man in a helicopter because he can’t handle, that lovely slow morning commute to work every day and other wasteful ventures being dreamt up.

The presently advantaged (PA’s) will just have to accept, that this situation will be in the best interest of SA and SAA for now. It’s unfortunate that hard working white folks trying to qualify for those jobs too will also have to put up with it and many other policies.

If it take’s running twice the number of cadet courses to meet the AA requirements so be it. I have no idea what the situation is in the training schools in SA these days, at least I know there are spaces available, as some foreign student from West Africa are training there at the mo.

[nugpot]

I have no idea what the situation is in the training schools in SA these days, at least I know there are spaces available, as some foreign student from West Africa are training there at the mo.

I have met quite a few black pilots training in SA, but I have yet to meet one who is a SA citizen and not being sponsored.

[Jamex]

I was not going to get involved in this brawl but as emotions are clearly getting in the way of clear thinking here goes.
Firstly, very well summarised Nugpot:ok: I have been in aviation for more than twenty years. I have never met an SA born black pilot or student pilot who paid his own way. Please note, I'm not saying there are none, I'm simply saying I have not met any. I have met Congolese, Nigerian, Kenyan and Malawi nationals. I count a Nigerian who trained at 43 Air School (sponsored by a Nigerian church, no less) as a very dear friend and would happily have him in the left seat at any time. But nope, still have not met any South Africans!

Secondly, my response to saywhat. Yes, there was AA applied by the National party government after 1948. Yes, they did try to uplift the Afrikaner. And guess what? They were right to do so too. This due to the policy of the previous SAP government of promoting only english speaking South Africans and top jobs in state departments being reserved for english speakers only. Now, measured with the same yardstick, its time to uplift the black population of SA too. No quarrel with this at all. But why force the issue when the interest isnt there? Why penalise willing whites to force in unwilling blacks? How does this uplift anyone? If I meet an SA born black man or women who can convince me they have the same burning ambition to fly. The same all-consuming desire that I had and still have, incidentally, then I will sponsor that person myself! I will spend time coaching him/her and assisting with studies, etc. This because, in my book, aviation must be the winner and not half baked racist motivated, get-even-with-whitey, intervention to score political brownie points. Before you point fingers at past injustices first ask yourself What have I/could I do to improve the situation? One suggestion is to make the skies safer by passing on your own hard-earned knowledge.

In closing, any one else notice how SA based ppruners(is that right?) dont seem to interfere in other countries problems/concerns, etc. But post something about SA and everyone and his mate from all over the world, judging by this one topic, wants to tell us off or f:mad: with us? Maybe the time has come to get the gloves off and do the same?:}

[JetNut]

Jamex, Nugpot...

I personally know of at least three PD pilots (SA citizens, born and bred), at SAA who've paid for their own training, flew contracts, instructed, etc. to gain the required experience. If you want their conact details to verify this, PM me, and I will gladly forward you the information.

Otherwise, Nugpot, your assessment of the situation is nevertheless quite accurate. However, making reckless generalisations is not objective and unfair to those involved.

Jamex...you obviously don't know every pilot in the SA aviation industry.

[nugpot]

I personally know of at least three PD pilots (SA citizens, born and bred)

OK, again I'll bite. I have 2 questions here:

1. Those PD's Jetnut, are they black or brown according to our country's wonderful colour coded history? This thread is about black pilots, although we all talk about PD's to save some sensitive egos.

2. Even if there are 10 black pilots training in SA with their own money, please explain to me why that is significant. The AA/EE brigade wants the airlines to be representative. That means that 75% of all pilots should be black. Not Coloured/Indian/Pink or Blue, but black! To get that right and with all the jobs just waiting for them, don't you think that there would at least be hundreds, if not thousands of the 30 million black people in this country queueing up for flying lessons.

And please don't use poverty as an excuse. I came from a very poor home. It took me 17 years from my first flight to the right seat of an airline.

[JetNut]

It is also noticeable that there are no PD pilots-to-be paying for their own training and then joining the ranks of contract pilots to build hours.


Well, previously disadvantaged individuals consist of Blacks, Indians and Coloureds. So...are you saying SAA have enough Indian and Coloured pilots. Just to clarify? If this is the case, totally unfair, I think.

[Flyer14]

Those PD kids who have the abilities and perseverance to become good pilots (it is a crappy job and you have to love it to carry on doing it), can easily make more money by getting a share of the BEE pie outside aviation.

Maybe I'm an idealist but I wouldn't trade my cockpit for any sort of desk job ever - even with the 3:00am wake-ups and living the contract life.:ok:

[Flying Binghi]

Quote - any one else notice how SA based ppruners(is that right?) dont seem to interfere in other countries problems/concerns, etc. But post something about SA and everyone and his mate from all over the world, judging by this one topic, wants to tell us off or f:mad: with us? Maybe the time has come to get the gloves off and do the same

Jamex, unforetunatly the stuff ups in SA (and Africa) get visited upon the rest of the world - How many whites left in SA now ?
Next it will be an increase in boat refugees.

[bman0429]

The stupid color coding system dreamed up by the sub human morons responsible for the system in place during aparthied means nothing! There's no such thing as colored or black. As far as I'm concerned there is no distinction between the two. A slave's a slave's wether you work in the house or the field its the same.That whole skin color thing was dreamed up by some white guy where he was the ideal and each variation further from him was a little down the chain. What a proud heritage!
Are you guys who chest thump about having to work your way up are blind to the fact that cadet programs is how many cockpits around the world are filled? If you aren't I guess we are just complaining about how unfair it is that you maybe excluded? Were you complaining 13 years ago under the previous system about how your brothers and sisters were being treated?

Flying Binghi do you really wanna take the gloves off and have a arguement about the morals and virtues of aparthied?

[Flying Binghi]

bman 0429,

I think Rwanda in 1994 showed the world that no race of people have a monopoly on sub-human acts.

I have no interest in discusing aparthied as such.

What I am interested in, is why there appears to be a problem with first getting, then retaining black pilots for SAA. (please note all my knoledge of African aviation comes from this forum) According to BALEWA, there seems to be no problems in Nigeria.

My question re black ultralight pilots is my 'Reductio ad adsurdum' way of seeking more background information - The problem may relate to another country I am thinking of.

[ERASER]

Press Releases
September 12, 2007 - 08:47The truth about affirmative action in South Africa
The trade union Solidarity this week issued a document entitled The Truth about Affirmative Action in South Africa, in which it points out that transformation in South Africa has progressed much further than is generally accepted.
The report also shows why the Employment Equity Commission’s reports cannot serve as a basis for scientific deductions on employment equity in our country. The report was introduced at the Western Cape launch of Solidarity Deputy General Secretary Dr Dirk Hermann’s book The Naked Emperor – Why affirmative action has failed.
Despite their flawed scientific basis, the Employment Equity Commission’s own reports show that South Africa is much further along the road to transformation than the Commission’s own reports would suggest.
According to the report, black male representation at top management level has grown by 55,9% from 2001-2006; at senior management level by 44% and at professional and mid-management levels by 44%. Representation by white males declined by 22% at top management level, by 25% at senior management level and by 24% at professional and middle management level. White females were hardest hit. Their share of the labour market declined by 24% between 2001 and 2006. The share of white males in the labour market as a whole declined by 16%.
The Solidarity report shows that there are year on year variations of between 30% and 195% in the number of reports submitted by employers. Only about 28% - or approximately 1 540 out of an average of 5 478 reports – come from the same employers. This means that different years cannot be compared, since the data sets are so radically different. In addition, the Employment Equity Commission’s reports only cover approximately 9,28% of South African employees.
The Solidarity report used data from the Employment Equity Commission, the General Household Survey, a database of JSE directors, the South African Advertising Research Foundation studies on the black middle-class and reports by the Public Service Commission.
The Solidarity report found that many black-dominated employers failed to submit employment equity reports, which skews the information regarding employment equity. In 2005, 25 municipalities (including Tshwane and Johannesburg), 13 provincial departments and 19 national departments did not submit reports. Other institutions that did not submit reports include parliament and the Director of Public Prosecutions.
According to the South African Advertising Research Foundation, black representation in senior management increased from 8 766 to 28 658 between 1997 and 2006. In the same period, white representation declined from 30 876 to 22 758. The JSE currently lists 24% black directors. In the past 13 months the black middle class grew by an astonishing 30% and now numbers 2,6 million. At present there are more black diamonds than working whites and the buying power of the black diamonds amounts to R180 billion, i.e. 28% of South African buying power. On Wednesday, 12 September, Solidarity introduced a comprehensive report on white females and affirmative action at the public hearings of the parliamentary portfolio committee workplace discrimination. Place: Room v475, Parliament.
Dirk Hermann
Deputy General Secretary: Solidarity http://www.pprune.org/forums/cid:[email protected]

[nugpot]

Well, previously disadvantaged individuals consist of Blacks, Indians and Coloureds. So...are you saying SAA have enough Indian and Coloured pilots. Just to clarify? If this is the case, totally unfair, I think.

Jetnut, I think you are being deliberately obtuse. The title of this thread should explain that we are talking about a specific group of previously disadvantaged persons. If you ask any black person whether they count Coloureds and Indians as black, you will see why I made the distinction. I don't think that any of the PD groups are represented in the correct ratio to their ratio of the population, but I don't agree that the reason is racism in Aviation. There are various reasons.

Are you guys who chest thump about having to work your way up are blind to the fact that cadet programs is how many cockpits around the world are filled? If you aren't I guess we are just complaining about how unfair it is that you maybe excluded? Were you complaining 13 years ago under the previous system about how your brothers and sisters were being treated?

bman0429, you don't know what you are talking about, so kindly take your American input somewhere else.

Cadet programs fill cockpits where there are shortages in pilots. There is none in SA that was not caused by the AA program and the crime in this country. If you read this thread carefully without your Oprah blinkers, you will see that there are very specific challenges in this country and those are being mismanaged by a government that should know better.

South Africa abolished slavery long before the good ol' US of A. We have progressive constitution that puts yours to shame and the white population of SA is a very small minority, so even if we wanted to oppress the rest of the population (which we don't), we can't.

Get a life and try and reign in your own war-mongering president before you get involved in my beautiful country's politics.

[Jamex]

Jetnut, once again I have to agree with Nugpot. I also think you are being deliberately obtuse. I do not profess to know every pilot in SA. Nor have I ever claimed to do so. Read the post again. I clearly said I am not saying there are no black pilots who paid their own way, simply that I have not met any! After a career in aviation in excess of twenty years I would think it fair to at least have met ONE. Particularly as is fondly imagined there are allegedly hoards of blacks who, but for apartheid, would've been flying today! The issue is, the blacks have clearly not got the same desire, passion or whatever else you wish to call it to fly aeroplanes. When I was a kid there was no programme like the SAAF's Siyandiza programme going to far-flung places to encourage anyone. There was no cadet programme. The Mecca of aviation and the only choice really was SAA. Yet many people, including myself, stuck to our guns, bit the bullet and scrounged, begged and borrowed (never stole) our way to the ratings and hours to get what we had always wanted. I do not come from a wealthy family and paid my own way, holding down a job and doing extra part time work to accumulate the funds. There were days I did not eat. So, NO SIR, the blacks never had the monopoly in suffering! As for the moron from New Orleans also trying to get his kicks at our expense, once again well said Nugpot! Go and sort out your own mess in New Orleans. Talking about sub-human behaviour then you need not look further than your own city to see some sub-human goings-on following after Hurrican Katherine!

[vref+10]

According to Eraser's post, a lot of BEE controlled companies and, even more shockingly, many government depts. in SA are not submitting reports on compliance with said government's EE objectives yet it's white controlled companies that are threatened with prosecution.

Sounds like racist discrimination to me! So much for the much cherished belief in some quarters that only whites are capable of racism and discrimination! Wonder what the approx. 1 million dead Rwandans would have to say about that?!

Anybody from any race is capable of the most heinous acts given the right circumstances coupled with a total lack of basic morality! Has no one, especially some politicians, learned a damn thing from WW2 and other 20th century conflicts?

[Captain_djaffar]

such pointless issue and history recall will only wind up some individuals...even though i might think this topic could have been dealt with in some other ways and not openly in a forum.

It's like to bring up germany's 1939 WW2 with some germans(obviously not responsible for what happened during those time)...some will be open...but most will avoid.

Let's avoid such fragile topic people....:)

[Flying Binghi]

Foreget history and you are doomed to repeat it.

[fluffyfan]

Flying Binghi seeing as you deem it nesessary to get involved in this discussion on Internal South African aviation problems.....

Please could you inform me of how many Aboriginals are in Qantas, or any other of your airlines? do you have Cadet programmes for Aboriginal people, is there any guilt in Australia for what you have done to the indiginous people in your own country, or do you quite conveniantly overlook those problems and stand on a soap box and shout at South Africans.

Its quite blatantly disgusting how your countrymen have treated the indigenous people of Australia, and what you have reduced them to.

[Flying Binghi]

fluffyfan, please reread my posts in this thread

[AAL]

Well said Nugs and fluffyfan.

Is it not amazing that when you start to point out others' shortcomings and inequalities, how quickly they want to drop and bin the thread.

Was going to ask yesterday how many aborigine's fly for Quantas, but then we all know. Perhaps soon if they are lucky they will be allowed to enter Cadet programmes in Gibson Dessert Airlines.

Let those who live in glass houses not cast the first stone!

[ZAZOO]

Interesting Thread!

Chuffed at how far this thread has come well done to everyone, we have started something good here, by the looks of it everyone wants things to get better in SA concerning the race issue.

Wonder if Balawa ever thought it would take this course when he asked those now so famous questions.

Once again hats off to u all :ok:

Zazoo

[B Sousa]

What a topic..........Re-invent the wheel. I have been flying for 38 years and my Flight Surgeon has been flying longer than that........He is Black. Oh my god, its amazing. Black folks can fly.......Im going to have to ask him if flying is difficult, maybe harder than MED SCHOOL.
This should be on Jet Blast......Then we could all say what kind of XXXXing idiot started this thread.
Hey this has XXXXall to do with SA or OZ land. Come to the States and I will let you go fly with real Indians..........Yes they also fly, XXXXing amazing isnt it........ If Im coreect the first semi upright walking thing in space was a Chimp....... Humans were second.......

Into the shelter awaiting the smart bomb??

[Flying Binghi]

Interesting post B Sousa,

I dont see it written anywhere in this thread the claim that black people cannot fly. From your USA perspective I think the WW2 Tuskegee crew put any lingering doubts of that to rest.

Perhaps you should reread Balewa's post.

[Champagne Lover]

Now add extra factors such as personality, I have flown with and done training with pilots of various races who either excelled at being a hands on pilot ready to make those decisions and those who are not worthy of being anything more than co-pilots.
Hello Soap. Just confirm your feeling about co-pilots please?
I'm referring to large aeroplaned and CRM and all that "Rubbish".....
Post #12 refers.

[unstable load]

What a topic..........Re-invent the wheel. I have been flying for 38 years and my Flight Surgeon has been flying longer than that........He is Black. Oh my god, its amazing. Black folks can fly.......Im going to have to ask him if flying is difficult, maybe harder than MED SCHOOL.
This should be on Jet Blast......Then we could all say what kind of XXXXing idiot started this thread.
Hey this has XXXXall to do with SA or OZ land. Come to the States and I will let you go fly with real Indians..........Yes they also fly, XXXXing amazing isnt it........ If Im coreect the first semi upright walking thing in space was a Chimp....... Humans were second.......

Into the shelter awaiting the smart bomb?


Yes Bert,

But can he swim................:confused::eek::E:sad:

[rumline]

Quote: "If Im coreect the first semi upright walking thing in space was a Chimp....... Humans were second......."

Well if chimps had developed the technology and BUILT the rocket...then this would be a valid point....and of grave concern for us humans....but they didn't......

I digress..

Fact is that the underlying question here, the proverbial rhinocerous on the coffee table....is the question of the relationship between aptitudes, technologies and cultural pathologies...in other words, are there features of one particular group that leads them to have particular prowess in a field of endeavour.....or are we all exactly the same with exactly the same potential.
Is there certain cultural pathologies whose traits are anathema to technology.....for instance, is a strong culture of 'saving face' anathema to good crm which is critical to flight safety and therefore, should that cultural group refrain from crew concept flying?
Hard questions and being militantly politically correct will not lead to any constructive discussions....only mud-slinging.

[fluffyfan]

bman0429

A slave's a slave's wether you work in the house or the field its the same.That whole skin color thing was dreamed up by some white guy where he was the ideal and each variation further from him was a little down the chain. What a proud heritage!

bman I hope you are not suggesting that slavery was invented by the white man, if you are I suggest you open a few books and you will find out that slavery has been around from year dot, white people took other white people as slaves during the Roman empire and far earlier than that, black people took other black people slaves during wars between villages and tribes.

I know this is not an aviation related post but just thought I would set you straight on a few points.......as for "the whole skin color thing being dreamed up by some white guy" I think you may find that people have separated themselves into tribes and races from before recorded history, so give that little "white guy" you seem to blame everything on a break and lets deal with facts.

[ARENDIII]

BALEWA,
If you are a pilot, fly and enjoy the rewards that your chosen career may bring.
Be professional and be true to your beliefs.
Uphold the standards that we have come to expect from the aviation community.
I have many friends that fly and I do not classify them as anything except fellow aviators-welcome to the sky, enjoy it safely with us!
I wish you well.

[Jamex]

Fluffyfan, to add to your last post regarding slave taking. There were in excess of a million WHITE slaves taken by the North Africans when the Cartheginians were raiding Europe prior to the Roman Empire. No one culture has it over the other with regards to slavery but the American blacks and the African Mugabe wannabees love the-Whites-took-Blacks-as-slaves refrain. Always conveniently forgetting the African slave-taking expeditions were led mainly by Arabs. Zanzibar was a slave trading post belonging to the Sultan of Oman. The whites did have slaves but they were mostly bought from Arabs and the Arabs mostly bought them from the various Black tribal chiefs. So, there own people sold them into slavery. And then we wont mention the slave trade that went on amongst the various black tribes. A bit off the topic I know, but then bman chose to rehash Black Panther propaganda from 1960's USA! NOW, enough of the history and the past, can we get back to flying related topics?

[rumline]

And as an addendum.....the majority of slavery in the modern world continues to exist in..........you guessed it....
Africa.

[B Sousa]

Since 1994, South Africa has been run by the ANC. In theory, this has given any wannbe "African" pilot 13 years to get a licence and get a job at SAA. PDI's have been given plenty of opportunities in South Africa and SAA since 1994
Saw this back a few pages. Maybe some aspiring Blacks should take head. Based on the kind folks at BEE, there is no need to study hard to become a Pilot, when one can RUN the whole Airline with absolutely Zero experience. Better yet, run the CAA.

[rumline]

And if you've dealt with the SA CAA......:ugh:

[JetNut]

In all fairness the CAA has changed 180 degrees for the better over the past 10 years. Can anyone remember the days when we had to deal with the DOT (dept. of transport):eek: in the middle of Pretoria. Now that my friend was a pathetic operation!

[unstable load]

In all fairness the CAA has changed 180 degrees for the better over the past 10 years. Can anyone remember the days when we had to deal with the DOT (dept. of transport):eek: in the middle of Pretoria. Now that my friend was a pathetic operation!


Oh, I'm not so sure of that. I got my first license from the old DOT and it was
1) CHEAPER
2) Promptly handled
3) Accurate first time out.

I just renewed and added a type and it was
1) LOST and I had to reapply!
2) Came back WRONG TWICE for the added type I had applied for
3) Took 4 months to happen
4) A d@mn side more expensive and much more hassles.

[rumline]

I've been working for years on a validation that's done up by the 'new' rainbow CAA...
I've had documents lost, not returned, wrong type issued, wrong expiry dates, delays in processing, and also found it to be hideously expensive..fortunatly a cost borne by my company...
But the CAA, like every other governmental agency, is being used by the ANC to provide an employement service....often for less than qualified candidates..

[unstable load]

nuff sed!!!!

[poorpilotbz]

stop with the inferiority complex...please.....that race topic is not worth discussing....

[unstable load]

poorpilot,

Sorry, man! I am not interested in the racial issues, all I care about is the drop in standard and service that is occurring.

I don't give a toss HOW it's come about, but I DO give a toss that it HAS come about. If it is because there are people of lesser abilities who are non-white then it NEEDS FIXING and Government needs to be held accountable.

It is their direct stated policy that whites are not to be included and if that is leading to this then it needs addressing. Not rascist, just my opinion, and if you think that makes me a rascist, then think away, my friend. I know my opinions, and in my opinion it is wrong, FULL STOP!

[Shockwave Sam]

C4-Sport your post with the pic of the DS kid was in really bad taste-come on girls and boys lets behave like grown ups!

[oompilot]

You guys are wrong. The new CAA is cheaper. The other day I was issued my first helicopter type rating. I never even had to pay for one flying hour on eggbeaters. Now that’s a great saving!

[chileno 777]

He is Black. Oh my god, its amazing. Black folks can fly.......Im going to have to ask him if flying is difficult, maybe harder than MED SCHOOL.
This should be on Jet Blast......Then we could all say what kind of XXXXing idiot started this thread.



B Sousa

Nobody said or posted that black people cant fly! Do not need to be ironic or sarcastic. Suggest you to read the all posts again.
I do not know about the true intentions of Balewa when started this thread, and personally do not know him but can assure you that he is not any kind of xxxxing idiot just for asking about how was aviation before 1994.

SirOsis and Saywhat thanks for the answer,:ok:
Nugpot believe that your post was a very fair assesment about aviation in SA.:D

[C4]

I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities shockwave... :eek:
However, contrary to popular belief, humour is found in all walks of life...:ouch:

[Flying Binghi]

Interesting article about Qantas -

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22843442-23349,00.html

[fluffyfan]

Flying Binghi about time wouldn't you say

[TermightJim]

Well guys it seems to be that a :mad: foreigner has led us into the old race debate. Its gone from a topic about flying to AWB "broeder bond" vs ANC. Racism isnt dead in SA, far from it. As long as we give a reaction to these topics, the longer theyll be around. Dont get me wrong I have my own opinions about this, but I keep these arguments for braai time or when they are really needed or can be veiwed in a serious light.This topic has been thrashed to death on pprune for as long as I can remember.

I know it feels good to vent, but as long as there are no real names behind these posts, it becomes a bashing session and wont be taken seriously.

Standing by all the rebuttles.....

[The 1]

guys it was rather interesting and teadious catching up on the five pages, going back to the original question; is it at all possible to get the exact figures from our respective companies on the amounts of Captains, first officers, P3's and of at all the ATC's of whites and non-whites.

I think Balelwa this would be sufficient for you.

[Alternative]

Come on guys….stop blaming AA for screwing up your career….Had it not been for AA, I doubt any person of colour would even be given a chance in this industry in SA.


One need only look at the stats of companies that have been hiring in the past year…

SAX – more than 30 new intakes, in the past year. Apart from Cadets, which the company benefits from because of subsidized training costs and reduced salaries, how many non-whites have they hired?
Interviewed several but most were never called back and I know a couple of them that have started or will be starting at Comair soon.

Link – Same story

Comair – The only reason that they have hired a handful of non – whites is because of Government pressure and this after 13 years….Hopefully, they will have their first non – white Commander in the new year.

SAA – Well, one need only look at surnames of the last 24 odd individuals that were hired this year and you will find 4/24 are non whites and yes, the rest are all very very white…..even though there are dozens of cadets at the feeders that have the necessary experience to join.
Its remarkable to note that on the last selection, a non white individual scored the highest during the selections……He is still not at SAA!!!

Mango/1time – Nil in their entire fleet.


There you have it, even though there are several non-whites that are P1 rated on Medium Turbo Props flying for the Quilla’s, NAC’s and Solenta’s……(And you can be rest assured, coming from people that have had the privilege of sharing a cockpit with them, these individuals have proven themselves as being more than capable pilots and commanders. I am also sure that people reading these forums can verify the above)….
Many of them are not even given a second glance from SA airlines and are still marginalized whilst individuals with half their experience are sitting in cushy airline jobs.

These are facts………Now I will wait for the onslaught!

[nugpot]

SAX – more than 30 new intakes, in the past year. Apart from Cadets, which the company benefits from because of subsidized training costs and reduced salaries, how many non-whites have they hired?
Interviewed several but most were never called back and I know a couple of them that have started or will be starting at Comair soon.

I am impressed that you call these facts. By your own admission you are not with SAX, so you cannot possibly know what happens there. Do you seriously want to tell me that a state owned airline with almost exclusively black management (and they are doing extremely well with the airline) will not take suitably qualified black pilots?

How would you know what pilots score at SAA interviews? That info is not freely available and what you heard over a beer does not constitute a fact.

BTW, SAX does not benefit from subsidised training costs. SAA pays for any extra training over what a normal pilot at SAX would require. The costs to SAX to get a cadet on line is actually a bit more than it is to get a normal FO on line, because SAX needs to put a 3rd pilot on the flight deck for the first 25 sectors that the cadets fly, in case the training captain is incapacitated.

I just love all the "facts" from the uninformed peanut gallery...........

[Alternative]

Exclusive Black Management? How many of these Black Managers sit on the selection board? The stats of your intakes, bare adequate testimony to the SAX selection policies........Cadets cost more,?I think not! Offset by reduced salaries!

SAA scores.....defintely not over a beer.....I am more well informed than you think!

Uninformed Peanut Gallery - You or ME!!!! No need to go down that route NUTgPOT!
No we are even!!!!:=

[nugpot]

How many of these Black Managers sit on the selection board?

On the specific board that you are referring to - one black manager. But there were meetings at executive level about the suitability of those candidates.

Cadets cost more,?I think not! Offset by reduced salaries!

Please try and concentrate. I said their training costs more.

Also, you cannot use the salary difference without taking all the other facts into consideration. SAX has to run the DH8 FO pool fat to have FO's available for upgrade, because the cadets leave after two years and will never upgrade ar SAX. Futhermore, because of their longer training SAX has to employ two more training captains on that pool than would be required if the cadets were not there. Add to that the fact that you have to replace the cadets every two years with even more training costs. They are certainly not cheaper.

SAA scores.....defintely not over a beer.....I am more well informed than you think!

I am willing to bet that your "fact" is hearsay. You might trust your source, but I don't.

[bushmeat1]

"Quote by Balewa"
Here in Nigeria the issue of being black and a pilot has never been an issue, as far as I know Nigerian pilots have been flying for sometime now, even during the fifties we had guys sent to the UK for flight training et al and have kept that image going till today.


yes you are quite right Balewa and I remember very well a Captain Rufus Orimoloye.

On 30 July 1968 Rufus departed from Heathrow at 21:50 for Lagos via Rome and Kano under the command of Captain C J Gray with Captain Rufus Orimoloye as Command Under Supervision. The VC10 was operating West African service WT923 and proceeded without incident, arriving in Kano at 05:07 on 31st July.

For the final Kano-Lagos sector the arrival weather forecast predicted squall lines - characteristic thunderstorms which affect the West African coast during the rainy season. Orimoloye elected to proceed to Lagos on a 'look see' basis and nominated Kano as the return alternative. After descending to within operational limits on an approach to Runway 19, visibility was poor so the flight returned to Kano.

Consideration was given to terminating the flight at Kano but it was reported that the weather conditions at Lagos had improved so a further attempt was made to land there. By the time the plane began its second approach, conditions worsened. The aircraft circled for a while, then Captain Orimoloye decided to make an approach from the coast and ran inland using VOR and DME. At a late stage, the runway was sighted and the aircraft was placed to make a landing. The airfield, however, was awash with heavy rain and the crew decided to make a further go-around.

At this point Number 3 engine started to run rough and had to be shut down. A diversion to Accra was decided upon as it had better maintenance facilities and the availability of a spare engine. During the short flight to Accra, Lagos ATC called the VC10 to report that a Comet of East African Airways had just landed at Lagos and aquaplaned off the end of the runway, coming to rest in deep mud just short of the boundary. The two Captains looked at each other with gratification.

G-ARVL landed at Accra at 12:10 where the flight was terminated. As the crew were about to leave, the Engineer called them back to the tarmac to inspect the failed engine which had been fitted with experimental carbon fibre compressor blades; the basis for the new Rolls-Royce RB211 engine. To the crew's astonishment, the compressor blades had been shredded and were hanging in tatters. It was concluded that they had been damaged by exposure to heavy tropical rain. On returning to London, Gray reported that Orimoloye had passed with flying colours and was cleared to operate in command of the VC10. He also added that if he had shares in Rolls-Royce, he would sell them at once.

Rufus was a great guy and so were all the lads from Nigeria, bunch of dedicated and highly professional Pilots.

Anyone with any info on Rufus please PM me.

[hotmj43]

Bushmeat 1,
i can not thank you enough,for putting out this,it speaks for its self. I had the privelage of meeting Capt Rufus,be it that he had long retired then,and i was just coming into the profession,a most humble man,and one Nigeria and Affrica should be proud of.
We in Nigeria should not forget Capt Bob Hayes........many will remember him,i leave it at that.
Thanks once again:D

[lowbypass]

Sounds like an extract from "Fate is the hunter".
It REALLY speaks for itself.
Main snag in aviation (as this is our field) in South Africa, is that apartheid thing. It is not frequently mentioned here but it WAS there.
If I copied BALEWA stength 5, he wants to know how was it like to be a (black) pilot in the face of apartheid, we know there were lawyers who actually practised, why not ask about pilots?
Correct me if I am doing the thinking for you balewa buddy...:8

[Champagne Lover]

Under the PREVIOUS "regime", skin colour was 80% of everything. The remainder was Name, i.e. Koos Oberholzer, Language i.e. Afrikaans and thirdly but not last, Religion i.e. Dutch reformed!
Now it's 100% Skin colour!
Take a stroll through immigration, see what races are represented by these public officials. ALL black skins! Same with most other departments. Try the SACAA counters???
Black pilots....white companies. Mmmm... Where are the BLACK airline companies????? And then, I will also want to see a correct proportion of white male pilots there too!
No, their businessmen/woman are too busy creaming off easy got money through goverment deals to bother about private black empowerment. Much rather ride on the white mans toil! Strange, huh? Why is it not the other way round????? Why IS there an issue to start off with?
"Rumour" has it, that a certain 'islander' was in the goverment after Apartheid, when a foreign country offered to "help" by giving money and other aid, to start an internal airline to help the previously disadvantaged. This he graciously accepted. Then he was susequently approached by the French to "procure" their machines. With a little backhand deal from them. He agreed and accepted the backhand. Well, the original donor company advised him which of their aircraft they will be selling to SA for the airline, and he said, "No, I don't think so. I have already chosen the aircraft we will use, they will come from France."
Well, did he get a WAKE-UP call when the donor company told him that eith it's their countries aircraft or no deal! What did he think???? Had to pay the back-hand back!
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Maurice Chavez]

Black, White, Yellow, I don't care, as long as you can fly. However I will not stand for racisme in the flightdeck. Outside that door and away from being on duty for your airline, do what ever you please. I'll give you a short story of a company I used to work for in Europe.
Funny that always the whiteboy gets blamed for racisme. That sad story is that it isn't, nor is it only in South Africa. Most of you love to believe this, unfortunatly the truth is far from this.It happens everywhere.....
Some of you might know the person I'm about to refer to, W.B. Person in question is an American, or African American as he calls himself. Now when I first met Walter he was a Co-Pilot on the DC-8, helluva driver too I must admit! Flew with him a year he being F/O. Then Walter went for his upgrade, now Walter is a DC-8 Captain.Good on you Walt.You deserve it man!
Walter does fine and gets along with everybody. Walter loves to play Golf and most of us will play with 'ol Walt a round.Walt seems like a real nice guy, a bit strange towards his sexual orientation.But hell, the nicest guys you can imagine! Few months get on, Walter is getting bored...
Walt starts to crack jokes.... Jokes to where ol' Walt is referring himself to as a 'Nigger'. Yeah great fun! Now Walt is trying to get it out of our mouths too. He wants us to call him a ''Nigger". Sorry Walt, no can do.
However Walt won't quit. It's getting inside the Flight Deck now as well. Cracking jokes (not sure if it was or not) about him being a Nigger. Walt ends up being a pain in the royal behind. Ol' Walt doesn't win his battle with racisme. So no problem for Walt. Walt now will be a pain in the ass with everybody he fly's with.Walt being the Captain of this old ****ty DC-8 will make every trip he goes on a nightmare.
Walt is flying up and down Africa (because he's been pulled off one of the better contracts flying around at night in Europe) and hates it. Now ol' Walt is getting more and more p*ssed, at what, I still don't know. It came to the point that ol' Walt was insulting local ground crew in Abidjan, calling them "Niggers". It even went further then that but I'll leave at that.
Ol' Walt a few months later get's involved in an arguement with one of his crewmembers in the hotel bar (real clever). Anyways, Walt got what he finally wanted and the preson in question called him a "Nigger". Now Walt makes a big scene in the bar and calls for a "Webster's" dictionary, to show his fellow collegue what that word really means.
Not much later on another layover, Ol' Walt plays golf with his crew. One of his crew members fall for his trick again and calls ol' Walt a "Nigger". Well, so Walt claims. Nobody was there to witness it.
That must have been what Walt was looking for. Just as he did in Emery he tried to sue our company. He did walk away from Emery with a few bob, but he didn't with us.With our company he left empty handed and lost respect from all of his fellow aviators.
You can be a racist all you want. But keep it out of your job, wether it's in the airline industry or KFC.
For those of you who know ol' Walt, you probably know what I mean. :=

[Danny1987]

balewa your an absolute imbaseel grow up and forget about your silly apartheid grudge! its in the past! you wanna be contructive then just leave pprune!:mad:

[TomBola]

Hm..... let's see:
your = you're, imbaseel = imbecile, it's = it's
I wonder who the imbaseel is here :\

[missingblade]

its=it's - you meant to say! Remember about people who live in glass houses? Or public forums?:ouch:

[TomBola]

Oops! :uhoh: :O

But at least I know what an imbecile is :E

[BALEWA]

Its Christmas guy's so let be Merry, Danny1987 thanks for your Christmas Card, and a very Merry Christmas to you too me lad :) .