Pegasus 737 nearly lands on fire truck in Finland

[md80forum]

A Pegasus 737 flight is under investigation in Finland after the crew reportedly left holding pattern over Pori (EFPO) and tried to land without landing clearance. The landing, on 14 November, had been delayed due low vis and malfunction of RVR meters and visibility was at the time of the near-miss being determined by airport staff in a fire truck.

Two airport workers say they were parked in the middle of rwy, when alerted by TWR of the incoming 737, which did a go-around, visible to the men in the mirrors of the fire truck, as they were rushing to get off the runway "with four more meters still to go".

The flight left for Afghanistan with Finnish UN peacekeepers on board, before the Finnish accident investigation board OTK had been alerted, and "valuable data" was reported to be lost.

The inbound flight was reported to be a ferry with only crew on board.

[411A]

Hmmm, one wonders that perhaps the tower had their knickers in a twist.
Fire trucks should not be on the runway unless a plane is right and truly on fire...:}

[Antman]

411A, I thought you been there and done that. I the old days before transmissometers(RVR meters) a fire truck was sent onto the runway to count runway edge lights he/she could see down the runway so a RVR could be calculated. Since the transmissometers where U/S in this case, is it not obvoius why the fire truck was on the runway:ugh:

[parkfell]

Something like this happened many moons ago at Leeds [EGNM] with a Viscount.
As a result, human observer RVR is now done from defined positions away from the runway.

[411A]

Since the transmissometers where U/S in this case, is it not obvoius why the fire truck was on the runway

Never been there and done that as a fireman, Antman, however parkfell's observation certainly seems more suitable.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Dont Pegasus have enthusiasts paying to play first officers? Hardly a surprise then when things like this happen then. :suspect:

[Hipsway]

I'm sure the reason that you opted to train as a pilot is that you were an enthusiast right?? What's wrong with guys and girls who finance their own training and don't take the traditional path to FO?? Just because they take that particular route to the cockpit, does that make them less worthy then you?

[juniour jetset]

Well said Hipsway.:D

Too many "Captain Elites" on this website. Which is good for all the good info and facts that they bring, but bad when they get arrogant and diss those below them.

Anything can happen in this world and even highly experinced flyers crash planes and kill people, as is showed most weeks by the news flow on the site. So a little more humility coul go a long way further!

[Mercenary Pilot]

What's wrong with guys and girls who finance their own training and don't take the traditional path to FOYeah I'm traditional, I actually get paid to do my job, that also makes me a professional. I also had to go through an interview and assessment to get selected for my position. I didn't rock up with £10000 and say "I want to fly a 737 for 500 hours please". Does that make them them less worthy? Damn right it does!!!!

But its not all their fault, after all, if these dodgy airlines didn't exist then it wouldn't happen.

[captjns]

Hey Merc... I've seen worthless pilots who received 10,000 during their training, vs. those who have paid 10,000 for their training, and are an asset to the crew.

The F/O is not the one who made the choice to fly the approach.... it was the PIC... you know the guy who may have the same traditional values as you.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Very possible but when £10,000 of your own money is riding on it, what are you going to do? Tell the captain "no"?

The system of paying for hour building on commercial aircraft needs to stop! It means constant low experience in the RHS, unfair completion between proper airlines (due to massively reduced wage bills), potential new pilots being put off by the constant "raising of the financial bar" and erosion to professional pilot's T+C's.

It IS a safety concern!

[captjns]

Low time pilots are entering cockpits of "proper airlines" whether paid for the entrant or not. As in the past, the pay to play program will contiune until the market dries up.

[pilotbear]

mercenary pilot you and your kind are just f****** a********. You are no better than anyone else, in fact your superiority complex makes you a danger to everyone. No doubt you would ignore a safety observation made by a 'junior' member of the profession as it couldn't possibly be right. Surprised you made it through an interview process at all, did you ask if the HR person had paid for their own university education so that you could asses their worthiness to interview you.:ugh:
This site really does need a Dick***d filter:rolleyes:

[captjns]

The last check I wrote for flight training was 27 years ago when I obtained my Multi-I.

Times have changed. Today, low time pilots are entering cockpits of "proper airlines" whether the training is paid for the entrant or not. The pay to play program is here to stay until the market dries up.

F/Os can't be blamed for a captain's decision if the underlying fear is retaining his. Look back in history at the number of experienced crews (non participants of the "Pay to Play Plan)" that rode their ships into the ground because of the captain's decision to continue the approach in adverse weather conditions, or not land the plane now during emergency situations.

Again, F/Os are captains in training and not along for the ride. Hopefully they will pick acquire the good habits and discipline from the skippers they fly with.

[md80forum]

Well, it seems like you all guys came up with a real waterproof plan how to make these incidents not happen again... :rolleyes:

[juniour jetset]

nice reply pilot bear:D

[M609]

Leaving holding, flying the approach and attempting a landing without clearance is a rather big c*** up if you ask me. Looks like Pori is a combined TWR & approach unit run on single freq. Anyone know if they have radar data available to them in the TWR? If not, they controller really can't detect it!


As for RVR measuring:

As a result, human observer RVR is now done from defined positions away from the runway.

How on earth can you measure accurate RVR away from the RWY with the Mk.1's?? 50 meters from the edge, and you get a slant view of the edge lights. (And I know the regs state that you must do it on the runway, at least in Norway and Sweden.)


As for the airline, I've seen Pegasus just clear the rwy end lights and barely get airborne in a tailwind departure with a 737, so I'm not really surprised. They pioneered a new runway and ENGM as well. Prejudiced I know..... :suspect:

[Mercenary Pilot]

This site really does need a Dick***d filter:rolleyes:Too right, that would be you fcuked then. :ok:

Come back when you actually know something about this industry. :rolleyes:

nice reply pilot bear:DAre you like 12 years old?

Low time pilots are entering cockpits of "proper airlines" whether paid for the entrant or not. As in the past, the pay to play program will contiune until the market dries up.

True but its not a constant turn over as in these "pay to fly airlines". What you end up with is a permanently high command gradient in the cockpit.

Most decent airlines who will recruit low hour guys, will build up their knowledge and experience in the hope that they choose to stay for at least 2+ years with a notice period of 3-6 months. This then allows a good airline to have a decent level of flight experience in their F/Os (of which some will be looking towards a command) and also allows for a staggered flow of inexperienced pilots to bring up to a decent standard to replace those who ether leave or upgrade.

[juniour jetset]

no, but young at heart!

[Groundloop]

What a weird argument!! There is no info available on this thread as to the experience levels of the crew. We do not know if it was a "pay to fly" FO but that hasn't stopped some people assuming it was and using it as an excuse to start a rant.

PS why is this in Interviews, Jobs, etc and not Rumours and News? Seems like some serious news to me, if true.

[juniour jetset]

Good point Groundloop. As is the case on many of the threads here on PPRUNE, if a thread lacks firm details or we are awaiting those details, then speculation starts to fly and soon we are off the original point.

But often some interesting discussion happens on some interesting subjects, so not always complete waste of time?

The discussion of experience gradient is a valid one. But maybe also, the A**hole/skygod -to- Nice/Humble person gradient is also a big issue in this industry as well as many other working environemnts (often in the office/corporate world).

You are always gonna get a spectrum of different peronalities, but if those people with hostile attitudes thought a little bit more and read maybe some Buddhist texts for example, then maybe their actions and the way they speak and treat people could become more mindfull, thus creating a better working environment and generally a nicer world.

But that's just my view...:sad:

Sometimes every man/woman needs to look within?

[Mercenary Pilot]

There is no info available on this thread as to the experience levels of the crew. We do not know if it was a "pay to fly" FO but that hasn't stopped some people assuming it was and using it as an excuse to start a rant.I made a flippant comment aimed at Pegusus and they way they do business and I didn't actually say anything about the actual incident.

Unfortunately rather then actually having any sort of debate, you get some numpties who just start flaming. In reality these people would never dream of talking to people like that in real life but behind an anonymous username its a different matter....I guess it makes them feel big?

The point I want to get across is that you have an airline who have extremly crooked methods of crewing their aircraft so I wouldn't be surprised if the business is rotten to the core with safety being low on priorities.

I guess the reason its been moved to here is because its come back to old debate of paying for hours on type. Seems like the established pilots don't want to face up to the shafting that is constantly dished out to newbees, but this is nothing new, as a group of professionals we do seem to maintain a selfish and "I'm alright jack" attitude. I really want to see BALPA address it but I doubt they ever will.

But maybe also, the A**hole/skygod -to- Nice/Humble person gradient is also a big issue in this industryPersonally I would say no, I feel that most of the skygods I've encountered were left behind when I joined the airlines.

Anyway this has gone totally off thread and im not going to debate the "hours building" issue with people who don't know or yet understand what its doing to the industry or their future careers so that's me out.

regards

MP

:ok:

[Buster the Bear]

Human RVR. You sat in a box raised up (access via a ladder).

The human observer form of RVR depended upon the number of lights a human observer could see from his perch which was outside the localiser sensitive area (CAT 1 ILS remember). The lumination/RVR had been pre-calculated so if you could see 6 lights, the RVR was say 400 meters. The observers tended to be Fire Fighters.

The observers would report the number of lights visible to them via R/T and ATC would then look at a chart and the 'official' RVR was then determind for a runway.