New buy, PC or MAC?

[Serenity]

Still using my old viao laptop and am looking to buy a new computer this xmas. I was looking at a PC until the bright spark in PCWorld showed off the new MAc to me, must admit most impressed.
Looks like the right sort of thing, just need it for internet, photos, music etc etc.
Was not looking to spend quite so much, are they really worth the extra money??
I do know that most Mac users don`t go back to PC`s once tried.
Looking for any opinions and helpful coments, many thanks.

[airborne_artist]

With £400 you can buy a Toshiba with XP from dabs.com. Buy it by the end of the month and you get £100 cashback so long as you spend >£100 on Tosh accessories, which includes a 2 yr extended warranty for £96.00. At that price you can afford to give it away once the warranty expires.

[tallsandwich]

I do know that most Mac users don`t go back to PC`s once tried.

That doesn't actually mean that Macs are better.....LOL !!!!

You pays your money and you makes your choice (or in the case of Mac you pay more money and get less choice, :D I crack me up!)

[bnt]

Won't someone please think of the Applications? If there is anything that you consider essential, and can't find a replacement for, then moving might not be a great idea. :hmm:

[Mac the Knife]

I bought a MacBook and I'm very happy with it.

For the very few Windows apps that I still use I run 'em under Parallels3. NeoOffice is the Aqua port of OpenOffice and it replaces MS Office very well.

If you "just need it for internet, photos, music etc etc." then more and more makers are offering laptops with Linux distros (usually Ubuntu or SuSE) - enjoy a *nix OS and stop worrying about viruses and malware.

Mext desktop buy will be a Big Mac 'cos then I can run Mac, Linux and WinXP apps simultaneously.

Nothing would induce me to run Vista.

:ok:

[tallsandwich]

Well if Mac was a "good guest", it would run happily in VMWare as a guest Operating Sytem, in which case you could choose whatever "big box" you wanted from any supplier - and still have available all those operating systems you wanted, via VMWare.

While the rest of the Operating System world is opening up, Apple is still trying to keep their doors locked. Sure there is a VMWare tool for running other Operating Systems in OSX - but not the other way around. It's just another exmaple of Vendor lock-in from Mr Jobs. I suppose he is still busy trying to get Java 1.6 running on Leopard, however since they managed to take the ZFS filesystem technology from Sun for use in Leopard, I would have expected that they also could have got the latest Java version running :D

It would have to be a very bad day indeed in the computing world before I bought a Mac just so I could run other operating systems :eek:

[AlphaMale]

Used a Mac at home for 2 years now and love it. I did use them at Uni for 3/4 years so it was nothing new to me, I spent £1,000 making the best PC money can buy 4 years ago and had nothing but probems. Which was nothing new as PC's seem to always play up ... *Cough* Blue Screen of Death *Cough*

I am running all applications that I need with no problem.

But remember a 3GHz PC will not be as fast as a 2GHz Mac ... Infact nowhere near.

As a graphic designer I use a fairly powerful PC in work (something like 2.8GHz and 512Mb of Ram) and my Minimac at 1.66 Intel Duo with 512Mb Ram eats it alive.

My work PC is getting updated this week and the Mac will be updated soon to 1Gb Ram.

The only downfall was when I am doing ASP.net etc I need to use a PC :\

I found myself a PC on the Evo car forum for £50 and it's awesome for what I need ... albeit it still crashes.

Applications shouldn't prove a problem with the option of having Virtual PC or any other PC emulator.

I've convinced 2 people to convert and they all say they'd never go back and neither would I.


What Mac are you looking to get?

[tallsandwich]

as PC's seem to always play up

As I have said many times before, PCs give you choice and you have to exercise that choice carefully and manage your configuration. When the Mac world offers you that same level of choice, you will get the Blue Screen of death - as concretely shown as evidence by Leopard when you try and upgrade and you have a non-Mac USB device plugged in.

[AlphaMale]

tallsandwich while we're on OS's you might want to take a look at:

Video 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaIUkwPybtM)

Video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-2C2gb6ws8&feature=related)

Why Apple thinks you need a Mac here (http://www.apple.com/getamac/) ... pretty funny.

You get what you pay for at the end of the day.

[AlphaMale]

PCs give you choice and you have to exercise that choice carefully and manage your configuration.

Is that where Bill Gates went wrong? as seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgriTO8UHvs) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFx62_Iadjg&feature=related)

You'd think the boffins at Microsoft would know how to make their own software run wouldn't you? ... But if they can't make it run what chance does Joe public stand?

[Gonzo]

As a graphic designer I use a fairly powerful PC in work (something like 2.8GHz and 512Mb of Ram) and my Minimac at 1.66 Intel Duo with 512Mb Ram eats it alive.I assume you're comparing the same processor family here, and not comparing a NetBurst architecture P4 2.8GHz to a Core Duo architecture 1.66GHZ.

Apples and oranges.

I'll never buy a Mac until I can easily swap out components, or build my own, a la PC.

As I've said in other threads, I've been running Vista for months and I really like it. No crashes, no compatibility issues.

[AlphaMale]

You can easily swap components?

I just upgraded my fathers PowerMac from 512Mb 667 DDR2 SDRAM to 4Gb ... I didn't see any problem? As Apple says "Isn't it nice when things just ... work?"


I've worked with Photographers that have invested thousands into PC's and decided a PowerMac is better. I see that movies in Hollywood are always being made using a Mac, and when I watch an international rugby match I see the coaches using PowerBooks in the stand?

Any reason? ... Nothing against PC's but I prefer a Mac, people love the iPod / iPhone / iMac ... etc so we can't all be wrong :ok:

[beardy]

Sin City was made by Hollywood with microsoft and AMD processors. The stranglehold MAC has in Hollywood is of the imagination.

[AlphaMale]

Ok, special effects?

Lord of the Rings? ... Shake on a Mac.

Funny, Pixar uses Macs too? as seen here (http://www.pixar.com/howwedoit/index.html#).

So lets just say that anything complicated/special effects/animation and 99% of movies are made on a Mac :E

[bnt]

But remember a 3GHz PC will not be as fast as a 2GHz Mac ... Infact nowhere near.
That hasn't been true since Apple switched to the same Intel CPUs that are used in many PCs. I'll say it again: think applications. :8

If you want to use Weta Digital as a reference, note that they're primarily a Linux shop, according to their FAQ (http://www.wetadigital.com/digital/faq/general/). Or, have a look at the Massive (http://www.massivesoftware.com/products/) software they created themselves, for creating the mass battle scenes in LoTR, and its requirements (http://www.massivesoftware.com/techcentre/requirements/). There is a Windows frontend version, but the backend renderfarm is only in Linux at this time. WETA use IBM (PC) blade servers for rendering (report (http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2005/10/12/lord-of-the-rings-director-buys-more-blades)). There is no Mac version.

Dreamworks (http://www.dreamworksanimation.com/), meanwhile, have a contract with IBM's big competitor, HP, and uses their PC hardware for everything, front and back. Didn't you see the HP & Shrek commercials on TV?

Maybe Macs ruled the graphics and FX world back in 1998, but it's definitely no longer the case, so much for your "99%" figure. Can you imagine how much more LoTR would have cost to make, had Weta Digital tried doing it all on Macs? :eek: I have no problem recommending a Mac if it's the best tool for the job - which is what this thread was about, I thought? Applications such as GarageBand, Logic, etc. do make a powerful case, and Leopard sure looks pretty. Whether you'll get what you pay for is a personal decision. Not everyone wants to drive an car with an automatic gearbox, either.

I don't mean to go on, but it doesn't help the original poster if you make claims about inherent superiority of Macs that might have been plausible years ago, but don't stand up to scrutiny today. There's more to the PC than Windows - just ask Weta - so even if Vista deserves all the criticism it gets, it doesn't mean that a Mac is the answer.

[MidgetBoy]

I just bought myself a Dell PC.. besides the fact that I've had it for just under 24 hours and it's had about 30 BSODs. It's running nicely after I disabled half of the startup programs and services.

[Gonzo]

I have an iPod, and it works perfectly well with Vista (as it did with XP before). It does a job, and it's very user friendly, I can't say I love it though. iPhone has a slick interface, no doubt, but the feature set is limited and it's very expensive. And I don't 'love' PCs either. I prefer them to Macs. They do the job I want with no hassle and easily upgradeable.I love Plymouth Argyle Football Club...doesn't mean they're better than all the other football teams..

[TightSlot]

I switched to Mac about a year ago and haven't looked back. My computing needs are very low level by expert standards - a bit of skype, email, web browsing, photo management, music and podcasts, dvd watching and the odd letter/memo, spreadsheet and powerpoint. All of this is managed quite happily by the Mac with iWork and iLife and I keep a .mac account for the various on-the-road benefits it allows. The thing I like best is how good the macbook is for travel - it makes light work of hotel internet connections and skypes like a dream. It also gets good battery life for movies on the aircraft. So for me, the mac is perfect.

In my previous life with PC's, I enjoyed upgrading components and generally tinkering with the PC: If you are this kind of person then a PC is the only way to go. I also played a lot of games, and so did the kids, and once again, if this is the case, the PC has the legs of the mac by some measure. Finally, if you work in an environment where the office network requires various complicated or bespoke applications, then although Boot Camp/Parallels are an option, for a simple life a PC is probably better in my view.

IMHO what it boils down to is knowing what you want from the new computer. There will always be somewhat arcane discussions about the relative merits of windows/mac/linux operating systems on various hardware platforms. As a normal home user, you may assume that all of these OS's will work. Personally, I'd suggest a mac, because for me, it is the best solution at this time. You may be different...

[Shunter]

I've just bought a MacBook Pro. My old laptop finally died, and when looking round comparing specs I discovered the "macs cost more" thing to be pretty much untrue. Sure, you can get a half decent laptop from a "PC" vendor for less, but look what it's actually got inside it... once you start comparing like-for-like specification-wise, there really isn't that much difference.

I'm a Linux-user by preference, and Microsoft consultant by trade (the quality of their software is so poor it'll keep me in flying hours for years to come), and the MBP now runs triple-boot OSX/SuSE/Vista. The aesthetics of the machine, attention to detail and the thought put into its design are fantastic; simple things such as the use of quality, branded hardware with plentiful driver support instead of obscure rubbish from some half-baked upstart who only ever bothered to write drivers for Windows. I randomly discovered the other day that when you pop the battery out, it doesn't just suddenly die - that's right, it will retain enough juice for you to change the battery without rebooting!

Apple's strategy of moving to Intel chips and binning 30 year old legacy stuff like BIOS is a good one and holds substantial benefit for those who want to lever that technology. Think if it as ripping out all your old, traditional, knackered avionics and putting a G1000 in.

Vista, that's an interesting one. As computer use has grown over the years, so has the average capability of computer users to administer their systems. Yet conversely with Vista, Microsoft do their best to isolate you from doing what you want, instead forcing you to do what they think you want. It might keep joe public (who quantifies resource-hungry eye candy as progress) at home a little safer, but there are many very valid reasons why business adoption is going to be slow at best.

[+200 No Flags]

Being a relatively recent MAC-convert myself, I must confirm the old "Once you go Mac, you never go back" saying.

In the past, people were reluctant to jump from PCs to Macs for several reasons, the most important ones being fear of non-compatibility and old habits (which were mostly unfounded).
They were afraid that, after buying a Mac, they would be cut-off from the PC-using community and would no longer be able to exchange documents and files. Furthermore, many experienced PC-users had grown accustomed to a bunch of little programs they would no longer be able to use (although Mac-equivalents are were readily available).

Today, with the Intel-based Macs and the possibility of running Windows with all of its "little programs" (it's basically like having a PC-laptop with better looks), PC users are reassured. IF one day, they run into the need of running a piece of windows-based software, they can.

On a lighter note : Macs and OSX are great! Just go and get one, fool around with it and feel reborn!

Also, in his previous post, TightSlot might unwillingly have given the impression that Macs are no good for professional use and that use is restricted to internet, email, photos and DVD-watching. This, of course, is not (no longer) the case.

[TightSlot]

TightSlot might unwillingly have given the impression that Macs are no good for professional use and that use is restricted to internet, email, photos and DVD-watching. This, of course, is not (no longer) the case

Quite agree - sorry if I did so: In the original post that started the thread Serenity mentioned those kinds of functionality so I was pitching it there. Clearly the mac can do clever tek stuff also - those who need to do the tek stuff probably know that already, or at least know enough to discuss the relative O/S and hardware merits ad nauseam - Serenity appeared to be a more entry level user, as indeed I am.


:)

[Shunter]

OSX can get as techy as you want it to. Yes, it looks good, it's user-friendly, it's stable, it's well thought-out, but from a geek perspective it has one huge and insurmountably superior trump card:

bash

Sorry Microsoft, but for power users "command prompt" doesn't even come close.

OSX 1-0 Vista

[AlphaMale]

Last couple of posts speak for themselves really :8

Review (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9044618&sr=hotnews) from 'Computer World' on the reliability of a Mac v PC.

Review (http://ptech.allthingsd.com/20071025/leopard-faster-easier-than-vista/) from Walter S. Mossberg of 'The Wall Street Journal' on Leopard.

Review (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2191028,00.asp?sr=hotnews) from 'PC magazine' on Apple's iLife '08.

[tallsandwich]

Before conclusions are drawn, remember that command interface "bash" means Born Again SHell which is an extension of the Bourne Shell (sh) and maybe the Korn SHell (ksh) depending on how you look at it.

All these shells come from older versions of Unix from many platforms, Apple just stole the ideas from someone else by including a well known command line interface, so please stop this rubbish about M/S taking other people's ideas. Funny how none of the Mac heads know that Leopard took technology from Sun (with permission), as they are so blinded by their own righteousness that they can't imagine that Apple does EXACTLY the same thing as M/S.

I'm happy to let people choose their own OS, but just as I can't stand born again christians who act in a superior way once blinded by their faith - I also cannot abide born again Mac users who are so blinded by their Macs that they think Apple invented all the good things they find in OSX.

Go buy your Macs if you like, but get off the holier-than-thou soap-box-bandwaggon. You think it's so great you can pop into a virtual windows environment but from everything I have seen (trying to work with Mac heads) these virtual windows environments are pretty limited in their abilities; fine if you only need to run one windows app once in a while but otherwise quite pants.

I've worked on over 21 operating systems - each had its plus points, so anyone who trys to tell me that one is better than the other (the Mac or Linux is better than Windoze argument is as cr*p as the Airbus Boeing one) is just inexperienced.

Why are so Many Macs in the Movies we see, cos Apple pays for product placement just like Silicon Graphics paid to get their boxes in the Jurassic Park movie. Also most people seem to think Macs look good (not me) so that explains the "image" created for certain Mac using characters in films.

Please spread the word on Mac if you are happy, but don't do it by saying PCs always crash and Macs don't, or that M/S is evil and just steal ideas but Apple does not etc. Those are just shallow one sided urban myths :yuk:

I'd love Win* to be better, but boy, the choice it gives me is HUGE :ok:

edited for spelling:(

[AlphaMale]

Apple just stole the ideas from someone else

Please remind me where Apple stole the GUI from? :bored:

This PC v Mac can go on and on like the Integrated v Modular thread or Airbus v Boeing as you mentioned. Neither is better than the other ... they are simply different and appeal to a certain customer.

Try telling Singapore Airlines they made a mistake with the 380 and should have waited for a 787 ... I think they are happy with what they have.

But the fact of the matter is for everyday living, surfing the net, playing music, etc or even editing a picture or two in Photoshop editing a video in Final Cut then a Mac might be the reliable option.

I am sure the original poster has enough information here to pick what his best for his needs.

[+200 No Flags]

No need to get all worked up there, cowboy.

You think it's so great you can pop into a virtual windows environment but from everything I have seen (trying to work with Mac heads) these virtual windows environments are pretty limited in their abilities; fine if you only need to run one windows app once in a while but otherwise quite pants.First of all, it's not a VIRTUAL windows environment, it's an ACTUAL windows environment (on the Intel-based Macs anyway) and secondly :

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136649-page,3-c,notebooks/article.html

:E

[tallsandwich]

then a Mac might be the reliable option

Utterly one-sided typical Mac-fanitic BOLLOCKS - EITHER the PC or the Mac may be the reliable option. Depends how you manage your machine :ugh:

In this thread, one person quoted bash as being a Mac great thing and another ranted about M/S lack of innovation - I took the 2 items and showed that Mac just took an already well known shell and made it availlable on thier kit, thus killing both arguments DEAD. There may well be other shells such as ksh, csh also on your Macs, if not you Mac is rubbish for Command Line Interface choice. I don't care about this on my PC as if I need these shells I can GET THEM FOR FREE IF I WANT THEM :D :} :)

I never said the GUI was stolen (help me as to who in the world would even want to steal THAT pukey Mac GUI theme anyway!!!!!) so stop putting words into my mouth :=

Too right - the original poster has info to make a choice, balanced and accurate info.

[tallsandwich]

First of all, it's not a VIRTUAL windows environment, it's an ACTUAL windows environment

Depends which you run - the VIRTUAL Win environment which runs as a guest OS in Mac is pants, is the one I was talking about.

[tallsandwich]

+200 No Flags

I just looked at your link - I'm dying of laughter, AS IF you could run a test WITH ANY RELEVANCE to joe public about which laptop was the best performer - you have to specify the use scenario and what tools are installed and running.

If you trust that review you deserve all you get. I do perf tests for a living mate :ok:

[AlphaMale]

So if Mac take something and make it better is this a bad thing?

Microsloth 'steal' without the permission from Apple and just can't make it work.

As you said Apple 'took' the idea from Sun with permission and improved it.

There are plenty of things that have been taken and improved upon in this world, it's not a crime it's evolution.

As for the GUI being 'pukey' are you telling me you're still using DOS?

[Jet II]

Well personally having had Windows machines for years I've now converted entirely to Mac.

I still use MS Office and if I really need to use a program that isn't available on a Mac I simply run it on Parallels (the only program I actually run regularly is Front Page)

I do find that with Mac's I just get on and use them - I was getting a wee bit fed up with all the security issues and constant downloading of upgrades for virus scanners and the like on my PC.

But I suppose that as Mac's become more popular the security issues will grow and then I may make the leap to Linux....

[bnt]

I think I mentioned OS X's historic links to BSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Software_Distribution), via NEXTSTEP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEXTSTEP), on a different thread. Apple can take no credit for the underlying UNIX architecture, shells and core utilities.

Apple didn't write bash, and don't control it - it's Open Source software. It's not the only shell, but it is the most common one, on Linux systems too. The choice of shell is only really important if you do shell scripting: if you're just launching programs, you may as well use the 30-y.o. sh.
You can even get a bash environment for Windows, if you want it - see Cygwin (http://www.cygwin.com/). Microsoft haven't been standing still, either, they've developed PowerShell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_PowerShell), which is arguably more powerful than bash for e.g. text processing. I can see how Microsoft could be accused of "borrowing" bits of the OS X look for Vista, e.g. the sidebar. If so, they haven't done themselves any favours: Vista is also a bit pukey-looking in my estimation. :yuk:

As I said before - I think people should pick the best tool for the job, and that could well be a Mac. e.g. if I was a working musician who needed something to use on stage. It's a lot of money, though, so I'd recommend the original poster keeps his eyes open, and not be swayed by Apple's expert marketing. Claims that a Mac has any inherent superiority don't hold any water with me, and I'm especially put off by the patronising attitude that some Mac users have, as if I'm not "enlightened" because I haven't joined their cult. I like the idea of a UNIX-based system, but I have that already, on industry standard hardware, at no software cost: Linux. I'm not paying hundreds extra for a slightly fancier-looking GUI - which is really all that Apple is offering me. Your mileage may vary. :p

[AlphaMale]

So getting away from the deep IT issues. It's back to the original post;

Still using my old viao laptop and am looking to buy a new computer this xmas. I was looking at a PC until the bright spark in PCWorld showed off the new MAc to me, must admit most impressed.
Looks like the right sort of thing, just need it for internet, photos, music etc etc.

Lets keep the thread on subject guys, it's not a PC v Mac debate it's a computer buyer wondering if spending all that money is going to be worth it.

He's impressed with the Mac he saw in PC World (Of which most of the workers use Mac's too) and wants a computer for dealing with media files and surfing the net.

[Gonzo]

Serenity, are you looking for a desktop or laptop?

[tallsandwich]

If that's the spec (just needed for internet music and photos) a PC is better for a wider choice of both in applications and hardware provider. If poor choice of applications and hardware is an acceptable loss for this guy in order to get a gain in predicatability, then a Mac is better.

If the Mac users showed more balance in their enthusiam for Apple, then people like me would not feel the need to cut holes in their biased arguments of Mac being best, and the thread would not degenerate into PC vs Mac. Windows users are typically more mature in this type of debate as they are much more ready to accept Windows has faults. This is actually important when making a computer choice, as if you were buying a car and one salesman told you the good things about 2 cars and another told you all the bad things about the same 2 cars, then you would trust the latter, right?

Alpha Male - I never said Apple improved anything they licensed from Sun, I just noted that they took superior technolology (ZFS) from elsewhere in the same way as do M/S in order to try and put some level argument into this thread - but as there are not enough Mac bashers out there, this type of fact that shows Apple as being as bad as M/S goes largely unnoticed and unknown. If people can bash (no shell pun intended) M/S for this action then I can bash Apple for it too. Let me know via PM what Apple got from Sun and then "improved"....

[AlphaMale]

Can these people be wrong?

Apple v Microsloth (http://www.learnmoney.co.uk/spread-betting/sb-08.html)

Debunking the price myth: Apple vs. Dell (http://kurafire.net/log/archive/2006/04/25/debunking-the-price-myth-apple-vs-dell)

tallsandwich you're turning this back into a PC v Mac debate?!? I'm not sayig they impoved ZFS but using ZFS technology in a Mac is an improvement to the computer world IMO.

Would you say it's wrong that Audi are 'taking with permission' the 10-cylinder FSI engine from a Lamborghini to put it in an Audi S8? or would you tell them they are wrong to use parts from the Lamborghini Gallardo to put in an R8 (I'm sure you've seen the advert on TV).

If Sun and Apple work together to improve a product then that's good. If however Apple decided to take the ZFS idea and make a half hearted effort to copy it then sell it to the public as a beta version then that WOULD be wrong. aka Microsoft Vista.

[Serenity]

Well, i knew this would get some people a bit overheated, some of the arguements well over the top of my head.

Am looking for a desk top for reasonably basic use (as tightslot says).
Really wanted to know if Macs were worth the extra money, as i seem to be able to get a higher spec pc for less dosh. (may have just answered my own question)!!!

Thanks to all
:ok:

[Forkandles]

Want to buy a Mac Mini?

I'll do you a good price...

[AlphaMale]

Really wanted to know if Macs were worth the extra money

Compare a PC like for like with an Apple and you'll find the Apple as the same price if not cheaper.




Want to buy a Mac Mini?

I'll do you a good price...


This might not be a bad offer - I have a minimac and love it.

Only thing that is wrong with the above is it needs a £40 HD ;) that you can fit yourself as seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5DdtVHjI5M&feature=related)

MiniMac v Dell PC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-4ntavSVVc)

[Gonzo]

Alpha Male....

I think this example is illustrative.

This was without 'shopping around' the various PC manufacturers

I only visited the Mesh website for the PC, and the Apple website for the Mac:

20in iMac.
20in Monitor
2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo (dual core CPU)
1GB RAM
250GB HD
128MB ATi HD2400XT graphics

Price: 799 UKP (incl VAT)

Mesh:
22in Monitor
2.4GHz Core 2 Quad Q6600 (quad core CPU)
4GB RAM
500GB HD
256MB Nvidia 8500GT

Price 799 UKP (incl VAT)

I know which one looks like better value to me!

[AlphaMale]

I know which one looks like better value to me!
No competition is it really ... You'd have to be a very very silly boy not to opt for the Mac.

This, (http://www.pcreview.co.uk/forums/thread-15198.php) and this (http://www.itreviews.co.uk/discuss/1341) and this (http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/misc-systems/mesh-computers-1/reviews/) is the type of customer care you get with MESH.

Ohh and being a PC you get all the problems from the last couple of pages, BSOD, Crashing, Viruses etc

Speaking of Viruses ... how much did you budget for keeping the Mesh free from them? I guess if you add that to the price you end up seeing a Cheaper iMac :}

[Gonzo]

I too can use a search engine to find forum threads which discuss poor Apple service...I can also decide to buy my computer from Dell, or Evesham or any number of manufacturers. Of course, the clued up actually build one themselves if they're looking for a desktop machine. Even cheaper, and you are in direct control of the build quality.

Ohh and being a PC you get all the problems from the last couple of pages, BSOD, Crashing, Viruses etcAs I've said elsewhere, I've never had Vista crash on me, and only very, very rarely did XP crash before that. I was listening to a podcast the other day where Leopard owners were complaining about them having crashes to the BSOD, so that's no longer solely a PC problem!

Speaking of Viruses ... how much did you budget for keeping the Mesh free from them? I guess if you add that to the price you end up seeing a Cheaper iMac :}In total, I've spent about £45 in my life. That was years ago....I bought a copy of Norton. Used it until the subscription ran out. Since then I've used Freeware tools. Not that I've ever had a virus anyway.

[aidanf]

Apples and oranges, chalk and cheese, boeing and airbus..... and never the twain shall meet!!

For what it's worth I've been using Macs professionally for over 15 years and, yes I really like them / no, I wouldn't ever buy a PC. I do have to use a PC regularly and am frequently confounded by the lack of intuition built into the OS. For those of a techie disposition, I guess the ability to customise/fiddle with your computer makes the PC number 1, but I (like many others) care little for what happens inside the box, and only about doing what I need it to do - which, in my opinion, the mac does very well.

For those totally outside either camp, please be aware that you DON'T need to run a virtual version of windows on a mac to 'talk' to other PCs - you can buy 'Office for Mac' which runs in the Mac OS, and will run (...create...edit..) your Word, Excel, Powerpoint pieces perfectly well.

[AlphaMale]

I too can use a search engine to find forum threads which discuss poor Apple service...

Yehh Apple reliability would bring up http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2006502,00.asp

Once again, Apple and Sony are Readers' Choices, receiving some of the highest ratings for desktops. Once again, HP/Compaq and Lenovo/IBM receive some of the lowest.

In 2005, readers gave their desktops an overall score of 7.9 out of 10.This year, it's 7.8. Last year, the average score for likelihood of recommending was 7.7, and this year, it continues at 7.7. Look no further than Apple, the leader of the pack, whose overall score holds steady at 9.1. Last year, Apple's score on units needing repair was an impressive 11 percent—well below that of any other company in the survey.

You'll hear more positive things about Apple Macs than you will a PC. I've spoken to a couple of PC Techies and they said it's good PC are unreliable as it keeps them in a job, if we all used Macs they'd have nothing to fix.

Of the 8/9/10 PC's I've had over the years they've all needed TLC to work and often need repairs, I've had 18 months trouble free with my Mac. I don't work for them and I hated them when I was a die hard PC gaming fan and thaught Mac's were for hippy gimps ... Guess I was wrong, I can only pass on what I know and until my Mac plays up then I have nothing bad to say about it.

[Gonzo]

I can only pass on what I know and until my Mac plays up then I have nothing bad to say about it.

Yes, and so can I: It's where people start making blanket claims about them that things go downhill.

I've used Macs on and off for years, At the moment I can never see a time when I'd buy one, I just don't get on with the OS at all, although I've not had a good go at Leopard yet. I might consider one if they ever bring out a desktop that can play Company of Heroes! :}

[AlphaMale]

As said before it's horses for courses.

I wouldn't knock anybody for enjoying their PC, I did for 15+ years but got so frustrated I thought I'd give the dark side a go. Like the original poster on here I didn't know if the Mac was worth the 'extra' money but was reassured by the Mac converts that it's worth every penny.

I took the plunge and have never looked back, I do however still own a PC to do my ASP.net work on and I was going to use it for FS2004 with all my add ons that I bought a couple of months back. (I've not had the time unfortunately to load them on ... plus my Stick has a different connector to what is on my PC).

I have an Xbox 360 to play games on so the PC was last used about 4 months ago :bored:

You pick whatever you most comfortable with at the end of the day, it might take you a week or two to get used to the mouse having only 1 button (you can just get a 2 button mouse), and there are a couple of things that you need to do differently - but it's not brain surgery ... apparently that is hard?

But for me, my basic MiniMac 1.66 Duo with 512Mb ram is holding up well. My works PC is having a RAM upgrade tomorrow to 2Gb and my Mac will be 1Gb Ram in the new year.

I can't find a fault with my Mac like many others, but that's my fault? :p

[Saab Dastard]

All,

I think that there are always going to be those for Macs and those for PCs.

I am pleased that the debate in this particular thread has remained largely free of the kind of unreasoned "other camp" bashing that often (usually?) accompanies the "discussion". For this you all deserve credit for your restraint. :ok:

Be that as it may, I remain dubious of the value of this kind of thread, however innocently started. This is a couple of pages of time, effort and bandwidth that has - ultimately - served little purpose, other than to demonstrate the validity of my first statement. And yes, I do have to read the posts!

In the future, therefore, do not be surprised if the "Great Apple Mac / Intel PC / Jobs/ Gates Debate" gets nipped in the bud, or posts deleted if they cross the line between relevant, pertinent debate and point proving / willy-waving, etc. And persistently robust offenders (if any) may be asked to leave the ball-pit for a cooling-off period.

Serenity, I hope that you have got some interesting views here, although - by your own admission - some of it has been "over your head", and that your purchasing decision has been made easier.

I am not going to lock this thread, as there has been useful and pertinent advice and information, and hopefully more to come, with the same level of maturity and restraint shown thus far - mostly! ;)

SD

[Gonzo]

Boeing are rubbish! Airbus pwns!

No?

Alright then...................:}

Apologies for the thread drift....

Have you decided Serenity?

[Serenity]

Well, all very interesting, but due to limited funds currently i`m opting for a pc. In a few years time with more funds , and maybe greater technical advancements, i may very well be tempted to the dark side!

Next question - HP, Acer, Mesh, Evesham etc ??????????????:}

[tallsandwich]

You'll find someone who has had a bad experience with all of them, but for what it's worth, I work for a small company (under 100 people) that has stuck with HP laptops for a long time; no one is telling them what to do, no corporate policy interferes, so if the reliability experience was not good they would have simply changed by now.

The only other thing to say is that I find that that the models that are available on the HP site are not always easy to find in their chosen retailers, so the online shopping experience is really very weak compared to sites that allow you to configure online what you want - and you rely on what is in stock from 3rd party retaliers. It seems only a few models are available online direct from HP.

[AlphaMale]

Next question - HP, Acer, Mesh, Evesham etc ??????????????

Homebuild :confused:

Gonzo could make you a much better PC than 'Tiny' or 'Time' etc and you customise it to what you want.

Don't want to start a debate on Homebuilt PC v Factory PC ;)

There are some good packages out these that include screen / keyboard / mouse / desktop / software / printer etc but it's whatever you need. You don't get anything for free so guess how much went on the PC components.

Warranty isn't an issue with homebuilds as the parts each comes with a warranty. I had a component that failed on me (HD) from a faulty batch and I had it replaced.

Good luck with your PC, Very disappointed I must say :rolleyes: lol

It's only a bit of fun and a debate that's been going for years and will still go on for years. :p

Good luck.

[tallsandwich]

It will indeed continue, until one of us converts :{:sad::}

[AlphaMale]

It will indeed continue, until one of us converts

Quite Ironic really, I posted my last message then saw that you'd say go for a HP Laptop out of the companies listed.

I was going to write "Finally me and tallsandwich are going to agree!!!" but as I went to post it my works PC died. i.e.

Shut down and won't re-load. I have an error message saying:

r corrupt:
Windows root>\system32\hal.dll
lease re-install a copy of the above file.

So I'm now computerless, lucky my employers don't use Macs or I'd never get a rest ;)

What I was going to add though is I'd probably go for a Sony VAIO if I had to get myself a PC Laptop. (Maybe the Sony Vaio VGN-AR190G ?)

[ddigiusto]

mac or pc? just changed to mac 2 month ago, going back to a pc?
never ever, this mac just works and works and works, not a single problem:) and so user friendly.
kind regards

[nespresso lover]

Got my first MS-Dos in '86, my first Windows in '92 and my first MacBook in 2007 - I WON'T GO BACK!

[Blacksheep]

Think Applications.... Hmmm.... Let me see.

iTunes
Word processing
Spreadsheets
Adobe Acrobat
Make presentations
Watch movies
View and edit photographs
Browse the internet
Send & receive email

Is there anything there a Mac can't do?

XP keeps locking up my applications, does mysterious things on my behalf without my permission, downloads things without asking and generally behaves as if it owns the place. Like a small clone of Microshaft actually. Its my computer and I'll do as I like with it, d'ya hear Bill?

I too am fed up with the Microsoft experience and I'd really like an impartial comparison. Unfortunately the partisanship makes it really difficult to decide. At the moment my clapped out IBM notebook with XP Pro does most of what I need but the peripherals are wearing out and it will eventually expire. In the meantime it'll make a good replacement for my old Win 98 desktop. So, I'm tempted to try a Mac as my next notebook just to get that impartial comparison. I'll probably post a report once I've had a chance to try the Mac.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Word processing
Spreadsheets
Make presentations

These are the areas not covered in a basic purchased Mac. Either run your old suite natively in Windows with 'bootcamp,' provided within the operating system or one of the neater, paid for, solutions like VM's fusion. About 50 quid I think.

Pilots being pilots just get a free download of OpenOffice Or Neo Office to run on the Mac OS. The Mac suite, iWork, costs 50 quid. That's not an education price but full retail. Family won't touch Word after 10 minutes using the compatible Mac equivalent, 'Pages.' Those Word users who get moist at the thought of creating a new macro won't like it.

Watch movies
View and edit photographs
Browse the internet
Send & receive email

All integrated in the basic installation. I use the one's supplied as my daily defaults with one exception.

Most road warrior Mac users do go for one particular add on for watching movies. VLC - highly recommended and free download. Open source and constantly updated.

Obviously there's a significant number of third party browsers as well with Firefox and Opera being popular additions to the one included. They're purely down to personal choice. We could debate the differences all day but they work - it's down to one feeling right for you. Our stats tell us that the vast majority stick with the built in one, just like PC users.

Same goes for mail - but folks are very different in how a mail system should look to them or out of habit are wedded in some way to webmail. Different strokes for each individual.

Rob

[bnt]

Think Applications.... Hmmm.... Let me see.
...
Is there anything there a Mac can't do?
Is that what you thought I meant? No, what I meant was: examine the applications you want/need, and pick the computer for those. If a Mac fits the bill, and you can afford the bill, go for it.

It doesn't fit my requirements: why does that make me, in AlphaMale's words, "a very silly boy"? I know it's a mild insult, but it's still unnecessary. I'm not anti-Mac; but I am anti-lock-in, anti-lazy-assumption, anti-ignorance, and anti-smugness. Apples are not the only fruit. :E

[ORAC]

Please remind me where Apple stole the GUI from? :confused: PARC (Palo Alto Research Center, Inc.), formerly Xerox PARC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC)

The first successful commercial GUI product was the Apple Macintosh, which was heavily inspired by PARC's work; Xerox was given Apple stock in exchange for engineer visits and an understanding that Apple would create a GUI product. Much later, in the midst of the Apple v. Microsoft lawsuit in which Apple accused Microsoft of violating its copyright by appropriating the use of the "look and feel" of the Macintosh GUI, Xerox also sued Apple on the same grounds. The lawsuit was dismissed because Xerox had waited too long to file suit, and the statute of limitations had expired........

[Blacksheep]

Apples are not the only fruit.Lemons anybody?

I'm not anti- anything either, but when I'm to my eyeballs in problem solving, getting my PC to do what I want it to do, instead of it undoing my set-up because it thinks it knows better. Or else when it starts downloading a load of crap while I'm on-line, and freezes the browser. Or any of its other odd unexplained tricks, I do often wonder if something else might serve me better and maybe respect my privacy.

PCs seem to have been taken over by New Labour. They know best... :rolleyes:

[bnt]

Once again, you're equating the PC with the worst experiences Microsoft users have. If everyone had the same negative experiences, there would be an understandable rush away from their software. Why don't I have the same experiences with my old XP system? Is it because I've learned a few things along the way - such as which hardware to choose, which stuff to install, how to protect a network? It's no harder than driving a car with a manual gearbox, doing basic service on it, and knowing which fuel to put in the tank. (Oh, wait - bad example, no-one services their own car any more, do they?)

They've set themselves up for a fall with Vista, I think, but (as I said earlier) that does not mean Apple is the answer. I am moving away from Microsoft, gradually, as my requirements change. (I want a light, efficient system, not Vista's bloatware.) I will not, however, buy in to the Apple cult, for reasons I gave earlier.

[AlphaMale]

why does that make me, in AlphaMale's words, "a very silly boy"? I know it's a mild insult, but it's still unnecessary. I'm not anti-Mac; but I am anti-lock-in, anti-lazy-assumption, anti-ignorance, and anti-smugness.

Take a chill pill Bill! ... It was meant as a joke and if anything I'd assume it would get Gonzo's back up, lucky he sees this thread on a mature level then.

Word Processing
Spreadsheets
Make Presentations

These are the areas not covered in a basic purchased Mac. Either run your old suite natively in Windows with 'bootcamp,' provided within the operating system or one of the neater, paid for, solutions like VM's fusion. About 50 quid I think.


I think £50 is a pretty good 'legal' investment; I was impressed with the little things with my Mac that you pay a premium for a PC. I bet the PC Gonzo compared to a Mac didn't come with built in Bluetooth, Fire wire ports and 2.0 USB ports as standard?

You can see where the PC makers cut corners to fool the public you can actually get a PC for the price of a Mac. :E

Maybe having to upgrade the PC to a FireWire 400, FireWire 800, 5 x USB 2.0 ports and making the PC Bluetooth would neutralise the £50 spent on 'Office for Mac'. (Keep in mind the FireWire 400 and FireWire 800 will set you back £20 and £40 respectively).

You'll still be short of a built in iSight etc by I wont put the boot in any more than I need to ;)

(There was me thinking this thread had gone to sleep)

[Gonzo]

I bet the PC Gonzo compared to a Mac didn't come with built in Bluetooth, Fire wire ports and 2.0 USB ports as standard?

You rang? :E

No bluetooth, but 6x USB2.0 ports, 2x Firewire (not sure which flavour), Gigabit LAN and memory card reader, the DVD Writer has Lightscribe.

And it takes a great deal to get my back up....... I'm so laid back that usually I can't see over my hips.....

Not that it matters, but IMHO bluetooth is :yuk:. Although the way the new Apple iPhone headset partners with the iPhone is cool.

[AlphaMale]

LOL - Same here, I remember my history teacher telling my mother on parents day that I'm too laid back and need a rocket up my a*s.

That isn't a bad spec PC then (6x USB 2.0 ports, 2x Firewire). The PC's I have purchased in the past keep needing to be upgraded for me to work more efficiently.

I like my bluetooth as I have a wireless mouse and keyboard and I can send stuff to my mobile with no problem, it's backup my address book with no problems (instantly) and if I want to change my display/ring-tone etc then I just send it. Much easier than having to get out a data cable.

My last few phones that have had cameras on them never get photos backed up onto a PC as it's too much of an effort with software and cables. No excuse with the Mac so I think I'll get a 5 Megapixel phone next.

[Gonzo]

I like my bluetooth as I have a wireless mouse and keyboard and I can send stuff to my mobile with no problem, it's backup my address book with no problems (instantly) and if I want to change my display/ring-tone etc then I just send it. Much easier than having to get out a data cable.

I don't think I've ever connected my phone to my PC. I just whip out the card and plug that in to the PC get the incriminating photos from it.....I have a Sony Eric K810 at the moment, so I'll probably swap to a K850 next month when I can upgrade.

Oooops. Off topic again!!! :}

[Mac the Knife]

Parallels Desktop allows you to run XP/Vista in a virtual machine on you Intel Mac.

I installed it on my MacBook basically because I've used Paint Shop Pro so much and have a big collection of .psp images that I don't want to convert.

Flawless install of XP and runs like a charm - you'd never know it was in a VM. Quick too.

I did bump up the Mac's memory to 2GB though, just on general principles.

:ok:

[AlphaMale]

Seems a lot of people have Macs and have had no problems :cool:

[scruggs]

Less than a month ago now, I purchased a brand spanking new top of the line Dell PC. Today it sits dormant on my desk after a hard disk failure. For me it's the last straw.

I've used MACs at work now for a while and love 'em! So, as soon as Dell collect the heap of sh:mad:t sat on my desk and refund my card, I shall be ordering a MAC.

My initial thought was to go for a desktop MAC PRO. However, any thoughts on the very sleak looking iMac?

Cheers

S

[AlphaMale]

I have access to a MacPro and my parents (family computer) and it's fast! Has plenty of space for upgrades too, I think it has 8 slots for the RAM for example. We have 4 x 1Gb RAM sticks.

The cost of these PowerMacs / MacPro's are expensive but you get a very very powerful bit of kit!

I've always had issues with anything that has something else built into it. TV/Video combi, TV/DVD Combi, DVD/VHS combi and so on and I'd hate to fall into the trap of having a broken display on an iMac stopping me from using the computer within it. Main reason for opting for a minimac and the cost of a PowerMac. Although I will upgrade to a PowerMac when finances are not so tight or if my Mac should ever play up ... No signs of that so far :zzz:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Hope you get a computer of any type that you like scruggs.

It appears the Dell wasn't a DOA and you got a month out of it.

Of the 5 Macs and 1 PC in the Towers household the only failure in 7 years has been a hard disc made by some seedy back street clowns called Hitachi. It didn't seem to like a life of constant pressure changes.

Components go across all platforms and brand names - it's often just one of those things in a world of mass production, sampling and batch testing.

Bino's disappointment with Apple backup in Oz mentioned here recently should make us all think hard about service above and beyond the basic law and irrespective of the brand and OS.

I'd strongly suggest UK users have a long hard look at getting a machine from the John Lewis Partnership. A huge reputation, well deserved if the shop locations suit. Free delivery for on line ordering - the relevant part of their terms follow.

I'd also point out that their tellies get five years
NB: I am not a John Lewis partner nor have I ever played one on TV.:uhoh:

Rob

Guarantees

We always honour the manufacturer's guarantee period where offered; these are usually one year unless otherwise stated. Please see individual product pages for details. In addition to the first year manufacturer’s guarantee on large electrical domestic appliances, computers, non-portable hi-fi equipment, DVD and VHS players/recorders and camcorders, we provide a free second year service guarantee

[scruggs]

5 Macs and 1 PC! I knew in the end it's impossible for pilots to hide the profits :}

I think you've nailed it actually PT, I was lucky to get a month out of it. The hard disk in question was made by Samsung. I phoned Dell up and asked if there was anyway I could recover the data on it. They told me that because of something to do with the RAID config, all data was lost. I asked them if I could keep the knackered HD to see if I could take it somewhere for repair - they said nope! When I challenged them on this, they said they wouldn’t replace the HD unless I agreed that they could take to old one away. So...I told them to just come and collect the lot, and give me my cash back. They reluctantly agreed.

Oh well, last time I shall be using Dell that's for sure.



S

[AlphaMale]

I've just had a phone call from our IT contactors that my PC's HD has gone and the data that was on it has gone with it :bored:... most of my graphics are on the company server but that's not the point.

Don't you just hate it when the HD gives up the ghost :rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Well, whatever you choose I hope you have a good look at the small print scruggs. At least Dell will take it back, albeit with significant displeasure on your side just as Binos faced regarding an Apple repair.

Most Mac users update machinery at a much slower rate than others. The software and OS seem much more able to keep daily use fluid on an old machine whatever the benchmarks say.

Once on the dark side though getting a new Mac is one way the evil ones keep us in the fold. Start a new one and the screen asks if you have an old mac. If so please connect by firewire and restart it. Click one button and it transfers the lot - all data, settings, preferences, software, addresses, pics, music, vids, dodgy bookmarks Etc in the original folder topography you created over the years.

A very sneaky way of getting us 'normal' folks to upgrade more often than non power users/ enthusiasts usually do.

Like changing banks it's traditionally all such a pfaff that you put it off.

Anyway, what is it that you do that suggests the desktop/tower to you? Fastest video card and most memory? Games,flight simming, video rendering, large scale stills manipulation or music production are the only areas I can think of where you'd notice the extra speed. Or you need a third party monitor with guaranteed colour gamut and measurement? With the rate of change in memory architecture, connections and slots I don't feel they're nearly as future proof as we used to consider them.

Oh, and slipping back to John Lewis and tellies again. They don't give any of this HD Ready, Almost Ready, Might be Ready if you are partially sighted tosh. It's 1080p or it ain't in the list.

It's OK - I'll thread ban myself :=

Rob

[pilotbear]

Regarding spreadsheets etc as mentioned.

Microsoft office 2004 Entourage for mac works very well for all this stuff.
:)

[bnt]

Less than a month ago now, I purchased a brand spanking new top of the line Dell PC. Today it sits dormant on my desk after a hard disk failure. For me it's the last straw.
Um... neither Dell nor Apple (nor Microsoft) make hard drives. They are made by a few companies only: Western Digital, Seagate (incl. Maxtor), Fujitsu, Hitachi (formerly IBM), Samsung.

You have absolutely no justification for thinking a Mac's drive will be any more reliable than a PC's. Do you know who made the drive that failed, and the drive you'd get if you buy a Mac?

(I used to support storage systems, so if I wanted to I could bore y'all silly about "infant mortality" and the bathtub curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve)... but I won't.)

[Saab Dastard]

scruggs,

My sympathy for your loss!

But do bear in mind that the HDs in Apples and the HDs in PCs are actually identical. Same form factor, same interfaces, same manufacturers.

The reality is that you are just as likely to have a HD failure in a Mac as a PC.

SD

[NeoDude]

How can Macs be better than PCs? They only have 1 damn mouse button!!!!!

[scruggs]

Um... neither Dell nor Apple (nor Microsoft) make hard drives. They are made by a few companies only: Western Digital, Seagate (incl. Maxtor), Fujitsu, Hitachi (formerly IBM), Samsung.

Um...bnt, if you actually read my last, you would have read I stated my hard drive was made by Samsung :rolleyes:.

S

[longarm]

My mighty mouse appears to have 4, plus a scroll wheel!

[AlphaMale]

Um...bnt, if you actually read my last, you would have read I stated my hard drive was made by Samsung

PC users ... what can we do with them :p ... Failed to read the post and jammed up - that's the user not the PC by the way :ok:

[bnt]

OK, and so what if Apple use Samsung too? That was my point, but I guess you didn't bother to think beyond pointing out my mistake, eh? Focus, people... :rolleyes:

[scruggs]

No, I got your point thanks. I'm fully aware I could find myself with a MAC with the same model/make HD, but it's as much to do with the shoddy customer service DELL have provided since the HD failing - which to be honest has been nothing short of appauling. Granted Samsung made the HD, but I purchased the PC from DELL, so my issues lie with them.

Anyway, all being well I'll be placing an order for an iMac in the not too distant future once DELL have refunded me for the very expensive paper weight currently sat on my desk at home.

Cheers

S

[frostbite]

Not making excuses for Dell in any way but I would guess their insistence on the return of the faulty unit is because without it they are unable to claim from the manufacturer.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Apple appear to be having drive reliability problems with current MacBooks - see The Register (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/11/27/apple_looks_at_macbook_hdds/).

[Tigs2]

Got a new Mac book Pro recently. They are absolutely awesome, and it can run any windows application. Further if you live near london, the after sales support and tuition you get at the Apple store in Regents Street is fantastic.

[scruggs]

Just realised as well that becasue I work at a UK University, I will get a nice little educational discount too. I've just priced up the iMac I'd like, and the discount saves me over 300 quid :}

S

[AlphaMale]

Very nice!

[Slopey]

I'm converted to the iMac - but I run Vista on it with BootCamp.

Works perfectly - looks stunning - great screen.

Leopard is ok - I'm a NeXTStep afficionado so I love the finder, Entourage is nice with it's project focus, but Word and Excel ain't quite right on it. Running XP or Vista under parallels is great, but Safari occasionally renders things wierd (not its fault probably more the page optimised for IE).

The new keyboards don't have enough travel for me, so I'm using a Logitech one - no problems there either.

Decent machine, decent performance, looks the mutts - runs Windows if you want - it's all good!

Mind you, with a little creative patching you can install Lepoard on vanilla intel hardware, so you could always give that a go if you want to dabble in Mac without the hardware premium! ;)