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alexmac
14th Nov 2007, 15:20
Report of a Warton bird, Tonka, divert Marham having lost his rear seater... SAR assets airborne... hope both crew are safe & well. A/c landed safely...

hot_spud
14th Nov 2007, 15:56
Not sounding too good though. My thoughts are with the family also for the front ender.

alexmac
14th Nov 2007, 16:06
Hot_Spud's thoughts echoed here too... thoughts with everyone involved.

MostlyHarmless
14th Nov 2007, 16:21
Fantastic news, How can such a thing happen?

*click*
Whirrrr
BANG
Woosh!

Is the normal chain of events :)

advocatusDIABOLI
14th Nov 2007, 16:39
Hope all are OK. 'How could it happen'? Well, self ejection with 'rear' selected on the command eject or an un-latched 'Top Latch'.

If the a/c landed without it's canopy, and the 'rail' out- see 1. If it landed with the (Rear) perspex missing, and no 'rail' -see 2

Happened before, Civil JP??

I truely hope all is well.

Advo

advocatusDIABOLI
14th Nov 2007, 16:51
Oh, there's one other possibility. Activation of the 'Man Sep' system. Don't really want to go there........

Waiting for news, but thoughts are with all involved.

Fly Safe Mates,

Advo

Op_Twenty
14th Nov 2007, 16:57
'My thoughts are with the family also for the front ender'

Why do we always do this? We fly jets, sometimes things go wrong, it's a lovely sentiment but sometimes we take it too far. No offence but let's find out what happened. Just say ' glad the chaps are ok.' No thoughts for family etc, we are still military here, let's let the family deal with it in their own time...

14th Nov 2007, 16:58
Sorry chaps but don't hold your breath waiting for a happy ending on this one.

Wedge
14th Nov 2007, 17:02
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/7095214.stm

Civvy crew from BAE systems.

Op_Twenty
14th Nov 2007, 17:11
Man sep needs the handle to be pulled on the GR..., with the above on that one...

forget
14th Nov 2007, 17:14
What a thoughtless and pointless post. :confused:

Perhaps 'crab' was simply trying to convey, to those most closely involved and who know what he does, the reality of the situation.

Never Alert
14th Nov 2007, 17:19
Already posted AA.

Nothing wrong with the post crab, thanks for the heads up.

Shell Management
14th Nov 2007, 17:23
http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=EDPOnline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED14%20Nov%202007%2017%3A57%3A17%3A513

advocatusDIABOLI
14th Nov 2007, 17:36
Hmmm, Op 20, not thinking of the Hawk are you? Certainly doesn't in the F3 (Proved in 1991-ish). Same Seat, Yes?

Advo

gareth herts
14th Nov 2007, 18:08
MOD press conference scheduled for 8pm apparently

advocatusDIABOLI
14th Nov 2007, 18:16
Oh dear. Also, just heard they have found the seat, But calling off the search for tonight.

I hope things are being reported with the 'usual' accuracy.

Keep Safe,

Advo

abbotyobs
14th Nov 2007, 18:22
On BBC news 24, reports that they have found the Navigator dead in a field.

terrible news

RIP and thoughts are with the family.

30mRad
14th Nov 2007, 18:42
The news now reported on BBC and the impending MOD news conf is sad news indeed. My condolences to the family.

I can't believe that the 2nd post on this thread gave such good news. People REALLY should learn not to post anything until they know the absolute truth.

I've seen it happen in ops as well - and it's soul destroying to all concerned. Lets not have rumour and speculation and mis-reporting.

RIP and I'll raise a glass in your memory tonight.

Tigs2
14th Nov 2007, 18:52
Crab
Sorry chaps but don't hold your breath waiting for a happy ending on this one
EXACTLY the right post so early on in such an incident.(can every one please learn from this!!)
Insty66
What a thoughtless and pointless post.:mad:
What a thoughtless and pointless post.:mad::mad::mad:
Thoughts and condolences with all the families. Please understand that comments on here are often made in haste in a hope to bring good news.
RIP

Tigs2
14th Nov 2007, 19:23
Never
Understood. Quote deleted! I understand how it happens! When i crashed into the North Sea, the boss locked everyone in the squadron and only allowed phone access to him and sqn ops, to ensure they new the exact story, and whether i was ok, before disinformation got out... top bloke!!The internet means info travels fast these days, but in cases like this everyone should be the LAST to post, not the first. I once remember two Harriers crashing. One died, one survived, the Staish told the wives the wrong outcome about their husbands. Had to go back to both and say sorry 'yours is alive, yours is ....etc'. When these things happen, hold your breath and wait. I hope Ops are given a thorough and severe debrief.

30mRad
14th Nov 2007, 19:24
Assume by your reply that you're a serving member of the RAF. You should know better than to report stuff from official channels during this kind of incident. Plus Ops shouldn't be releasing stuff like that until everything is positively confirmed. Outrageous behaviour from all concerned.

plans123
14th Nov 2007, 20:54
30mRad - sorry have I missed something here? where does it even hint that Ops gave any information away?

RIP fella

30mRad
14th Nov 2007, 21:00
A comment made earlier by the poster who reported that the guy was ok - believe they've been removed now.

RIP

Silent Witness
14th Nov 2007, 21:06
How very awful, and what a tragic loss. One has to consider the top latch lock theory. Someone has already mentioned the JP incident earlier, and I have to say I agree. Lets wait however until the chaps in the know have studied all the evidence available. A very special man has passed today, and I am truly upset by this incident. My very best, clear skies my friend.

Tigs2
14th Nov 2007, 21:11
ALL!!!
those that jumped on the band wagon in a bid to give us all info that they heard from 'higher' and we thought 'respected' providers of info, were let down dreadfully. They (on Prune) have learnt (please do not hold it against them), I just hope that the higher authorities have learnt:mad::mad::mad:
Now. please forget all after. Lets get on to the main purpose of this thread (Or perhaps the originator may want to delete the whole thread and start again,:D ....a good idea i think as many people are feeling pretty bad!) Which is:
Sincere condolences to the family and colleagues of the person concernd.
Tigs2:(

30mRad
14th Nov 2007, 21:20
Concur Tigs2.

My thoughts are with all involved at Marham, particularly the friends and family, but as I said in a PM to NA, it will have affected everyone there and my heart goes out to you all.

We have lost another good man.

RIP

Swept
14th Nov 2007, 21:22
All readers, civvie and mil, should be aware that at Lossie today the full and correct procedure was followed. The news blackout is still being followed and nothing has been confirmed by our hierachy to us mere plebs!

That is the way it should be, limited info distribution to those who need to know! When names and further info is released to the press tomorrow only then should and will we be told.

This is showing true respect to the nearest and dearest. All involved in mil and civvie flying who may, god forbid, be in this position in the future would want the same procedure to be followed to protect their family.

Silent Witness
14th Nov 2007, 21:23
Well said Swept.

Sven Sixtoo
14th Nov 2007, 21:24
Tigs

I will go along with your last.

To get technical / historical for a moment.

I believe the midair misreported dead vs alive was a pair of Jags out of Lossie in early 80s (I was on the SAR flt at the time but not directly involved). I believe it involved a change of airframe post sign-out and a t-bird being flown single seat. One of the results was that SAR crews NEVER report accident results by R/T. Obvious in hindsight but I daresay it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Sven

Tiger_mate
14th Nov 2007, 21:29
... or it could have been the pair of Harriers at otterburn. That there are similar tales indicates a need for utmost discretion until facts are known, for we all know what assume concludes in....

I concur that this particular thread would benefit from deletion and a tribute thread launched. Perhaps somebody who knows the individual may wish to press the appropriate buttons.

RIP

Nil nos tremefacit
14th Nov 2007, 21:47
In the mid-80s the wives of the Chinook crew on FI found out their husbands were dead when it was announced on BFBS in Germany. You'd have hoped that lessons were learnt, but as there is no collective memory people will have to reinvent the wheel..........

RIP

RileyDove
14th Nov 2007, 21:54
Regards the incident at Marham - no need to speculate - it's being investigated and I am sure appropriate action will be taken if it's found there have been any faillings .
Heartfelt wishes to all at Marham.

advocatusDIABOLI
14th Nov 2007, 22:49
Not to disrepect this thread- But- RileyDove! Out of order! (And Wrong)

Now, be quiet, think, and understand.......

Advo

MOSTAFA
15th Nov 2007, 06:48
Your post IMHO was spot on Jon.

OCCWMF
15th Nov 2007, 07:48
Reckon this bickering is really helping.

15th Nov 2007, 08:04
I posted what I posted and when because of the second post (now deleted) that erroneously reported the safe recovery of the nav. I personally took the call from the ARCC in the ops room at Wattisham and I followed the RCS closely since we had ownership of the SARop. Therefore what I posted was a. in the best of intent without disclosing any details and b. based on actual fact not supposition.

Very many condolences to the family.

ASRAAM
15th Nov 2007, 09:32
Crab,
For what its worth I took your post exactly as you intended. I also think most sensible and reasonable folk would too.
I suspect (and hope) that those who raged against Crab's post will reconsider when the emotion of the event calms a little.
There is no point in shooting the messenger, especially when he is doing his best to let you down gently.
ASRAAM

Zoom
15th Nov 2007, 09:38
Why don't we have a single, large thread so that people who wish to post condolences can do so by adding their names to a list whenever there is a loss such as this? That way we can stop threads like this one deteriorating from factual and informative to dreary, attention-getting chest-beating. I think it is pretty obvious that anyone involved in aviation is shocked and saddened by such tragedies so why do we need to wail so publicly?

BEagle
15th Nov 2007, 10:11
Zoom - concur totally.

But don't forget it might not be that easy for many close friends/colleagues. So we shouldn't generalise.

PPRuNe Pop
15th Nov 2007, 10:48
The best way IMHO is to avoid speculation and slagging off those who, for one reason or another, and probably with good intent, chose to post their thoughts. There have been many worse than those here.

However, it was discussed but a short time ago that condolences come first and this should be borne in mind before posting.

My own condolences go out to the families and friends.

aluminium persuader
15th Nov 2007, 17:39
Just seen the BBC news - some spotter recorded the r/t between the pilot & YM, gave (or sold?) it to the BBC & they've just broadcast it. I thought that was illegal here?

ap.

RIP

WillieTonka
15th Nov 2007, 21:13
It's no longer possible to operate the man sep handle without first pulling the seat firing handle, so there could not be a repeat of the harrier man sep accident of a few years ago.

Double Zero
15th Nov 2007, 22:25
It wasn't supposed to be possible then, either.

MightyGem
18th Nov 2007, 14:47
I thought that was illegal here?

Well sort of: See here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=206063)

potatowings
18th Nov 2007, 21:07
My condolences to the friends and family and my thoughts go out to all who are involved.

Red Top Comanche
1st Dec 2007, 00:56
I was chatting with some ex BAE guys and we couldn't understand how this happened. Did he eject, fall out or what. Does anyone know or is it confidential.


Condolences to his family.

marty1468
1st Dec 2007, 08:17
HI,
I'm an ex armourer (F/A-18's RAAF and Tornado BAe in Saudi). I'm thinking that the aircraft has just come out of servicing, hence the BAe crew and someone hasn't locked the seat onto the rails properley. I'm thinking someone could be in deep doo doo over this one. Sorry to hear of the loss of a good man over probably someone's stuff up.

Alber Ratman
1st Dec 2007, 08:32
Marty1648

There is a full board of Inquiry happening on this matter.

You have every right of freedom of speech to speculate publicily.

However I would ask you to refrain on guessing what happened (even if you are well versed on the construction of the Tornado escape system).

marty1468
1st Dec 2007, 08:47
Sorry Alber R,

No harm intended. Just my thoughts on the most probable in answer to Red Top Comanche's post. Wont happen again...

HallamPilot
1st Dec 2007, 17:27
There are a few posts laying the blame squarely on the shoulders of the plumbers who fitted the seats.

A quick Google will bring up several hits about top latch failure.

Perhaps those posters will take a look at Lt Keith Gallagher's partial ejection from an A-6.

They will find the top latch window failed due to repetitive stresses induced by negative G.

Further checks revealed several other ejection guns with questionable top latch windows.

PLEASE, stop speculating and apportioning blame when you have no evidence to do so.

The guys at Marham are feeling sh*tty enough without having to read your kangaroo court judgements.

I'm all for free speech, but please wait for the findings of the BOI before slagging off the engineers.

Soapbox now back under the stairs.

Hallampilot

Once A Brat
3rd Dec 2007, 12:21
HallamPilot,

I agree totally with the second half of your post asking people to stop speculating.....

Pity you didn't take your own advice with the first half of the post where you talk about historic top latch failures that are largely irrelevant to what has unfortunately happened.:=

A top latch failure is just one of the many failure modes/circumstances that could have been the cause.....

please guys let's stop being 'instant experts' and surmising based on crew room talk and let the board of inquiry do its job.



Once a brat.......always a brat - Trenchard's Finest!

HallamPilot
4th Dec 2007, 07:12
I can only assume that you must be part of the investigating team at Marham, to class historic top latch failures as 'irrelevent'.

The top latch still locates in a window, so there is still a chance of failure.

In my humble opinion.

And many of the Armourers here at Lossie.

The point I WAS trying to make is that there may be many other circumstances that led to this tragic event OTHER than the guys who fitted the seat.:ugh:

Once A Brat
4th Dec 2007, 07:40
HallamPilot,

I wholeheartedly applaude your sentiments and totally agree with them ........ there are many other failure modes other than human error.

No offence was meant and none taken I hope, I certainly didn't want to 'humble' your opinion. I just felt that by referring to historic top latch failures that you were fuelling speculation that the top latch, or window, is the only cause and there is enough conjecture on this subject out there without adding to it because the 'instant experts' will then take it as gospel. Historic events are exactly that, history; all plumbers know the seriousness of a (in)correct top latch assembly. And no, I am not part of the team at Marham (thankfully) but have been involved on the edge of the investigation.


Lets remember about the possible legal ramifications for the seat team and/or MOD not forgetting that one poor soul has lost his life, RIP Mike.


Once a brat.......always a brat - Trenchard's Finest!

PPRuNe Pop
4th Dec 2007, 07:50
I really do think that this thread has run its course. Speculation never achieves anything in the long run.

We will all know the reason in due course.

PPP