Police MD 902 Crash at Hannover Airport

[skadi]

Today a MD 902, operated by the Police of Lower Saxony, Germany crashed at their homebase on the airport of Hannover after declaring emergency. ( possible loss of T/R-control ) The helicopter flipped over while attempting to land, all three on board escaped with minor injuries.

skadi

[Phil77]

Looks like it was different one
I read they operate 3 MD902s (now 2 :uhoh:) and two SA365s

http://www.nonstopnews.de/thumb.php?id=140567&hash=86a6f21de98bd6834b7c813a1cc45daa
http://www.nonstopnews.de/thumb.php?id=140563&hash=df9fbaf18ba235c04bbff6a1ce680a3b
http://www.nonstopnews.de/thumb.php?id=140564&hash=ba1478741a348ccd6383af0c5f043d40
Pics from http://www.nonstopnews.de/index.php?page=meldung&newsnr=6069 (http://www.nonstopnews.de/index.php?page=meldung&newsnr=6069)

[skadi]

Is this the same machine?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=189 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3527345&postcount=189)


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=191 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3528740&postcount=191)


That MD 902 is from the Police in Stuttgart/ Baden-Würtenberg ( Southern Germany ), that one which crashed today was from the Police of Lower Saxony in Hannover in the northern Part of Germany.

skadi

[Bravo73]

Sorry if that added to the confusion then. :O I'll delete my original post.

[Flying Bull]

Hi skadi,

with the video in mind the thought isn't that far fetched.

Due to the rumors network they had control difficulties in flight, did some approaches to evaluate and then made the final approach.
A/C drifted of the runway and turned over after touching the gras.
Seems like everything was done according to the book - but the luck was only sufficent for the occupants (only scratches, bruises and shock), not für the MD...

Greetings Flying Bull

[cptjim]

I'm glad everyone made it out ok. This is the second 902 to go down in 2 weeks! http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298613

[Coconutty]

From the pics it looks like that ship has had the tail boom extension mod.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[turboshaft]

Coconutty -- Interesting. A couple of months back an MD rep told me that the whole fleet had already been modded. Is this not the case?

[Helipoc]

All MD902s flying in Germany (about 10) got the thruster extension installed, including the one of the Police of Lower Saxony (D-HPNB) which crashed on 14/11/2007.


regards,
Jan

[Coconutty]

Turboshaft -

Don't know - If that's what the Rep said then that might be right.

Mine was just an observation from the pic's posted, after reading the first comment of ( possible loss of T/R-control )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Lokon]

Any truth in the rumour that the uk police users have started a knee jerk reaction, units to fly into Staverton for checks?

on what and why.

Nothing on the MD site to instigate a check.

[PANews]

For what it is worth the literal translations of the German media texts talked of loss of tail rotor control and the 902 returning to Hanover shortly after take-off and then coming to grief in undertaking a run on landing. [Torque] toppled them during the 'skid landing'.

Always a difficult area using literal translations so I guess we will have to await further reports either way.

[anonythemouse]

LOKON, why would you call it a knee jerk reaction? Something has happened and, with a max of only just over 1 1/2 hours flying time to get to Staverton, all of the units and their personnel can have their minds put at rest. At the very least I would call it a duty of care and, from a flight safety point of view, a very good move. A lot of manufacturers and their agents may have taken time, considered the markets reaction to a recall and decided to wait. If the recall has been made by either PAs or MD then I for one think that they ought to be commended!

[Phil77]

Beeing german I might can shed some light on the afore mentioned translations...
Following the usual practice everywhere in the world also the german media tried to put the maneuver in "simple" but technically wrong terms, using car-driving terminology and broad assumptions like:

- "the pilot had to maintain a speed of at least 90 knots (!), otherwise the helicopter would have skidded uncontrollably" :eek:
Holy sh** THATs fast! Having never flown one, what's the maximum touchdown speed for the MD902?

- apparently he aborted two attempts and touched down on the third only to veer off the runway a 100 yards later.

Another newspaper interviewed a police helicopter pilot; the gentleman was quoted that "it seemed he had trouble with the anti torque system" - nothing more specific. It was not mentioned if the guy flies for that same unit.

A shame, the aircraft was worth 7 million euros (€1 = ~ $1.40+) and (quote) "nobody insures police equipment... no cars or helicopters" :uhoh:

I tried to find anything on the BFU (the german NTSB) and found nothing... their latest bulletin is from august 2007 :ugh:

Phil

[Lokon]

ANON it might only be 1 1/2 hours, but it looks from here that the tail is wagging the dog!

[Sulley]

90 kts isn't the run on speed

[Flaxton Flyer]

Phil77 -

If you have jammed right pedal or total loss of thruster control you make a high speed approach and bleed the speed off with a cyclic flare. As the aircraft starts to sink, you level the nose and make your running landing. "All" you have to do then is co-ordinate the raising of the collective (to cushion the landing) with the nose pointing along the runway direction whilst simultaneously rolling off two (very stiff) throttles.

It is not an emergency requiring an immediate landing, so the smart thing to do is have a few practise runs before you commit to landing, which probably explains the two "aborted" attempts.

However, the only other loss of NOTAR control I can recall was in Japan, and I believe they crashed too. So maybe it's an easier procedure to write than to actually perform "live"

[skadi]

FF wrote:

However, the only other loss of NOTAR control I can recall was in Japan, and I believe they crashed too


A couple of weeks ago, a MD 900/902 in Austria also suffered possible loss NOTAR control and crashed.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298613 .

Rumours are, that a link to the thruster control has broken....?

Anything to do with the tailboom extension???

skadi

[anonythemouse]

LOKON, does it matter much which end of the dog is in charge of the wagging? What has effectively happened is that, in a very short space of time the UK Police/HEMS fleet will have been checked and, as far as I know, they've all had a clean bill of health so far.

[Flaxton Flyer]

skadi - I should have said the only other confirmed loss of NOTAR control. It was quite a few years ago, so obviously not thruster extension related that time. Not heard anything definite about the other recent accident yet.

[PANews]

Flaxton

To that Japanese incident you quote you can add at least one in the USA as 'confirmed' by the authorities ...

According to the US NTSB the 16 October 2003 loss of MD 900, registration: N179PA was 'the pilot's in-flight loss of control due to the fatigue fracture and separation of the force limiting control rod (an integral part of the anti-torque system), which resulted in the helicopter's uncommanded yaw/spin and subsequent collision with terrain.' I am not sure whether that is the same rod as the recent Austrian 'allegation'

High run-on speeds are not that unusual. The 1984 accident to Bell 222 G-METB at Hatfield was as a result of t/r failure and that required a fast run on [wheels not skids] that was finally to end up with the machjine on its side as balance was lost. I have the report here somewhere .... but I recall the approach speed was significantls over 90kts.... 120kts was mentioned...

[Lokon]

Anon, point taken, but what do you inspect if you don`t know the cause?

Is this just a check to satisfy the police user group.

[anonythemouse]

LOKON, I believe that either a cause or indication has been found and being acted upon.

[Phil77]

Flaxton

I should have made clear that I did not question the goarounds and I'm perfectly aware that the helicopter will not have an instantaneous combustion ;) in midair just because the anti torque system (however that might look like) failed - or at least isn't working properly anymore.
I heard of guys (or girls) who attempted up to 10 run-on landings before making it successfully - why not if you have enough fuel?!

Like sulley said, 90 kts was most definately not the run-on speed - I used the ":eek:" to indicate that I think a reporter heard a number and thought he could educate the general public how dangerous the maneuver was - and that only becomes clear if you read between the lines. :yuk:

...I recall that Nick said on this forum that the notar has 3 times the parts of a conventional T/R system... its nice to remove the tailrotor strike problem (among other advantages), but you still have multiple single point of failures!

Phil

[Flaxton Flyer]

PANews

I think it was as a result of that incident that a mod was introduced to attach a couple of retaining lanyards to the rod to stop this happening again. It was in the form of an SB with the lanyards being inspected on the Daily "A" check.

It may be that the Austrian machine had a similar problem but I think we would probably have known by now if that was the case.


Phil - wasn't meaning to comment on your interpretation of the report, just a general comment of the ins-and-outs of handling a NOTAR failure. No offence intended!:)

[tbc]

Would any of our European colleagues like to pass on any more details about this accident?

If not publicly then by p.m. as I am very interested in what the failure was and what the crew did to try and resolve it.

[Lokon]

I see MD have now issued SB106 to be complied within 10 flight hours. perhaps this means a busy weekend for PAS etc.
Anonymouse it might have been a wasted 1 1/2 hours flying after all.....let the dog wag the tail in future.

[tecpilot]

According to the german accident investigation board the police helicopter crashed after a mechanical failure of the NOTAR control. The air outled blocked in a very "unfavorable" angle and prevented a safe running landing. Crew and maintenance have done everything correct.

Under suspicion and not secured by the accident board is now the lengthened tail boom assuming a higher stress factor with this extension could be the failure reason.

Liability for MD in this case is not out of question according to news reports.

The accident board do not exclude a link to the austrian accident 14 days before, also a secured NOTAR control failure.

[Max_Chat]

Having no experience on the 902, I was wondering if there is a Double EOL option? If so when would that be used and how stable in yaw would the aircraft be?

[mfriskel]

Max,
NOTAR operation in autorotation is similar to tail rotor or fenstron operation- all are driven by a drive from the main rotor via a gearbox.
Mark

[mfriskel]

Tecpilot,
Can you expand on "very unfavorable angle"? It sounds like you mean open to the right, but do they know how much right, and what kind of maneuvering was being done when it became fixed to the right?
Mark

[tecpilot]

"Very unfavorable angle" is the term used official by the accident board. The file is not closed and still under investigations. It´s a federal a/c, no insurance cover, several millions € damage. The accident board will give limited infos until they have found a solution with MD i believe.

Interesting to see they have got suddenly a new helicopter within that very short time from the US. It´s the fastest replace i have ever seen on a public operator.

[skadi]

The first official report about this accident was released some days ago:

http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_009/nn_41542/DE/Publikationen/Bulletins/2007/Bulletin2007-11,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf/Bulletin2007-11.pdf

Page 17-19, including some pics from the relevant broken parts.

skadi

[anonythemouse]

Any idea how to get an English version of this report. I used to live in Germany many years ago but my German was limited to ordering beer and food!

[skadi]

These first reports ( bulletins ) are only available in german, only the final investigation reports are publisehed in german and english.

skadi

[K48]

I cant read the German either but does that look like a control rod failed under torsion?... is that part of the new thrust mod mentioned above.... did it shear before or after crash is the question....?
Could it be that one broken fixing = 7 million Euros? Plus the previous 902 with the mod......? ouch:{

[skadi]

According to the report, the link between the control cable and the push-pull-tube ( red circle in the pic of another MD ) broke obviously before the accident, resulting in loss of anti-torque-control below 80 kts. The push-pull-tube was replaced with the tail-extension.

skadi

[Paradism]

I don't think there is any "obvious" about it. Only forensic tests will determine what caused the break. The break could be the result of:

Heavy control input to attempt to free a possible restriction, or

catastrophic failure during the crash itself, or

fatigue due to unknown stresses.


There may be other possibilities but until the result of investigation is published, we will not know what is the cause of the break or of the crash itself. IMHO of course.

[Eagle402]

Mouse,

Find the German original, highlight same, cut and paste into Google language tools and use the 'translate' section, selecting German to English of course!

Please bear in mind that it is a very literal translation.

Eagle

[PANews]

On 21 July 2008 Calstar the EMS operator reported that Explorer N902CS suffered an emergency landing after the pilot reported lost of tail authority whilst landing at their base in Salinas, California. No injuries were reported.

The pilot executed a 'hovering autorotation' resulting in damage to the skid crosstubes.

The loss of anti-torque control was caused by the failure of the thruster cone control rod. CALSTAR have grounded their fleet pending an inspection of the control rods.

[quichemech]

Still keen to get the boot in on the 902 then PA News:hmm:

Oh, sorry you're just passing on information.

Glad no one was hurt and the aircraft not badly damaged.

[407TX]

Any news on the 902 incident in France this past weekend?:confused:

[skadi]

What happened in France??

skadi

[407TX]

The VSCS actuator rod broke last weekend in France and Calstar, the same part, the same day??????????????:eek::confused::ooh::sad:

[airborne_artist]

BBC South Today (local TV news, based Southampton) reporting that some/all MD902 are grounded pending checks, following an incident at Denham yesterday. This affects a number of police and HEMS operators in the South of England, they report.

BBC NEWS | England | Safety scare grounds helicopters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7553922.stm)

[Zasgar]

Here the story from the BBC: BBC NEWS | England | Safety scare grounds helicopters (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7553922.stm)

[902Jon]

The 33 year old pilot held a valid commercial pilot licence CPL(H) according to the regulations of JAR FCL, 2 issued first on 09 November 2006, with the type rating as pilot in command on MD900/902, valid until 06 November 2008....//.... His overall flight experience as pilot was 298 hours, of these 165 hours on the accident type. In the last 90 days he had flown 26 hours.

So a brand new CPL(H) is given a single pilot Police position for his first job!
Did his (lack) experience have anything to do with the amount of damage done to the aircraft during the emergency landing? Compared to the London HEMS incident at Denham where no damage at all was done in a similar situation (with 2 very experienced ATPL(H) IR pilots)?

I am aware that where the NOTAR control rods fail has a huge bearing on the nature of the emergency but......

[tbc]

I think that Lady Luck played a big part in these two incidents.

That and a set of emergency drills that leaves a lot to be desired.:ugh:

[quichemech]

Aren't their pilots coppers who have been trained up? That would explain the hours.

[Capt.Gonzo]

Yes,

In Germany you have to be Police Officer to get into the Cockpit of an Police Helicopter.

I think the pilot got the MD 902 Type Rating direct after he completed his CPL H.

[902Jon]

Wouldn't it be better to recruit an experienced pilot and then get him trained to a basic Police officer? I believe this is what is done in Australia to get around this requirement. Surely a valuable asset like the helicopter should have well qualified & experienced crew? A 902 is not a small toy for policemen to play with. It is an expensive platform for expensive police equipment and should be treated accordingly. How does the aircraft get insured with low time crews? Or is it underwritten by the Police authority?

[GoodGrief]

No insurance. Taxpayers money...:ugh:

[Flying Bull]

Hi, don´t try to blame the pilot. He did a great job dealing with an emergency, which wasn´t in the emergency checklist before this accident. There was a little lack of luck - that the chopper reached soft gras on the runwayshoulder - but all got out. Remember a landing from which you can walk away, is a good landing... a landing, after which you can still use the chopper - is a very good landing Greetings Flying Bull

[2896]

The poor 902 is having a bad time at the moment considering the recent incident.