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Warmtoast
13th Nov 2007, 22:37
Doing some research in "The Times" Digital Archive I came across this entry from a report about the September 1953 Battle of Britain displays.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BOBFataitiesSept1953.jpg

To have two Meteors disintergrate on the same day whilst being displayed at two seperate shows seems by today's standards to be appalling.

Does anyone know the circumstances / reasons?

John Farley
13th Nov 2007, 22:55
seems by today's standards to be appalling

Correct. Standards change. Such things in those days were not appalling but just what happened in aviation.

Archimedes
13th Nov 2007, 23:44
Bob Cossey's history of 74 Sqn suggests that all Meteors were temporarily grounded as a result (Cossey doesn't refer to the second accident), and some skin wrinkling was detected, although there was no evidence that this had been a cause of the crash of Fg Off Ward. The grounding would seem to have been lifted very quickly.

As John Farley says, the standards were different then - Ward was the third casualty suffered by 74 Sqn in 3 months, and it would appear that while everyone was saddened by the loss of their comrades, the fatalities did nothing to impinge upon the effectiveness of the squadron, since it was accepted that this sort of thing just happened.

henry crun
14th Nov 2007, 00:32
I watched the one at Coningsby, I was just about to get into my aircraft when it happened.

I never read the BOI report but IIRC the aircraft suffered a double mainplane failure, possibly as a result of previous overstressing.

thawes: There is a thread about Meteor accidents that might still be in the archives.

1953 was a bad year, 486 aircraft lost with 334 fatalities; so those two you mention would not have provoked any particular comment.

BEagle
14th Nov 2007, 04:48
More than a million people visited 70 RAF airfields....

Are there even 7 nowadays?

eagle 86
14th Nov 2007, 05:46
Oh for the days when flying was dangerous and sex was safe!!
GAGS
E86

Kitbag
14th Nov 2007, 07:29
And the Biggin Hill event was attended by 4 times as many people than are in the RAF now

Fareastdriver
14th Nov 2007, 08:31
Way back in 1950-53 my father was a flying instructor at an FTS at Heany, in the then Rhodesia. They used Tiger Moths, later Chipmunks and Harvards. They had cases of students being chopped because they refused to go on to advanced jet training, such was the Meteor’s (Meatbox) reputation. Later on in life I read an article in the Flying Training Command Flight Safety magazine, so it must be true, about somebody who arrived for his advanced flying course, possibly Driffield.

He warned in to the students mess and was allocated a room. Apart from the Effects Officer’s sealing wax on the door jamb, not unusual in those days, he was amazed to find the room was immaculate. It was redecorated and had brand new furniture, new washbasin, the lot.
After unpacking he took a stroll around the mess to suss out his new surroundings. When he got abeam his room he was horrified to see a frontal view of a Meteor in new brickwork. The room’s previous occupant had attempted a single engined overshoot below his personal critical speed.
In those days asymmetric flying was taught with one engine shut down so you had no chance if you fouled it up.

At Oakers in 1961 they still had a Meteor flight for those too leggy to eject from a Vampire. The instructors, wizened and haggard blokes in their early thirties, took me up for a couple of rides. If you are in the front pull yourself down under the wing, in the back, flop onto it. They also explained the theory of the Meteor ‘phantom dive’ that used to kill quite a lot of people. Ruddy noisy inside a T7. Loads of canopy noise but compared to the Vampire you could hardly hear the engines.

K.Whyjelly
14th Nov 2007, 20:18
He warned in to the students mess and was allocated a room. Apart from the Effects Officer’s sealing wax on the door jamb, not unusual in those days, he was amazed to find the room was immaculate. It was redecorated and had brand new furniture, new washbasin, the lot.
After unpacking he took a stroll around the mess to suss out his new surroundings. When he got abeam his room he was horrified to see a frontal view of a Meteor in new brickwork. The room’s previous occupant had attempted a single engined overshoot below his personal critical speed.
In those days asymmetric flying was taught with one engine shut down so you had no chance if you fouled it up.



Pretty sure this happened at Middleton St George (now Durham Tees Valley.....Teesside as was) in the '50's. Meteor went into the west wing of the mess killing the pilot. His 'ghost' used to be a point of discussion with new Doris' on the way to MME to nightstop at the George hotel (as the Officers Mess became) in the vain hope of getting a scarified young girl to seek protection in the strong manly arms of the hunky flightcrew!!!;)

Jetex Jim
14th Nov 2007, 21:36
Interesting look back at the 'good old days'.

My dad was a national service aircraft electrician. He'd was a qualified sparks before he was called up. He and some of his mates had to supply their own tools because the RAF didn't.

He also has a few tales about fatal accidents involving ground crew because of poor safety practices with armed ejector seats.

Vox Populi
14th Nov 2007, 22:41
1953 was a bad year, 486 aircraft lost with 334 fatalities; so those two you mention would not have provoked any particular comment.

Sorry, are these figures for the RAF in the UK?

If so I am truly shocked.

henry crun
15th Nov 2007, 00:18
They are the RAF losses, UK and overseas.

The PM
15th Nov 2007, 04:03
Nothing to do with prangs, but some may find this pic of interest:

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u303/JohnThePM/2007_0915temora15sept070066_cr.jpg

I took it at The Temora Aviation Museum Flying Weekend in September.Shortly after this, my camera packed it in, and missed out on pictures of their Canberra and the RAAF F/A-18.

They are displaying again this weekend, sadly I can't go, as they have on the card their 2 Spitfires, 2 visiting Kittyhawks , a visiting Mustang as well as their Vampire,Meteor,Canberra, Hudson etc etc etc

http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/

Wiley
15th Nov 2007, 04:37
Great pic. I'm assuming 'Poodles' Wood in the Vamp. Who flys the Meatbox for them?

The PM
15th Nov 2007, 05:03
Sorry Wiley, not 100% sure but I do seem to recall that as the Meteor and Hornet were joining up, the commentator made mention that the guy flying the Meteor was an ex Canadian Hornet driver, possibly Darren Crabb?
As I say, I stand to be corrected though.

http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/THFC/

Fareastdriver
15th Nov 2007, 23:05
Thanks, K Whyjellly. Yoy have now explained why, when I was operating out of Teeside in the 70s and staying in the George Hotel, every time I turned back to my pint it was empty.

John Blakeley
16th Nov 2007, 06:37
Although there will always be some discrepancies in the figures (re-caregorisation etc) according to records I have seen the RAF's overall figures are something like this (I believe excluding combat losses):

Year
Cat 3 + Fatalities

1945 592 638
1946 1014 677
1947 420 176
1948 424 205
1949 438 224
1950 380 238
1951 490 280
1952 507 318
1953 483 333
1954 452 283
1955 305 182
1956 270 150
1957 233 139
1958 128 87
1959 102 59
1960 80 46
1961 74 55
1962 68 50
1963 60 41
1964 62 33
1965 46 71
1966 62 33
1967 60 60
1968 51 43
1969 31 22
1970 36 25
1971 40 72
1972 28 22
1973 30 21
1974 16 5
1975 21 17
1976 33 20
1977 14 7
1978 25 27
1979 27 13
1980 24 13
1981 26 7
1982 35 10
1983 26 19
1984 23 4
1985 19 9
1986 19 10
1987 20 17
1988 19 18
1989 17 9
1990* 29 19
1991* 27 15
1992* 17 8
1993* 17 13
1994* 17 34
1995* 13 9
1996* 21 2
1997* 12 3
1998* 11 3
1999* 18 6
2000* 9
2001* 12
2002* 9
2003* 6
2004* 6


Total: 7554 4970

Vox Populi
16th Nov 2007, 22:44
Jesus wept.

I knew the good old days were bad but those stats are horrendous.

I feel lucky to be alive as Dad was flying Meteors in 1953...mind you I remember him telling me they lost three pilots on his ETPS course including the CFI and two more just afterwards (and both the American pilots went on to die in Vietnam).

In today's culture it's difficult to comprehend.

Chugalug2
17th Nov 2007, 10:10
A sobering table JB. I recall an FSO course in 1969 (approx) where we were told that Flight Safety related losses in WW2 far outnumbered those due to operations. The massive post WW2 loss rate, in particular on the Meteors, led directly to the founding of what became the complete RAF Flight Safety system, from incident to STI, on which we were being instructed. I see that your table stops at 2004, and many of the accidents and deaths with which this forum is sadly so familiar with excluded. I fear that a hard won lesson is having to be learned afresh.

Sven Sixtoo
17th Nov 2007, 10:35
I joined the RAF in 1977. At the time (being a sad and introverted sort of character) I worked out that based on the historic loss rate, my chances of living through 16 years as a fast jet pilot were about 4 in 5. I did the sum again at the end of the first 16 years and the answer was about 99 in 100. Now I'm too old to bother doing sums.

Sven

John Blakeley
17th Nov 2007, 12:09
Chugalug 2

The web site:

http://www.dasa.mod.uk/natstats/accidents/accdeaths/annual/acctab1.html

gives the figures up to 2006.

You can also look at individual accident summaries back to the 1970s if you go to:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/ShortListPage.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7B0072E532-5D75-4C86-9E3D-811BAB3BB389%7D&NRORIGINALURL=%2FDefenceInternet%2FAboutDefence%2FCorporateP ublications%2FAirSafetyandAviationPublications%2FMAAS%2F&NRCACHEHINT=Guest

JB

BEagle
17th Nov 2007, 12:24
Many of those I've checked on the 'accident summary' website are the 'whitewash summary' and totally fail to provide the full details......

Typical:mad:

Chugalug2
17th Nov 2007, 12:41
But even the whitewash is sobering, Beags. As you say the summaries say little, but the stats tell their own story. The spike in the number of deaths resulting form the Chinook crash at Mull in 1994, more than doubling the 1993 deaths. Of course the drastic cuts in the military aviation fleet over the years has to be borne in mind when one sees the graphs dipping ever further to the right hand corner.

Lyneham Lad
17th Nov 2007, 14:51
Well, I cannot compete with the earlier colour picture, but I do have a rather scrappy shot of the Old Pair at a Valley Open Day in the mid-70's:-

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f84/Lyneham_Lad/Aircraft/Old_Pair001_crop.jpg

Chugalug2
17th Nov 2007, 15:57
The Vampire (as you've posted a picture LL) wasn't without its idiosyncrasies I believe. I never flew it myself, our course was the first to train on JPs, but Vampires and Meteors (for those too lanky for the MB seats in the Vamp) were used by the entries senior to us at Sleaford Tech. No doubt someone of their vintage will correct me, but AFAIK there was a band of Eng RPM that was verboten on the approach (to avoid surges?) not the cleverest limitation for a training aircraft. The effect of this was that the MO kept his window open, even in the depths of winter, with his mini parked outside. Thus one could be only half way through one's heart wrenching list of ailments and symptoms hoping for a sickie, when at the first peep of the station crash alarm you were addressing an empty chair!
The other endearing feature of the Vamp was that the U/C and flap selectors could and sometimes were confused. Thus the after landing tidy up could be anything but as with a graunch she settled onto her belly!

Hummingfrog
17th Nov 2007, 16:10
Accident rates are an emotive topic and it is hard to believe the numbers who lost their lives in the immediate post war period. Even in my time my course (19GE 1974/75) lost 25% of those who made it to squadrons in flying accidents. I almost added to that while CAT 5ing a Bulldog:eek:

RIP RR and NS:(

HF

Fareastdriver
17th Nov 2007, 22:38
The Vampire's U/C and flap levers were down the bottom of the throttle pedestal, virtually out of sight. The U/C knob was wheel-shaped and the other was squarish. When the port oleo was compressed a microswitch would put and interferance bar above the U/C lever therefore preventing it from being pulled up. It worked for me several times.
If you got a load of flak thrown up at you from the runway caravan it meant that your U/C was not down and locked or the bulb in the nose light that told him so was blown.

5500rpm, or was it 7500 rpm was the minimum on finals as the engine would take so long to accelerate without rumbling like a dinosaurs belly after a bathful of Vindaloo.

Refering to the post below I think this was an RAF FTC mod.

Samuel
17th Nov 2007, 22:57
I know of at least one instance of an RNZAF T11 which raised its undercarriage while taxying. The QFI later became an Air Commodore!

Warmtoast
19th Nov 2007, 09:34
From my album

Meteor F8 - 41 Sqn Biggin Hill 1954/1955. 41 converted to Hunter F5's in August 1955.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/41SqnMeteor8-2.jpg


41 Sqn's Vampire T.11 taken at about the same time

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/DiaTest6.jpg

Vox Populi
19th Nov 2007, 11:48
Thanks for posting the pictures, you don't see so many colour snaps from that era.

You could perhaps spare the Vampire pilot's blushes by photoshopping another a/c next to him...

Mike Read
19th Nov 2007, 14:10
VP

It looks to me as if the T11 is on a taxiway. Not much room for formation.

Fareastdriver
19th Nov 2007, 15:39
Judging bythe dust coming from his port mainwheel, he is OFF the taxiway.

Flatus Veteranus
19th Nov 2007, 18:13
I flew in the Middleton-st-George aerobatic team (the "Falcons") at Pershore's B o B Day display on 19 Sep 53. After flying back to Middleton on
21 Sep, I did not fly again until 28 Dec. I do not think the reason for the "gap" was a grounding; I believe I did the OATS course around then, whatever that was - anyway I did not get my oats! Any way, I flew a T7 on 28 Dec "418" with a Flt Lt Farley in the back seat on an air test. Any takers on which Farley?

I spent the evening of 27 Oct in London at 208's 91st reunion dinner, where I was guest speaker. I devoted some of my speech defending the reputation of the Meatbox against some of the malignant and somewhat hysterical abuse that it has attracted recently. Some significant facts are:-

About 3,500 Meatboxes were built and, according to Nick Carter's book, "only" about 25% of them were writen off in accidents.

Ejection seats were introduced with the Mk 8 and later Marks. At Driffield, where I did my conversion, and at Middleton where I was a "creamie" we used F4s for solo work and T7s for instruction. In the former, due to the high tail, bailing out was scarcely an option. In the latter it was an act of desperation because the canopy sometimes did not release cleanly, swivelled on its centre strut and decapitated both pilots. (Or so we were warned).

All Meatboxes had the old economiser oxygen system. The T7 was unpressurised and the F4s' pressurisation was not often serviceable. I am sure many pilots went partially anoxic.

The F4s and the earlier T7s had vacuum-driven instruments with pitifully low gimbal limits and long re-erection times, and these in short-endurance aircraft which had to operate at high altitudes. I am sure many blokes "lost it" carrying out of necessity a "limited panel" QGH/GCA. The Meatbox's descent angle with airbrakes out was steep.

The performance jump from the Harvard to the Meatbox was great.

There was an urgent build-up of the front line due to the Korean war. I believe students were being pushed off solo at the AFSs in conditions which were not acceptable on Flight Safety grounds. But Flight Safety was not the ultimate consideration at that time.

The idiot who tried to do a touch-and-go on one and went through the officers mess was at Middleton - in late 51 I think.

The attitude of the public in those days was "Dogs bark, ducks quack, jets crash". I don't believe there was any mutiny at the FTSs. Everyone wanted to fly the Meatbox because it was still King of the Sky

goudie
19th Nov 2007, 19:40
'Judging by the dust coming from his port mainwheel, he is OFF the taxiway.'

or it could be jet efflux!

pontifex
19th Nov 2007, 20:17
I think many of the Meteor fatalities were due to, firstly practicing asymmetric with one flamed out, no FADEC or any accel device save the left hand and a general lack of knowledge of gas turbine handling. Secondly, the phantom dive which occurred when any flap was lowered with the airbrakes (wing mounted) out. According to my log book, the last time this happened was on Aug 6 1988 at Coventry when a CFS vintage Meteor did a display and left his brakes out for most of it. I was scrambling into my Harvard to try and get the radio working when he turned downwind to land. The dive, when it occurred was sudden and mind numbingly dramatic. Thank God he missed the housing estate. This is probably the history behind the first item on the pre-landing check of all the fast jets I ever flew "airbrakes in".

Art Field
19th Nov 2007, 20:28
I am willing to stand corrected but was it not the lowering of the undercarriage (where one wheel came down before the other and created yaw) with airbrakes out that caused the phantom dive.

BEagle
19th Nov 2007, 20:37
That's what the ex-Meatbox hands told me, Arters.

See http://www.caa.govt.nz/Publications/Vector/Vector_1998_Issue-1_Feb.pdf

CharlieJuliet
19th Nov 2007, 21:04
AFAIK I completed a circuits sortie in a T7, and on taxying in found the airbrake out. In the later days of the Meteor (I flew at RAFCAW in 65) the airbrakes were limited, and only came out to about 45 deg. Is this why I did not experience the 'phanton dive'? Any comment? From memory the aircraft felt a bit odd but did nothing untoward.

Fareastdriver
20th Nov 2007, 00:19
IIRC the Dewent had only one accessory drive so the generator was on the starboad and the hyraulic pump on the port engine. When you lowered the U/C the hyraulics took the line of least resistance and lowered the port wheel first.
With the early oval fin the airbrakes, fully extended, would blank off the fin and tailplane therefore not dampening the inevitable yaw and the nose would drop. The later, Mk 8 and similar, with a different fin didn't suffer so much.

BEagle
20th Nov 2007, 06:30
Fareastdriver, I managed to scrounge 3 trips in the back of 'Clementine', the Brawdy target-towing Meteor T7, whilst at TWU. Apart from watching my colleagues shooting at our flag, my overriding memory was of the odd light sequence during landing gear extension (preceded by a positive check of "Airbrakes IN") - and the nimble footwork of the chap in the front ensuring that the ball stayed in the middle!

Presumably the height loss involved in the 'phantom dive' needed to retract the airbrakes and recover to level flight was frequently greater than the height available? Particularly if both engines were at idle during the run in and break.

In the Hunter, selecting airbrake in and gear down at the same time with the idle thrust would put such a demand on the feeble hydraulics that the controls would revert to manual - which certainly got one's attention during a VRIAB!

At least in the Gnat it was physically impossible to select airbrake in and gear down together - it was the same system. 'Airbrake' was actually 50%-ish gear extension - a clever idea!

henry crun
20th Nov 2007, 07:32
Beagle: You are right about the height loss.

One chap on my course at Weston Zoyland went in off the downwind leg, it all happened so quickly there did not seem to be time to effect any sort of recovery action.

Warmtoast
20th Nov 2007, 09:00
Thanks for posting the pictures, you don't see so many colour snaps from that era.


Colour negative film and resultant colour prints were prohibitively expensive in those days and these two photos were among a collection I took whilst dabbling with colour positive (transparency) film.

BEagle
20th Nov 2007, 10:18
henry - as a very small lad I often went with my father on business to Weston Zoyland (the firm was based at Merryfield) as well as Dunkeswell and Lulsgate.

One of my earliest memories was a compound stacked high with battered silver (and yellow band) painted aircraft parts. I wonder whether your colleague's Meatbox was amongst them?

Fortunately the T7s still flying from Chalgrove are actually 'Mark 7-and-a-half' models with the later F8-style fin and rudder. And they really look very smart in gloss black!

thawes - thanks very much for those photos. They are from an era when we still had a proper air force!

Flatus Veteranus
20th Nov 2007, 13:28
It was the yaw induced by lowering the gear in combination with extended airbrakes that caused the breakdown in air flow over the tail. We used to demonstrate this at a safe height at the AFSs. The syllabus summary still pasted into my logbook says: " Ex 3. Asymmetric flying critical speeds, relighting procedure and emergencies. Effect of airbrakes with asymmetric power. Simulated asymmetric overshoots, min height 5,000ft (2 sorties,1hr 20 mins dual)". The demo of unbalanced asymmetric thrust with airbrakes OUT could be quite spectacular and showed that you had no chance of correcting the situation from circuit height. Most students were taught instinctively to thump the airbrake lever forwards (IN) with their palm before going for the undercarriage handle.

(Added) I believe that mishandling of asymmetric thrust was a relatively minor cause of Meatbox accidents. Getting lost and running out of fuel was a more frequent cause. The F4s and T7s carried about 95 gals less than the F8s and FR9s. There was no navaid other than the fixes or bearings you could get on VHF. This might have been acceptable in UK where there was a highly organised fighter control organisation on the ground. But in the Middle East they really ought to have given us a radio compass, as I believe they did the RAAF aircraft. I know that 208 lost six aircraft 1954-57 due to failure of ground VHF/DF stations to respond. All forced-landed rather than ejected in Kamseen conditions. Luckily no one got hurt.

shack
20th Nov 2007, 14:18
I was a QFI at Merryfield in 1953 till it closed, Flatus logbook in 100% correct in that it was a gear/airbrake problem.

I always used to wonder who was the snotty nosed kid who was always peering through the fence, now at long last I know it was BEagle.

Mike Read
20th Nov 2007, 16:00
Shack

I was a QFI at Tarrant Rushton until it closed in 1954. Remember our Vampire formation aeros display for you on 01/01/54 ? I believe the "phantom dive" problem could be exacerbated if a/c had no ventral tank. It could easily happen with a/b "in" at lowish speeds if the a/c yawed. "Always keep the ball in the middle, Bloggs".

BEagle
20th Nov 2007, 16:12
shack - guilty as charged! But I wasn't old enough to be out on my own in those days. So the dashing young pilot leering at my (ex-WAAF) mum from his jet must have been you!

I was hoping to go back and take a nostalgic look at the place during the Summer - but we never got one and I didn't get any spare time!

Depressing reading all the "I was a QFI at XXXXX until it closed" notes - the stories are good but the number of aerodromes we had then makes me very annoyed at the pathetic state things are in these days.

"I was a QFI at Abingdon until it closed!"..;)

norilsk
20th Nov 2007, 19:53
Those were the days when the Staff College was at Andover

shack
21st Nov 2007, 10:18
BEagle apologise to your Mum from me please.

BEagle
21st Nov 2007, 15:51
I'll need a shovel......

Were you one of the guys who used to enjoy themselves at the Shrubbery Hotel in Ilminster, or 'The Volunteer' at Seavington St Michael?

There was a dent in 'The Volunteers'' saloon bar ceiling caused by the late John Steele's bald pate - and it was still there in 1970!

shack
22nd Nov 2007, 09:09
The Volunteer yes but the Shrubbery Hotel in Ilminster brings sad memories. I don't know if it still exists or is needed but back in the early 50s the S.O.P was that if one of your students went in you as his QFI had to meet and look after the family when they came for the funeral and burial. The hotel used for their accommodation was normally the Shrubbery in Ilminster hence the memories. One of mine, not doing as he was told, made a hole near Watchett, and looking after the family and being careful in what one said to them following the inevitable question "What happened" was hard.
Until we got our Vampire 9s the attrition rate with the old 1s and 3s was bad although not as bad as with the Meatbox.

Cannot really say happy days but in lots of ways they were.

airborne_artist
22nd Nov 2007, 09:25
Shack - the Shrubbery still exists - it's a Best Western hotel, on the main drag. My dear old mum lives in Ilminster. The Volunteer is also still serving http://www.thevolly.co.uk/

olddog
22nd Nov 2007, 09:37
Shack - Apologise to your mother
Beagle - I'll need a shovel
Old Dog - Wipes coffee off computer screen!!!
PS. I was a QFI at Turnhouse until it closed

shack
22nd Nov 2007, 09:42
Sorry Airborne Artist I was not querying if the Shrubbery still exists but if QFIs still have to look after families, badly written I feel.

BEagle
31st Dec 2007, 08:58
Well, I was down in Zumazett yesterday, so went to find my old 'goofing spot' from whence I used to watch the jets when we had both a real air force and, later, fleet air arm:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/goofspot.jpg

An ideal spot to watch aircraft on the approach to RW 27 - as well as those taxying out from the left of the Control Tower or, occasionally, from Westlands (just off the right of the picture - now a gyspy camp).

I couldn't believe how narrow the lanes are in that part of the world! My SLK isn't a big car, but I didn't remember the roads being so small.

More unpleasant though was the number of nanny-state speed limits now inflicted upon the fast country roads I once used in the 1970s..... It'd drive me mad if I had to live there now with the roads having been so badly ruined....:mad: Every few miles there's another 30/40/50 limit and the GPS bongs away the whole time with 'safety camera' warnings.

Good to see 'The Volunteer' had re-opened though! I didn't have time to call in, but will do so in the summer, I hope.

What does this have to do with Meatbox prangs? Well, when the Navy was there 50 years ago, a TT20 (?) came to grief about 20 feet from where the photo was taken. I distinctly remember seeing most of it stuck in the grassy overshoot of RW09 - with the nose fairing on the other side of the road!

shack
31st Dec 2007, 14:52
Thanks BEagle, nearly brought tears to my old eyes!!

corsair
1st Jan 2008, 16:16
Talk of the casualty rates reminds of a comment in Air Chief Marshal Joubert de la Ferté's biography which was written in 1952. He remarked at upset he was during his pre war RFC days, when colleagues were killed in accidents. He explained that they were a product of a gentler Victorian age and were not inured to the thought of 'sudden and unpleasant death' which was brought on by two world wars.

That was a possible explanation for the lack of concern at the casualty rate in the fifties. After all many had been through the war and were well used to the idea of sudden and unpleasant death.

The pendulum has certainly swung the other way. Gentler times!

Flatus Veteranus
1st Jan 2008, 17:11
Corsair

You speak the truth. About 450 fatals recorded in "Meteor Eject!" sounds horrific in today's Flight Safety - conscious environment. But, as a proprtion of a total Meteor build of about 3,500 airframes (of all marks) the number did not seem excessive in the immediate post-WW2 era. And of course the students were all more scared of being suspected of LMF than they were of the aircraft. I don't recall anyone being scrubbed for LMF. Winston Churchill, when he became PM again in 1951, got a bit rattled and wrote a rude note to the Air Minister. There was never any talk of grounding the fleet. and the urgency of the expansion programme during the Korean war presumably precluded any idea of withdrawing the F4s, which had no ejection seats, from service at the AFSs. I heard somewhere that the Glosters test pilots (notably "Zura") complained loudly about the T7's lack of bang-seats. Due to problems with the canopy release mechanism, a manual bale-out from the T7 was scarcely an option, and a forced landing was almost obligatory. But at night?????

Rossian
1st Jan 2008, 18:22
I remember being told by an old Meteor pilot that he regarded one of the great advances in reducing the accident rate of those times was the Clean Air Act which I think was about 1956?
Even a number of years later I remember weeks of fog in the vale of York in the winter time and looking at concentric rings of soot in the ice coating on the branches of the flowering cherry trees around the mess. Even more hairy were the occasional mornings when the Staish decided to lead the morning charge of Varsities to demonstrate..... what? As the ancient Master Pilot looked across from the left hand seat muttering "I don't remember doing this a lot in the war FFS; Hang on to your hat son"
The Ancient Mariner

sycamore
2nd Jan 2008, 22:15
The Vampire T11 in `thawes`s photo was built at Hawarden and delivered between Nov52 and 56 and may have been on 54Sqdn at the time of the photo--difficult to see any colours on the front nose-wheel door. I flew it`s `clone`, ,ex-Swiss T55 (U-1230) about 18 months ago, on a gear down ferry from B`mth,after it had been bought,and was in 54 Sqdn colours,red/white chequers on fuselage, and tail-booms.
Minimum rpm on finals -5500, until assured of landing--Pilot`s Notes

After a refurb I did the airtests for the CAA for it`s Permit- not without some drama,as on the first airtest , just after `gear-up` the `fire` warning illuminated, but the audio did not go off( Swiss a/c have an audio fire warning as well as the light-)-quick circuit,r/t to check if there`s any smoke trail,throttle back, light goes out-,
HP cock off as we cross the threshold , and coast to a halt, open canopy and survey the scene- no smoke, no fire,no smell of burning. Further
investigations revealed nothing to show any excess hot air/gas leaks,and ground running could not reproduce the fault. Same thing happened next flight.Anyway, the situation resloved itself after one of the lower compressor cans was changed and the cockpit wiring combining/junction boxes were recleaned, and all went well after that. The a/c now resides in Norway..Syc

PS-Always expect the unexpected, and dont stop a Vampire on tarmac... but that`s another story!

CANIGOU
9th Jan 2008, 09:16
Just to confirm it happened at Middleton St George, not Driffield.

RIHoward
3rd Sep 2009, 19:19
Probably caused by Fatigue failure in the tail plane, which had two spars. The whole assembly was tested for strength, but they had not accounted for a halving in the components strength when the skin would rip starting at rivet holes There's a paper in the Cranfield archive C.P No. 88 (14,192) A.R.C. Technical Report from May 1951, that details the errors the designers made when calculating the stresses on this component,

Vampiredave
3rd Sep 2009, 19:30
Flatus Veteranus: What was the Christian name of Master Pilot Morton, whom I believe flew with your Meteor team?

RIHoward
3rd Sep 2009, 19:38
The change of design strategy from Safe Life to Fail Safe is the other probable reason for the reduction in fatalities that reach a peak in '52 '53. at 330+ fatalities, which fell to 42 deaths in 1960. The Americans were the first to see the problem with Safe - Life because it could not guarantee safety in a catastrophic failure. All U.K A/c designed after '56 are 'Fail Safe' See this article from '56 which is a report about a talk given to RAeS by a chief engineer from Lockheed, he delivers a 'coup de grace' to the Safe Life strategy 1956 | 0396 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%200396.html) 1956 | 0397 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%200397.html) 1956 | 0398 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%200398.html) 1956 | 0399 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%200399.html) The Valiant was Safe Life with an airframe made from DTD683 which could and did fail catestrophically as in XD864 (http://zkt.blackfish.org.uk/XD864/index.html) and probably a few others. The Shackleton and Argosy were two others that were potentially compromised in this way, but they unlike the Valiant were redesigned and rebuilt to fail safe. I have no information about what happened to the Meteor, but it would have been designed to safe-life.

ShyTorque
3rd Sep 2009, 19:52
Flying Officer Norman, in 1951, was reported to have crashed his Meatbox, bounced off his own car and then into his own room, where he sadly met his end, following a failed single engined roller landing. He is reputed to still be occupying the old Officers' mess (now hotel) at RAF Middleton St. George. Spend the night there and he might come and pin you down in your bed, just like he supposedly was by falling masonry :ooh:

Sleeve Wing
4th Sep 2009, 17:45
K.Whyjelly was so right in his contribution, back in 2007.

>in the vain hope of getting a scarified young girl to seek protection in the strong manly arms of the hunky flightcrew!!!<

He referred, along with others, to the kindly apparition forced to spend his days terrifying any new cabin staff who used his old room in the west wing of the OM, now the St George Hotel.

I actually completed my Vampire night flying at M.St.G, whilst going through FTS at Linton in about October, 1962.

I was then subsequently detached regularly to Durham TeesValley Intergalactic Spaceport, (or MME to the cognicenti) whilst with an airline ( they paid more !), in the late 70s/early 80s.

On numerous occasions I have actually seen tears from female cabin crew when they found they couldn't have their allocated room changed and, yes, strong manly arms were often to be found around shuddering shoulders in efforts to console said stricken maidens !!
My, it sometimes took an awful lot of consolation......................

One of the "hunky flightcrew" back in such times was an ex-Meteor, then Sabre, driver called Barney Concannon.

Barney's claim to fame was that, after retiring from flying 707s and, in those days, DC9s, he wrote a novel.
I remember discussing this ambition in the bar, long before he actually wrote it and also how much time he actually spent researching the Meteor accident.

The book was published in 2001, by The Writers Cooperative, and was entitled "Black Billy".

It was an excellent read about the glory days of airline operation and, specifically, the tortured efforts of Black Billy (said ghost) to rid himself of his eternal travails.

Wonder if he's still there ?? ;) ;) ;)

barneyc
11th Sep 2009, 17:14
I wrote two articles in 'The Log' regarding the demise of F/O Norman. They can be read on my website: www.freewebs.com/barne (http://www.freewebs.com/barne).

The book 'Black Billy' is fiction inspired by my research into the above accident. It is now out of print but I can supply on CD or floppy in MS Word for cost of postage.

Still alive and kicking, but not flying.

barneyc
12th Sep 2009, 10:39
See Two articles published in 'The Log' re F/O Norman's accident on my website: www.freewebs.com/barne (http://www.freewebs.com/barne)

patrickoleary
25th Jan 2010, 10:47
hi warmtoast. you seem to be well up on meteor crashes . i have a puzzle to resolve. during sept 53 i was a bomb armourer at coningsby. some time during that period we had a visit by a 74 meteor sqdn . now all the articles ive seen and also threads to 74 sqdns bob cossey indicat that a meteor crashed while doing a fast low level run b,o,b day due to mechanicle failure . now unless there were two incidents that isnt what happened. we were working in the bomb dump that day and witnessed the whole event. a meteor took off on the main runway Rt to lft at about 60 feet or so he did a 180 flip, at the far end he did a verticle climb to a thousand feet or so then performed a falling leaf manouver at the bottom of which he levelled off to the left .he was so low at that point that he hit a 6ft raised dyke and exploded sending the cockpit and pilot forward like a rocket 2-300 ft also killing a number of cows. some of us were posted to guard the wreck .we understood the pilot was a sqdn/ ldr . the pilot bob cossey mentioned and in some reports said it was a fl/of ward . i still have a lens from the planes camera which was laying in the field..can you throw any light on this event . im contacting the local rag for archive info. best wishes

Warmtoast
25th Jan 2010, 12:11
patrickoleary


can you throw any light on this event

Sorry I can't help as I know no more than as reported in the press at the time (my post number 1 above).

Fangio
25th Jan 2010, 12:57
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the airborne collision in 1951 when two Meteor Mk 8s of 65 from Linton collided at 30,000ft. One pilot died, but the other, Sgt Bill Tollit ejected from an inverted spinning aircraft and landed in a field near Strubby still strapped in his seat minus gloves and mask which had been ripped off during the ejection, his fingers were frozen so that he could not release himself from the seat , he pulled the D-ring before passing into unconciousness. The chute had deployed from between his legs because the front of the seat had been damaged by the explosion allowing the chute to stream out between his legs, He suffered a fractured skull and frostbitten fingers.

Bill went on to fly for the R.C.A.F. in their F86 display team.
I knew him when he was at Cambrian on Viscounts in the late sixties, but sadly, the Big C got him and he died at an early age.

If my memory serves me correctly, his story was featured in a book called "Into the Silk" by Ian Mackersley.

clunckdriver
25th Jan 2010, 14:54
Does anyone have information of a Biggin Hill Mark 8 which crashed in either 55 or 56? The pilot was F/O Coulston {spelling?} ejected but died from injuries in hospital, he had just been punished for low flying in a Vampire around the South coast of England, I belive this was his first jet flight since being given a rocket by the board, he was in charge of the RAF gliding club on the base, he was kind enough to bend the rules and let me fly with them although I was not in the RAF.The loss rate at the peak of the Cold War was pretty bad in Canada as well, one course I was on we lost eleven out of fourteen in two years, the combination of eighteen year old pilots, and the early jets {CF100s} and our climate made for some interesting times!

Old-Duffer
25th Jan 2010, 19:20
Hi Clunkdriver

The chap in question is Fg Off Roger Thomas COULSTON and h crashed in Meteor F8 of 41 sqn on 13 Oct 56. Supposed to be engine failure followed by an unsuccessful abandonment

Hope this helps.

O-D

henry crun
26th Jan 2010, 03:28
patrickoleary: Broken Wings details all the major accidents of this period and the only one that happened at Coningsby in 1953 was that which was described in the newspaper clipping in post#1, and in my #4 post.

Neither of these bear any resemblance to the accident you describe, so I am at a loss to understand when or where you saw what you describe.

QuePee
26th Jan 2010, 12:10
This one seems to fit the bill.

19.09.53 WA836 Meteor F8 of 74 Sqn. Broke up during a high speed run at RAF Coningsby Battle of Britain display killing the pilot. The cause was attributed to a double main plane failure as a result of previous overstressing if the aircraft.
Flying Officer PR Ward.

QP

Warmtoast
27th Jan 2010, 22:46
Does anyone have information of a Biggin Hill Mark 8 which crashed in either 55 or 56? The pilot was F/O Coulston {spelling?} ejected but died from injuries in hospital

Press cutting about this event below. I was at Biggin Hill and according to my records 41 Sqn converted to Hunters from August 1955 onwards so I'm rather surprised that they were still flying Meteors 15-months later.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/14thOct1956.jpg

Addendum

Rectory Lane, Foots Cray.
Looks as though the pilot chose the only large open space around in which to crash.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/FootscrayGoogleImage.jpg

henry crun
28th Jan 2010, 03:05
They probably kept one or two for banner towing.

Landroger
28th Jan 2010, 10:33
Is there any truth to the story I heard many, many years ago as an Air Scout? Winston Churchill as Prime Minister (for the second time) is said to have flown in a two seat Meteor (T20?). During his preglight briefing, the pilot is reported to have said;

"Mr. Prime Minister, if I say 'Eject, Eject' and you say; 'Pardon?' - You are talking to yourself!"

Roger.

Old-Duffer
28th Jan 2010, 11:29
I didn't think any of the two seat British Meteors had ejection seats - certainly not fitted to the T7 or the NF11 to 14.

The 'you'll be talking to yourself' story is one of those tales often recounted. I've heard it used in a briefing for a passenger being flown in a JP.

The story which is true, as it is formally recorded, was Churchill showing concern as to the number of jet pilots being killed in fighters and the response from the then Air Minister was to reassure Churchill that there was nothing to be concerned about as these were the 'normal' figures. This was end 1952 or 53. There were about 500 crashes in both those years (507/483) and 318 (1952) and 333 (1953) fatalities.

oldbeefer
28th Jan 2010, 14:14
This http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/70987-meteor-accident-statistics.html was the thread a few years back about the dreadful accident rates (apologies if this has been posted earlier in this thread - if so, I couldn't find it).

BEagle
28th Jan 2010, 18:57
Thanks for the link, oldbeefer. Not just for the fascinating historical content, but also to remind one how good PPRuNe once was.......:\

Landroger
29th Jan 2010, 14:19
Thanks Old-Duffer, I always liked the story, but wondered if even back then anyone would have subjected such a venerable old gent to the rigour of fast jet flight! :eek:

Reading all the way through this thread it is depressing, as well as startling, to see just how many crashes there were. On the V-Bomber crash near Marham, someone quoted just how many aircraft and aircrew the RAF lost between 1948 and 1998 and it reads like an earthquake disaster.

I have always held the RAF in great regard, but these figures increase my respect immensely.

Roger.

herkman
29th Jan 2010, 23:03
I was told by a reserve pilot in 1957, he had served with the RAAF in Korea, that the Meatbox could be a bit of a handfull when flown with the external fusalage tank fitted and full.

Sorry I cannot remember the full details, but was told that several aircraft had fallen foul
of this configeration.

Regards

Col

26er
30th Jan 2010, 08:01
Probably all Meteors in Korea were a bit of a handful, being outclassed by all other types. However it was normal for RAF squadrons in the fifties to fly with ventral tanks at all times and I can't remember any special difficulties. You will be pushed to find photos from that time of Meteors without them. Wing drop tanks were another thing entirely causing the old darlings to wallow like a rowing boat in a high sea.

urbs
4th Mar 2010, 18:04
I knew F/O Roger Thomas Coulston. The crash was on 13.10.1956 and he died on 14.10.1956. He is buried at Biggin Hill Cemetry grave 224, very sad RAF headstone and getting difficult to read, saying 'The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible.' His father was a vicar and he came from Devon, though I do not know where in Devon. Roger loved flying and was happy and fun. By chance I was on the beach when he flew low over Littlehampton. I am angry that the RAF could not have grouped these pilots together and kept a roll of honour in the Biggin Hill Chapel. They all deserve better. Good luck with your endeavours.

Old-Duffer
5th Mar 2010, 05:57
In the UK then (and now globally) service personnel are buried/cremated in accordance with their family's wishes.

All RAF personnel who have died are commemorated in Books of Remembrance at St Clement Danes in the Strand and there are 'copy' versions available to be looked through, although the 'real' engraved books are under glass and a page is turned each day. Since 1 Jan 48, all Service personnel who died 'on duty' - as opposed to in their beds (no disrespect intended) - are also commemorated at the Armed Forces Memorial at Alrewas (impressive place to see).

The commemoration is not made at Biggin Hill Chapel because there was never any absolute certainty of permanence about the station and as we now know, the RAF is gone and it is only by good fortune that the chapel remains.

I think you can be assured that whatever else you might think is wrong, the RAF does honour its dead. Indeed Alrewas was created in part because ONLY the RAF had a central record of all its deaths in service, with the RN close behind and the Army using the Regimental/Corps system.

O-D

clunckdriver
7th Mar 2010, 17:03
Urbs, check you PMs.

clffy180
28th Oct 2010, 17:20
dear sir , thankyou for placeing the news paper cutting of rogers accident 13/10/56 on the website , roger was my dads cousin and my dad had the cutting in his wallet , my dad passed away in 1984 and he told us all how close he was to roger and also carried rogers photo in his wallet and was very proud of roger, during ww2 my dad was a royal marine commando and and i look at that roger was a very special person for my dad to be so close to him, i note that a chap on one on the pages of this website that he says roger lived in devon but roger was born and came from liverpool, i read the newspaper cutting and get a lump in my throat and feel very proud of roger and all the service men and women who give there lives to protect our great country , once again a big thankyou for helping my family for finding roger, clifford coulston

clunckdriver
28th Oct 2010, 18:34
Clffy 180, check your PMs.

Warmtoast
29th Oct 2010, 12:02
clffy 180

If you look at my post 29 above (Page 2) in this forum you'll see a photo I took of a 41 Sqn Meteor similar to the one in which Roger Coulston died.

Although I have many B & W photos of 41 Sqn Meteors that I took whilst at Biggin, the one in post number 29 is the only one I took of a 41 Sqn Meteor in colour.

capbill
14th Aug 2011, 02:18
I have searched book stores and online stores for Barney's book. When I worked at MME, I never got chance to ask him for a copy. At last! I'll have to work out how to get a copy now!:D

26er
14th Aug 2011, 10:30
Getting back to the original contributions about Meteors does anyone remember the chap reputed to have been given both a "red endorsment" and a "green" for the same flight in a NF11? It seems he took off at night, possibly from Duxford, and climbing in trail found he was rapidly catching up his leader until both engines stopped whereupon he managed a deadstick back on the runway from which he had departed. He hadn't noticed that the aircraft had not been refuelled.

Incidentally I remember an edict to the staff from Wg Cdr Hyland-Smith, O.C. Flying at 210 AFS Tarrant Rushton that we should not refer to the aircraft as "Meatbox" which might give some students cause for thought.

cazatou
14th Aug 2011, 11:13
At the Coronation Review of July 1953, no fewer than 216 Meteor F.8s flew past in formation as HM the Queen took the salute at RAF Odiham

henry crun
14th Aug 2011, 22:12
26er: I think the event you refer to was at Stradishall.

26er
15th Aug 2011, 08:58
Henry,

Certainly could have been but did they have night fighters there? My recollection is that Strad was a Meteor T7/F8 AFS.

In 1957 ish Fighter Command used to publish a flight safety document monthly in which such pearls as described proliferated. Another that sticks in my mind concerned Slash Slaney who had arrived at Chivenor as a tactical instructor. A group of us were discussing the latest incident which concerned a Thursday excercise when all the airfields were "red" but sector nevertheless scrambled a pair of Hunters. After a fruitless trip around the South East the time came to return. The only place vaguely workable was Biggin. As the pair of brave aviators were being GCA'd, through a hole in the overcast the wingman glimpsed a runway and made a dart at it. It turned out to be Kenley. His lead got down at Biggin. Both were flying on fumes. Slash in his sardonic fashion said "that was me". The controller who had initiated the scramble had gone to lunch!

brakedwell
15th Aug 2011, 09:40
Sorry Henry, it was Odiham. I went to school on the south side of the airfield and remember wave after wave of Meteors and Vampires practicing for the big day. (Less than five years later I too was airborne in a Meteor 8, enjoying the clear blue skies of Cyprus).

RAF Royal Review 15th July 1953 (http://daveg4otu.tripod.com/nos10.html)

henry crun
15th Aug 2011, 09:49
brakedwell: You are confusing one post with another.
I was refering to the post by 26er about a pilot who reputedly was awarded a green and red endorsement for the same trip.

I am well aware that the Coronation Review was at Odiham, I participated in it. :)

26er: yes, Strad had N/F's in the form of 125 and 89 in the mid 1950's.

brakedwell
15th Aug 2011, 09:59
Apologies Henry :ouch:

Actually
19th Feb 2014, 10:28
Hello Clunkdriver, did you ever have your photo taken with Roger at the Gliding Club, when a chap called Brennan visited (think he was luftwaffe) - it went into the local paper? Plane Roger crashed in was meteor 8 no.WA855 - a reject for Paris trip, having failed drop-tank test, so Roger, desperate to fly again after being grounded for low-flying, took it up instead of another Meteor that passed the test and went to France (I assume!). Of course, the plane was air-worthy when it took off from Biggin, but an hour later something happened (still trying to work out what), and he crashed it in Sidcup (Foots Cray), landing in ejector seat through trees onto tarmac driveway of a rectory. I have the photo of the Gliding Club, by the way, and would be glad to send if we are able to link up through this website? Plus anything else you would like to know, I will do my best to answer.

Actually
19th Feb 2014, 10:39
Hello Urbs, bit of background on Roger Coulston. His uncle Jim was the minister of a church in Toxteth, Liverpool. His dad, Tom, was in the RAF during WW2 - rank T/C; group 5; trade class. ACH/P.T.I (1941). Later Tom and wife ran approved school at Foston, Derbyshire. Then moved to Totnes in Devon, where they ran a boys home - Critchel Hostel (now demolished). This was Roger's home during the fifties. Later his mum and dad retired to Ashburton in Devon. Glad to know you knew him personally as I didn't, but been following his career with interest and know he was a bit of a character. Lined up Totnes in a Hunter once, and broke sound barrier over the town. Later phoned his parents, who announced huge bang just that morning... It got in the local paper. Roger liked things like that! Wish he had spoken more on R/T and on the ground after the crash, to explain what he was experiencing regarding what went wrong with the plane. Lack of info. means we don't know exactly what happened. Shame.

Actually
19th Feb 2014, 10:47
Hi Clifford, wonder what part of the family you are? - are you to do with Jim, Tom Coulston's brother? Roger ended up in Devon, at Totnes, where his parents ran a boys' home called Critchel Hostel (now demolished). You obviously know a lot about him, but maybe you need to know more? Will try and contact you through this website. Be assured, we care very much about Roger and have been trying to find out as much as possible for many years. This new internet interest has re-opened it all, and we are very pleased. Return to other sites you have visited and you will dig up more info. pictures, etc., Hope we will see you one day.

Actually
19th Feb 2014, 10:57
Dear Warmtoast, please look through your b&w pictures of Meteors at Biggin, and see if you have WA855? Would love a copy!

Dennis Kenyon
20th Feb 2014, 21:25
Hi Pruners ... I've posted on the subject elsewhere, but I'm asking if any guys/gals on here were present on the night of February 12th 1954 when 209 AFS at Weston Zoyland lost four Meteors with two pilots killed when they were diverted to Merryfield due to fog at WZ.

I was flying a Mk7 that night and was held overhead at 20,000 feet while the blocked runway was being cleared. I eventually managed to force land on the airfield grass alongside the runways goosenecks.

A couple of years ago I wrote a piece for the LOOP aviation newspaper entitled ... "The Night it Rained Meteors." I've now been asked to do a further article on the subject and would welcome hearing from any personnel who were on duty or flying that night ... ATC, ground engineers, pilots etc. Reply here or e-mail: [email protected]. Many thanks for any information. DRK.

thing
20th Feb 2014, 21:37
Don't know if this is myth but I believe that more pilots were killed doing asymmetric practice in the meatbox than were killed during actual single engine failures. Those stats seem unbelievable now. I seem to remember the RAF lost something like 850 Meteors and 350 pilots flying them.

Was the Meatbox that bad an aircraft or were flying standards a lot poorer?

Warmtoast
20th Feb 2014, 22:14
Actually

Dear Warmtoast, please look through your b&w pictures of Meteors at Biggin, and see if you have WA855? Would love a copy!

No WA855 - sorry.

WT

Danny42C
20th Feb 2014, 23:39
thing,

I believe what you heard about the Meteor 7 was true - I heard the same story, going through the Conversion at 203 AFS, Driffield, in early '50.

But, the (incredible) practice at first was to do asymmetric training with one flamed out (so you'd "burned your boats", if the approach went wrong there was no way out or back - and no "bang" seat either).

In the version told to me, it was an AM statistician who first noticed that that the accident rate from this practice exceeded the failiure rate of Derwent engines. When this became known, sanity returned; (thankfully, by the time I came along) practices were done with an idling engine - and that was bad enough !

A contributory factor in the carnage was that the "new boys" had been trained on Oxfords on their previous SFTSs before they came to AFS. They weren't given a fair crack of the whip. (This continued to '53 to my knowledge).

We "old men" were much better off (I'd flown Harvard, Hurricane, Spitfire and P47 -Thunderbolt, beside my Vengeance dive-bomber) - and it wasn't easy for me.

My opinion (on very little experience): the Meteor was a pussycat on two or one above 200 kts - much below that (particularly on one) it was all kinds of bitch. The Vampire was a pussycat - always.

IMHO, there's the major cause of the training accident rate in those years.

Danny.

"The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there"

thing
20th Feb 2014, 23:51
As you say Danny, the past is a different country. My uncle was killed in a training accident in an Albemarle. Apparently there was a 'dead man's spot' on take off where if you lost a donk basically you bought it. Which is exactly what happened to him. I heard the Beaufort was a bit of a pig on one donk as well.

John Farley
21st Feb 2014, 09:44
thing

What you are talking about with your uncle is the airspeed gap (in those days) between normal unstick speed and the higher speed at which full power on one engine and nothing on the other could be controlled by full rudder and a bit of aileron (this speed was often called single engined safety speed now V min control air - Vmca - with today's certification paperwork).

I believe with some WWII types it could be as long as 30 secs before this extra speed could be built up. The only solution with such types was to immediatley shut the good throttle and glide in straiight ahead. Any delay and it was likely the aircraft would roll uncontrollably into the ground.

Today airliners have a Vmcs that is below unstick speed (you will be pleased to know)

Actually
21st Feb 2014, 09:51
Thanks for looking, Warmtoast, much appreciated.

bigglesbrother
21st Feb 2014, 13:30
A chum of mine in the USMC served on exchange at RAF Horsham St Faiths then RAF Coltishall. We had a useful Station Flight where we could get extra flying on aircraft ranging from an Anson to a Meteor NF-14.

My chum wrote yesterday in response to this Pprune Meteor reminiscence blog

I remember well the Meteor 7 and 8…I liked the climb and turn in them! The 7 was prehistoric with no pressurization! They were both fun to fly and had good climb rate…
In those early days I checked into the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing at Cherry Point, NC in 1957 as a 2nd Lt right out of flight school…In 1956 they’d lost 80 aircraft but I forget how many pilots…All the US air forces must have lost close to 1,000 between them that year! SF

This raises an interesting question:what other types of jet aircraft did the RAF have in service that had NO pressurisation?

thing
21st Feb 2014, 14:47
What you are talking about with your uncle is the airspeed gap (in those days) between normal unstick speed and the higher speed at which full power on one engine and nothing on the other could be controlled by full rudder and a bit of aileron (this speed was often called single engined safety speed now V min control air - Vmca - with today's certification paperwork).

Thanks John. I'm not MEP qualified but talking to some of the guys that are at the club I was surprised to find that a lot of WWII era twins (even the Mosquito) had quite a gap between unstick and Vmca. Mu uncle's crash was as you described, lost an engine at around 100' on take off and it just rolled onto it's side and went in. Probably by the time he had figured out what had happened and throttled back on the live engine it was too late.

meteorian
2nd Mar 2015, 18:45
New boy here - having spent much time idling over this forum and reading about experiences etc it strikes me this would make a decent documentary programme for TV.

Does anyone know if this has ever been spoken about or suggested previously ?

I am about to start reading Nick Carter's "Meteor Eject!" with a view to creating a slideshow/filmshow for my local air cadets (my daughter is a cadet) and at this early stage I will do well to keep it below an hour with all your fantastic anecdotes.

My personal history ? I was an Armourer at Brawdy 78-82 and worked on Mr Catt's Meteor and marvelled at the simplicity of a primitive Martin Baker seat - and by the sounds of it some of you would have been very grateful for one in the early Meteors !

I have some contacts in the TV world so will try my luck at pitching a documentary of sorts.

This one stat should surely get them interested:

"1953 was a bad year, 486 aircraft lost with 334 fatalities" - from earlier in the thread.

Thank you for sharing these amazing stories.

Danny42C
3rd Mar 2015, 00:44
meteorian,

Welcome aboard ! If you want some really good old tales, try "Gaining a RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII" on this page at the moment.

Your: "and by the sounds of it some of you would have been very grateful for one in the early Meteors !" Too true ! (particularly in the T7, with that side-opening canopy with the "Georgian windows").

D.

Wander00
3rd Mar 2015, 08:31
unpressurised jets - JP Mks 3 & 4!

ORAC
3rd Mar 2015, 08:56
Does anyone know if this has ever been spoken about or suggested previously ? Amazon authors page. Colin Cummings

5aday
3rd Mar 2015, 21:11
I do have some photos of a Meteor formation team in the 53/54 period. My father was a pilot and instructor at Middleton and also flew in this formation team. I'll try and copy the photos to this website
Dave Morton

Firestreak
4th Mar 2015, 05:47
Re the structural failures in the Meteor, I was once told that it all went back to a particular sortie at the OCU.

This was in days before fatigue meters were in use. Apparently one sortie involved winding the aircraft up as fast as you could at a couple of thousand feet then just sticking it on it's ear and pulling as hard as you could. Most 'g' meters simply stopped at @6g so didn't show the g being pulled in the manoeuvre, when fatigue meters became more common it was found that it was not uncommon for 10g to be recorded. If pilots were still doing this on the Sqns, then airframes became severely overstressed without any monitoring.

I've no personal knowledge of this but the story was told to me by an old Meteor driver when I was checking out on the T7.

26er
4th Mar 2015, 08:03
I last flew a Meteor in 1969, but had continuously driven them since AFS in 1951. As I often checked guys out on the beast, in later years I would point out my personal max speed of 400kts, not the 520kts described in Pilot's Notes. My limit was because of the frightening creaks and groans the beast could make when doing anything out of the ordinary e.g. in that quiet moment at the top of a stall turn with the throttles closed and the aircraft yawing. And there seemed to be no requirement to go particularly fast! (I seem to remember that 455 was the Vampire limit). .

Buster Hyman
4th Mar 2015, 09:21
On a side note, and totally off topic, can I just say it was a pleasure to watch the Meteor flying on the weekend. I'd never seen one doing its stuff live before...

Sorry, carry on! :ok:

zetec2
4th Mar 2015, 09:36
Notice Meteors can have 2 different size intake "orifices" I had it explained that the small diameter intakes were for low level operations etc (PR ?) and the large diameter intakes were for general use and high altitude can anyone confirm ? and how did it affect the aircraft`s handling and performance on the different intakes, also did squadrons hold both types for different sorties ?, PH.

binbrook
4th Mar 2015, 15:25
The light may have dawned in the early 50s, and asymmetric practice landings with an engine out may have been forbidden, but there were still QFIs who knew better. In 1956 the aptly-named Short Asymmetric Course at Worksop lasted 6 weeks and included about 25 Meteor hours, two-thirds of which were dual and of these 80% asymmetric. After establishing my crit speed (130+ish) my 'Sir' closed an HP cock almost every time I passed it, leaving me to totter round the circuit really 'on one'. Just before landing the Maestro would relight the dead engine, take control as I touched down, bring the rpm up as he rolled, hand back control, and close one HP cock or the other as I passed crit speed again. Made quite an impression on a young man.

Quietplease
5th Mar 2015, 16:49
Been there, done that, early 1957. Worksop, what a dump!
First flight, rudder pedals adjusted for over-centre geometric knee lock and firm grasp of both throttles to slow any attempt at retard. At about 125 knots HP cock ( which were out of view on rear cockpit wall) was shut. Never spent more than a couple of minutes on two after that. It was, after all, an asymmetric course. Made the Canberra seem a doddle.
We fresh-faced youths, just off Vampires, used to enjoy watching the oldies off Shacks and Hastings doing the jet refresher course. They could hardly climb down the side of a Mk7 and stagger back to the crew room.

Danny42C
5th Mar 2015, 17:39
Quietplease,

Same in '50 (Driffield) and '54 (Weston Zoyland). Nothing changes ! And I seem to remember that the HP and LP quadrants were together down at the bottom of the LH side of your seat (I could be wrong).

Happy days ! Danny.

Atrix
12th Dec 2015, 14:34
I believe that a T7, WA654 may have been the last Meteor to be lost in 1953. This was taken up for an engine test by my father Flt Lt R.F. Fisher on New Year’s Eve 1953 at Manby. The a/c suffered an engine fire and he lost his life – although an Airman with him on an air experience flight was saved.
I’ve been searching for a photo of WA654 for some years without success.I have the MOD report on this incident and it is accessible at Kew – it makes interesting reading with regard to asymmetric flight characteristics and abandoning the T7 etc.

JW411
12th Dec 2015, 15:31
I have sent you a PM (Private Message) which might be helpful.

Exnomad
13th Dec 2015, 14:47
I did my NS 1951-53, started a pilot coursew but failed on Oxfords and became a NAV.
During my service, at least three of my intake were killed on Meteors, it seemed I was lucky to have failed.

nzhills
4th Feb 2016, 07:58
Hi,

I'm the son of a crun, henry crun in this instance. Henry has departed the mortal world but I asked him to make an mp3 recording of his log books, talk me through the entries etc. I've clipped these to his memories of the accident the original poster described.

This'll be my first effort at putting an playing an mp3 here. Anyway, paste the link below into your browser to listen to 3 minutes of audio. I think Google drive will ask you to download the file. Please tell me if there are any difficulties.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By1hImoM7zWPLTZUSzI1LVZBU0k&usp=sharing

Regards
Mark

26er
4th Feb 2016, 09:21
Getting away from the Meteor a bit, I remember a cunning mod to the Goblin fitted to our Vampire 5s at Tarrant Rushton (1953). Some aircraft had experienced trouble with the aneroid capsule of the barostat sticking resulting in constant rpm. At high altitude this would be at high rpm but the subsequent descent with an unresponsive "go lever" could be embarrassing. So a little hammer was attached to the barostat with a button on the right cockpit wall which when pressed would tap madly on the gubbins and hopefully free the offending bit. The engineers explained that it had never been a requirement on piston engines as the whole thing vibrated anyway.

DODGYOLDFART
4th Feb 2016, 10:01
Ah yes, the good old 1950's. Those were the days when BOE's always started out by assuming all accident's either were caused or contributed to by pilot error. This seemed to be particularly the case if the driver had got the chop. Just occasionally servicing was blamed but only very rarely a design or manufacturing malfunction.

Bull at a Gate
4th Feb 2016, 10:45
Nzhills, I am sorry to hear of your father's loss. I really enjoyed his posts which were both erudite and witty. I had noticed that he hadn't been posting much lately, either here or elsewhere and now I know why. He will be missed.

LowObservable
4th Feb 2016, 18:50
Those were the days when BOE's always started out by assuming all accident's either were caused or contributed to by pilot error.

That seems to be how V-22 accident investigations are still done.

Actually
12th Apr 2018, 14:08
Does anyone have information of a Biggin Hill Mark 8 which crashed in either 55 or 56? The pilot was F/O Coulston {spelling?} ejected but died from injuries in hospital, he had just been punished for low flying in a Vampire around the South coast of England, I belive this was his first jet flight since being given a rocket by the board, he was in charge of the RAF gliding club on the base, he was kind enough to bend the rules and let me fly with them although I was not in the RAF.The loss rate at the peak of the Cold War was pretty bad in Canada as well, one course I was on we lost eleven out of fourteen in two years, the combination of eighteen year old pilots, and the early jets {CF100s} and our climate made for some interesting times!
ROGER COULSTON'S crash is chronicled in the new up-dated edition of "Empire Of The Clouds", by James Hamilton-Paterson, just published in time for the RAF 100th anniversary. The author lived in Rectory Lane at the time and his mother was the duty anesthetist at Queen Mary's Hospital, Sidcup, that day. Quite a few pages are devoted to the subject and the rest of the book is worth reading as it overviews Britain's best years as an aircraft-producer; full of facts and humour. Wordery do a good price, post-free offer some of you may like to investigate! Please note it is the 2018 updated edition, not the earlier one.

Treble one
12th Apr 2018, 14:55
I believe that a T7, WA654 may have been the last Meteor to be lost in 1953. This was taken up for an engine test by my father Flt Lt R.F. Fisher on New Year’s Eve 1953 at Manby. The a/c suffered an engine fire and he lost his life – although an Airman with him on an air experience flight was saved.
I’ve been searching for a photo of WA654 for some years without success.I have the MOD report on this incident and it is accessible at Kew – it makes interesting reading with regard to asymmetric flight characteristics and abandoning the T7 etc.

A former Meteor pilot who I knew, with experience on several marks (including two seaters T7, NF versions IIRC) told me that the rumour going around at the time was if you pulled the jettison canopy handle when attempting to abandon the aircraft, that very heavy canopy had a very good chance of decapitating both occupants!

Not fun as of course no bang seats in the two seat marks....Indeed he and his 'Nav' had a pact that they wouldn't tell their wives that there were no Martin Baker facilities available (He had previously flown the F.8 where there were I believe). Their wives only found out by accident many years later.

roving
12th Apr 2018, 15:20
WF778 Gloster Meteor T7 d/d 05/04/1951, scr. 05/03/1958 at No.12 MU Kirkbride to H H Bushell & Co

This is the T7 613 Aux Air Squadron used in 1951 to convert from Spitfires to jets before chancing their lives in single seater Vampires (without bang seats). I am not sure if my dad was flying it or took the photo.

Wander00
12th Apr 2018, 18:28
I have been helping a friend with her Father's Record of Service as she could not decode the abbreviations. Interestingly after tours on 4 engine heavies he was posted to 231OCU, for Canberra training, which included time at Worksop on the assymetric course. He failed on jets, was returned to 4 engine heavies and his last RAF tour was as a Captain on Washingtons of 192 Sqn, where he won an AFC

Mike Gallafent
29th Apr 2018, 15:05
The high fatality rate in 1953 reflected lower standards of flight safety. Exercise Coronet (2nd TAF v, 4th TAF) took places without low flying limits as Germany was still divided into zones. Dog fighting at very low altitudes was very much a white knuckle experience (especially between hangars). It was understood that eleven aircrew lost their lives in this exercise. In consequence low flying limits were introduced

Actually
11th May 2018, 10:44
clunckdriver, can you enlighten me more about Roger Coulston's gliding club and how you came to get involved? Were you ever part of a newspaper photo-shoot when a famous pilot visited the base and Roger and the men with him at the club that day were photographed together with a glider behind? If you can furnish me with any details, however tiny, I would appreciate it. I am his youngest nephew, Dan, and I have spent the last 46 years investigating his crash and trying to get to know who he was, having been born 9 years after he died (he was my dad's brother). Please wrack your brains and take yourself back to those days, can you tell me all about how it was then? What was Roger like? I know a heck of a lot about his accident, probably all there is to know! I can explain it in detail if you'd like to know. Best wishes from Dan Coulston in England.

Fonsini
13th May 2018, 12:28
What were the flight limitations of a Meteor on one engine, could it maintain height or even climb, or were you committed to a landing. I’m assuming that an engine failure an unstick was unsustainable ?

Danny42C
13th May 2018, 15:52
Fonsini (#138),

Had very little time on them, only flew the Mk.7 (T); haven't got the Pilots' Notes; it was a very long time ago .......

But that said, from memory:

Meteor on one, 200 kts, fine, nearly as good as two, certainly would climb.

Meteor on one, wheels 'n flaps down, below 150 kts, all kinds of pig. With full rudder trim on, a chap with normal leg strength might do a go-around at a minimum of 125 kts, below that it was "Goodnight, nurse!"

Engine failure on "unstick" ? No hope, I would say, unless you'd accelerated to 130 kts, even then you'd be lucky.

Was a chap at Middleton-St-George, landed on one, saw he was running out of runway, decided to open up the live one and go-around. The thing bolted off onto the grass, described a graceful arc round the camp, first thing he hit was the window of his own room on the ground floor of the officer's Mess. The nose went in all right, but then the engines took out the supporting brickwork, the lintel fell on his head, and that was that.

The repaired brickwork was an object of interest for many years, the RAF station closed and became Teesside Airport (beg its pardon, the "Durham and Tees Valley" Airport). The Mess became the "George Hotel": it is said his ghost still haunts the West Wing.

That's all I know, there are plenty of other old-timers here who can put me right.

Danny.

Fonsini
13th May 2018, 18:11
Thanks Danny, you have a good memory !

Fareastdriver
13th May 2018, 20:01
The repaired brickwork was an object of interest for many years, the RAF station closed and became Teesside Airport (beg its pardon, the "Durham and Tees Valley" Airport). The Mess became the "George Hotel": it is said his ghost still haunts the West Wing.

When I was operating out of Teeside in the late 70s this story was a good introduction to the hosties night stopping in the hotel. :ok:

LOMCEVAK
13th May 2018, 21:02
Fonsini,
The figures related to an engine failure after take-off for a Meteor variant that I have flown that has the big fin and rudder and Derwent 9 engines:
Unstick was 120 - 130 KIAS. If an engine failed below 130 KIAS the only option was to close both throttles and land straight ahead (or eject!). Following an engine failure between 130 and 165 KIAS, power had to be reduced on the good engine in order to maintain control using rudder and aileron, and once control had been regained full power was re-applied to accelerate to and then climb at 200 KIAS which was the best single engine climb speed. As much rudder as possible was applied (typically the forces were too high to achieve full deflection) and then 5 - 10 deg of bank towards the live engine was also used to help maintain straight flight. With the gear and flaps up a rate of climb could be achieved at 135 KIAS and above. 165 KIAS was defined as 'safety speed' and an engine failure at or above this speed could be controlled without reducing power.
Rgds
L

glad rag
13th May 2018, 21:14
Nzhills, I am sorry to hear of your father's loss. I really enjoyed his posts which were both erudite and witty. I had noticed that he hadn't been posting much lately, either here or elsewhere and now I know why. He will be missed.
Ahh nuts. Very sorry to hear of your loss Nzhills.

Fonsini
14th May 2018, 01:05
Fonsini,
The figures related to an engine failure after take-off for a Meteor variant that I have flown that has the big fin and rudder and Derwent 9 engines:
Unstick was 120 - 130 KIAS. If an engine failed below 130 KIAS the only option was to close both throttles and land straight ahead (or eject!). Following an engine failure between 130 and 165 KIAS, power had to be reduced on the good engine in order to maintain control using rudder and aileron, and once control had been regained full power was re-applied to accelerate to and then climb at 200 KIAS which was the best single engine climb speed. As much rudder as possible was applied (typically the forces were too high to achieve full deflection) and then 5 - 10 deg of bank towards the live engine was also used to help maintain straight flight. With the gear and flaps up a rate of climb could be achieved at 135 KIAS and above. 165 KIAS was defined as 'safety speed' and an engine failure at or above this speed could be controlled without reducing power.
Rgds
L

Single engine climb at 135kts, I’m impressed. Info much appreciated.

nzhills
23rd Dec 2018, 08:38
Hi this is henry crun's son, I've finally got round to putting some of my Dad's audio memories onto a website, so if you want to hear a first hand account of the Conningsby Meteor F8 crash go to the website, below then click the play arrow in the top right of the screen. http://chirb.it/Pmd0EM

Geriaviator
26th Dec 2018, 14:30
One day in 1953 when I was 12 years old the Leuchars Patch was shaken by the dull thump we knew only too well. My mother and I saw a vast pillar of black smoke and flame rising from the railway station about 400 yds away, in those days the Patch was only half its present size and we lived on the corner.

We ran down to the crash site to find two of my friends in hysterics, they had been trainspotting beside the up line when a Meteor crashed vertically across the road from them and no more than 60ft away. The lunchtime train to St. Andrews was at the station platform, loaded for departure. My friend Alan was blackened by soot from the burning aircraft. Another friend who had been walking to join the spotters said he had seen the Meteor pilot waving and had waved back as the aircraft turned steeply and dived into the ground.

The pilot, Group Captain Norman Bray, DFC, had just been checked out on the T7 and was on finals when the hood opened, upsetting the airflow around the tail and contributing to the Meteor spinning in. His 'wave' to my friend was probably an attempt to close the hood although it could have been jettisoned via a lever in the cockpit. Gp Capt Bray is buried in Leuchars cemetery. Two other Leuchars Meteors were lost that year but, as has been said, nobody seemed too worried about it.

DODGYOLDFART
27th Dec 2018, 17:03
Most of the posts on this thread seem to concern the early marks of Meteor with a lot of mention of the Marks 4, 7 and 8. However not much mention of the night fighter versions 11, 12, 13 & 14, none of which in their operational configuration had ejector seats. I appreciate there were far fewer of these in service and they were a very different design to the single seat types and the seven. However were they not a lot heavier and underpowered like the rest! So what percentage of these took the quick route to the scrap yard?

Geriaviator
28th Dec 2018, 14:21
Danny did mention the NF variants either in one of his posts or in some of the material we reviewed for his book. I'm sorry I cannot find the reference but I do think the fatals were in similar proportion. Danny quoted the Meteor pilot losses and a much smaller number of navigators which he attributed to the NF versions. I think one NF was lost during our time at Leuchars 1953/54.