Comair taking unnecessary flak

[Rotates Lowly]

Finance24Comair fined for EE actions2007-11-13 18:55Cape Town - The Labour Department has taken Comair to court for breaching provisions of the Employment Equity Act, according to the government's news agency Bua News.
The agency reported on Tuesday that the department's director-general Vanguard Mkosana filed the application with the Johannesburg labour court after giving several warnings to the airline.
According to the application, Comair has been found to be in breach of the following provisions of the Employment Equity Act:
Section 20 of Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998, by failing to prepare and implement an Employment Equity Plan which would achieve reasonable progress towards employment equity in the respondent's workplace between the periods 2000 to September 2007;
Section 21 (2) (3) (4) and (5) by submitting reports to the first applicant which were not based on any existing Employment Equity Plan of the respondent and/or submitting falsified reports;
Section 21 (3) of Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998 by failing to submit a report to the Director General on the first working day of October 2007;
Section 24 of Employment Equity Act, in that Comair failed to assign one or more senior managers to take responsibility for monitoring and implementing an EE Plan from 2000 to 26 March 2007; and
Section 26 of EE Act 55 of 1998 by failing to keep records in respect of its workforce, its EE Plan and other records relevant for purposes of compliance with the EE Act 55 of 1998.
Comair is also being ordered to pay a fine of R900 000 as prescribed by schedule 1 of the Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998 and to pay the costs of the application.
The company is also required to file notice of intention to oppose and an answering affidavit within 10 days from the date the application was served.
If no intention to oppose and an answering affidavit were filed as required in the notice of motion, the application might be heard in the respondent's absence and an order for costs might be sought against the respondent.
- I-Net Bridge
I-Net Bridge (Business)
My view: Comair has done more than all but one airline in this country to adress the so called imbalance. Which other airline except SAA has a continuously running cadet program? The Captain group at Comair is being viewed by the government as "management" and as a result "too white". Show me one airline in this country that has achieved the required complement of black managers.
I am tired of this crap.

[hiflyerz]

To all business in SA,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,hmmmmmmmmm, how unusual!!:(:(:(

[sayswho]

Once again South Africa gives the rest of the world reason to sit around and have another laugh at our expence.
This is madness, another good company that could potentially face ownership change if EE gets away with this.
What is it with these people? why do they insist on taking a perfectly good company and enforcing some rediculous rules that suit purely themselves? Are the indigenous so stupid that they believe they will benefit from this? Just yesterday I read an article that there are a greater number of poor people now than in 1996, so pray tell how does the average person benefit? Guess he doesn't just the few fat cats in parliment.

Hopefully one day we will wake up, I for one don't want to live in another Zimbabwe!

:mad: :=

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Too late. Already more farmers murdered in SA than ever happened in Zim...:(

[Jamex]

"This is madness, another good company that could potentially face ownership change if EE gets away with this.
What is it with these people? why do they insist on taking a perfectly good company and enforcing some rediculous rules that suit purely themselves? Are the indigenous so stupid that they believe they will benefit from this? Just yesterday I read an article that there are a greater number of poor people now than in 1996, so pray tell how does the average person benefit? Guess he doesn't just the few fat cats in parliment."

Sayswho, you said it in your first line. The ownership change they want is for the "new elite" to own everything. The African mindset, as demonstrated throughout Africa, is "Too much is not enough" otherwise known as greed on an unimaginable scale. No, the indigenous people are not stupid. Name a system in this country whether it be banking system, car registration system, drivers licences or whatever and they have come up with mind-boggling ways to circumvent or subvert said system. Ways neither you nor I could have dreamed of. Stupidity in SA cannot be measured as a lack of brains but rather in the criminally lazy attitude and pathetic lack of integrity demonstrated to date. As for the fat cats in parliament, they dont want to work neither and are happy to be dishing out sufficient crumbs to ensure they get the votes and retain their seats on the gravy train. Then too, anybody who thinks we are better off than Zim needs to look at the latest Mo Schaik Index (no relation to Shabir, by the way)to see that Zim scores higher as a safer place to stay than SA managed. Put simply we are worse off than Zim!

[Oom Kaspaas]

Whats the problem. Bend over and take it. SAA has to and they get it from all sides

[fluffyfan]

Just playing Devils Avocate here.....but go ahead shoot me down.

SAA has been hamstrung (financially) by having to comply with the BEE laws for a while now, and to be honest with you its probably only right, 95% of the pilots in SA are white male, so you can understand the governments concern, the fact that they have done nothing to develop an interest in aviation amongst the PD people or offer a pittiful little Cadet programme that just serves the interests of a few politicians and training captains children, means nothing to the government, they are far happier promoting people who were never disadvantaged in the first place and in Comairs case taking them to court.

I suspected something like this would happen, Comair has been bitching about SAA for so long while having a firm hand in many of the dubious practices that SAA was involved in ie, the demise of Sunair, and the Agents Comission etc.... oh and lets not forget making full use of SAA technical......maybe its payback time.

[sayswho]

Hey Fluffy, guess nothing sensible will ever come out of your mouth!
Underhanded dealings are one thing and are not to be confused with the case at hand here.
You work for a goverment airline so you are in no position to compare. If your airline had to face competition in the same way as the rest out there you would be no more!
The argument here is should a hard working airline that has had to compete with such :mad: as the airline you affiliate yourself with now have to bow to 'political' pressure? Sure you would enjoy that! afterall it would give your miserable position an excuse for existance should another fold.
I would love to see Comair stick it to the goverment and to the rest of you BEE huggers out there

Remember Fluffy BA carries the Springboks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Oom Kaspaas]

Sayswho. Not so lekker when the shoe is on the other foot.

comair kry vir julle

[pointer41]

The issue is not being partially state owned/supported or not. The issue is that top management need to be really on top of things in the highly complex and competitive field of aviation. A professor once said that the "top elite" must be of impeccable integrity and of the highest competence. Never was ancestral origins in the equation, but it is sad for the entire industry when the racial card is used to force people into positions where quite frankly, they can cause irreparable damage and harm. Such positions are earned by hard work and experience, and you cannot take the time required factor out of experience. If you do, its called something else: fast tracking!

Sad, it is.:sad::sad::sad:

[PAXboy]

Whilst these events are very uncomfortable, what we are seeing is the swing of the pendulum.

During apartheid, the Nats did the equal and opposite. It was inevitable that the pendulum would over swing in the opposite direction. In due course, it may stabilise in the middle but experience around the world says that will take a little time.

Jamex used words that could be applied 100% to apartheid:
Name a system in this country whether it be banking system, car registration system, drivers licences or whatever and they have come up with mind-boggling ways to circumvent or subvert said system.They did that to swing the system in their favour, now the systems are being swung in someone else's favour. It may be uncomfortable but that is the way human beings are.

Please bear in mind that I fully understand that being a pilot is not a typical aspiration for a young person of colour. In another 30 years it may be but it is not in their family or education system - yet. Likewise, I fully understand that they want to see more people of colour in the Springboks but, quite apart from that also not being in their culture, most people of Southern Africa are not of the physical body type to play the game. In due course, that will be understood but the pendulum must swing the full arc before that happens. I predict that more whites will be removed from the team and they will start losing matches. They will go through a bad period of anything up to ten years. Then they will, either, have enough people of colour to get back on top and claim victory, OR they will have come back to a balance of pigmentation.

Want one last example? In the UK: During the 1960s and 70s, the Trades Unions got everything their own way and it was mayhem. In the 1980s and 90s, the mgmt got their own way and it was mayhem. Now, in the '00s, matters are beginning to be stable in the middle.

OK, now you can scorch me off the face of your planet.

[missingblade]

A professor once said that the "top elite" must be of impeccable integrity and of the highest competence.

Thats the funniest and most pointless thing I heard in Africa this decade....

[lipstick]

Interestingly, if you read the actual article clearly, Comair are mainly being fines for what seems like administrative :mad: ups.


According to the application, Comair has been found to be in breach of the following provisions of the Employment Equity Act:

Section 20 of Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998, by failing to prepare and implement an Employment Equity Plan which would achieve reasonable progress towards employment equity in the respondent's workplace between the periods 2000 to September 2007;

Section 21 (2) (3) (4) and (5) by submitting reports to the first applicant which were not based on any existing Employment Equity Plan of the respondent and/or submitting falsified reports;

Section 21 (3) of Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998 by failing to submit a report to the Director General on the first working day of October 2007;

Section 24 of Employment Equity Act, in that Comair failed to assign one or more senior managers to take responsibility for monitoring and implementing an EE Plan from 2000 to 26 March 2007;

Section 26 of EE Act 55 of 1998 by failing to keep records in respect of its workforce, its EE Plan and other records relevant for purposes of compliance with the EE Act 55 of 1998.



When they were originally included on a list of 6 large companies that were 'named and shamed' by the minister, they were the only ones who publicly spoke out against him, essentially telling him he did not know what he was talking about. At that point, the issue of EE pilots was not raised. The minister criticised them for not having any executive managers that were EE appointments. Perhaps there was some arrogance involved there, maybe not. But it wouldn't be a first from a Novick.

EE is a reality, whether we like it or not. It is not like this issue crept up on Comair overnight. They know what is required of them and should have at least had a plan in place. As should every other airline in SA right now. Don't be surprised to see the Department of Labour put some focus on the aviation industry as a whole now.

[Rat Catcher]

:eek: I may be shot down for this but isn't this a blast from the past with the shoe on the other foot????

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Errrr....

Wasn't the whole "liberation struggle" hair pulling excercise in order to ensure this kind of thing never happened again?:confused: Doesn't help making the same mistakes all over again as the SA govt seem hell bent on doing.

[sayswho]

'shoe on the other foot', 'not lekker when it happens to you'
Typical sentiments of them and us syndrome! Just to clear something up I do not and have never worked for Comair, but would have gladly if the oppertunity had arised.
But what I see from this little debate is how quickly as per usual the SAA clan try to stick together and justify their existance. Like I said earlier your situation is different, you are goverment owned and you are the leaches of the aviation industry. You are not needed, and at any one moment there are other airlines (Comair) that are quite capable of filling the very little hole you would leave.
This however is rather about what is right and wrong! and point fingers if you wish but I feel that aviation would be a lot better off if the goverment and labour just stay out of it. They have no expertise in the area and if they become involved it would be purely to promote a system that has failed for the past 13 years or for a few to get rich quick. I left the SA working enviroment 5 years ago due to their rediculous policys (white 30 odd year old male) so don't think for one miniute I support them. If they get their own way with Comair Im affraid to say Zimbabwe will become an example of what is to come.
Good Luck - Do you have a way out?
EISH!!!!!:ugh:

[battman]

they got a "homelands" which was alot more than we got. havent you noticed the GOV beemers and mercs at ORT thats were this all ends up saw a CBS clip on you tube the other nite mugabe reassuring whites in south africa just prior to the 94 elections,:} my, how things hav changed:ugh:
revenge is sweet i guess

[Oom Kaspaas]

Sayswho. You p:mad:s. I fly the biggest shiniest in the country. I have plenty options. Apparently you couldn't even make a Comair selection

[nugpot]

Sayswho. You ps. I fly the biggest shiniest in the country. I have plenty options. Apparently you couldn't even make a Comair selection

And then the SAA drivers wonder why the rest of the country feel zero for their current little hiccup...........

[unstable load]

Well said, Nugs! Well said!:D:D:D

[Oom Kaspaas]

Nugpot I was just answering sayswho's question. So i dont understand the excitement.

From a previous post I see you fly overgrown bizjets for SAX. SAX is also owned by transnet. So maybe SAX are also a bunch of leaches.

You think we have a bad attitude towards everyone, not at all. I met a Q400 captain yesterday. a really well balance chap. He has a huge chip on both shoulders. Partly because he isn't at SAA yet but he has to fly with cadets that can't.

Most of the negative posts here about SAA are from those who aren't there yet.

[sayswho]

oom koos

Firstly I have never been for an interview with Comair I merely said if that had surfaced in my career I would have no problem working for them, they are a professional outfit (unlike your SAA). Secondly you are not the only one who flies the biggest, there ar many of us out there so dont think that secures you employment. You mention the chip on a Q400 pilots shoulder you recently met, wow thats rich comming from you, infact you remind me of one of your colleagues that insecure fluffy fan.
You are in a company that is having to justify its existance and thats pretty hard considering the financial burden they are on the tax payer. Im just relieved that no tax of mine goes to your companies existance especially if it comes to paying salaries of arrogant people such as yourself.

And finally we dont moan about SAA because we arnt there yet, we merely point out that it is you who have not reached destination you still stuck in the clouds.

Go fly your BIG PLANE BIG BOY - i suppose it needs to be big just to carry your over inflated ego!
:}

[nugpot]

Partly because he isn't at SAA yet but he has to fly with cadets that can't.

I think you'd find that if SAA phoned a Q400 captain for employment, they would hear a hysterical giggle followed by the sound of a dead receiver.

I'm sure there are guys at SAX that would go to SAA, but not many. Face it, your airline has lost its appeal to others and apparently to SAA pilots as well. Hopefully it would grind the chips on your shoulders down to boulder size as well.

[fluffyfan]

sayswho

I left the SA working enviroment 5 years ago due to their rediculous policys (white 30 odd year old male) so don't think for one miniute I support them. If they get their own way with Comair Im affraid to say Zimbabwe will become an example of what is to come.

Jee wizz......what a loss to SA, the reason you could not get a job in SA sayswho must be the racist ANC and BEE, not your horrific spelling and obvious lack of a matric.......why not run your post through word and use the spell checker next time

All my mates who applied themselves and got off there backsides to get a tertiary education, a Comm or an ATP had no problem finding jobs in SA.

Oh and by the way, like it or not (and I don’t) sayswho, the BEE policies you are talking about are Law...not rumour, so companies are compelled to comply, if Comair has flouted the law then they will get what’s coming to them and I have little sympathy because they have taken every opportunity to bad mouth SAA and sue even though they are guilty of the same practices, if they have done there best with regard to complying with the law then I am sure they will have no problem.

[Q4NVS]

if Comair has flouted the law then they will get what’s coming to them

If considering all the goings-on at Comair (from all spheres), it seems their house of cards is sliding closer to the tables edge...

Btw, what does a Q400 Captain have to do with the #$% at Comair?

[JetNut]

Well said Fluffyfan :D

[sayswho]

yes well said fluffy!!
now you must just believe the :mad: you preach (sorry couldnt spell it) must be due to my lack of the world wide recognised 'MATRIC' you brag about having -:p

Your mates - uum let me see - yep guess we know that type - FLY BIG PLANES!!! - can just see the degrees oozing from them :}

Anyway this thread wasn't about my poor spelling it was about giving Comair support for sticking to to the likes of you and your employers. Its sad that you honestly believe that they deserve to be punished for not bowing to the politicians and there ridiculous policys.

So sorry for not doing a spell check but 'I are not a SAA pilot wif matrik'

;)

Just can't be bothered to argue with your type anymore - you are a dimwit and are obviously in a position that far exceeds your abilities.
When last did you stand up for what you believed? HONESTLY!!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

...who applied themselves and got off there backsides to get a tertiary education...


Oh, the irony....:hmm:

[fluffyfan]

sayswho

Its sad that you honestly believe that they deserve to be punished for not bowing to the politicians and there ridiculous policys.


What.......you mean the law?

When last did you stand up for what you believed? HONESTLY!!!

ummmm........Now

Did you figure out how to check your spelling? it seems to have improved, just remember Copy, paste, spell check, copy and paste again....good lad stick with us we will teach you some stuff.

[777Contrail]

Fluffyfan said:

"Jee wizz......what a loss to SA. The reason you could not get a job in SA, sayswho, must be the racist ANC and BEE, not your horrific spelling and obvious lack of a matric....... Why not run your post through Word, and use the spell checker next time.

All my mates who applied themselves and got off their backsides to get a tertiary education, a Comm. or an ATP, had no problem finding jobs in SA.

Oh and by the way, like it or not (and I don’t) sayswho, the BEE policies you are talking about are Law...not rumour. So companies are compelled to comply. If Comair has flouted the law then they will get what’s coming to them. I have little sympathy because they have taken every opportunity to bad mouth SAA, and sue, even though they are guilty of the same practices. If they have done their best with regard to complying with the law, then I am sure they will have no problem."

I took the liberty to make some spelling and grammar corrections, since you're so set on having it done right. (Not that this is a spelling network, but still.....)

I can only hope that the Queen's tongue is not your first language.

You are making veiled claims about Comair doing the same things as SAA. Please indulge us.

Now, get back into your taxpayer funded-, leased aircraft, and try not to waste too much tax.

[fluffyfan]

:O I love it......

777 I am always amazed that the people who do not pay tax are the most outspoken about the taxpayer and the abuse of puplic funds. If SAA started making a profit would your distain for the company disappear? I dont think so you and most of your fellow SAA bashers have personal reasons for jumping on the anti-SAA wagon. Anyway I am sure we will find out soon enough when SAA does start making a profit, I wonder what you will bitch about then

Some Comair facts
1. Comairs Jet Operation was started by SAA.
2. Comair has always used SAA technical for their maintenance, so does that make them guilty of abusing the taxpayer? just a thought.
3. Comair had a incentive scheme in place as did SAA with regard to ticket sales, SAA only got hung because they were a state funded entity and this was deemed anti-competative.
4. Comair was one of the main players in the demise of Sunair

All of the above points have been debated at lengh on this forum so do some searching and read about it, Comair are not the angels you think they are they have been involved in some very shady practices, they are in crisis at the moment with aircrew demanding better pay and conditions of service, I think management there has done a great job, my only gripe is that they have expoited every opportunity to bad mouth SAA and squeeze money out of SAA, so if this non compliance with BEE comes to bite them, well lets just say that the wheel turns.


(not spell checked)

[777Contrail]

Fluffyfan, maybe you should have taken part in those Comair debates.

Must I be a Zimbabwe citizen to condemn RM's antics?

How much tax should I pay before I condemn its waste?

When SAA starts making a profit! :hmm:...:rolleyes:....:yuk:......I don't need to think what I'll bitch about, then. Not now. It is going to be a very long time, I will have serious Altsheimer's by then, and wouldn't remember what I wanted to bitch about!

Some Comair facts:

1. Under the National Party regime Comair was prevented BY LAW to fly jet aircraft on any of the routes that SAA operated. When those regulations were removed, Comair started their Cityjet operation with an F28(without SAA), and then moved on to B737's.
They bought the 3 old 737-basics that SAA didn't want to operate anymore and made JdeB a rich man to train the first couple of Comair training captains. That was the total sum of SAA's involvement, and Comair didn't get that for free.

2. Comair NEVER only used SAAT for maintenance on their aircraft (may soon though). 11 Years ago they had their own maintenance department. Safair used to do all the B727's, B734's and the B733's. To such an extent that Comair had too keep aircraft on the books with SAAT to avoid paying penalties in the contracts.
SAAT is a separate company from SAA. It's highly profitable and a service provider to many airlines using SA airfields. The Comair contracts are done by the "Foreign Operators" division of SAAT.

3. To give an incentive of 5% on ticket sales is quite within the law.

When you offer 7,5%, plus another 2,5% if you'll fill the SAA aircraft before selling ANY other tickets, while running at a loss, with 70% market share - that my friend, IS AGAINST THE LAW.

Because then you're killing the private guy with taxpayer money.

4. Refresh my memory please! The last time I looked Comair had a 20% share in Sunair and had to write off millions when SAA closed them down.
Sure, Comair did get a passenger spill-over from Sunair, but the Sunair brand was a thorn in the flesh for the SAA premium brand.

Many pilots and some management ended up at Comair, how many were "helped out" by SAA?

Same thing happened after SAA helped Flitestar close down.

Been there, seen that.

I do not hink that the labour case will directly be a problem for Comair.

It is the fallout that they have worry about. After the court case, the Labour department will have all the long knives out for some time after....

[Jamex]

"When SAA starts making a profit! :hmm:...:rolleyes:....:yuk:......I don't need to think what I'll bitch about, then. Not now. It is going to be a very long time, I will have serious Altsheimer's by then, and wouldn't remember what I wanted to bitch about!"

Dont knock Altzheimer's, at least you meet new people everyday!:)

[Jamex]

Just another update on this story....use it, dont use it...


Comair files response to employment equity charges
Comair has submitted a 1000-page response to the employment equity complaint by the Department of Labour. Rod Harper from Edward Nathan Sonnenbergs said the response submitted to the Labour Court included relevant employment equity reports lodged by the company during the 2000/2007 period. ‘This will give the Department of Labour an opportunity to audit its own file and to check its documents against those lodged by Comair,’ Harper said. He said this was particularly important as the department had refused to give Comair access to the contents of its employment equity file on the company.

[Beak]

We may not fly the biggest shiniest..but we make a profit which, let us not forget, pays your overrated salary. It is only your not so shiny attitude that is bigger.