Just a photo. But what a photo. [Archive]

Wiley

13th Nov 2007, 07:24

Was allowed to clamber through one waaaay back when during one of the Victor's (I think) rare visits to Ozmate. A seriously beautiful aeroplane to look at, even sitting on the ground - and mean, with that dark green upper fuselage and duck egg blue underside.

However, we were all more than a little intrigued by the bail out provisions made for the three back seaters - out through the nosewheel well... But no one said how they were supposed to jump at who knows how many hundreds of knots and remain clear of the rather substantial nose wheel strut immediately aft of the hatch (if the gear was down), or get out at low level.

Still, it had the desired effect of giving us yet another reason for wanting to pass pilot's course. The pilots had bang seats, the navs whatever they called the electronics operators down the back, a hole in the floor. Not that a single one of us thought then that it should be any other way. :)

I seem to remember them teling us that the output of the genes (that ran all the electronic wizardry on board) was as much power as was needed to power the City of Bristol.

spekesoftly

13th Nov 2007, 08:16

the bail out provisions made for the three back seaters - out through the nosewheel well...I wonder if you're thinking of the Vulcan? I thought that Victor rear crew had to escape through the crew door, situated rather close to the engine intake!

RFCC

13th Nov 2007, 08:45

There's an excellent book out written by an ex Victor Crew Chief, Roger Brooks, with plenty of photos and technical detail. Mine only arrived this morning so I can't give any more info on it - haven't had time to read it yet.

Hope this doesn't count as advertising, Mods.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

13th Nov 2007, 08:46

As S S said, it was a port side entrance door. There was a flat shroud on the leading edge to give the backseaters some dead (ish) air to get them under the mainplane.

http://www.wingweb.co.uk/img/os/V_bomber_hp_victor/handley_page_victor_noseview_arp.jpg

ArthurR

13th Nov 2007, 08:50

Yes the Victor rear crew escaped through a side door, it did have a shield fitted on the side near the engine. But the door was just at the right angle to give you a nasty dent on your head if you were not careful.
Also was that not a Valiant at Marham, on Static near what now would be the Avionics shops, sure it was when I was there (1967)

goudie

13th Nov 2007, 09:01

Still looks the business. Using it as my screen saver.
Re. crew door, were there any successful escapes using it?

tridit

13th Nov 2007, 09:09

Yes it was a Valiant and still there in mid 70's. I towed it into hangar for repaint. It had oleos fillrd with concrete.

spekesoftly

13th Nov 2007, 09:12

14 Jun 62 - 5 miles North East of RAF Cottesmore XH613 Victor K1A 15 Sqn

"Whilst approaching RAF Cottesmore at the end of the sortie, all four engines ran down because the electrical connectors became disconnected on the throttle box. On the order to abandon the aircraft, it is believed that the rear crew left the aircraft in less than half a minute and, although one man left the rubber of his flying boots along the fuselage, the entire crew survived."

(From an earlier post by mikebennett)

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

13th Nov 2007, 09:17

Shaft109. The proposed airliner was the HP 111.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/WtMiller/96950ec7.jpg

Unlike its paper rival, the AVRO Atlantic, the HP111 was conceived primarily as a transport for Transport Command.

hulahoop7

13th Nov 2007, 09:37

The front view of the Victor really does say I am the bringer of death. Nothing like looking mean.

teeteringhead

13th Nov 2007, 10:30

And I know it's been said before here, but the Cosford Museum cannot be too highly recommended. All 3 "Vs" and lots more all looking pretty mean.

As is the Frightening hanging vertically from the roof, which reminds one of the day Stoney's burners were slow coming in as he beat up handbrake house at Gut.

Well, if you will let a Flying Officer take off in the last jet to leave......:E

(RIP Stoney :()

Kitbag

13th Nov 2007, 11:56

20+ years ago (1984 Ithink) I was fortunate enough to be deployed to the USAF bombing competition 'Prairie Vortex' with Tornado GR1s of 617 Sqn and Victor tankers of 57 (Bluespears?) in Rapid City SD. Once our electric jets had arrived and parked up on a typically huge American pan the Victors trailled in. This was I think the first squadron deployment of Tornado to the US and we clearly thought we were the best thing to happen to the place. The Americans had provided us with some 'minders' to ensure we didn't break their (to us) rather restrictive rules. However they all stared in awe as 'Those goddam Brit rocket ships' taxied into their slots on the pan. The Victors certainly attracted a lot more attention than the Tonkas (Well until 617 and their support tankers won 3 trophies and the bombing comp outright;))

Saintsman

13th Nov 2007, 12:13

I can help but think that the Victor was inspired by Flash Gordon.

cliver029

13th Nov 2007, 12:23

The Victor never looked the same after they stuck that prod on the front!

Cliver

RFCC

13th Nov 2007, 12:56

Did a static display with the Victor in the States at Moffett Field. This was in the days when the stealth bomber was known about but hadn't been seen by many; most of the questions from the public were asking if this was the British version of the stealth. They were greatly surprised that the old girl was 25 years old (at the time). It didn't help that I'd forgotten to bring the aircraft display board, giving the a/c type and details. Wish I had a pound for the times I was asked "what the hell is it?" :)

cornish-stormrider

13th Nov 2007, 13:58

RFCC, yoU should have said Yessir, its the stealth tanker..... You developed the bomber, we built the tanker.

Al R

13th Nov 2007, 14:04

Over 50 years old.. magazines simply don't offer artwork as beautiful as this anymore. I was browsing earlier, and came across an ad with the same picture too. I like the way they make the pitch as well.. 'We invite enquiries for fuses, terminals, plugs and sockets and similar components.'.

Anyway, what a cover shot!! Who wouldn't want to pick that issue up off the newstand?

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc002.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc001.jpg

windriver

13th Nov 2007, 14:40

I think the black and white pictures are so much more evocative than the full colour ones of today...

Al-R Nice picture... the fifties "Flights" are always great read.

Here's another one from 1953
http://www.aviationancestry.com/Aircraft/HandleyPage/HandleyPage-HP80-1953-1.html

tridit... we've probably met I was in MEAS at the time and was also involved in moving the Valiant. I seem to recall getting a look inside as well...

My only claim to fame with the Victor is being one of the chosen few to crawl inside the fuel tanks to carry out some long forgotten inspection... sadly I don`t think I`d fit now.

Shaft109

13th Nov 2007, 15:13

G_B_Z

That's the one, thought I'd been imagining it.

I think the early, clean Victor was the most elegant of the V-force.

Why can't we build aircraft like this today?

nacluv

13th Nov 2007, 16:06

I have to say that I agree - cracking photo of a cracking aircraft. No pun intended.

The appearance of the Victor has always for me been a great contradiction. How can a design look so elegant and beautiful, and yet at the same time so sinister and brutal?

I'd like to repeat the earlier call - can anyone post a good (colour!) photo of WB771 in it's funky Farnborough colours, please?

izod tester

13th Nov 2007, 16:12

There is a colour picture of the Victor with the black fuselage and red cheat line in Vulcan 607 by Roland White. The picture is copyright TRH Pictures, so I'm not going to scan it and post it. Buy the book!

doubledolphins

13th Nov 2007, 16:50

Seem to rcall that during GW 1 a USMC Harrier pilot on arriving behind one for refueling asked "Say, who designed that, Jules Verne?"

Space age indeed.

Al R

13th Nov 2007, 16:51

They do not do shows or front covers like that anymore Mike. :D

And to refute the idea that one can sometimes get too much of a good thing, here she is again, looking even better than in the first one I posted.

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Handley-page/Aero51G3.jpg

Al R

13th Nov 2007, 16:58

Nacluv,

http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/images/victorprototype.jpg

That must have been stunning.

Lyneham Lad

13th Nov 2007, 17:13

Reference the photo in message #36, the real star of the age is in the background............and no, I do not mean the Bev! :ok:

Ok, Ok, hat, coat, door...........

MrFlibble

13th Nov 2007, 17:17

Y'know, I sometimes wonder how much it would cost to start building a few squadrons of Victors again, they'd probably be a damn sight better than FSTA...! :ok:

RB877

13th Nov 2007, 17:20

Was sent this link by my Dad (ex Victor pilot)

http://http://www.******************************/victor/history.html (http://http//www.******************************/victor/history.html)

Also some nice photo's on the Defence Image Database if you do a search.

http://http://www.defenceimagedatabase.mod.uk/fotoweb/ (http://http//www.defenceimagedatabase.mod.uk/fotoweb/)

Sadly first link tells of the tragic demise of WB771.

RB

Old Hairy

13th Nov 2007, 18:00

Re Victor escape procedures, the one at Cottesmore was 1500 on finals ,all the booster pumps cut out due to short on the fuel tray,all made it.Honington and Gaydon had bailouts as well.In my crew the AEO modded the pre-start checks to include his responsibility for withdrawing the safety pins after the pilots were seated and strapped in to include the following;

: Seat pins out and stowed.padlocks in,keys kept at the back;

Several visiting pilots went slightly crinkle chip on hearing this :confused::confused::p:p:p

Al R

13th Nov 2007, 18:05

Hi RB,

Welcome.

That first link was a little doolally. This it?

http://www.******************************/victor/history.html

edit: :eek: Gadzooks, it has done it to me as well.

Ok, insert thunder-and-lightning.co.uk/victo where there are asterix and ellipses.

RB877

13th Nov 2007, 18:23

That's it, thanks Al R

Cyclone733

13th Nov 2007, 18:43

http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/crown_copyright/boscombe_formation.jpg

Did you guys not have colour back in the day?

Al R

13th Nov 2007, 18:47

Aren't they beautiful?

Why did we have 3 different designs and 3 different aeroplanes? Were the missions that different, or was the g'ment propping up 3 companies?

Even the Valiant looks graceful in that, almost B47 like.

Diedtrying

13th Nov 2007, 18:55

Back in 1989 I was at RAF Manston doing my basic fire-fighting course, we had a Victor on the fire ground that we used to torch and practice on, even back then I thought it was sacrilege.:sad:

EyesFront

13th Nov 2007, 19:08

I always thought the Valiant was the most graceful of the three, as the proportions just looked right, but these beautiful Victor photos are making me think again!

Warmtoast

13th Nov 2007, 20:07

From my album. Biggin Hill Battle of Britain Display 1954. Low and near the crowd in those days!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BigginBoBDisplay-HPVictor1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/BigginBoBDisplay-HPVictor2.jpg

Kitbag

13th Nov 2007, 21:24

And Thawes pics show the prototype.

As for why three different types the Valiant was the lowest risk quickest entry into service option. The other two were seen by the government of the day as insurance options. This was the cold war remember with multiple dispersals and the Vs were the only credible retaliation force before SLBM and MRBM became available. Probably something to do with the UK government actually being committed to defence of the UK and its interests. Air defence was also served by different types in the early fifties. Unfortunately since that era we have consistently put all our eggs in one basket.:ugh:

John Farley

13th Nov 2007, 22:18

Nacluv

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/VictorWB771small.jpg

I took this pic with a 'box brownie' when WB771 first pitched up at Farnborough in 1953. Hazledon flew the display on the first day with only 3 engines thanks to a fuel system problem. As you may know the aircraft was lost with Taff Ecclestone and his crew on 14 July 54 when the tail fluttered off during PEC tower flyby runs at Cranfield. Some six weeks earlier Taff had been a Sqn Ldr doing gun firing trials on the early Hunter at Farnborough. These had hacked him off as the engine kept stopping and he did not think that was on for a family man so he said in my hearing that he was off to join H-P where they had four engines per aeroplane.

JF

Al R

13th Nov 2007, 22:53

Forgive the dumb question, but I was reading earlier that the fuselage was pressurised all the way to the nose, and that the avioncis and radar took up a lot of the space aft. Is that what the bulge contains?

John,

Doesn't she look a peach (although the Valiant in the 3some photo is growing on me)? She looks dramatic even now, I can't begin to hazard a guess at the reaction she got in the post war years. Imagine it. From the Lancaster to that; in terms of time, in little more than from when we invaded Afghanistan.. to now.

How tragic for Sqn Ldr Ecclestone and the crew.

Runaway Gun

13th Nov 2007, 23:02

I dunno. I think one could get some VC-10 fuselages and tails, glue on some Nimrod wings and engines, and you'd get one of these pretty jets back (or a reasonable facsimile at least)..

RFCC

14th Nov 2007, 08:19

Forgive the dumb question, but I was reading earlier that the fuselage was pressurised all the way to the nose, and that the avioncis and radar took up a lot of the space aft. Is that what the bulge contains?
Not a dumb question. The Cabin from the floor upwards was the only pressurised part of the aircraft, with a dip between the pilots seats for the bomb aimers position.
The forward part of the bulge was indeed a radome, with the aft part, from approx the crew door back, able to store the four fly-away pack boxes and a spare set of wheels and jack.
The rest of the fly away spares, such as the brake chutes, were stored in the 'back hatch' at the aft end, approximately below the fwd end of the fin.

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 08:32

Cheers RF. Thanks.

My Alfa wheel jack goes under the floor of the boot, shame they couldn't have just fitted the Victor's under someone's seat. It almost looks as if the design team came up with a sublime drawing, and the engineers deflated them by saying 'Ok smartarses, now what about the radar and spare wheels and stuff?'.

If I was ever destined to pilot an aircraft (properly), something like a Victor would have done me. A real man's plane.. with men, with lots more buttons and loads of engines. It would have had room for an ashtray, a magazine rack and a rug. Not like these little fighter things.

gareth herts

14th Nov 2007, 08:44

Apologies if I posted any of these before!
Gareth
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/americansandbrits001.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/XA941landing.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/GooseGreen1.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/wingcogreenandco.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/XA934overCottesmore.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/XA928.jpg

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 09:09

Awesome! :D

Is that third one Akr, with North Ridge and the Salt Lake in the background?

Good to see that chaps had stairs too, and not a silly ladder. Far too undignified.

hulahoop7

14th Nov 2007, 09:18

Also, nothing beats that clip of the V- planes .. Vulcan and escorts at an early show. In back and white of course. Soviet military intelligence must of shat themselves.

gareth herts

14th Nov 2007, 09:34

I think you're right re the location but would have to check with the old man - I had a feeling some of the shots were taken at Goose Bay but he has all the notes on them - I just scanned them in for him so he has a permanent copy of each.
The photo of the guys boarding shows Wing Commander Green (Dad usually worked on his jet) and his crew preparing for the trip back to Cottesmore after deployment.
Personal favourite is the line-up showing the very smart looking visitors from Alconbury next to the rather "stuffy" looking RAF crew (Dad's words not mine!)
Just to add that that last year Dad contacted the XV Squadron Association and attended their annual dinner at Cottesmore. I think he was one of the few (maybe only) former non comms to attend and met a good number of aircrew whom he knew from his time in the RAF, 58 to 62. He's stayed in touch with some of them and I am now pleased to say I am furnished with a regular supply of wonderful V-Bomber stories!

Art Field

14th Nov 2007, 10:03

Having had the privilege of flying all the V's bar the Mk1 Vulcan I reckon the Valiant was the most conventional and looked somehow stately, the Vulcan was the most maneuverable, good for displays, but uncomfortable and a bit of a big boys toy until Corporate. The Victor was striking to look at,the most effective and most challenging to fly. Once Freds Sheds had sorted out initial hydraulic problems the Victor became the longest lasting and hardest working of the V's particularly in the AAR role.

nacluv

14th Nov 2007, 10:32

Excellent photos!! And what a top thread.

Izod - I have the book (mandatory reading for anyone with aviation sympathies in my view) but the photo in question is a little small. I actually prefer the photo under that one, which is of a B2 just coming over the top of a loop. :eek:

Al_R and JF et al - many thanks. Gareth - I can't believe you actually apologised for posting those photos. ;)

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU

14th Nov 2007, 10:53

When the Victor 2s were converted to tankers at Woodford, there were still a number of Vulcan hands around. They weren't over complimentary about certain aspects of accessibility in the Victor. What did impress them, though, was the HP solution to joining the main planes to the centre section; interlocking "dagger plates". I had a picture of the test specimen on the STS rig but I'm damned if I can find it now.

S'land

14th Nov 2007, 11:29

Wow!
Whatever happened to us, we used to design and use aircraft that not only looked fantastic, but also showed exactly what they were for.

Fantastic thread, thanks.

Argonautical

14th Nov 2007, 11:58

A good book on the development of the Vulcan is "Vulcan Test pilot" by Tony Blackman. I would have loved to see his displays at Farnborough. Take off, keep it low, go vertical and finish with a roll off the top and then land.

gareth herts

14th Nov 2007, 12:38

I can also recommend Roger Brook's two recently published volumes on the Victor - the first covers development and testing and the second looks at variations, AAR and also all the accident reports - some of which are shocking, especially where procedures for the guys in the back were concerned.

Al R

14th Nov 2007, 13:23

Some V footage..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVIHn5GdWhI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVIHn5GdWhI)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqYIq_5xBbc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqYIq_5xBbc)
(interesting description of the ejection..)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T9f4u5sVVw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T9f4u5sVVw)
(nice bits of the V Force at Witt)

Jetex Jim

14th Nov 2007, 21:20

He's stayed in touch with some of them and I am now pleased to say I am furnished with a regular supply of wonderful V-Bomber stories!

Gareth, I think we need to hear these stories, please...

RFCC

14th Nov 2007, 21:32

Gareth, I think we need to hear these stories, please...

Seconded.... and more photos please :ok:

Cyclone733

14th Nov 2007, 22:59

Slightly off topic, but has anyone got a copy of any of the pictures of the Vulcan in the Grand Canyon alluded to in Vulcan 607?

gareth herts

15th Nov 2007, 09:40

Morning all
Not sure where to start with the stories to be honest - but it just seemed like an incredible time to be in the RAF and, frequently, quite hair-raising. One of my Dad's that always makes me chuckle was about his mate who parked a trolley with a bomb on it outside the NAAFI while he ran in and grabbed a cuppa. They never saw him again! One of the aircrew Dad met at the XV Squadron dinner last year went on to become a TP and flew an extraordinary number of aircraft, including a spell at Edwards. He emailed a great tale about flying a Mk1 Vulcan in to Halton from Boscombe Down in the 1960's, landing on the grass and stopping in about 700 yards!
Anyway - a few more photos!
Those visitors from Alconbury again:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/Americans.jpg
That's the old man on the far left! As you can see he was employed to actually hold the Victor's wing up with his head. Incredible!! :-)
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/ontheramp.jpg
The boss - with Sailor Malan
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/SailorMalanandJonnieJohnson.jpg
The Shah of Persia on a visit to Cottesmore:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/shahofpersia.jpg
At St Mawgan for a bombing compeition:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e185/garethstringer/stmawganondet.jpg
Gareth

FL575

15th Nov 2007, 10:58

A bit off-thread, but I thought someone might like this.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/essjaypr9/VulcansLighnings.jpg

On the back of this officially released photo, on an attached piece of paper, in ‘Roneoed’ type is:

‘RAF STRIKE COMMAND FRONT LINE

Photographed together for the first time, Vulcan Mk 2 bombers, and Lightning F Mk 6 single-seat all-weather fighters of RAF Strike Command which forms on April 30 after Bomber and Fighter Commands have amalgamated. Vulcans carry free-fall and Blue Steel nuclear weapons, and are also a most effective conventional strike aircraft, able to carry twenty-one 1,000lb bombs. Lightnings carry Firestreak or Red Top air-to-air missiles which allow attacks on enemy aircraft to be made at long range without the pilot actually seeing the target. The Vulcans are from No 50 Squadron, RAF Waddington, and the Lightnings from No 5 Squadron, RAF Binbrook.’

H Peacock

15th Nov 2007, 17:28

And I thought I was only one who thought the Victor looked so good. Still think that if it was rolled out today it wouldn't look dated with its futuristic crescent curves!

moggiee

15th Nov 2007, 23:41

Indeed, there are not many 50 year old machines that look like they were designed "tomorrow".

The Citroen DS is the same sort of age as the Victor - both straight out of Dan Dare and still looking bang up to date.

http://www.modellismo.com/kenny/Citroen%20DS%2021%20r.v.1971%20plne%20poj

Al R

16th Nov 2007, 07:29

Mogg,

MAGNIFIQUE!

If I were able to own any 5 things, one of them would be a Goddess Décapotable. The Rover P6 roofline was inspired by the DS (I think you'll find). I'm glad that Citroen is once again, after 25 years of making automotive guano, producing cars that make your eyes pop. If its effortless and luxurious mile munching you're after, and enough room to play in-car volleyball, wait until the C6 drops under 15k (won't be long).

Better still, bag a VW Phaeton - they're there already.

Be seen, and not herd.

http://www.motorbase.com/uploads/2007/07/01/fs_citro__n_1965_1967_ds_21_cabriolet__open__003.jpg

http://www.motorbase.com/uploads/2004/08/13/fs_dscn4198e-mail.jpg

http://www.askaprice.com/images/news/inhouse/1640-03.jpg

http://images.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0406_firsttest_03z+2004_volkswagen_phaeton_w12_sedan+int erior.jpg

moggiee

16th Nov 2007, 23:03

Decapotable - if I ever have a significant lottery win, I'm first in the queue!

exgroundcrew

17th Nov 2007, 15:22

Stumbled across this site and it brought back many memories. I was ground crew (electronics) on Victors back in 60s and well remember waiting for a couple of Victors to land at USAF Mildenhall, we had diverted there for a couple of weeks because a somewhat dozy pilot had landed at Honnington with his parking brakes on, burst all his tyres and trashed the just resurfaced runway!

A few USAF crew were with us while we waited on the pan and, as was their want the pilots decided to put on a bit of a display for the Yanks like wheels up approach, hurtle down the runway and stand it on its tail, a most impressive sight. The Yanks were obviously impressed with this and one turned to us and said “ now that’s an aircraft, it’s about time you Brits built something modern like that”, we all tried to convince them the Victor was one of our own, but they insisted it must be one of their new secret bombers just flown in from the States on a proving flight.

MAN777

17th Nov 2007, 15:48

In the 80s I and most of the male members of my family were employed by Bae at Woodford, I recall there being a white Victor in a sorry state on the south side of the runway. I remember having a close look one day and noted a piece of artwork on the fusalage door which appeared to celebrate this aircraft actually going supersonic at some part in its life. The aircraft was scrapped and I dont know whether the door was saved. Does anybody know about this feat and if the artwork was saved.

India Four Two

17th Nov 2007, 16:44

Here's a good opportunity to ask another question about artwork on Victors.

Shortly after GW1, at an air display in Calgary, there was a pink Victor with a cartoon by the entrance hatch with the caption "I ran offit at Offutt" or something similar. Does anyone know the background? A cross-country rally in Nebraska, perhaps? ;)

RFCC

17th Nov 2007, 19:34

Shortly after GW1, at an air display in Calgary, there was a pink Victor with a cartoon by the entrance hatch with the caption "I ran offit at Offutt" or something similar. Does anyone know the background? A cross-country rally in Nebraska, perhaps?

Cross country indeed. The Victor in question came off the runway at Offutt. Mid 80s.

Kitbag

19th Nov 2007, 11:42

I42 This may be the answer- beware it is from Wikipedia!

The Victor has the dubious honour of being one of the heaviest aircraft ever to go supersonic in a dive. The Victor was used during testing of the Blue Steel missile at the Woomera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woomera_Prohibited_Area) test range in Australia between 1957 and 1965. During one of these routine flights, the right air speed indicator failed, indicating Mach 1.03. The Victor was not designed to go supersonic so a "transonic" flight signal was sent to the auto stabilisers. They initiated a pitch-up manoeuvre in an attempt to slow the aircraft down. When the pilots checked the readouts on the two airspeed indicators, they chose to believe the faulty unit, and they too added positive pitch using the control yoke, also in an attempt to slow the bomber down. This resulted in a violent pitch up followed by a wing-over taking the Victor from plus 5G to minus 3G - well beyond the airframe design limits. The bomber then settled in to an uncontrollable, vertically supersonic flat spin, descending from 46,000ft to 16,000ft in 20 seconds. One of the flight crew had significant experience in prototype aircraft and elected to pull the braking parachute - normally used to slow the aircraft down after landing. The chute deployed but broke away within seconds. Fortunately, it induced just enough drag that some heavy stick-pulling by the crew managed to regain straight and level flight. It's worth understanding that this all happened in the space of a little under a minute, to an 80 ton aircraft carrying a fully-fueled Blue Steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Steel_missile) nuclear-capable standoff missile.
Source : Frank Longhurst, weapons officer on-board the flight described here.

I also seem to recall reading in Paul Jacksons 'V Bombers' that one of the B1 prototypes or early production aircraft went supersonic in a dive, as some scrote had that book away a few years ago I may be confusing things though.

GPMG

19th Nov 2007, 12:06

"vertically supersonic flat spin"

Shurely shum mishtake?

Fg Off Max Stout

19th Nov 2007, 12:14

I42,

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/pics/gulfwar/victors/Victor%20K2%20XH672%20'Maid%20Marion'%20-%20'I%20ran%20Offutt'.jpg

This airframe survives at the RAF Museum, Cosford.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1286444&WxsIERv=Unaqyrl%20Cntr%20Ivpgbe%20X2%20%28UC-80%29&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=HX%20-%20Nve%20Sbepr&QtODMg=Pbfsbeq%20%28RTJP%29&ERDLTkt=HX%20-%20Ratynaq&ktODMp=Ncevy%2028%2C%202007&BP=1&WNEb25u=Wvz%20Tebbz&xsIERvdWdsY=KU672&MgTUQtODMgKE=Cerfreirq%20nybat%20jvgu%20n%20Inyvnag%20naq%20 Ihypna%20va%20gur%20Pbyq%20Jne%20Rkuvovgvba.%20%27Znvq%20Zne vna%27%20qvfcynlf%20ure%20Thys%20Jne%20gnaxvat%20zvffvba%20f lzobyf.%20Nyfb%20nyybpngrq%20znvagranapr%20frevny%209242Z.&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=714&NEb25uZWxs=2007-11-02%2014%3A31%3A57&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=&static=yes&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28ert%20%3D%20%27KU672%27%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL %20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=1&prev_id=&next_id=1141267

More Victor nose art here: http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/pics/gulfwar/gwvictors.htm

Magnersdrinker

19th Nov 2007, 12:57

Was there not a film about the Victor in the 50,s 60s called the Iron Maiden, i mind as a kid I watched it and was a great film indeed, never seen it again

gareth herts

19th Nov 2007, 13:17

Hi Magners

This is the one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Maiden

I must look out for it - bound to be on BBC2 over Xmas! :)

Gareth

Magnersdrinker

19th Nov 2007, 18:06

Cheers Gareth , thats the one !! I loved that film , one day im sure they will play it again

LOl at BBC2 over crimbo , would not surprise me LOL

Union Jack

19th Nov 2007, 18:40

Decapotable - if I ever have a significant lottery win, I'm first in the queue!

If it's the Euro Lottery try to get the one Citroen are supposed to have built especially for General de Gaulle when he was President de la Republique - If it came on to rain when the roof was down, the driver would press a button and the rain would stop!

Jacques

27mm

20th Nov 2007, 07:58

Moggie, don't forget the Citroen SM Maserati - haven't got a piccy available, but it was a beauty - IIRC it had swivelling headlamps too, years ahead of today's motors.

Anyway, to get back to the thread, the Memsahib's Dad (RIP) was an AEO on Valiants and Victors. Not sure of the exact sequence, but he served at Marham, Gaydon, Cottesmore, Wittering and Wyton, retiring from 543 Sqn at Wyton in '67. He was the first aircrew officer to gain 1000 hours on the Victor, probably due to being on the trials for the Victor 1 (uncertain) and 2(definite). You may recall the crash of a 543 Sqn Victor at Wyton during a display flypast - believe the captain was a Sqn Ldr Holland, a 543 Sqn Flt Cdr - well Dad-in-Law had briefed and was kitting up for this flight in the locker room, when in rushed a colleague AEO who told him that he would take Dad-in-Law's slot, as he "...was already in enough trouble and had to go..." The rest is history, but in short, the aircraft was manoeuvred outside it's design limits and broke up, with no survivors.

Al R

20th Nov 2007, 10:03

Thats one of those 'gulp' stories isn't it?

The DS incidentally, was the first Citroen to have swivelling headlamps. And yes, the SM was a peach - "Citroen SM - For the sheer joy of driving".

Al R

26th Nov 2007, 17:02

Some more artwork, which some may find interesting. Isn't the detailing on the Valiant ad something else? I wonder where the original is now.

Sorry for the chocolate stains. :uhoh:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc062.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc064a.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc002.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc067.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc074.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc072.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i263/summer06_2006/mittetc058.jpg

Snakecharmer

26th Nov 2007, 17:26

I visited my 80-year old father last week - during his 43 years' RAF service, he flew the Victor 1 from 1960-1974 (but never flew the Vulcan so no real bias!)... I'd given him a copy of the 'Vulcan 607' book a few months ago... he enjoyed reading about all the 'make do and mend' and 'what could go wrong did go wrong' but I rather liked his final analysis: "If it'd happened 10 years earlier, the answer would have been obvious; we had lots of tanking experience, we had lots of bombing experience - just put some bomb racks back into the Victor - they wouldn't have needed to send an old mate of mine with the Vulcan crew then"! :)

gareth herts

27th Nov 2007, 09:51

That artwork is fantastic Al - thanks for posting.

Cyclone733

28th Nov 2007, 15:07

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=141&t=466937&i=240

Victor tanking near the bottom of this page. Not a bad thread for pics (if a little heavy on quoting photos:ugh:)

GPMG

28th Nov 2007, 15:39

Cyclone, thanks for that link.
What a wonderfull picture of Ray Hanna in the Spit at Goodwood. I'd give my eye teeth to have witnessed that display.

Regular Cappuccino

28th Nov 2007, 21:04

Even more startling than the Victor masquerading as a 'jet airliner' was the model of the rival 'airliner' - a Gloster Javelin with 4 engines mounted in pairs, VC10 like, but half way up the vertical stabliser! :eek:

No wonder they only showed the model!

RC

moggiee

29th Nov 2007, 09:00

Citroen SM

http://www.citrosfeer.be/wordpress/wp-content/photos/citroen_sm.jpg

http://www.autowallpaper.de/Wallpaper/Citroen/Citroen_SM/bilder/Citroen_SM%20(1).jpg

http://images.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.autowallpaper.de/Wallpaper/Citroen/Citroen_SM/bilder/Citroen_SM%2520(2).jpg&usg=AFQjCNFYL-bnpV4wzOuJuQH-js08vBrK7A

27mm

29th Nov 2007, 09:15

Moggiee,

Many thanks for the piccies of the gorgeous Citröen SM - the French can certainly design cars, even if they can't always build them!

Strictly Jungly

29th Nov 2007, 09:37

I have to say my favourite as a lad was always the Vulcan...."stealing" the show at RAF Topcliffe early 70's............

This is a fascinating thread but it has made me wonder whether in 50 years time we, and subsequently others, will hold the present in-service machines with such reverence or in some cases, and totally understandable, a reflected pride and joy?

I somehow think not.

Fishtailed

3rd Dec 2007, 12:36

This is a fascinating thread but it has made me wonder whether in 50 years time we, and subsequently others, will hold the present in-service machines with such reverence or in some cases, and totally understandable, a reflected pride and joy?

I somehow think not.

Jungly, I somehow think you're wrong.

polecat2

5th Dec 2007, 20:06

I enjoy the artwork from the old publications. Here's a chance for me to see if I can post a photo myself. Two books that I read from cover to cover as a teenager in the fifties, and yes, I still have them.
Polecat

http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg156/polecat2/th_JetAircraft800x600.jpg

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg156/polecat2/SupersonicAircraft800x600.jpg

polecat2

5th Dec 2007, 20:25

Something went wrong with "Jet Aircraft of the World"??? Must try again.
The artwork is by Roy Cross, a renowned aviation artist who would later illustrate the box lids of Airfix kits.

Polecat

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg156/polecat2/JetAircraft800x600.jpg

4mastacker

5th Dec 2007, 21:34

Interesting illustration Polecat. Would that be an HE 178 chasing a P1A?

Takes of spotters anorak and dives for cover

Al R

6th Dec 2007, 06:33

Some of Roy's original Airfix artwork may be seen here..

http://www.vectis.co.uk/auccat.php?auction_id=164&cat=Airfix+Archive&subcat1=Roy+Cross+Art+Work.

Some of the prices realised are absurdly cheap for what you got for your money.

http://www.vectis.co.uk/images/vectis/151204/2956.jpg
http://www.vectis.co.uk/images/vectis/151204/2971.jpg
http://www.vectis.co.uk/images/vectis/151204/2958.jpg

More about Roy, and his tremendous Airfix and Flight work here:

http://pws.prserv.net/gbinet.dbjames/cross.htm

http://pws.prserv.net/gbinet.dbjames/ee.jpg
http://pws.prserv.net/gbinet.dbjames/flight1.jpg
http://pws.prserv.net/gbinet.dbjames/na38.jpg

polecat2

6th Dec 2007, 08:12

Yes, it's a P-1A and a He178.

The He178 is the second jet listed in the book, which describes the aircraft in chronological order by first flight. The first one is the He-176, but as that was rocket-powered, it's claim to be the first jet to fly may be disputed by some.

Polecat

(Not really an anorak, just a stickler for detail.)

Strictly Jungly

6th Dec 2007, 08:37

Fishtailed,

Lets hope we are both around to find out!

Hope all well in Fleetwood!

polecat2

6th Dec 2007, 09:44

What great artwork.

And thanks for the links. One led me to the book "Celebration of Flight - The Aviation Art of Roy Cross". Did a quick check on Amazon and they have it in stock! Think I'll treat myself - a Christmas present from me to me.:O

Polecat.

Al R

7th Dec 2007, 07:20

His work might be about to get known to a new generation too, although I can't see him doing much Martha in the Tardis artwork.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7131047.stm

http://www.open2.net/blogs/money/index.php/money/2007/12/03/airfix_kit_model_or_toy

BBC2 tonight, 1900 - the return of Airfix.

Fareastdriver

8th Dec 2007, 06:48

As this thread seems to have wandered towards Airfix.
Airfix decided to produce a model of the SA330 Puma in the early 70s. They came to Odiham and did all the photos, drawing and measurements using CL, XW 214. I happened to be the general dogsbody who was showing them around.
A few months later they phoned me up to tell me that the first productions models were complete. They asked whether we would we come down to Airfix to have a look and if possible fly them in the actual aircraft. We would get one kit each, they would be certified and possibly be collectors items.
There was a long silence as I was wondering if I could tell them that somebody had bounced 214 in NI a few weeks previously.
The guy sensed it. “Oh No! It hasn’t crashed like the others, has it?” Apparently their Harrier had speared in whilst they were making the moulds.
“It hasn’t crashed,” I lied. “It’s gone to Weston-Super-Mare on detachment.”
Fortunately in those days if you crunched an aeroplane you could nip down to the MU at Wroughton and pull a brand new one out of the hanger. Ours IIRC was XW 235, now labeled CL.
Eventually we flew 235 down to Battesea, looked around the factory and had an excellent lunch in a pub. We then went back to Battesea whilst they did the publicity shots carefully keeping the XW 235 bit out of frame because the model was still XW 214.
Their only amendment was that the certificate said that the kit had been flown in a 33 Sqn Puma ‘CL’.