R44 or H300cbi as station all rounder ?

[flatstick]

For a large cattle station in outback australia (one million acres), would you choose a R22, Raven I R44 or a Schwiezer 300cbi ?
I have looked at all the spec's and would like an R22 because they are cheep to buy and run, but we need to carry two blokes plus gear to do the water run (400km in a ute) and be able to go shooting camels or fencing at times. So it seems its between the R44 and the 300cbi. I know the cbi has 5.5 hours endurance, can do all the above and then go muster. Its the R44's ability to muster I'm not shure about.:ugh:

[wiisp]

Hello flatstick,

Up in Lappland in Sweden and Finland we have tried it all.. I in person have been mustering reideer in R22, 300C, EC120 and AS350. But my colleges who have been using the R44, have been very happy with the machine; agile, good power reserve (you can use 2 pers, full tank+some jerrycans w extra fuel..), space to transport people and cargo and last but not least, very fast ferryspeed..
I have about 1000 hrs mustering in the 300, but think the 44 is a better machine if you are to use pistonengine.
Fly safe..

[rudestuff]

Done a lot of low level in all three types - i'd agree with wiisp - plenty maneuverable - can't stand it on its tail as fast as the other two as its got a lot more inertia so it takes longer to slow it down.
Excellent tail rotor - almost too sensitive until you get used to it. It'll sit tail into a 30-40kt wind no problems, excellent power reserve with two on board, and much faster than the others.
Until they make a schweizer with the performance a maintenance schedule of a 44; If you can afford it go for an R44

[rotorfossil]

300 cbi not great in high temperatures as it was really aimed at the training market.The engine is de rated by reducing the rpm to improve the overhaul life, so you seem to use full rated power at ground level even in temperate climes.I think the R44 a better bet for all reasons except the cost.

[thekite]

Please do not buy a 300.

They cost a great deal of money and burn a great deal of fuel at a low speed to make a loud noise doing nothing in particular.

For all the troubles Frank may encounter from time to time, he is an honest man trying to make the best helicopters in the history of rotary flight.

I was a mustering pilot in the H300 days, and was once asked by a new pilot if I could show him around the finer points of a 300 that we observed parked on the aerodrome in Longreach QLD.

"I'll do better than that" quoth I "I'll close my eyes and tell you a horror story about whatever part of the 300 I touch!"

Which I did. As chance would have it, I contacted the saddle clamps on the boom which used to crack then tear away as T/R torque increased, bingo! a brand new widow.

I write as both LAME and ATPL. And an ex mustering pilot. I am old now, thanks to my getting the hell out of the 300s I used to fly.

thekite (expecting to hear from tet)

[Hughes500]

Thekite

Whats your beef with a 300. Dam site better than an R22 and I know which one i would prefer to be in if you stuff up. I have owned 9 of them with over 3000 hrs flying them and am still here to tell the tale. Only made 3 emergency landings 2 times mag failed the other leaded plugs.
Be interedted in your horror stories or are you back in the age ot the TH55 / 269A ?

[Hughesy]

And I suppose the old robbie blade failures and inexperienced pilots getting into zero G situations doesn't make any widows then?
Have over 1500 hrs in 300's, never had an issue. Not saying thats alot of time, just saying I never had a problem with the 300.

[Semi Rigid]

R44.No contest.

[Flying Binghi]

I had decided to buy a 22... attended one of those Robinson safety courses... bought the 300cb instead.

Maintenance maybe an issue - It is far eaisier to find a knowlegble Robinson engineer.

[topendtorque]

Maintenance maybe an issue - It is far eaisier to find a knowlegble Robinson engineer.

You have hit the nail on the head.

May i say also that a CBi may have been better, amongst those of the flat earth philosophy.

Of course if loot was no object I would have a '47 for practicing the exhilaration of flying a helicopter, a '44 to speed around in and a '22 to muster in.

The pods on the side of the '44's will carry a rather big boned out killer easily and would be versatile enoiugh I suggest without having to use the '47 litters.

There is one '44 being used as a station hack not far from Darwin.
I tell you the state of that machine is such that even 'frank' should come over and belt the pilot one.

Look after them and they will look after you.

[Flying Binghi]

[Quote..."May i say also that a CBi may have been better" ]

Yes Topendtorque, a CBi is the one to buy - Unfortunatly only CB available when I bought mine new.
If buying a second hand 300CB, avoid any that have not been converted to fuel injection.

[flatstick]

thanks for your input everyone,
The R44 is my favorite and I'm glad to here it can muster up with the others, I am endorsed on R22 & R44 but am still under 200 hrs total. I am asking on behalf of the station owner who is busy with a muster. I will direct him to this forum so he can make an informed choice.
the Cbi's slow cruise (80 knts) and the 123kg left to spare with full aux fuel !
But the Cbi has the lowest running cost at US$ 90.58 ( R22 US$ 101.83 and R44 US$ 154.85)
The Schwiezer seems to have a few critics. Ive been told they are less tiresome to fly than the R22 ?
thanks

[Flying Binghi]

flatstick, R44 is an expensive way to muster.

[rudestuff]

Good point - a 300 well trimmed will fly itself, one-up in an R22 and you might get a sore arm after a while. Of course, It will all come down to $$ at the end of the day.
300 is probably more labour intensive than the robbie on a day to day basis - but you don't have to send it back to the factory after 2200 hours and the subsequent hassle of finding a replacement for a few months.
C model would be my preference (of the 300's) for the extra power/payload it offers, but at a reduced TBO

[topendtorque]

but you don't have to send it back to the factory after 2200 hours

True, but with the massive TBO times on the CBi you have to spend a LOT of money having it all insured for several years while it's swinging around your head - and - make sure that it doesn't get gravel rashed in the meantime.

I will direct him to this forum so he can make an informed choice.

boy oh boy.

[Flying Binghi]

flatstick, please note, this forum has barely scratched the surface re your question.

Maybe best to talk to your regular/or local Heli musterer, and talk to the local maintenance operation.

If the property owner is a new chum to the game, I would suggest he attend a Robinson safety course. He will get to meet people in the industry and gain an insight into safe Heli operation.

[flatstick]

the owner has a local guy with a R22 to do his mustering. He has asked arround and has been told about both aircraft. I was trying to get some opinons on the 300's, and i have so I'm happy.
on the Schwiezer website its the 300C that is recomended for mustering and the Cbi as a trainer. It is 50-60K more expensive to buy though.
It's the strength of the aussie dollar that has the showrooms empty at the moment.

[thekite]

Please do not think that the brochure figures for the 300 have anything to do with reality. Except, as tet says, in the world of the flat earth society. :rolleyes:

The reason why R22s are almost universally used for mustering is mainly twofold:Least cost for purchase and maintenance, and vastly greater reliability.

Downside? Shorter component lives and overhaul periods. That plus the fact that you can only carry one passenger.

Am I now saying something nice about the 300? Yup. You can carry twice the passenger load.

thekite

[Flying Binghi]

flatstick, from what you wrote it apears all your near 200 hours is in Robinsons. It is probably prudent to stick to Robinsons untill you get more experience.

One area that may cause you problems is with the throttle - as you are no doubt aware, the 300 throttle is all pilot operated, where the Robinson has the throtle govener.

I have limited 22/44 time, though, I think the R22 is definitely the mustering machine. The R22 will get into a tighter spot and is more nimble then the lumbering R44.

[thekite]

I would agree with Flying Binghi, although I have never flown an R44. It is a bigger machine, and laws of physics cannot be ignored! The smaller and lighter, the more agile.

Hyperbole I know; but mustering in an R44 is perhaps like entering a RangeRover in a motocross..... :}

thekite

[topendtorque]

flatstick
mandatory component costs on the '44 is around $180 pr hour compared to $90 for he '22. Fuel for the '44 is twice that of the '22 and maintenance 100 hourlies is much more on the '44. well that is for those that do regular work.
Load one up with mustering and it would be more again. I would really and strongly advise against putting the '44 into the mustering environment. The savings as above will pay for the '22 any rate.

If you are interested PM me, I don't have any commercial ulterior motives. I may be able to offer a small amount of help.


almost too sensitive until you get used to it. It'll sit tail into a 30-40kt wind no problems


I thought this comment excellent regarding '44's with relatioship to the R44, LTE thread not far from here. Maybe ATSB haven't ever flown the type???

[flatstick]

Yes Flying Binbhi you have me pegged!
I like the robinson govenor and would feel much more at home in a R22 or R44.
Go the robinsons!
It would be ideal to have one of each.

[Flying Binghi]

So, flatstick, what did the Boss decide.

I see you have removed from your post the positive references to the 300.

[flatstick]

I have'nt spoken with the boss, he is verry busy with a muster. when I do speak to him I will recommend the R44 and not necessarly a new one.
The 300's are a good bit of kit I'm sure, I have an idea the cost is a bit high and if he orders now (300C) it will be ready for March 08 (a bit late). So he can buy used or there is one new 300Cbi in QLD but it was imported at a much lower dollar and has even higher price tag. If he can find a used 300C he could have it onsite when he wants (jan 08). not many arround and the cost on used 300C may be as high or even higher than a new R44.
If he goes with a R44 there are a few to choose from and the cost is more like it.I could be checking waters and getting aquaited with the station before the next muster. If the new cost is still too high he may want to look at a used R44, he could still take advantage of the high aussie dollar when time comes to rebuild (assuming the dollar remains stable and depending on hours to rebuild). Yes an R44 is an expensive way to muster but mustering is only half of the 400 hours per year he expects to do. the other half would be idealy suited to the R44.
If it is all about the bottom line then he can only choose the R22 it is ideal for mustering. The water run (two onbord 180kg) would require fuel drums allover the place which kind of defeats the purpose if you have to drive out there and drop off fuel. However the job could get done. It could be viable to sling fuel and ferry gear or leave heavy equipment/tools at stratigic sites.Or the water run could be done solo. Same goes for fencing.
It would even be nice to have a R44 and a R22. But would the extra fuel burnt by mustering in a R44 offset the insurance costs of having an R22 in the shed all year and only bringing it out to muster twice a year?
An R44 does'nt burn much more fuel than a Schweizer 300C or Cbi is much faster and the general opinon seems to be that if you look after it it'l look after you. With a proper inspection a tap of the blades and a keen eye for detail they are as safe as the pilot.
The price and the cost to run asside the R44 still wins for me. I hope to grow old and have plenty of ripping yarns for the grandkids.
flatstick