Reported lack of SAR cover

[Vintage_SEngO]

What was that I heard on Radio 4 this morning? Something about the whole of the Yorkshire/Lincolnshire coast being without SAR cover because there wasn't one helicopter serviceable? A named Sqn Ldr came on line and I might have misheard, but he seemed to imply there were times when the whole of 202 Sqn was U/S simultaneously - and not for just a few moments either!

For the sake of all those youngsters on flying training from Cranwell etc., please will someone tell me it isn't so.

[Vintage_SEngO]

Thanks for that BBC link, AIDU. Always best to see the facts spelled out. Just another example of the endless battle to keep ageing aircraft in the air - no change there then!

Realising I now put the worst interpretation on each doom and gloom snippet I hear is just as disturbing! I'm sure we could all do with a little light relief.

[OwnNav]

I was impressed last Wednesday morning, returning from Zeebrugge on the ferry Pride of York, woken at 06:00, position just off Cleethorpes (or Donna :eek:) by loud Sea King type noise just outside my cabin window, drew back curtains and observed a perfect medevac, all done in the dark with minimum of fuss, hat off guys :D

[High_Expect]

this is not unheard of but in the defence of 202 it is very rare. I've known nights recently when we've been going flying and recieved a call saying there would be no SAR cover. Makes being a couple of hundred miles out of the North Sea in the dark slightly more uncomfortable.

[Hammer Head Too]

Having watched the whole programme on BBC1 last night I was impressed by the Grp Capt's ability to deflect questions. (politician in the making?) Is he correct that ALL major components are changed during life cycle servicings ? When questioned on electrical looms he suggested that the aircraft is stripped back to bare bones and EVERYTHING is replaced. IE They become new aircraft. Any one "in the know" willing to expand on this...... thanks.
HHT

[Spacer]

HHT: Just think of it like Trigger's Brush

[PerArdua]

HHT: Just think of it like Trigger's Brush but without enough handles or brushes to go round.
PA

[Hammer Head Too]

Spacer... so the Gp Capt was telling the truth after all... phew, thank goodness for that... the old girls should keep going forever then, following this logic... ;) pink plastic pigs turning finals:ugh:
HHT

[[email protected]]

HH2 - the stripping back to bare bones is what used to happen in HMF but now DARA are involved they don't have the time or the manpower to do anything like such a thorough job.

Lossie got one today from them that was U/s on arrival with a multitude of snags. It's not the aircraft that is the problem, it's the spares support (or lack of it) and the move towards civilianisation that cause most of the angst.

My belief is that we should immediately about turn and keep military engineers maintaining our aircraft.

[Spacer]

HHT: Anyone that knows me knows that I am certainly not in the know :)

[Artifical Horizon]

Given the huge amount of manpower used by the military SAR engineers to support a quite small number of ac I fear that the engineers are part of the problem rather than the solution. I know their are plenty of arguments about training and secondary duties etc but with 30 guys to look after 2 ac how bad can it be for the engineers. In the modern age this sort of manning simply costs too much and in a non warfighting part of the military is simply unsustainable. I am afraid Crab that plenty of civilian ac fly around safely and well looked after by civilian engineers who are inevitably far fewer in number than their military counterparts.

The military aircrew have regularly shown themselves to have high operational standards and could favourably match themselves against any comparable organisation. Is the same really true on the engineering front.

[Kengineer-130]

Artificial Horizon,
with all due respect have you got a clue what you are talking about? :ugh:.......The Engineering in the RAF is going down the pan as it is due to lack of manpower, we are lucky to see a shift with 60% manning at the best of times, considering that SAR is a warfighting part of the mil, who do you think goes and gets downed aircrew in times of war? Then add an absolutly tragic supply system, crumbling infrastructure, aging aircraft that are no doubt very maintainance intensive, and you have your answer.....
The civilian contractors that are spreading through the RAF like wildfire are good guys, but again it destroyes the RAF skill base to the point service personel are merely used to kick the tyres and light the fires, which in the long run is disasterous for long term engineering skill and quality of workmanship.
Add to that leave, dets, dutys,sickies etc etc you will find your 30 lazy engineers who loaf around the T-bar is more like 10-15 who have plenty to keep them on thier toes. :ugh:.... It is all very well having a "lean" system, but who starves first in times of crisis, the fat bloke with his extra reserves or the skinny wiaf who is parred to the bone?
Lose manpower lose capability, simple. :*The RAF ship is not so much sinking as being drilled and filled with water by those who captin her :ugh:

[ericferret]

If its any consolation the same arguments are happening in the civilian world.

Schreiner airways used to spend about 4 million guilders (£500,000???) carrying out a 12 week G check on a Dauphin including a back to bare metal respray.
End result a nearly new aircraft and very good in service reliability.

Helikopter service used to do a similar job on their S61's. The result was a 30 year old aircraft that you could eat your dinner off.

Other operators did and do take a minimalist approach to heavy maintenance.
End result crap in service reliabilty.

The engineers hate this low cost maintenance because it just dumps problems on to the line operation.

In the case of the RAF Seakings the problem is not the age of the aircraft but the spares support and the quality of heavy maintenance.

Without having seen the program, I am surprised that a senior RAF officer is blaming the age of the aircraft. Maybe he just wants some new toys to play with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hedgester]

As an ex-202 ground bod, I dont remember having 30 groundcrew on a shift! We had 6 a shift plus 2 SNCO's on days. It may of course have changed since I de-mobbed! Being offstae (None servicable) Did happen but was relativly rare! I know our local civvy counterparts ran with much less manpower, but they didn't cover 24/7 on dets, or guard, etc.....
Good job being done on all sides I say :ok:

[teeteringhead]

AH & hedgester

You're probably both right about numbers of gingerbeers but you ain't comparing apples with apples.

Remember these flights work 24/7/365, so any number of people you have you can traditionally divide by 5 - ie, if you want to fill a position 24/7 you need 5 people to allow for shifts, leave sickness etc etc.

And of course this rule of thumb assumes lots of spares, full establishments, and no OOA .............:(

[Heli-Boy1]

Kengineer-130 wrote:
"...considering that SAR is a warfighting part of the mil, who do you think goes and gets downed aircrew in times of war?"
hmmm. Not quite convinced about that :confused:. Indeed I have always struggled to see how the SAR Force maintain this justification. There appears to be very little cross pollination into the deployable rotary forces. Downed crew most likely to be picked up by ground troops or a dedicated (Yank :suspect:) package.
I do however think that there is more than sufficient justification for Mil SAR based on the good work done around the British Isles.

[snowball1]

I should put the artificial horizon guy in a room with my missus and and let him tell her that RAF engineers are not up to it! especially after a 36 hour shift and about 4 people on that shift. Would you see civvy engineers doing OP FRESCO, being called back off leave/standown etc?

[Artifical Horizon]

Kengineer.

When you refer to the SAR Force rescuing people in war I presume you are referring to the prospect of a general war across europe. A scarely credible scenario. During the conflicts of the last 20 years the RAF SAR Force has not taken part except in fringe positions. You also say that high engineering numbers are required to cover leave and sickies. Equally true of your civilian couterparts. I fully accept that dets and OOA raise the establishment requirement but not to the level which exists.

Hedgster.

When I said 30 engineers to look after 2 ac I meant per unit not per shift. That is still a very generous allowance. Bristow, CHC and Bond have all operated 24/7 units. How many engineers do they employ on each unit.

I fully support the Militay SAR Units. Over the years they have done fantastic work and still do. They can continue to operate under the military umbrella as part of a Force for Good position. They still possess capabilities not open to their civil counterparts such as Low Level on NVG. However unpalatable it may be these units nonetheless will have to compete on a value for money basis. Note I say VALUE not COST before someone jumps down my neck about using the cheapest option.

[shawtarce]

Mil SAR is totally feasible, but it would take more crews, more aircraft and more money....... how likely is any of that?

SH mates are fully capable of the Mil SAR role, with a bit of extra training and the aircraft would need a few mods to bring it up to the right spec.

SAR mates are fully capable of the Mil SAR role, with a bit of extra training and the aircraft would need a full defence suite fitting. (and maybe some different paint....)

(Having spent time on both disciplines, I think I'm qualified to comment)

Haven't SH crews got enough on their plate already, to take on the extra commitment?

SAR is maintaining 24/7/365 UK cover, but only just. (as far as manning goes)


Add the fact that:
A percentage of SH think the SAR force are a bunch of prima donnas, who have got an easy life.
A percentage of the SAR force thinks they are bitter and twisted, because they failed selection.

IS there a solution?

Mil SAR needs doing properly or not at all.

[Vie sans frontieres]

DANGER! DANGER! Don't mention the words "chopped at SARTU" around Shawbury/Benson/Odiham etc You might suddenly see a few of the guys disappearing into their newspapers! Bring back Ming!:O

[SARoperator]

The SAR force is dead in its military form. It commited suicide many years ago when it decided it was far too pretty to go to war. The civvies have been queing up ever since.

Lets not talk about saving it: there's little point.

The reality of SAR is that most operaters are virtually civvies anyway. They work civvi (its a job not a lifestyle),think civi (whine about going to the oh so dangerous falkland islands) and mostly even dress bloody civvi (bright red jackets; rank tabs and head dress optional).

The only thing left to make civvi is the paperwork. Save those who still have a sense of miltary purpose and employ them effecively in a deployable role i say. Scrap the rest.

If you dont relish the prospect of visiting a battlefield in the near future hang up your helmet and sign a differet contract.

There's plenty of skill in this line of work but virtually no sense of service.

[IAMTHEMEAT]

Ooooooooooh get her!!!!!

[Mr Point]

SARoperator:There's plenty of skill in this line of work but virtually no sense of service.

Vie sans frontieres, you shouldn't have mentioned the words "chopped at SARTU" again - I think SAROperator overheard!:}

[Kengineer-130]

Quite sad really, as SAR is one of the most visable uses of the RAF to the taxpayers, and prob one of most respected roles.... And how can they be called premos?? I appreciate they are not being shot at, unlike the SH boys, but reading some of the reports about thier missions and the conditions they undertake them in would make most pilots fairly pale :eek:..... During my time in the falklands, our Herc was operating as top cover for the SAR lot, and a few occasions the herc crew were less than happy shall we say about the condtions they were flying in :sad:... SAR has it's own very unique dangers...

But back on topic, why does everywhere seem to be at the mercy of the bean-counters? No one seems to know the VALUE of anything, yet know the COST of everything :mad::rolleyes:...Whole armed forces at the moment, not just SAR :ugh:

[shawtarce]

SARoperator, I'll quote myself

A percentage of SH think the SAR force are a bunch of prima donnas, who have got an easy life.
A percentage of the SAR force thinks they are bitter and twisted, because they failed selection.

By your "handle" I can only assume you are involved with the yellow queen, or wish you were if you'd done better.....

If you're not of the yellow variety, you know not what you talketh about

If you are............ You appear to be speaking only for a small minority

thanks for flying the flag

:mad:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

[/QUOTE]
it was far too pretty to go to war
[/QUOTE]

Yes that's right - the SAR Force had plenty of spare men and machines sat about ready to go, yet chose not to pull its weight. Nothing to do with denuding the UK of SAR cover at all, really.


its a job not a lifestyle


Disagree. If you are anything to do with SAR (which I strongly doubt) and have an opinion like that, you're no doubt an jack t**t who everyone else has to carry (fortunately we have very few such!).


whine about going to the oh so dangerous falkland islands


...isn't moaning a military pastime? And do SH guys never moan about going away? Yes, the SH guys have an unenviable lifestyle compared to SARboys, but in any outfit there will always be some who moan at any incovenience, no matter how minor.


bright red jackets; rank tabs and head dress optional


I think you'll find there's a reason why SAR rearcrew are issued with bright red jackets. The reason they wear them away from the aircraft is equally obvious: to piss off cocks like you!

[drugsdontwork]

No sense of service????

T**T. There have been many months where I have virtually no time off at all, and thats all weekends gone and 10 days and nights on call. And I am far from unusual.

Why dont you check with your SH mates? Whilst they are working hard and geting shot at many of them have a quality of life that surpasses SAR mates. Certainly I am the one who cant make time for weddings, socials etc.

Why if SAR is such a cushy number why is an experienced SH mate departing back that way after a short period because its too difficult and time consuming doing SAR?

The sense of service is the only thing propping up the neglected SAR Force at the moment, and its propping it up well.

[samuraimatt]

Are you allowed to sleep when you do the night shifts? Or do you have to remain awake sitting by the phone like coiled springs waiting for a rescue to go to?

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

The SAR force is dead in its military form. It commited suicide many years ago when it decided it was far too pretty to go to war. The civvies have been queing up ever since.

Lets not talk about saving it: there's little point.

The reality of SAR is that most operaters are virtually civvies anyway. They work civvi (its a job not a lifestyle),think civi (whine about going to the oh so dangerous falkland islands) and mostly even dress bloody civvi (bright red jackets; rank tabs and head dress optional).

The only thing left to make civvi is the paperwork. Save those who still have a sense of miltary purpose and employ them effecively in a deployable role i say. Scrap the rest.

If you dont relish the prospect of visiting a battlefield in the near future hang up your helmet and sign a differet contract.

There's plenty of skill in this line of work but virtually no sense of service.

As my handle suggests, I have been on both sides of the house, and in my 25 yrs of service, you Sir, are possibly the biggest :mad: I have had the unfortunate opportunity to come across.

I have many friends on both sides of the rotary house, all of which work extremely hard in challenging conditions, all of which have "Sense of Duty" in bucket loads.

You may wish to engage brain before tapping on keyboard in future, for I feel it is people like yourself that bring this forum into disrepute.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

Matt,

The SARboys do 24 hr shifts. Take shift 0930/1000 and hold 15 min stby until 2200, then drop to 45 min stby until 0800 when they resume 15 mins until the next crew come on.

During the 45 min stby you are able to sleep, however, you may be called at any time. It is also not uncommon to get called at 2200 for an 8 hr job (long ranger off the W Coast of Eire), finishing at 0600, therefore flying whilst being up for nearly 24 hrs.

Sense of duty? :ok:

[vecvechookattack]

Saroperator is correct. There is a winchman at Chivenor who wears slippers when he is on watch !!!! Honestly, no duff, he wears slippers.... !!!!

[samuraimatt]

Slippers? Don't they get wet when they winch him into the sea?

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

They are a lot quicker to get off than laced boots when you need to get into your goon suit quickly!

[Vie sans frontieres]

There is a winchman at Chivenor who wears slippers when he is on watch !!!! Honestly, no duff, he wears slippers.... !!!!

So what, he's on SAR. It's a rite of passage. Just a shame he has to go outside to smoke his pipe these days. Can't a guy relax before being called upon to put his b0ll0cks on the block day after day?

[Adam Nams]

During the 45 min stby you are able to sleep,

When I was on shift I could never go fully to sleep. I always seemed to have one ear open for the 'phone. However, I fully realise that it is not the same as getting mortared during the night in some hot and sandy hell hole.

Either that or the howling wind up north always rattled the roof over the bedrooms - so I just pulled my duvet (or whatever else I had to hand :ok: ) over my head and hoped that no one would be so stupid to still be on the hills............ {ring, ring} ... Oh Cr#p!!!

In my experience, both SH and SAR boys have a certain mutual respect for the DIFFERENT jobs that they do. You cannot tie SH and SAR up with the same piece of string.

Me? I am glad that I am not sitting in the UK with a paramedic qualification, sweating it about getting a possible call to go overseas.

Good luck to you all in SH and SAR - wherever you are and what ever you do - fly safe and be supportive of one another. We are all aircrew, all with a brevet and if we get a cut, we all bleed the same.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

Me? I am glad that I am not sitting in the UK with a paramedic qualification, sweating it about getting a possible call to go overseas.


I thought that idea had been dismissed over a year ago as it was seen as politically unacceptable to reduce the UK SAR cover to bolster OOA's?

[cornish-stormrider]

UK Mil sar a waste of time and resources???

Ever been out sailing and the weather goes south big time, I'm talking storm jib and heave to kind of weather. Despite being out in this, being well prepared and trained with the best kit I could afford to buy I was bloody glad they were sat there and were only a mayday call away IF REQUIRED.

What about all the skiers, snowboarders and winter hillwalkers that have been rescued by budgie.

Ever seen the footage of some of their rescues?? The ones way out at sea with big green mountains raoming around??

All this civvy rescue serves a big purpose...........

It keeps the crew sharp if they had to, oh I don't know, fly out and pick up a ditched pilot.

SAR are just as brave as the SH lads and Lasses. Its just a different kind of war

[Lingo Dan]

I really wonder if SAROperator has ever been anywhere near either a yellow helicopter or a battlefield. I'll just pick up just a couple of his points.
Those in the SAR force had no choice in whether they were deployed to a war zone or not. How well would a Sea King have done in +45c in Bazra, or at a densitiy altitude of >12,000' in Afghanistan anyway?. Maybe the "airships" got that right.
The SAR guys dress in the clothing and equipment that is given to them - which has gradually been proven, over the years, to be the most fit for purpose - nothing to do with being unmilitary!
I was lucky enough to split my service helicopter flying almost equally between yellow helicopters and green ones. Although the "battlefields" at the time were not in the same league as those happening now, I found that both yellow and green helis offered adequate numbers of "brown-trouser" moments. In both you have to demonstrate competence - and commitment to the job - or you will quickly be given other employment.
I also have noticed that those who speak most of "marching towards the sound of gunfire" are the least likely to have actually been there. The quiet ones - who don't rubbish others who do a different job - are more likely to indeed have been there and done it!!
I have total respect for the guys and gals in both the green and yellow helicopters these days; and it p.....es me off to read such rubbish from somebody who clearly does not know what he is talking about.

[samuraimatt]

How well would a Sea King have done in +45c in Bazra

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/28905CF1-553E-46C6-8896-7E119CC50E3B/0/VL060092.jpg&imgWidth=400&imgHeight=250

Why not ask these boys.

[30mRad]

What annoys me is the political spin on this story. When questioned the reply was "No call to launch has been refused because of ac unserviceability"

Well, since when cabs go u/s, the RCC is informed, and they are taken off state. So they don't get asked to launch since they know there is no cab to launch. Technically correct answer but totally misleading.

When are we going to get people who will stand up for us as a military and tell the world how it really is, not spin the story to make out everything is ok?!