Coldwar RAF U-2 Pilots

[the_tartanterror]

This may have been covered before,so apologies if it has been. I am trying to locate any ex RAF Pilots who flew the U-2 during the coldwar in the 1950's and 1960's. I have the names of those RAF Pilots checked out at Area51 on the U-2. This information was given to me by one of the original USA/CIA Test Pilots on the U-2 prior to his passing last year.

Names and dates of check out

John W.McArthur 3 Jun 1958
David E.Dowling 4 Jun 1958
Michael G.Bradley 10 Jun 1958
Christopher H.Walker 12 Jun 1958 Killed in Crash of U-2 9 Jul 1958
Robert T.Robinson 29 Sep 1958
Ivan B.Webster 9 Mar 1961
Charles Taylor 13 Mar 1961
Martin E.Bee 10 Jun 1964
Basil W.Dodd 19 Jun 1964
Richard Cloke 1967
Harry Drew 1967

If anyone knows/knew any of these men, would be interested to hear from them.
Regds
The TT

[air pig]

I would suggest that you read the three excellent books by Chris Pocock on the U2, who was given unprecedented access by the U2 community to write the books.

He even got a flight in one !!

[the_tartanterror]

Thanks, i will look for them

[Heimdall]

Tartanterror

I've done a bit of research on this topic myself, so I can give you some answers but, as 'AirPig' mentioned, Chris Pocock is the real authority on this topic.

Robbie Robinson and John McArthur are, as far as I am aware, the only RAF pilots who took part in actual overflights of Russia - the others probably took part in some interesting sorties along the border of the Warsaw Pact, but these were probably after Frank Powers had been shot down.

Robbie Robinson died a while ago. John McArthur was alive about 7 years ago as I understand he was asked to give a presentation to the RAF Historical Society at their seminar on Cold War Intelligence Gathering held at the RAF Museum on 18 Apr 00. Sadly he had to decline as he could not obtain the appropriate approval from some 'minder' at MOD, despite the fact that these activites took place place some 40 years ago and are reported in detail in various books and publications!!

I do hope both Robbie Robinson John McArthur have written detailed accounts of their time on the U-2 that eventually find their way into the public domain. However, the 'official' line seems to be that these overflights by RAF pilots never actually happened! The offical MOD file on RAF U-2 operations has still not been released into the public domain, despite Chris Pocock's best efforts.

I have known Chris Pocock for a while and met up with him earlier this year for a natter, so if you PM me with your e-mail address, I'll give him a bell and see what he has to say. He attends most of the U-2 reunions in the USA, so he probably has the answers, but I suspect most of these guys have already passed away, without leaving a written record of their time on the aircraft.

In the meantime, you might like to have a look at my article on the U-2: www.spyflight.co.uk/u2.htm

Heimdall

[John Farley]

Robbie Robinson was my tutor at ETPS for the first term. Here he is seated at our passout dinner in Dec 63.

He did not talk about his U2 flights during our time. I would not have known he had been on the U2 programme if another tutor had not mentioned it to me. Apologies for the poor quaity of the pic.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/RobbieRobinsonseated.jpg

[blimey]

TT

Buster Bayles (Bailes?) RN? See PM.

Cheers

Blimey

[Milt]

Lost U2 Pilots

Forgive the thread creep but many of us Down Under would like to know the circumstances of the loss of USAF pilot Bob Hyde and his U2 near Cuba during the crisis. We RAAFies based at Laverton much appreciated hosting Bob and some U2s when they were sniffing upper Antarctic air in the 1960s.

What happened to you Bob and did you get a postumous decoration?

[XV277]

Heimdall will probably know this, but there is an official CIA history of the U-2 operations, which includes details of the British participation. however, these remain classified and are edited out of publicly accessible versions of the book

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/u2-index.htm

[threeputt]

Flt Cdr on 11 Sqn Lightning's and Sqn Cdr on, I think, 43(F) Sqn F4's. Balex and Wa*T&r W*tt* know all about him.:ok:

3P

[the_tartanterror]

Thanks to all for your messages and input so far, its a great help.

JF Scruubed up quite well in his youth!!

Cheers
TT

[curvedsky]

........ a small but moving anecdote from the Las Vegas Reunion. As I stepped off the top of the escalator at the entrance to The Ballroom in the Gold Coast Casino hotel I met an old friend, Marty Knutson now 77 years old, who was one of the pilots with Frank Powers when they flew across Russia in the 1950’s. We chatted and he told me that he was fine and had recently had some good fortune. Another chum, John MacArthur, sometime RAF exchange U-2 pilot with him and now a Reverend in Australia was wont to call him about once a month.
Marty told him that his right eye was suffering from Macular Degeneration and that his driving licence was pulled. Leave it to me said John and promised to call him back in 3 weeks. He called and asked about the vision. Better, said Marty, but still needs more work. A month later when asked, Marty said his vision was back to normal and he had his driving licence. Marty asked John what he had done to achieve this. The reply “I asked my congregation of 300 to pray for you.”

[Bumble B]

'Bumped' into Messrs Drew and Cloke some years ago in Waddo. Both doing a little pre retirement work for a well known defence company.

Both looked fit and well ( even to the the extent that the single again Drew had been spotted in close formation with an extremely attractive younger lady) - once you have got it .....

Rumour now is that they have both retired. Drew to the Lincs highlands and Cloke to his golf shop somewhere near Marham ? !!!

[curvedsky]

This is a picture of Marty Knutson taken at the Las Vegas 2007 Roadrunners Reunion. He was one of the first U-2 pilots based in Turkey.

He flew long missions years before INS or GPS were available - using Magellan equipment - sextant, drift sight with 2 x zoom facility, grid navigation, ADF (crank the handle, use BFO, if you knew the frequency) and pencil and paper.

The autopilot had two knobs for (pitch) Mach hold, an A & a B system. Rotating the knobs tweaked the gain in flight to achieve speed holds of 1 or 2 knots accuracy - and when one 'pot' got tired the other 'pot' was used. If both pots were bad, you were in major trouble with a 4 knots stall/mach buffet margin at high altitude.

Marty went on to be the Boss of NASA Ames and flew the SR-71.


http://picasaweb.google.com/FjerdingstadL/LockheedU2PicturesRAFExchangeTour/photo#5157613450166568962

[BEagle]

It's because you have to host the image on an appropriate site - you can't just download from 't interweb.

Anyway, he.........re's Marty:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/meb___mk_at_rr_071-1.jpg

[curvedsky]

In your thread #1 you list John W.McArthur as having first flown the U-2A on 3 Jun 1958. Well John W.McArthur is an american test pilot who has never flown the U-2. This probably stems from a mistake made in a book by a Curtis Peebles " Shadow Flights "

The correct U-2 pilot is John A MacArthur AFC RAF who was born 14/2/30, commisioned 11/4/51, promoted to Sqn Ldr 1/7/64 and retired from the RAF GD Branch on 14/2/68 (data from the RAF Retired List 1979). He now lives in Australia.

See the many carefully researched books by Chris Pocock on the Lockheed U-2.

Hope that this helps!

[Icare9]

As already stated in post 11......

[Dundiggin']

My father left my mother and his three sons in 1953 when I was 6 yrs old. He emigrated to America (New York) and formed a company called 'Aerosystems Inc'. After 38 yrs (!) I discovered my father was living on Long Island (NY). I went to America and met him for the first time in all that time and he took me to his Long Island home where we had a VERY long chat about what he had been doing with his life since leaving us in the lurch. During this conversation he said one of the things he had done was to design and build the cameras on Gary Powers' U2. His name was Richard Aubrey Hayes - I wonder if anyone reading this forum can confirm any credence in this. I know he was a genious and photography was his 'bag'.


Thanks in anticipation......

[VIProds]

TT

Heimdall confirms that, both Robbie Robinson & John MacArthur were stationed at Detachment B in Incirlik, Turkey.

Quote:
21st Soviet Overflight Mission 8005, the first mission flown by the RAF. On 6th Dec 59 flown by Sqn Ldr Robbie Robinson out of Peshawar. North over Tyuratam, Kyshtym, Engels aifield near Saratov, Kapustin Yar and the bomber factory at Kuybyshev. Exited Soviet aispace over the Black Sea and recovered to Incirlik. The codename for the RAF participation in the U-2 programme was JACKSON.

22nd Soviet Overflight Mission 8009, the second mission flown by the RAF. On 5th Feb 60 flown by Flt Lt John MacArthur out of Peshawar. Headed northwest over the Aral Sea looking for missile sites, but discovered a new Soviet Bomber at Kazan, Eight Tu-22 BLINDER aircraft captured on film. Then south down the Volga over the missile factory at Dnepropetrovsk. After leaving Soviet airspace at Sevastopol, MacArthur landed at Incirlic.

Another brilliant piece of work Heimdall. Many thanks.

[Madbob]

At the risk of thread creep, I'm curious to know how the old F414 (logbook) was kept by RAF pilots involved in this and other programs.

It would blow the secrecy a bit to have U2, serial xxxx, self, duty and 8 hrs 30 mins, all recorded in green ink.......

Might raise a few eyebrows on the next posting. Imagine saying to a CFS "Trapper" you can't see my logbook or that all entries between date x and y have been "re-dacted" but I'm current on ....... and you'll have to take my word that my IR is in date!

MB

[wiggy]

As far as I recall it, heard from someone whose name is on the list posted earlier, they didn't log specific flights, there was simply an entry that they had served on some unit for the period of time involved - can anyone verify this?

[jindabyne]

Fascinating thread! Became acquainted with Taff Taylor at RAF Muharraq, when he was boss of 208 Sqn. He let slip his U2 experience to me in the bar one lunchtime (mandatory p**s - up every day) - and never mentioned it again. I think he might've now departed the patch? And I never realised JF was actually reasonably good-looking in his youth ----

[John Farley]

Correct

An entry on the lines of "This to certify that X flew H hours on T types between the following dates......".

[coley chaos]

James May from TopGear got a flight...quite interesting to see what he had to go through in 3 days of training....but his long hair length and its overall bushyness and his beer tasting pot belly and taste in fashion were never a question!!

Ive got no hair or pot belly and am roughly the same age!

does that mean i can go up?? :rolleyes:

[curvedsky]

Two seat U-2 landing with Richard May - Beale AFB 2009

http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/Richard%20May%20landing/?action=view&current=4.jpg

See .. Richard May landing :: 4 - two seat U-2R landing at Beale AFB 2009 picture by fmhshoes - Photobucket (http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/Richard%20May%20landing/?action=view&current=4.jpg)

Note the ice under the cold fuel in the wings .......

:ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

Hmmmm, are you sure you're anything to do with flying?

Lots of aircraft land with ice under the wings, especially when the fuel may still be at - 30 or so.

[ACW599]

At the risk of invoking the interest of the gentlemen in the black Omegas, did any RAF pilots fly the SR-71?

[VIProds]

ACW599

I have heard lot's of rumours, but have never come across any hard evidence either on the A-12 or SR-71.

Talking about "Gentlemen in black Omegas", in 1968 I installed the very first Police National Computer (PNC) at the Home Office (Police), so had to visit there there quite frequently while they were building up a Database. I would get the Tube to Westminster & walk down Millbank towards the Home Office. I found though, that every time I passed Thorney Street, that there would be guys staring menacinly at me. That was the back of a Government Building so thought that it was just the "Ministry of funny looks" I then found out that it was Thames House & these guys were "Spooks" giving me the evil eye!

[Visitation]

Appendix 14 to 'Lockheed SR-71 - The Secret Missions Exposed" by Paul Crickmore, published by Osprey in 1993 ISBN: 1 85532 681 7, lists all the pilots and RSOs in the order that they were checked out in the SR-71 from 1965 to 1988.

There are no RAF names on the list and I think it highly unlikely that anyone serving RAF ever joined that select list in secret - if they had, word would have got out by now.

Perhaps someone managed to bag a ride in the SR-71B, but I think that's unlikely as well, given the high demand for the trainer.

Visitation

[ACW599]

>I then found out that it was Thames House & these guys were "Spooks" giving me the evil eye!<

Far be it from me to spoil a good story, but MI5 weren't in Thames House in 1968. They moved there in 1994...

...allegedly!

[angels]

I'm sorry ACW, but we are going to have to shoot you. :E

[VIProds]

ACW599

Thanks for putting me right ACW, so I was right all along it must of been the "Ministry of Funny Looks". Quote from the MI5 Website: "The two blocks of Thames House were aquired by the Government at the end of the 80's & refurbished for use by the Secret Service"........"The Security Service returned to the old Headquarters in December 1994 which it had occupied a few decades before". But this doesn't help us with tartanterror's quest to locate ex RAF pilots that flew U-2's.

[lightningmate]

Flew the SR71 simulator a few years ago. Nothing particularly hi-tech in either cockpit - the clever stuff was in the bays of the real aircraft.

lm

[jennyh10]

My father was David E Dowling ! He was a U2 pilot in the RAF in the late 50's

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Jenny

That's really something to be proud of!:ok:

Have you got his old logbooks?

[Green Flash]

For those in the UK James Mays' U2 prog is on BBC2 in 10 mins

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for that heads up Green Flash, caught the programme this time - brilliant. Particularly impressed with the pilot (forget his name) a typical quiet, unflashy guy, obviously at the top of his trade, the only resemblance to Tom Cruise being his slight stature! Sympathised with May's claustrophia in the helmet - I think it would freak me out as well, was always glad to get my bone dome off at every opportunity.

BTW what sort of gear was worn by the Canberra guys when setting altitude records eventually over 70,000' in the 50's in pre-U2 days - something similar presumably?

[Gainesy]

Similar to the early Yank pressure suits as modelled by Yeager et al. Had something of a Victorian Bathing Costume look.:uhoh:

[VictorPilot]

An interesting thread indeed! Dick Cloke and Martin Bee were at Cranwell just ahead of me. I often wondered what Martin did in the US. I never met him in later years, but a senior ex-Marham character, supposedly qualified as a navigator, let it out a few times that he flew "no log book" flights with Martin during a US tour. That begs the question what did they fly? The high altitude Canberras? Did Martin progress to the U2 from the Canberra or vice versa? The 'Special relationship' certainly covered some interesting assignments!!

[Gainesy]

Bit confusing there Bob, which Martin? The Cranwell product or the B-57 Canberra maufacturer? Or did one fly t'other as there were no two-seat U-2s way back when?

[Heimdall]

If they flew together as pilot and navigator, then I guess that would probably narrow the aircraft down to the Martin RB-57D.

Heimdall

[TEEEJ]

The B-45s are back! ;)


Russian bombers complete Arctic patrol mission | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire (http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100120/157622289.html)

20/01/2010

Two Russian Tu-95MS Bear strategic bombers have successfully carried out a
routine patrol flight over the Arctic Ocean, the Defense Ministry said on Wednesday.

"Two turboprop Tu-95 MS bombers, which took off from Engels Airbase, have successfully
completed air patrol tasks," Lt. Col. Vladimir Drik said.

The bombers spent about 14 hours in the air and were shadowed by six NATO aircraft
- four F-16 Fighting Falcon fighters from the Norwegian Air Force and
two B-45 Tornado strategic bombers from Britain's Air Force.

All flights by Russian aircraft are performed in strict compliance with
international law on the use of airspace over neutral waters, without intruding the airspace of other states.

Russia resumed strategic bomber patrol flights over the Pacific, Atlantic, and
Arctic oceans in August 2007, following an order from then-president Vladimir Putin.

The Arctic territories, believed to hold vast untapped oil and gas reserves, have increasingly
been at the center of disputes between the United States, Russia, Canada, Norway, and
Denmark as rising temperatures lead to a reduction in sea ice.

MOSCOW, January 20 (RIA Novosti)'

TJ

[barnstormer1968]

TEEEJ.
I cannot see why you are surprised at the use of THAT kind of Tornado. After all, it's pretty much well known that RAF aircraft are mostly very old, and well past their sell by dates:E






Maybe they never left, and took over from the PR9's that were sold on!

[ICM]

Some 'interesting assignments', indeed! Whilst I was on exchange with the USAF from 1970-72, there were two officers, Pilot and Nav, and not Cloke and Bee, who appeared at various get-togethers organised by BDLS, who were unable to talk about what they were doing in the USA. Indeed, one had to say so politely when asked by the Head of BDLS at a cocktail party. They travelled from the Los Angeles (LAX), as I recall, but I got the impression that they were based somewhere well away from there.

[ACW418]

Our Flight Commander on Vampire AFTS at Linton on Ouse (No 5 Valley Course) in 1964 was Sqn Ldr Cox. I do not remember his first name. He said he had flown the U2 in Japan. He also said another RAF officer *** Austin had converted to the type at the same time. I would be intersted to know if this can be verified. S/L Cox was quite unusual in that he was promoted to Sqn Ldr and took over the unit that he been an instructor on the day before. All the other instructors arrived and said Morning Dave (or whatever his first name was) Sir!
ACW

[NutherA2]

Dave (or whatever his first name was)
He was (and still is) Brian Cox:ok:

[ACW418]

Nuther, Check your PM's.
ACW

[canjock]

I knew John MacAurthur - he was my Meteor instructor when I went through CFS (180 course, 1955). I next saw him back at CFS immediately after the Gary Powers downing. I was then on the staff as a Trapper. He hung about the place for a few days in a very agitated state and someone mentioned to me that he had been flying the U-2. Many moons later, in the 80s he appeared at DH Canada when I was on the sales staff at Downsview. He was then with DH Australia and was over to learn about the Dash 8 we were about to produce. We chatted on several occasion but I loast trrack of him when he returned to Oz. Was surprised to read that he had taken 'Orders' and was a minister in Australia.
I was also very friendly with another member of an overfly crew, this time in the B-45 Tornados that the RAF used on several occasions in the early 1950s. Bill Lindsay was a flight engineer on No 149 Sqn (B-29 - Coningsby) when I was one on No 44 Sqn. He would disappear for extended periods and refused to say where he had been. It was not until much later that I read about the overflights that he had taken part in. Unfortunately, he was later killed in a B-29 accident in the UK.

[harleyman]

Historic moment: In 5 days time it will be 50 years exactly since John MacArthur (RAF) flew a U-2C across the Soviet Union.

This extract from http://www.spyflight.co.uk/u2.htm (http://www.mail2web.com/cgi-bin/redir.asp?lid=0&newsite=http://www.spyflight.co.uk/u2.htm) reads

22nd Soviet Overflight Mission 8009, the second mission flown by the RAF. On 5th Feb 60 flown by Flt Lt John MacArthur out of Peshawar. Headed northwest over the Aral Sea looking for missile sites, but discovered a new Soviet Bomber at Kazan. Eight Tu-22 BLINDER aircraft captured on film. Then south down the Volga over the missile factory at Dnepropetrovsk. After leaving Soviet airspace at Sevastopol, MacArthur landed at Incirlik.

The MacArthur flight lasted almost 9 hours and he landed with 18 gallons of fuel remaining!

:)

[Kubarque]

Martin Bee flew the U-2 with the project JACKSON detachment at Edwards AFB during the 1960s. The Jacksons were part of the CIA squadron at Edwards North Base. I believe that two pilots, a navigator (for flight planning) and a Flight Surgeon made up this RAF contingent. I believe Martin did a lot of T-33 flying while waiting for the Brit U-2 mission that never happened. (Not in the 1960s anyway). It might have been in the T-33 that this nav from Cranwell teamed up with Martin. BTW, I've seen Martin on Pprune. Forget his NIC though.Kubarque

[sevenofnineship]

K,

Please see post #49 immediately above which took place in .. in.. in .. er ...1960!

Also, have a look at

YouTube - U-2 carrier take offs and landings (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8HMPMYL19E)

The ETPS graduate test pilot who sorted out the early U-2G carrier landing difficulties in the mid 1960s was Sqn Ldr 'Chunky Webster'. He demonstrated the 'cut 1' (throttle to idle over the ramp) technique followed seconds later by a well timed LSO call of 'cut 2' (pickle the newly installed spoilers and stall the U-2G on to the deck) .

Webster was earlier the lead RAF test pilot on the 'Flying Bedstead' (precursor to the Harrier family). The very same 'Bedstead' can be seen today in the Science Museum in London next to the Shorts SC1 which Webster also flew.

7/9

[stevew62]

Threeputt wrote:
Harry Drew - Flt Cdr on 11 Sqn Lightning's and Sqn Cdr on, I think, 43(F) Sqn F4's. Balex and Wa*T&r W*tt* know all about him.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Does anyone have contact info for Harry ? He did the 229 OCU course in 1961 with my father & I have recently found a couple of pictures of him.

If anyone knows how I can contact Harry, I'd appreciate a PM. Thanks !

[A2QFI]

I don't know what Canberra crews might have worn at High altitude in the 50s.
When I flew the PR9 we went to RAF Upwood to be fitted with our kit which consisted of a sort of pressure suit comprising a G suit and a pressure jerkin, for the body and legs, and a Taylor partial pressure helmet. This had a small 'Hatch' in the front thru which one could eat very small sandwiches and snax but this was difficult as the hatch was more aligned with the end of one's chin than one's mouth! There was also a hot weather option of an air ventilated suit to worn underneath all the kit and also an air vent skull cap to wear next to the skin and under the helmet.

[JamesA]

I remember when sailing around Limassol area in the eighties seeing A u-2 approaching Akrotiri. Would this have been an RAF flight or did the USAF have aircraft based there? I also remember stories of a U-2 crashing at the same base. Is that true?

[hoodie]

USAF, and see here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/273416-u2-akrotiri.html)

[JamesA]

Obviously the mixture of sun, sea and brandy sours. It was all an illusion. I had to wait till the IAT and see that a U-2 and SR-71 looked like weather baloons.
Some interesting reading in your reference.

[A.D.]

Just some information that might be of interest,David Dowling did overfly USSR.From what he said all 4 RAF Pilots did at that time.As to Log books,he wrote to MoD before he died in 2008 to try and get something from them,unfortunately he didnt get any reply.His "normal" Logs exist with gaps when he was involved with the U2 and some other "weather reporting",(51 Squadron I think),in the early '60's.

[VIProds]

I have been corresponding with Major Buddy Brown USAF, who used to fly the SR-71 as a pilot. I mentioned ICM's post when he was on exchange, in the States & met up with another Pilot & Navigator that were also on exchange, but couldn't reveal where they were based or what they were doing.

Buddy went through all his lists of Pilots, RSO's, Staff & VIP's that flew in the SR-71, the A-12 & YF-12 & said that there was no mention of any RAF personnel having any involvement in those aircraft - What a shame !

I also mentioned to Buddy about the eleven RAF Pilots that converted to & flew missions in the U-2 for the CIA. Buddy responded by saying "I think you mean THIRTEEN RAF Pilots". Buddy then sent me an attachment showing the names of all 741 Pilots that flew the U-2 from 1951 to 2001 !!

The two extra names that I didn't have were Ian McBride who converted to type in 1971 & Ronald Simmons who converted in 1972.

I know that the late Robbie Robinson wrote an article about his U-2 exploits. It would be nice to know that some of the remaining aircrew from "Operation Ju Jitsu", "Operation Robin" & the U-2 flights might be tempted to put pen to paper about their exploits. I for one would be delighted to read them.

[John Farley]

Do you know if Robbie's article is available? He was one of my tutors at ETPS in 1963 (he is seated in the pic below) and I would live to know what he had to say.

J F

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/RobbieRobinsonseated.jpg

[Visitation]

John,

I have a copy of Robbie's article, if you want I'll scan it and forward it to you. PM me with your e-mail address.

Visitation

[John Farley]

Bless you Sir

PM on its way

JF

[VIProds]

Robbie Robinson's article on the U-2 was published in the September 1995 edition of "Aeroplane Monthly". I recieved my copy by good old "ebay".

[Visitation]

AD wrote:


Just some information that might be of interest,David Dowling did overfly USSR.From what he said all 4 RAF Pilots did at that time.As to Log books,he wrote to MoD before he died in 2008 to try and get something from them,unfortunately he didnt get any reply.His "normal" Logs exist with gaps when he was involved with the U2 and some other "weather reporting",(51 Squadron I think),in the early '60's.


Without wishing to be pedantic, what concrete evidence is there that any RAF pilots, other than Robbie Robinson and John MacArthur, overflew USSR territory? Chris Pocock's definitive book on the subject '50 Years of the U-2' lists every overflight and David Dowling's name doesn't appear.

Visitation

[rhajaramjet]

The name was Ron Shimmons, not Simmons.

[VIProds]

You are right rhajaramjet, it is "Shimmons" & not simmons that I said. It's that Scottish 007 accent that I have:\

visitation, I am also only aware of Robinson & McArthur being the only RAF pilots that overflew the Soviet Union in a U-2. The four pilots were sent from Laughlin AFB to Detachment B at Inserlik, Turkey & were mainly used to ferry the U-2's to Peshewar in Pakistan where the Soviets had no Radar coverage. On December 6th, 1959 Robinson took off from Peshewar to overfly the Soviet Union & on February 5th 1960 McArthur also took off from Peshewar & filmed eight new TU-22 bombers at Kazam, which were given the NATO designation of "Blinder".

[Geehovah]

You never know. "Uncle Ron" may even reply!

[gusgale]

You ask about Martin Bee and Dick Cloke. After the Powers incident I was assigned to Edwards with Chunky Webster and Charles Taffy Taylor 1961 - 64 as a nav mission planner. I met Martin Bee and Basil Dodd when they arrived to take over from Chunky and Taffy. It was a very interesting tour as you can imagine.
If you Google Martin Bee you will find his life story on his old school website.
Also Google 'Looking back on the Dragon Lady' by a Brigadier and you will find a chapter written by Martin and one by Dick Cloke. I also met Dick Cloke before he went to Edwards and gave him some nav instruction as applied to the U2.
As far as I am aware Martin Bee and Harry Drew are the only surviving RAF U2 pilots at this moment.

[Wander00]

Was Martin Bee a Canberra instructor and Dick Cloke on Gnats?

[PEI_3721]

IIRC, Dick Cloke was on Gnats, both he and Martin Bee were on Lightnings, as were Ian McBride and Ron Shimmons.
Ian McBride last heard of at Tarrant Rushton, and Ron Shimmons with AAIB. Any update on either?.

[Scottishwiwol]

Martin Bee last heard of living in Durban

[Norma Stitz]

Hi - Basil Dodd was working as an ops officer for the Civil Aviation Authority through the late 80s (at least); he casually mentioned having flown a U-2 one lunchtime which - back then - was the first I'd heard of it.

Maybe CAA's Human Remains department can possibly confirm if he's still with us and pass a message on?

[A2QFI]

I have just spoken to Dick Cloke, he is alive and well and living near Kings Lynn.

[NutherA2]

As far as I am aware Martin Bee and Harry Drew are the only surviving RAF U2 pilots at this moment.At least one more from the early days (1958/59)..Brian Cox

[gusgale]

Glad to hear that Dick is alive and well. I will admit that it was hearsay he had died.

[gusgale]

Thanks for that info.

[BOAC]

Glad to hear that Dick is alive and well. I will admit that it was hearsay he had died. - bet he's pleased too:). Good to hear all fare well. My more 'beneficial' students on the Lightning OCU (IE I learnt more from them than they did from me - stands by for chorus.......)

[VIProds]

I contacted Dick last year to see if he would give a talk to our local ACA Branch. Either Whitehall were not happy, or our sumptuous menu was not up to scratch, as he had to decline.

[rubberband2]

Norma Stitz (......) a lovely handle methinks .....

Ref your post #71 on the Coldwar RAF U-2 Pilots forum:


I spoke to the tp custodian of ETPS records at Boscombe Down last night.

He confirms that Basil W Dodd graduated on ETPS course 57 & flew many aircraft including the Lightning on 'A' Sqn in 1959 & 1960.

He also confirms that Basil died on 13 Feb 2000 at 70ish +.

RB

[John Blakeley]

PEI 3721

Please see your PMs

JB

[tonbev]

The U-2 pilot lost in the Gulf of Mexico near Cuba was Joe Hyde. TB

[Navy_Adversary]

Thanks for the links gusgale, it was really interesting reading about Martin Bee. following the Dragon lady link I also found an obituary about a retired USAF Major, Ed Mcgovern.
http://www.northshoreoflongisland.com/Obituary-10465.112114-Edward-Joseph-McGovern.html

[tonbev]

And American football in the club! I remember Frank Russell and Ken Murray, also.

[alecoc]

I have just joined and seen your post. Basil Dodd was a great friend of mine. We trained together at at Heany in S. Rhodesia in 1951 and kept in touch thereafter although our R.A.F. paths didn't cross. Happily we both worked together in the Civil Aviation Authority later on. Sadly he died a few years ago after an operation for cancer of the oesophagus, and his wife Elizabeth followed a couple of years later after a stroke. He was a very modest character and rarely spoke about his U2 days even after the security ban was lifted.

Alec

[Basil]

Anyone know if the U2 suffered from Dutch roll?

[blaireau]

Judging by this link, it was rather sporting close to the ground...

The Lucky Puppy :: View topic - U2's Are Hard to Land (http://luckypuppy.bravehost.com/FORUM/viewtopic.php?t=1452)

[Basil]

What a little barsteward! I'd have recommended fitting a bow thruster ;)
Amusing last sequence.

[pzu]

Free Download - Currently (30 April 2012) available on the UK version of that SA river

Remembering the Dragon Lady: The U-2 Spy Plane: Memoirs of the Men Who Made the Legend

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Lyneham Lad]

Thanks for the link - book now safely stored on my Kindle awaiting a suitable reading opportunity.

[Surplus]

Doh, if they'd have taxi'd a little bit faster, Google Earth would have missed it.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af197/Philaitch/unlucky.jpg

[Tandoor1]

I did have sight of Harry Drew's logbook once and he had many sorties in the US during his exchange tour; all logged as T33!

[JW411]

I've only just found this thread. I used to fly with Martin Bee when he joined Laker Airways. I once asked him if he had flown the SR-71. The answer was in the negative but he did say he had flown the YF-12A.

[tacnav]

Hi, there were U2s based at Akrotiri when I was there in the early 70s and one did crash on the airfield and took out station ops as I recall, but it was before I arrived in 71.

[riggersnr]

I served as the Flt Cdr on 84 Sqn (local SAR helo unit) at RAF Akrotiri in the late 70's.

In that period the U2s made daily flights from Akrotiri - and I would guess still are - taking off at 6am and landing at 3pm, usually on time. I regularly walked to 84 in the cool of the early morning and never grew tired of watching a rather unstable, vehicle and outrigger assisted take off develop into an impressive climb, even fully laden with JP5 fuel. Viewing the later approach from the beach had additional and distracting attractions.....

The operating unit - Olive Harvest Det 7 - were very cooperative when I asked for our winchmen to have a hands-on experience of the U2 cockpit and aircrew safety equipment, a learning process that we all gained from, though I'm not sure that all the security restrictions were observed fully. I found the staff and pilots to be friendly and sociable (but very focussed, professionally) and I enjoyed the company, especially the bbqs that produced the largest steaks I had ever seen!

Incidentally, as a result of the fatal U2 crash Flt Lt Bernie Limm, a most engaging Herc Nav serving in Akrotiri Ops, saved the lives of several persons who had been trapped in a burning building, and was awarded subsequently the Queen's Gallantry Medal.

[beachessun]

I am searching for information on Sqd.Ldr. John McArthur. I am Australian and at the age of 21 I met him in London while on a working holiday. We became engaged for a short time.
As I am Australian John came to Sydney but his health was not good and I did not wish to live away from Australia so we parted.

At the age of 73 I often look back and think what a brave man he was to have been part of that amazing time and realise that so little information was really understood as to what was involved for those pilots.

I would like to know if he is still alive and hopefully has had a happy life.

beachessun:)

[TEEEJ]

Beachessun,

See posts from 2007 and 2009. Apparently a Reverend in Australia.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/298943-coldwar-raf-u-2-pilots.html#post3688865

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/298943-coldwar-raf-u-2-pilots.html#post5040974


John and Julie MacArthur have a mention in the Roadrunners 2008 newsletter.

http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/newsletters/october_2008_newsletter.pdf

Contact page.

Contact Information for Roadrunners Internationale (http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/contact.html)

Home Page - Roadrunners Internationale Declassified U-2 A-12 Projects Aquatone OXCART Area 51 (http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/)

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

beachessun,

Good for you!

All the best.

Duncs:ok:

[beachessun]

Thank you for information on John MacArthur pleased that he is living in Australia and suprised he is a reverend perhaps flying so high opens up a door to the meaning of life.

beachessun

[KenWW]

Hello Alec,
I note with great interest that Basil W. Dodd was a friend of yours. I think he might well be the same Basil Dodd who was a fellow student with me at The de Havilland Aeronautical Technical School, Hatfield, Herts., in 1945-49. I know from the Empire Test Pilots School that the Basil Dodd I knew attended their Course No.15 in 1956, and he died in 2001.
Can you tell me more about what he told you, in case it confirms he is the same Basil Dodd I knew? I have no record of his middle initial being 'W', nor of his being in the RAF.
I remember him well, as he gave me my unforgettable looping, spinning first flight around 1948, in a Tiger Moth from Panshanger aerodrome, Hertfordshire. He is remembered by ex-de Havilland people for his Panshanger aerobatics. He was particularly fond of inverted flying and, on one occasion, he did so for a longish time and, on landing, he learned that the dirty windscreen was due to practically all the oil having drained from the engine - that Tiger had not been adapted for prolonged inverted flights!
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Ken Watkins, CEng, MRAeS,
(DHAeTS 1945-49)

[curvedsky]

For Alec & KenWW ...

Basil Dodd was indeed a graduate of ETPS.

He started an RAF exchange tour in 1964 flying the CIA operated Lockheed U-2 (80' wing span J-75 powered C, F, G (carrier), & H models).

On his return to the UK he went back to RAF test flying and thence to the UK CAA.

A quiet gentleman.

The two pictures show him (1) in the Mojave Desert near Edwards AFB & (2) undergoing a test at Los Alamos, NM. This test was a small part of the week long medical then given each year to all U-2 pilots

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/Lockheed%20U-2%20chart%20buffet%20boundary%201960/bwd4114a_zps1cb0971e.jpg



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/Lockheed%20U-2%20chart%20buffet%20boundary%201960/bwd4117a_zpsd2f52009.jpg (http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/Lockheed%20U-2%20chart%20buffet%20boundary%201960/bwd4117a_zpsd2f52009.jpg)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/U-2narrowtrackwheels_zpsc238750a.png

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/buffetboundaries_zps4289d9ed.jpg?t=1409563196

[curvedsky]

Here are some pix of the U-2 from the Basil Dodd era. There were no modern navaids then such as doppler, INS, star-trackers, or ring-lasers.

Navigation depended on meticulous pre-flight planning by a specialist navigator plus an on time U-2 launch.
The pilot used his eyes, pencil, paper, stop-watch, ADF and drift sight.
Pre-calculated manual sun and star shots were also employed. Each shot took a couple of minutes twiddling a knob to keep the celestial body centred & produced a single position line.
The downward looking drift sight - the circular prism in the top centre of the instrument display - could also be made to look upwards to the sky. (All done by mirrors!)




http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/U-2cockpit-1.jpg




http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/fmhshoes/U-2Gcarrierldg.jpg

[SASless]

An updated cockpit now it appears....


http://www.csh.rit.edu/~chrisc/stuff/u2_cockpit.jpg

[LowObservable]

You can't jam Canopus.

[BOAC]

Where is the toilet-roll bolder?

[Rosevidney1]

Was it a timid one previously? :eek:

[chopper2004]

While on this thread, did any graduate of ETPS back then have a dabble in NASA Ames Research Centre U-2C (which IIRC delivered first in 1971) ? ?

or even later on when NASA received the ER-2.

Officially, the only Brit backseater in a TR-1B trainer has been our Top Gear James May :) At the Edge of Space :) :)

Just a shame Alconbury airfield side was given back to MoD 2 decades back, if Dragon Lady ops still continued, young James could have been saved the air ticked and gone up the road in the TR-1B :) based there.

Photo Search Results | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?cx=partner-pub-8297169501225184%3Aa05n2n-tzky&q=u-2+alconbury&sa=Submit&search_field=datedesc&siteurl=www.airliners.net%2F&ss=13903j51474269j15&sort_order=photo_id+desc&page=2&page_limit=15&sid=f638e981c8de75a4602868060951bb57)

Plus the last airshow I went to at Alconbury was 1991 summer, probably after the visit of the NASA ARC ER-2 as depicted in the bottom photo.

Cheers

[ricardian]

The Secret History of the U-2. Groom Lake/Area 51 Finally Declassified (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB434/)
Pages 153-155 of this document (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB434/docs/U2%20-%20Chapter%203.pdf) are of particular interest to RAF folk

[Basil]

I haven't read the whole thread and just in from pub so, bit of slack?
A year or so ago I read 'Remembering the Dragon Lady' and was astonished by the accounts of the difficulty of handling what looked, to an average Joe ex mil pilot, like a straight wing jet. As they say on the street - 'Respec!'
Now here's the Q - did the U2 display any tendency to Dutch Roll at high altitude? I've never had the opportunity to meet a U2 pilot so, if you have and have discussed that handling problem, please comment.

Just noted Alconbury mentioned. I spent a short ground tour in ATC at Wyton and the two things I remember were the brandy Alexanders at Alconbury and the hair raising speed at which the F4 flew an approach with a blown flap failure. ISTR a bit faster than a Lightning on a normal approach. ;)

Edited to say: lest anyone think I'm purporting to be FJ - no - truckie through and through.

[500N]

Basil

This updated prompted me to watch the James May U2 flight
as I thought it had a reference to your question but only a brief
mention of speed change of 10 knots could cause disaster at
cruise height.

Not a great fan of James May but I don't know of any other
close up footage of the process to fly in a U2 and in cockpit
video.

I thought it was impressive.

[500N]

A question if someone could answer it.

In this video at about 1.55, what is occurring with the air.
Is this air conditioning ?

Ride in a U2 spy plane flight Beale AFB 1080 HD U-2 landing and takeoff - YouTube

[alfred_the_great]

It's present in most US aircraft I've flown in (various type of seahawks); it is their form of AC, frankly not very efficient if you're not directly under the cool air flow.

[Just This Once...]

Not sure you can compare the Pressurisation/ECS from a high altitude partial-pressure cockpit with the vents fitted to a helicopter! Most FJ I have flown can create snow in the cockpit.

[alfred_the_great]

Looks exactly the same though, and seems to be doing the same job.

[Bob Denny]

Doing some research this morning trying to locate info on Chunky Webster and I found both this thread as well as this document the NASA Airborne Science Program Report of 2007 (https://airbornescience.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/documents/ASP07Rpt_v10.pdf). I worked with Sqn Ldr Webster (ret.) while he was at Moffett flying for the NASA Earth Resources Aircraft Program. I was on a team that developed a multi-TACAN geodetic nav system for that program. The photo montage on page 112 of the above document shows all three pilots we worked with. The one of Chunky is a classic, showing his typical manner after smoking at least one cigarette. Note the old-school movie cameras. I don't know what that particular occasion was.

[bigglesbrother]

Go to page 102 for the picture of 'Chunky' Webster.

Webster was an RAF graduate of the Empire Test Pilots School in the UK. He flew many types of aircraft including the Flying Bedstead.

He was so successful on a 2 year exchange program with the CIA U-2 aircraft based at Edwards North Base in the 1960s that he was asked to stay on.
He joined the elite CIA group and latterly the NASA U-2 program: he became an American citizen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8W2SI4c93shttp://

[Kubarque]

For those interested in British Participation in the U-2 program (and the history of the CIA U-2 program in general), here's an 1187 page insight which was recently declassified.

http://www.governmentattic.org/19docs/CIAhistOSAincep-1969.pdf

It took 18 years and a determined freedom of information practitioner to get this first half of the 16 volume history of the CIA's Office of Special Activities released.

Brit participation is on pages 905 - 989 of the pdf document. 29 "Headquarters directed missions" were accomplished by RAF pilots of project OLDSTER.

2 USSR Overflights
5 peripheral Elint
17 Middle East photo
5 weather flights (for "cover" purposes)

After the 1960 Powers shootdown the project name was changed to JACKSON.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Kubarque

Thank you for sharing, and congratulations to the FOIA practitioner.

Makes for some very interesting reading.

[ricardian]

Telegraph today - paywall unfortunately (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2017/05/25/wing-commander-rex-sanders-obituary/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb)
Wing Commander Rex Sanders, navigator on operation Ju-Jitsu – obituary

More (https://paullashmar.com/2017/05/19/tribute-to-the-late-wing-commander-rex-sanders-raf-rtd/)

And finally (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/scul.htm)

[air pig]

Chopper 2004:

James May is not the only Brit civilian to have flown in the U2B, Chris Pocock the aviation author and U2 historian has also flown in one. He has written the definitive book on the Dragon Lady.

[Dan Winterland]

The thing was notoriously difficult to land - for conventionally trained pilots. Our USAF exchange on VC10s was going to Beale for the assessment, part of which was landing the two-seater. I suggested he got down to Bicester and did some gliding as like the US, most gliders are long winged tail-draggers which land close to the stall. They were a bit perplexed at this spam who wanted to fly circuits on a glorious soaring day, but he got the hang of landing gliders. After that, the landing in the U2 was easy and he reckons it's what got him selected.

[Heathrow Harry]

http://www.governmentattic.org/19doc...incep-1969.pdf (http://www.governmentattic.org/19docs/CIAhistOSAincep-1969.pdf) is giving a 404 not found message

[Haraka]

but he got the hang of landing gliders. After that, the landing in the U2 was easy and he reckons it's what got him selected.

I suggested precisely this to a senior TR-1 pilot at Alconbury (A/B ratios etc).
A suggestion emphatically rejected since "there was no comparison".
I didn't pursue the issue for obvious reasons, however I find your friend's experience intriguing in retrospect.

[Lono]

http://www.governmentattic.org/19doc...incep-1969.pdf (http://www.governmentattic.org/19docs/CIAhistOSAincep-1969.pdf) is giving a 404 not found message

Try https://ia800403.us.archive.org/6/items/HistoryOfTheOfficeOfSpecialActivitiesFromInceptionTo1969/CIAhistOSAincep-1969Final.pdf