Whoops - the cat is out of the bag

[Report Line]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KVDZJGUN5GOGLQFIQMGCFFOAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/11/03/nbingedrink103.xml

Reports suggest that there is a drinking culture within HM Forces. At least the RAF doesn't drink as much as the Army or Navy - cos we are more mature and better educated - Ha!

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Sure, there's historically a bit of a bar culture in the forces but does anyone really think there is a serious problem? On our excursions to the local sticky carpet disco in town, it seems that all the local oiks drink at least as much but can't handle their drinks nearly as well. They consequently end up puking, fighting, p1ssing in the street, getting naked, stealing traffic cones and getting arrested - behaviour which is far less prevelant amongst servicemen who by definition generally have more self-control and discipline.

Cheers. Pint of atomic turboshandy please.

[artyhug]

So the military has X times as many people with 'drink problems' as the general population says Prof Smethering Sminton Smyth.....

Hmmm, remind me again of the differences between the average demographic of the military and that of the populous as a whole.

There are lies, lies and statistics.....

[cm74]

At least the RAF doesn't drink as much as the Army or Navy - cos we are more mature and better educated - Ha!

Doubt the maturity claim. More to do with the fact that they spend less time talking crap about their exploits in the DOB.

Nice to see the RAF still has modesty as one of its qualities.

:hmm:

[green granite]

One of the definitions I've seen of binge drinking equates to a minimum of approximately two thirds of a bottle of wine for women or four pints of beer for men. That sounds like a normal mess night to me :E

[Always a Sapper]

One of the definitions I've seen of binge drinking equates to a minimum of approximately two thirds of a bottle of wine for women or four pints of beer for men. That sounds like a normal mess night to me :E


Lightweight ...... :E:E:E or was that by the hour? :rolleyes:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well to be honest its about time the drinking culture of the military was put under the spotlight.

The armed forces has a strict anti-drug policy which I fully support yet on many occasions I have walked into hangers where techies who are still half-cut on alcohol are attempting to work on aircraft. Is this any safer than the apparent threat of folk who take a few pills at the weekend working on aircraft? Of course its not.

Whilst alcohol may be legal its still deeply unprofessional to work under the influence of it and in my opinion it should be as frowned upon as much as drug use. To enforce a zero tolerance policy of turning up for work under the influence perhaps its time that random breathalysing was introduced to the armed forces.

Whilst I understand all too well how the stresses of the job can cause drinking problems this is an aside to the 'bravado drinking' that many practice and something that seems almost officially sanctioned.

[2Planks]

On my first annual med the quack said that unless you were drinking 4 pints a night every night you didn't have a problem at all

[LFFC]

As alcohol is so “detrimental to their health, the safety of themselves, their colleagues and wider operational effectiveness”, and because “levels of drinking were highest in the Army and Navy”, perhaps the Army and Navy should consider enforcing a ban all alcohol until they match the standards in the RAF?

After all, the RAF is about to enforce a fitness strategy until its people meets the Army's standards.

:p

[Lamenting Navigator]

Oh, right, and there isn't a drinking culture amongst journalists?

Gimme a break.

[The Helpful Stacker]

samuraimatt - As it happens I took pride in my uniform and turning up for work so pissed that I couldn't work would not have been very professional. Of course I drank in the RAF but I either knew when to stop if it was a school night or I took the next day off.

I have mentioned on many occasions the fact that colleagues or folk in other sections have been drunk on duty but usually all that happens is they're sent back to their room/home to sleep it off, hardly the correct course of action for dealing with someone who is unfit for duty. Even when I've pushed J1 on possible action against individuals I've been told to let it drop as "otherwise where would we stop"?

As I touched on in my first post my main annoyance is the inconsistencies between dealing with drug use and dealing with alcohol abuse. Many thousands are spent to catch a very small amount of folk who use recreational drugs yet almost no heed is paid to the far larger amount of people who work under the influence of that nice, legal, taxable drug that is alcohol.

[Melchett01]

Quite from being detrimental to health, I would argue that given the operational stresses we are under now - as alluded to in the article - that alcohol can actually be beneficial to health.

At the end of my first tour in Iraq, my friends could see that all wasn't quite right. After a week or so at home, a couple of my closest friends took me to the bar and got me absolutley paralytic until I talked about what I had been through. This was before the days when troops were given decompression after a difficult tour. If my friends hadn't done what they did, I would have still been wound up tighter than a duck's arse and no doubt a basket case a year later. And I would put good money on a significant proportion of current serving personnel on this site using the bar for the same function after a difficult time.

Yes turning up half cut on a regular basis is not the best way to operate, but remember that this is more than a pure hard drinking culture. It is often a safety valve you can't get anywhere else.

[The Helpful Stacker]

If you were that concerned why didn't you contact the RAF Police or the Oic of the section or Squadron? After all working on Aircraft whilst under the influence of alcohol is a criminal offence.

Strangely you are very selective about which bits of my posts you quote so I'll help you with the bit you missed.

Even when I've pushed J1 on possible action against individuals I've been told to let it drop as "otherwise where would we stop"?

I would say that is pretty much trying to go through official channels. I've spoken to SEngOs on the matter and they have just said "the lads had a beer call last night" (or words to that effect) and seemed to think that covered it fine.

Turning up for work with a hangover and turning up reeking of booze and in such a state you have to be stood down are two very different things. I would say that the latter is as bad as someone working on aircraft under the influence of illegal drugs. Would you agree or disagree?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Well the symptoms of someone with a hangover include dehydration, fatigue, headache, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, weakness, elevated body temperature, hypersalivation, difficulty concentrating, anxiety, irritability, sensitivity to light and noise, erratic motor functions, and trouble sleeping. I guess working on aircraft with some or all of these symptoms is OK then?

No not at all, which is why if I ever envisaged that a night out would be so 'big' that I wouldn't be able to work effectively in the morning I took the next day off.

I can't work out what you are trying to get at. Are you purely trying to go after me on this point or do you have an opinion on excess drinking and its effect on flight safety which doesn't involve trying to rope me in as some kind of hypocrite?

Hell, perhaps I was just too professional for the RAF and its now better of without me, who knows eh?

[Lamenting Navigator]

Agree wholeheartedly, Melchett01.

[Two's in]

This from the nanny Nation that has now decided that getting drilled by the Met is a breach of Health and Safety rules, but not apparently manslaughter. Was there anything in this magnificent piece of journalism about the Pope having "Catholic" tendencies or traces of Bear feces being found in the woods? As for the Air Force not drinking as much due to maturity and education - hilarious. Not many of the girls at my school were good drinkers either.

[Maple 01]

It's disgusting, I'd like to take this opportunity to appologise for the RAF's modern drinking tendencies. I’d just like to say as a proud ex-member of the RAFG formation drinking team that the fact that our Green and Dark Blue are out performing us in this arena is nothing short of a scandal

Immediate 4 month tours of Base Area Gringo, Islas Malvinas all round until standards improve

[Lamenting Navigator]

Maple 01 - too right. Although I'd never advocate my actions, there is a distinct amount of pride in being the last (wo)man standing at some recent dos and feeling fine the next day. Not bad in the modern 'purple' environment, I might say.

Keeping the light blue end up (so why am I vegging infront of the telly tonight??)

[WhiteOvies]

THS, quite agree that turning up for work paralytic is out of order but it is usually picked up by the local management. I have had to send guys back to their rooms for this as have many others on these forums. The sqns are well aware of the potential airworthiness effects of drunken maintenance and it is very much frowned upon. It has been suggested in the past a 'bottle to spanner' time could be implemented but I leave it up to you if you think this would be at all practical:hmm:

Being dark blue in a light blue world I can only say that in my experience, when the occasion has suited, the RAF has managed to drink it's quota just as well as anyone else. ;) Watch out for Buckie drinking Booties though :ouch:

[Biggus]

THS

'.....perhaps I was just too professional for the RAF and its now better of without me.....'

If you believe the former than I would say the latter is also true!

[RETDPI]

Maple 01. I just suspect we may possibly know each other (although not daring to admit it)
No doubt in my mind that alcohol is one of the best filters for working out who is who and bonding teams together. Who needs modern PC!
A good Farnborough was always judged as one at which more booze was consumed than kerosine.

[Spinflight]

Two thirds of men and half of women in the military also admitted to hazardous drinking, where they consume more than 10 pints a week.

10 pints equals roughly 20 units, less than the mandated 28 units per week. To me anyone who drinks less than 10 pints a week is teetotal, and probably a puff. :)

Hazardous? I suspect it would be far more hazardous to not drink 20 units per week in the forces. If you can't unwind and have a few jars with your mates, hopefully far more than 10 a week, then what the f**k can you do?

“They are drinking large amounts of alcohol over just a couple of days when they are off duty,”

My god! A conspiracy of drinking over the weekends has emerged! Don't tell the secret to civvies else the lucrative nightclub business would crumble and fall!

It is also the main cause of violence in the Army with 75 per cent of violent offences being alcohol related.

VIOLENCE? In the Army??!! We must root out this evil tendency. One wonders how they manage to slot anyone without the enabling effect of alcohol.

“There has been no real leadership from the top to tackle this issue of alcohol misuse and the culture is simply handed down from generation to generation.

Tight fisted barstewards if its true.

[Giant Swede]

Spinflight, some valid points for an early morning post. A good session down the pub or in the sqn bar often works wonders for ironing out issues and as pointed out for "bonding", dets are an excellent example of this. As long as people are not turning up for work pissed and having an impact or setting the wrong example, a good thrash away from flying generally does the job. However, where it has a negative impact on a sqn/unit it has to be managed.

[Wensleydale]

How things have changed from those days when you were marked down in your annual report for NOT drinking with your collegues - even those of us who commuted by motorcycle! :ugh:

[cm74]

One thing that doesn't make me proud of being in the RAF is the 'holier than thou/better than you' arrogance that some of my light blue brethren adopt.

To those that feel they might fit into this bracket, you need a swift kick in the pods and a 6 month tour where there's no hotel/rates/bar and the dobbers drive sandy coloured Land Rovers like the real troops.

If you don't like the idea of people getting a bit pished and enjoying themselves then either do something about it or p*ss off and leave us alone to get on with it.

(This reply has not helped my current hangover one iota)

:ooh:

[BORN4THESKYS]

It's laughable to suggest that we drink more now than ever before. What about back in the Victorian days, did we not binge drink then?

[Lamenting Navigator]

It's a perception that the media / health obsessives are touting. Whilst turning up for work so off your face you can't do the job is well out of order, 'being seen', i.e. drinking with colleagues and those higher up the chain, goes on all the time. Even on Tuesdays.

I think it's really hypocritical of some to shout 'ban' straight away when they themselves partake in the binge. It's all about handling yourself and social responsibility - and I don't need a bunch of do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do types telling me otherwise.

What will they ban with the next moral outrage, one wonders...?

[rmac]

The whole British Empire was established on sending Jack and Tommy out to fight with a litre of dark rum inside them to warm them up a bit :E

As the RAF emerged a little after that period, I imagine that the lack of "cultural" heritage is what is causing the inability to keep up :}

[OHP 15M]

Anyone fancy a pint ? :ok:

[cm74]

Just the one OHP?

Chaser?

[LowObservable]

erratic motor functions

That's odd, usually my car starts OK whatever I've been drinking.

[FATTER GATOR]

During exchange to Aus some years back (90's) we were called into the Stn Cdr's office to explain why the most of the Mess fire extinguishers were in the bar (empty), why a few items of silverware were a different shape (rugby) and why the piano was outside (smouldering). One SEM (that's AEO to you and me) remarked that we had 'had a few'. The staish quizzed him on this and I quote:

'Well Sir, I had 2 G&T's, 2 glasses of white, 3 glasses of red, 2 whiskies, lots of port and about 5 pints.....oh, and then we started drinking...Sir'

All 6 people in the office fell about laughing.
Expensive to put right but no further action taken.

[Lamenting Navigator]

cm74: That chaser still going or would you be up for a start the week cocktail?

[cm74]

After reading some of the stuff on the Nimrod thread, I reckon I'm going to get started on the cocktail list.....feel free to join in.

:}

[Lamenting Navigator]

cm74: Start a cocktail thread in jet blast and I'll see you there...

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

This was somewhat inevitable. Having smoked the smokers and driven them to furtive "puffs" behind the bike sheds, the fun police clearly need a new crusade to focus on. Hard times ahead, I suspect. The qualifications for being a "binge drinker" are truly astounding.

Anyway, time for a soothing glass of Old empire IPA.

[Lamenting Navigator]

GBZ - Real ale in the Mess, now there's an idea!