Sky News - Rise Of The Machine: Who Needs Pilots?

[plans123]

Sky News - Taranis (http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,30100-1291238,.html)

Pass the X-Box........

[beardy]

Duncan Sandys learned a thing or two about not needing pilots.

[LowObservable]

I thought it was the guy that the Droitwich police are seeking to interview under the Unlawful Interference (Sheep) Act of 1827. (Sorry Jacko, you can stick it to me sometime.)

But the manned fighter is dead, Sky says so, and as Tom Robinson put it:

"It's there in the papers/It must be the truth."

Suuuuurrrre.....

[dodgysootie]

Prototype to fly in 2 years, that will be 10 years then! 124 million, that will be 248 million then. Welcome to the Taranis 2025...
Sorry im tired.....
DS

[AlJH]

a_a, that looks rather like Yeoves.

[GPMG]

The end of pilots in the RAF?

Jump, jump John......:(

[airborne_artist]

AlJh - Think you'll find it's not VL. Probably about 80-100nm ENE of VL, is my guess.

[D O Guerrero]

Apparently these things 'will make the eurofighter look obsolete'.

I thought that already happened?

[airborne_artist]

Certainly most of the processors in the Europhoon are not just obsolete, but totally dated. Am I right that they are Intel 486 variants?

[MrBernoulli]

Who needs Sky News? Bloody amateurs!

[Tigs2]

Airborne, that would be about right - 486.
Tornados in 1980 were running on nothing more than a C64. The problem is the design and spec are set 20 years before they role the aircraft off the production line.

[critical winge]

More importantly, it has only taken less than a century of aerial warfare from WW1 to now to be rid of the pilot. Is that progression or regression as we come full circle to having a flying machine without a pilot. If so then that was a short lived moment in human history, lets hope that innovation into the space race is the next 100 years challenge for human piloted vehicles! Who knows, whats next?

[L J R]

Funny how BAE try to publicise their toy as USAF and RAF introduce their UCAV. MQ-9

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123071575

[Heimdall]

Perhaps the most interesting and accurate comment in the Sky News report was that in future individuals will not want to join the RAF as pilots or WSOs if it means they'll just end up flying a UAV or UCAV - they will "avoid it like the plague".

As the RAF needs to develop and retain an experienced pool of UAV / UCAV operators, who as individuals will be keen to remain within that community, rather than return to regular flying operations, perhaps it's time to consider whether employing highly trained aircrew for UAV / UCAV operations is the most cost effective and efficient long-term option?

Given the performance characteristics of the Predator, I would venture to suggest that anyone with a PPL and IR would be suitable for consideration for potential training. Lets remember that the Army currently operate the Hermes 450 in Iraq without the benefit of 'aircrew' and the US Army will soon be operating a version of the Predator without using 'aircrew', so the precedent has already been set elsewhere. Given the current C4 arrangements, obtaining weapons release approval from higher up the chain is not too difficult and may already be in use, so I would even suggest opening the gate for SNCOs - that's who the Army currently employ.

Given the continual shrinkage of the RAF, it's vitally important that the service makes the very best use of it's available assets and I am sure I am not alone in believing that the debate over how best to fill UAV / UCAV operators posts is one that will need to be addressed sooner rather than later.

Heimdall

[Phil_R]

> Tornados in 1980 were running on nothing more than a C64.

Having seen boards from original Tornados, I would suggest not even that - although they seemed to be using unnecessarily stone-age technology even for the time, presumably on the basis that stone-age technology is EMP hard.

Phil

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Phil,

NASA cite that as the reason for using stone age (relatively) IT in the shuttle/sattelites, as modern processors are constructed on such a small scale that radiation/cosmic rays etc is more likely to interfere with it's normal operation, so it doesn't seem an unreasonable concept.... suspect it's all a question of saving money though! Bet that your old 486 you put in the recycling section of the tip ends up on the 'phoon!

[Modern Elmo]

Duncan Sandys learned a thing or two about not needing pilots.

Maybe it's still 1957 or 1947 for your aerospace industry. But not for other peepuls'.

Better enrich your word wealth with this: "pilot optional." All US tactical aircraft with fly-by-wire, F-16's, F-18's, F-35's and so on, will in the future probably have a pilot optional mode. The USF is already, without much publicity, flying U-2's that way.

For example, what can a piloted Typhoon sent to intercept a Roosky intruder do that a robo Typhoon sending back live video and other sensor data couldn't do, except do it with less endurance?

And besides, if they're letting wimmin fly fighter planes, the manly macho silk scarf knights of the sky romance is already fading, isn't it?

Next time in your next life, go Army.

[Fareastdriver]

Way back in 1962 as a Pilot Officer on my first squadron having a beer in the bar
I was waylaid by an Engineering Branch Air Commodore who asked me what it was like to be in a dead-end job. I didn’t know what he meant so he continued.
“Don’t you know that you will not be around in ten years, you are all going to be replaced by missiles.”
Chortling in agreement with him were a couple of his minions. I tried to argue against this but I was virtually told to shut up and not to contradict Air Commodores.
That was forty five years ago and I gather the RAF is still strapped for pilots.
The civil world has a similar view from CEO’s and technocrats. The technology is there to replace the pilots and they would love to do it. No more whinging pilots complaining about their T&Cs and wanting to get some sleep in.
The problem is that one day an automated weapons system is going to bomb the wrong target or a fully loaded automatic airliner is going to fly into a mountain.

WHO DO YOU BLAME?

[ORAC]

Bet that your old 486 you put in the recycling section of the tip ends up on the 'phoon! Don't joke... For Parts, NASA Boldly Goes . . . on eBay (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0CE2DF1739F931A25756C0A9649C8B63)

[L J R]

Heimdall,

Clearly you have no idea about what the guys in the US actually do, how they do it, nor the differences in aircraft types etc...

[backseatjock]

Dodgysootie - you might just be surprised. BAE has already cut 'first metal' on Taranis after a development time of just a few months. It has been flying autonomous UAVs in both Scotand and Australia for some time and is among the first worldwide to do this.

The RAF has also been showing interest in HERTI a prop powered UAV, specifically developed for recce missions. I think you will find that this is a highly capable platform!

[Arcanum]

Phil,

NASA cite that as the reason for using stone age (relatively) IT in the shuttle/sattelites, as modern processors are constructed on such a small scale that radiation/cosmic rays etc is more likely to interfere with it's normal operation, so it doesn't seem an unreasonable concept.... suspect it's all a question of saving money though! Bet that your old 486 you put in the recycling section of the tip ends up on the 'phoon!

Correct. Currently, radiation hardened technology is being built on 130nm processes that are 5-years behind the cutting edge 45nm technologies. That said, there are some technologies out there that allow newer processes. Also, it is possible to design around some of the problems with error checking or even do the same work on, say, five different processors and choose the majority result (in fact, I think the Typhoon uses this approach).

Anyhow, the reasons for the old technology in military systems is two-fold. Firstly it takes a long time to design safety critical systems (both hardware and software). This isn't unique to the military space as the design and qualification process for a car ABS system is around five-years. Secondly, when choosing a supplier you want to make sure you can still get parts in 25-years. Intel will guarantee that certain products will be supported for a very-long period of time.

Anyhow, military technology is always a long way behind civilian tech. Indeed, a high end cell phone has a similar level of processing power as the Typhoon, but then again, if your phone crashes it won't cause anything like the same problems!

[backseatjock]

News release on the wires today re actual deployment by RAF of an autonomous UAV system in Afghanistan.

(Begins) The deployment of the BAE Systems HERTI UAV system into an operational environment has been hailed a success by both the RAF and BAE Systems – partners in the unique Project Morrigan.

The RAF deployed a HERTI system, one of the world’s first fully autonomous unmanned air vehicles (UAV), in Afghanistan this summer as part of Project Morrigan, a joint initiative between the RAF Air Warfare Centre and BAE Systems. Launched in September 2006, it aims to integrate HERTI UAV systems into UK forces for a short period in order to develop potential Tactics, Techniques & Procedures for the integration of HERTI’s capabilities into existing joint manned/unmanned force structures.

Commenting on HERTI’s role in Afghanistan Wing Commander Mike Humphreys, Officer Commanding of the RAF’s UAV Battlelab, said: “Whilst the objectives and outputs from the exercise remain classified, the HERTI system has been successful in demonstrating its capability in an operational environment. Both the RAF and BAE Systems are satisfied with the progress and development of the project thus far and we look forward to building on this in the coming months”.

With its ability to take off, complete a full mission and land – all at the click of a computer mouse – HERTI has been designed to meet a wide variety of operational needs both cost effectively and with extremely high levels of reliability whilst removing the need for an operator or pilot to control the aircraft from the ground.

The HERTI UAV is one of a family of unmanned air vehicles (UAV) being developed by BAE Systems through its Autonomous Systems and Future Capability, Integrated System Technologies and Australian businesses. Through this work, BAE Systems has been able to translate high levels of autonomy into increased operational effectiveness.

Initially a concept demonstrator, HERTI's first flight was achieved in December 2004 using common systems, powerplants and ground stations with other BAE Systems UAV programmes. It builds on previous major achievements where BAE Systems has flown six different UAVs over the last five years. These included the first, and still the only, fully autonomous flight by a UAV in UK airspace with Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) clearance.

Mark Kane, Managing Director of Autonomous Systems and Future Capability at BAE Systems said: “What we have done in developing HERTI is to produce a platform that is affordable, built to meet operational needs, and which will offer levels of reliability that up until now will have only been available in manned aircraft.

The key to HERTI is that we have developed a capability and task driven system that will deliver high levels of operational performance in a wide range of different roles. Project Morrigan,and our own trials have given us further confidence that HERTI is uniquely placed to meet customer requirements around the world.”

[Northern Circuit]

I have a 'Gems' ready

for a robot with an obnoxious chip that sets fires to the pianos at mess functions

NC

[cornish-stormrider]

If my phone is as complex as a 'Hoontypherer then where do I go to get the EJ200 power source:E

[John Farley]

And besides, if they're letting wimmin fly fighter planes,

I should think so too. They can pull more g than men and when their corner is really threated said wimmin are more vicious and ruthless than any bloke I have met.

[Modern Elmo]

I should think so too. They can pull more g than men and when their corner is really threated said wimmin are more vicious and ruthless than any bloke I have met.

The correct PeeCee party line.