AGE

[marty1468]

I'm a 39 year old in training Commecial Pilot with limited funds (in Australia). I have always had the dream to fly and have been working towards that goal but i sometimes feel as if all of this money might be wasted. Everyone seems to dismiss my chances at a job flying saying that i am too old. Does anyone else have this enigma and how do you handle it. I am usually a positive person but after a while, the relentlessness of these comments can bring you down and i think about quitting. I hope to finish my CPL(A) by April 08 and go on from there.
I recently read an article from an Australian Regional Airline saying that the pilot shortage here is becoming critical and that some flights are being cancelled due to lack of aircrews. They cited this lack of aircrews was due to poaching by the major airlines. I sent an email asking if they would consider an older pilot with low hours for training with a view to full time employment and who would be more than happy to spend his career with them. As of yet no reply but here's hoping.

[komac2]

you Might as well have a go - their is only one way to find out - no harm in trying(althou a strain on the pocket) - my personal opinion in regards to regionals and link operators is if they want to hang onto crew their going to have to start looking at more mature pilots as their is less chance of them jumping the boat. Best of luck and hope it works out for you-stay positive and stay focused as their are plenty of baggers out there.

[marty1468]

Thank you for the encouragement. I am still giving it my best shot. I have a UK passport as well so the option of converting my license to JAA and trying in Europe is also there. A friend of mine got a job with EasyJet just over 2 years ago and he was 38 then and also low houred.

[JoeGlum]

best of luck with it. Takes a lot of balls to switch tack completely imo and I hope you suceed.

[Canada Goose]

Age is an issue. It's certainly not impossible to gain a job and there is plenty of evidence to show that. However, it's a damn site harder and in the UK there are many airlines that won't consider older wannabes, though of course with the ageism law passed in the UK a year ago they wouldn't admit to such practices.

In theory I should stick out from the average wannabe. Actively paradropping; +600 hrs; first time passes; etc etc. But not a sniff. Then again I limited my search to those I have felt are worth applying to

1. Airline pays for TR (or pays you back the costs)
2. Airline with a base a sensible distance from family home

Which is the other issue with age. Quite often linked to being married with kids, mortgages etc etc. Not so easy to just up sticks and swan off at the drop of a hat.

So.......if you can afford the risk (I could - so no regrets), adn you have no wife, kids etc to think about then go for it if it's really what you want to do. I can't comment on the industry in Australia (however, be weary about 'pilot shortages'. Yes, I have heard this rumour about Oz, but what they often really mean is, pilots with plenty of experience ready to move over to the LHS. So don't believe it at face value).

Ohh and a couple of other things

1. Bruce Dickinson is a multi millionaire (hell - in the early 80's I even helped him achieve such riches !!). Might be wrong, but he started off with Astreus, which if I am not mistaken was a SSTR, i.e. you pay for you 737 TR. Drop in the ocean for him. I'm sure he is a very competent and professional pilot, but really, he must view this as a hobby to some extent. He certainly doesn't need the money.

2. A friend of mine got a job with EasyJet just over 2 years ago and he was 38 then and also low houred. . It has been my understanding that Easy only take experienced crew on, apart from through the CTC scheme. I thought 38 was too old for CTC !! (See AGE IS AN ISSUE !). Unless by low hours is defined in Oz as below 2000 hrs ?

Good luck in your choice anyway - just don't rush in !!

CG.

[marty1468]

Thanks SL and CG

I agree, i dont think 39 is too old and i definately would appreciate a flying job in a regional airline much more than an hour builder. I also have a wife and baby daughter but no mortgage so i dont really have to worry about moving.

The negativeness in the industry is amazing. I even had my A.M.E telling me i was probably a bit too old to get a job.

Good luck to you as well.

My friend who got the job with easyJet did go through the CTC scheme so i dont think age is an issue there. I guess if you have the money age is not a barrier anyway. He went for the interview with EJ but was told he didn't have the required experience but he was asked to stay for the interview process anyway as that would help him next time he applied. (he had less than 600 hours). Anyway, at the end of the process they pulled him aside and said that they would like to hire him regardless. That's one lucky guy i think.

Marty

[mightymouse111]

Age is an issue but it should not be an issue. The issue should be based on demonstrated ability.
I spoke to a recruitment manager of a large Dash8 operator based in the UK. He was really happy with my CV and what i had accomplished but did not like the fact I was 36. He said i was a training risk for the TR on the TP. Since then I have finished a large jet TR. Just goes to show that they know nothing and talk out their a***s.
Age is not an issue if you have the ability the motivation and the desire to succeed, but you will come up againist prehistoric recruitment personnel that will look no further than your age.
Best wishes.

[Canada Goose]

Here Here MM-111 !!

[soullimbo]

Thanks CG, MM-111 for your advice,

[Happy Wanderer]

SL,

I reckon a large part of the 'should I, shouldn't I?' debate ultimately boils down to working out how comfortable you are with risk and living with the thought that you may well never know whether you've made the right decision or not until you land a job.

I'm 45, and decided to embark on this road (a life's ambition) after taking redundancy from my previous employer. Passed my PPL last October, achieved first time passes in my ATPLs exams between then and last July, and am currently nearing the end of my CPL/ME training. The plan - at the moment anyway - is to complete my IR, and then do a SSTR, probably A319/320/321.

I did a fair bit of research and talked to many people before embarking on this road - and still do - and to be honest you'll hear good things one day and not-so good the next, a fair reflection perhaps of the cyclical nature of the industry. The current situation clearly remains very fluid, with some carriers expanding and others consolidating. It wasn't so long ago that all I read and heard of a 'critical shortage' of pilots, but 'a flat UK market for the next 12 months or so' seemed to be key message at the BALPA conference I attended a fortnight ago.

So only time will tell as to whether I made the right decision given my age, or whether I've been deluding myself all this time - no airline in their right mind is going to give me any clues right now. Whatever the outcome (and I'm as determined as the next man), I will have had no regrets, met some great people along the way and enjoyed some tremendous flying.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

HW

[marty1468]

HI Guys,

You all are encouraging and that for me keeps me motivated. I am 90% of the way to my CPL and have just applied for a small loan to get me the rest of the way.
I also got a phone call today from the regional airline i mentioned in my first post and they told me that they don't usually reply this quickly to emails as they recieve almost 800 a day but they felt that they wanted to reply to me by phone. Basically they told me that they don't discriminate on age so that's a good thing, but that was for their ab-initio cadet scheme. I'm not sure how a direct entry pilot would go. They invited me to submit my application for the cadetship scheme where i would have to do the whole 150 hour training scheme ( I already have 190) and fork out another $40000 (they pay the other half i think). It's a 32 week course, full food and accomodation supplied. I'm thinking of just finishing my CPL as i am currently doing, then do my ME/IR and ATPL and possibly a JAA conversion ( i am dual Aussie/British citizen). I have also thought about just going out at the end of all this and getting a TR on a 737NG or A320/19 and seeing what happens. Expensive what if's though...

Good luck to everyone here.

Marty

[mightymouse111]

Marty. I received lots of letters prior to any flight training, from many airlines on the age issue. They all said that they did not discriminate on age. (they are not going to admit it are they!!!!). Then when i came to get a job, people with less experience, worse grades etc were getting interviews with these airlines but i was not, i drew the conclusion that they were discriminating on age!

I am also not sure if the stats show that older people have a lower % of passing courses, it may or may not be true. But you would have to take in mind the individual. Many older people tend to have a wife and children, these can be very demanding and take up a lot of time. They can also be unfitter (its a longer time period since school PE lessons and football on the field). If they have not continued any professional study then it will also be longer since they have done any exams.
The airlines should look at these points and make an assessment. Many of us older people are single, and physically and mentally fit and can demonstrate this. I know airlines dont look at these points hence I call them prehistoric!

[Happy Wanderer]

Read the 12th post in this thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=297870 - us older folks can (and do) get jobs.

HW

[marty1468]

Hi HW,

That is sure a post that is encouraging. RHS on a jet with only 440 hours. That's amazing. It certainly wouldn't happen here in Australia. I have a couple of questions if anyone can help here:
1. Do people go out straight after their CPL training and get TR'd on 737's etc and if so would airlines look at this favourably?
2. How do people finance these type ratings as obviously they woould be unemployed during this time?

Marty

[EGCC4284]

Hello Happy Wanderer

I am glad you referred to my post in the other thread.

I was very very lucky but I would say that I created my own luck.

I do feel for those yet to get their first break into this industry.

I did my line check 2 weeks ago after 2 months of line training.

During my line check flight, the line check Captain accessing me asked how old I was knowing that I only had 440 hours when I started at this company. I told him I was 40 and thought no more of it.
I passed my line check first attempt. During the debrief after my line check flight, the line check Captain explained the reason he asked my aged. This was to confirm his thoughts, which was that I had brought my experience of life into the flight deck with regards my CRM with my Captain. He said that I picked up on a couple of mistakes that my Captain had made during the days flying and that I had very respectfully brought these mistakes to the attention of my Captain. The line check Captain told me that the atmosphere in the flight deck for the days flying was very good and he put this down to my people skills. He said that being the age that I am, was a bonus and that my experience of life is something you cannot buy. I thought it was very nice of him to mention this.

Yes I found the type rating the hardest thing I have ever done, but the line training was great fun. All the line trainers at my company are a great bunch of guys and made it very enjoyable.

I have the e-mail addresses for those who hires for many of the large jet operators in the UK . I have plenty of rejection e-mails saying I don't fit the profile, I will struggle wit a TR, I need 1500 hours Turboprop, etc etc etc. Well I am here now and don't intend dropping out.

I was 40 in August and now have about 150 hours on the 737. My line training was 60 sectors due to being low houred.

On the class of 10 that were on my type rating course, there was only one guy under the age of 30. The was 3 of us above 39 and who were all low houred, me being one of them. The other 7 were ex BMI Regional, Flybe, Citystar etc etc with loads of hours. So I am glad to say that the company I now work for did give 3 of us a chance and so far so good.

I do wish Monarch, My Travel, Thomas Cook, First Choice? easyJet, BA Mainline and many other large jet operators would realise that being above 35 and low houred is not always going to be a problem. We do sometimes have something extra to offer. I suppose its all about risk and them trying to make sure they employ someone who is not going to fail a type rating.

I think many airlines, especially jet operators are missing out on good applicants and I think they need to review their application process. Yes the older we are, the harder we find it to learn, but some of us have other quality's to offer.

I do take my hat off to Pete Durnford at Baby. I do know that in the past he has given low houred older guys a chance. If the were more like him, things would be better for the older wannabes.

Last piece of advice, do not be afraid to pick the phone up and call these airlines. They are people like me and you. Get on the phone and keep telling them how much you want to work for them. When you get rejected, get on the phone again and don't take no for an answer. This is what I did and it paid off.

All everyone needs is a chance. You may have to make that chance happen.

If any of the big operators reading this would like a recommendations, I have a friend, 41years old, 500 hours instruction looking for a chance.

Sorry for poor grammer, its late.

[SteveEarle]

Hi Marty. Been there myself. Dont let the detractors influence u. I found that some people were jealous that I had the temerity to persue my dream. I got my cpl age 39 in 1994. I worked for a regional airline on turboprops at just over half the salary I had been on in my previous job. Much laughter from the detractors but I enjoyed going to work whereas they were just waiting for retirement! I'm now a captain on a 757 for a major freight carrier. The best advice I can give is stick with it, perserverence is at least as important as ability.
Good luck mate.

[marty1468]

Thanks Steve,
I'm getting loads of great responses that are keeping me motivated and what's more, i can show my wife that hopefully this isn't going to be a great waste of money.
I am currently working at Boeing Australia as a tech writer which is financing my CPL training part time and i hope to finish it next year. I turn 40 in April so i want to get a move on. We dont own a house or anything so i am thinking of trying to get into CTC in England as i have a British passport as well as an Australian passport. I'm not sure how to finance this yet though. I notice they say they can get you finance from one of the banks there but i'm not sure if that would apply to a non resident (Even though i am a citizen).
I'm glad there are lots of us older wannabes out there.

Marty

[komac2]

Re: CTC don't think the fact that you are living in AUS would be a prob as far I as Know they have taken on UK or EU country passport holders for cadet training that were living in canada, south africa in the last twelve months, more getting to the uk for the selection that would be the biggest hirdle.

[8028410q]

I'm 43 and have been working for a small LCC for the past two years based out of MAN, in fact, I'm the one who passed EGCC4284's CV to PD! How'ya doing EGCC?
I too started late, decided to go for my training at the age of 35, did it at 37, and finally got my foot in the door at the age of 40, now in the RHS of a 737, with 2200 hrs.
Although EGCC did not get the job with baby, he got to speak to the right people (PD), and networking is an important aspect for job hunting. EGCC made all the rights moves, as a refueller, he had access to the flightcrews on a daily basis and would pester us poor F/O's about who to contact, and how to contact them.
EGCC made a 'ballsy' move and asked me to forward his CV to our chief pilot, I could have chucked it in the gash bag, but didn't, knowing that I was once in his position, desperate for leads into the industry.
I'm glad you made it EGCC, and this should serve as an inspiration to the other older wannabee's out there.
My pieces of advice to those contemplating a career change:
1. if you're serious, do it - but never, ever give up.
2. if you know a pilot, pester him/cajole/threaten/buy him a beer, he could get your CV onto the table of the person who matters...
3. if you don't know a pilot, do as EGCC did, get a job where you can network your way into meeting the right people.
Best of luck to you all.
8028410q

[EGCC4284]

Hello

I thought EGCC4284 was a mouthful

I am doing fine thank you

I think I remember speaking to you on bay 7 or 9 about 2 years ago.

I remember you telling me your age and that you had only just started the year before with minimum hours.

I remember when you told me this, it gave me hope and that extra push to keep going.

Thanks for handing my CV at that time. That was possibly 1 of the 15 that I eventually sent him.

Through my networking, I managed to get PD's e-mail address and e-mailed several times. He always replied but was honest and never gave me false hope. I use to e-mail him every 3-4 months attaching an updated CV. At the same time, I would also send him a letter with CV by Royal Mail and another one by internal post (handing it to a Baby Pilot)

About a year after I started doing this, I went to the 2006 BALPA Conference and was amongst the last 6 guys to speak to P D. We sat down at his table to chat with him at about 17:15pm and he chatted with myself and 5 others for an hour an a quarter. About half way through him chatting to the 6 of us, I managed to mention my name and he stopped what he was saying, turned to me and said "I have got your CV" which proved to me that what I was doing was good enough for him to remember me. My system was working.

I often hear many at Baby say that if it was not for him, they would not be there?

With regards him giving older low houred guy's a chance, he is a credit to the industry. Its a shame many others are not like him.

I found that you have to keep in touch with the correct people who do the recruiting on a regular basis and not to be frighten of telephoning them. If you don't do this someone else will get the interview when it comes on offer.

If I did not get this 73 job, I would of flown anything if I could afford to do so and would of re located for the right job.

8028410q Please check your PM's

[Lightheart]

Marty,

I was 37 when I started my training. I even posted on here like you wondering if I had left it too late and whether I should go for it or not.

Now I'm 39, have my FAA and JAA licenses and am employed flying a TP. I had to make sacrifices. I've been with my partner for over 4 years, and half of that time we've been apart from each other, but I have her support 100%. The road was sometimes long and hard, but focus and perserverance is key. You may get setbacks sometimes, but if you're dedicated you'll make it.

I'm slowly building up my hours towards 1000TT and am even getting interest from corporate jet operators. Yes, I've had to take an almost 50% pay cut from what I was doing before, but I know it's only temporal. As I said, if you really want it you'll have to be prepared to sacrifce.

Listen to your heart, not the naysayers. So long as you have the suppport of your wife, have the will and singlemindedness to do it. You'll succeed.

Good luck.

[ap9dm1]

OK ... 38 yrs old and starting with FTE early 2008 after waiting all these years. Like most of the rest of you, I've done as much research as possible, flying academies, intergrated v modular, phoned pilots I knew (and didn't know), etc. etc. I bit the bullet and am now committed to it (which excites and terrifies me in equal measure).

I'm married with 2 young daughters, but I'm fortunate for 2 reasons, I have financial security in property to fund it, and I have a magnificent wife who fully supports me. But every now and then, the naysayers make me wonder if I'm about to make the biggest mistake of my life.

However, even if the worst possible outcome happens (failure), it can only ever be the 2nd biggest mistake of my life. The BIGGEST mistake would be regretting not having tried it when I had the chance as I look back in my (even) older years.

Last throw of the dice for me.

A question for those with family committments - how did/do you handle missing the partners/wives/kids? what impact did it have?

Del.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

As unfair as it might be, it's more important for you than youngsters to get a great training record. Airlines do worry about you failing a TR or line training, so if you can prove that so far you've more than matched up the grades of the kids it will help a lot.

If you have not gone the "integrated" route, it will also be more up to you to fight for those interviews. Not trying to re-open the old modular vs integrated debate, it's just a fact that you'll get more straight shots at airlines coming out of an integraged course. So if you have gone the modular route, NETWORK like crazy. Work as a dispatcher, nav planner, etc. Or if you want the bizjet route, work at outfits like Signature at large GA airports. It really does work.

Just short of 35 when I quit my business job. I'm now 37 and walking into (well, twisting myself into) the flight deck of a 737NG is a lot more fun than it was walking into my office :ok:

NEVER give up.

P

[Polorutz]

CTC has no upper age limit but being honest like the CTC staff said, it's selection staff are only humans and who knows whether they would have anything against your age and fail you for it, legally, there is no upper age limit.

I would like to point out that no matter how old you are you can always get a job instructing in europe and once you're making money from flying you can see what happens.