View Full Version : Hour Building - Suggestions?
29th Oct 2007, 16:28
I need to build 50 hours. I am very seriously thinking that the USA is the place to do it. I have a budget of £3000 for the hours wet. OFT reckon that I can get 50 hours for £2050. Not bothered what type as long as it stays airborne when I want it to.
I'm really after some good suggestions for some sort of structured package or ideas for what to do with the hours. I don't just want to burn a hole in the sky.
29th Oct 2007, 16:33
Can I ask what you need the 50 hrs for?
If its to get to 150 for CPL, dont bother, try the ME IR first, you need 70 P1.
29th Oct 2007, 16:33
Why don't you work toward a rating at the same time? IMC if you don't have one and with the hours left over just practice what you have been taught? might cost you a little more but you'll get more than just 50hrs on your book.
29th Oct 2007, 17:33
I did 50 hours at Ormond Beach and 50 hours at Anglo-American!
Anglo was brill as it was mountain flying - you were also really close to Las Vegas (so you can go for nights out there), Big Bear Ski Resort which is brill for a density altitude checkout, Palm Springs, LAX and San Fransisco!
The only thing with Anglo is that they are a bit laxed and you really have to keep on top of them about everything! If you willing to do this then I would go here! - They also let you pay as you go which is really good!
Ormond was good and there is alot of places to go flying to e.g. the Keys etc.. but it is very regimented and if you dont turn up they'll screw you for the money! Ormond make you pay up front which is crap if your there for a set time and you cant complete all your hours as there is no way your getting a refund!
I would also agree with the other guys about doing a rating to build hours! How many hours do you have? Poss do your complex or ME if your not up for or dont have the money to do your IR!
But make sure you enjoy the flying whatever you do :-)
29th Oct 2007, 17:56
Go to the US and rent off a US company, forget JAA approved schools because they will rent you old planes at sky high prices with European customer service (read that as crap). America is a fun place to hour build. :ok:
29th Oct 2007, 17:59
If you're near Barton join aircraft grouping and fly a spanking cessna 152 for 40 per hour and 110 per month you can get nearly 70hrs for 3 grand .
29th Oct 2007, 21:40
Try New Zealand. My 50hr PPL is costing me $7500 NZD, thats about 50 quid an hour. Plenty of summer work coming up in NZ as well if you want to subsidise your living costs - which are also cheap.
NZ is a great place to train for scenery and NZ licences are well regarded internationally. Might be worth a look?
29th Oct 2007, 22:45
That Aircraft Grouping idea looks interesting, do you have any more info on how it works? Members per aircraft, required experience, aircraft availability, max hours per member per month, etc?
30th Oct 2007, 12:38
The website pretty much explains it and there is a number there for the main chap who will also answer any questions you have but in a nutshell
We have five aircraft based at Barton and one at blackpool
2 x cessna 172s one of which is a G1000 and one PA28 . and two 152's all are as well equipped as each other , full airways fit autopliots GPS's etc etc .photos and fit can be seen on website.
We have an online booking system and availability is good .
For the four seaters you pay 130 quid per month and 65 per hour wet .
Not sure of the monthlys for the 152s but its around 90 per month and 45 ph wet .Its a great group flying some of the nicest Pa28s and cessnas around
have a look at the website and give Craig a ring .
there is no limit on useage per month if its available and you want it , then book it and fly it . You can join this group having just done your ppl if you wish , obviously a bit of training may be required for differing types and the G1000.
For anyone interested in twins the group now has one seneca and a twinstar en route . you wont believe how cheap they are either
30th Oct 2007, 17:29
It does sound good. I'm particularly interested in the DA42 as that's USA money for twin rental. I'll keep it in mind.
30th Oct 2007, 17:40
sqwkvfr... that's an excellent idea. I would assume you are on about OAT?
A structured houring building course that makes good use of the time between PPL and CPL is a great idea. This is exactly what I want to design for myself before I start the hour building during my ATPL studies. There is no point, in my opinion, flying around aimlessly merely to bank hours, rather than experience, as you say.
My only issue would concern the price. Modular students are, largely, very conscious of the costs of training, which is why many choose to go to the States in the first place. If a structured course is provided by such a well known British FTO, using this as an excuse to charge a premium for 'prestige' or whatever it is would put people off straight away. By putting some effort in before hand there is no reason why a similar effect cannot be achieved off your own back, so it needs to be attractive on this front as well.
Dedicated aircraft for hour builders (inc. twins), accommodation included on site, groundschool and some instruction on advanced techniques as a precursor to the CPL available... job's a good 'un. It would sell well if the price was right.
30th Oct 2007, 18:34
You have a good outlook regarding "not wanting to burn a hold in the sky."
Regardless of were you do it, if you're preparing for a modular course, be certain to use those hours to actually do something. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have students show up for a modular course and not have the sort of expreeince or skills that should be present in a person wiht 150 hours.
Practice R/T, performance and flapless landing along with glide approaches.
I had two students recently who didn't know how to track a VORs or NDB. This should have been something that they should have been practicing BEFORE our very short time together to prepare for the CPL. I had 10 hours to teach them CPL maneuvers in a twin (barely enough time to do that alone, and absolutely NO time to teach something that they should have already been good at)
Get some experience flying something with a constant speed prop and retractable gear. That'll make the modular CPL course much less "foreign." If you don't have the means, at least read up on these two systems or use a flight simulator (microsoft will do) to learn how manifold pressure and propellor RPMs are used during different flight conditions.
LEARN HOW TO LAND IN A CROSSWIND!!!
Now, if you're not preparing for a CPL, my advice is worthless, but hopefully other "hourbuilders" will read this and understand that it's not time that you need to build, it's experience.
Now, I've got a question for all of you folks considering the modular route:
If you needed to build time before beginning a modular course, would you find a package taught in the USA by instructors employed by a well-known British FTO (on their days off) for the purpose of teaching some of the things listed above usefull?
Is that something that some people would willing to do? You'd essentially be using your hour building to prepare for the course and fill the gap left by the PPL and CPL courses...
All sounds good to me and is exactly the sort of thing I need to do. Yes I am hour building to get to the magic 100 hours PiC before I can enrol on a CPL course. I have enough dual hours.
The only snag I can see with your final suggestion is that if the pilot is requiring instruction then is the time in the air still counted as PiC?. Also as I am hour building, cost is a major factor. Other FTOs do offer "structured hour building" but I wonder what this really involves?
Squawk I guess you are an instructor for OAT as you are at Phoenix, do they not already offer "structured hours building"?
I think there would be mileage in the idea in some sort of publication that details sortie profiles specifically aimed at hour builders. Obviously I can piece something together myself but a well put together and illustrated book written by an expert would be a real winner! Any takers??? I can draft read it for you:E
Anyway back to the ATPL studies urgggghhhhhhh.......
30th Oct 2007, 20:37
I had two students recently who didn't know how to track a VORs or NDB. This should have been something that they should have been practicing BEFORE our very short time together to prepare for the CPL.
Since when is VOR and ADF tracking on the CPL syllabus ? Its IR/IMC material and not on a CPL course ?? Unless its recently changed??
31st Oct 2007, 10:01
I believe position fixing is on the PPL and the CPL syllabus.
Maybe its a new thing but it wasn't on my CPL syllabus at the FTO I taught at, to teach VOR and NDB tracking. NDB tracking is a rather large subject to teach and get students to grasp in a relatively short space of time.
I was once told by a veteran CPL instructor to go and teach the PPL syllabus but to a higher standard.
31st Oct 2007, 11:07
I'm sure VOR position fixing is on the PPL syllabus. I distinctly remember we had to miss it out on my test because the aircraft we were using wasn't equipped. The examiner was happy with the fact that my instructor assured him VOR work was covered during my training, which it was.
Even if it wasn't on the syllabus, how any PPL could consider not using VOR/NDB as part of their navigation, if merely to add confidence to their own visual nav, is hard to understand. If anything I little more instrument training added to the PPL, and if you don't want/need this the other option lies in the NPPL.
A and C
1st Nov 2007, 10:04
Please PM me for a C152 based an airfield near you at the same sort of price that you would pay in the USA.
1st Nov 2007, 10:59
Fly in Spain, based in Jerez and run by a couple of German fellows.
They're good blokes and you get to fly in Europe where, supposedly, all the flying regs are unified.
£60 an hour will get you an archer I think.
A and C
1st Nov 2007, 15:59
A lot of £xx/hour for xxxx type and not much fact, so lets look at the numbers!
A well known Florida company OBA are offering a LX2 on a 50 hour package at £2895 and single accomodation at $320/week add the airline ticket LHR- Orlando (expedia today) £400 and for the two week package you get a total cost of £3615 or a total cost hourly cost of £72.30p.
I can offer you a C152 in the UK at about £60-62/log book hour........that is a hard fact so why pay more and take the risk (with some companys) that if you dont fly all the contracted hours you won't get your money back.
Also if you take a few trips abroad you can reduce the hourly rate by about £7 because of fuel excise drawback.
1st Nov 2007, 16:37
A&C just to add a little balance, you didn't factoring in any UK landing fees of anywhere between £5-£15 (Landing and parking is free in America), in the UK you cant realistically go to big airports (unless you are prepared to pay £200+ in handling charges), you don't get a free hire car when you land somewhere to go exploring, British Weather is rubbish (especially this time of year) and GA is nowhere near as fun and easy as in the US.
You can get much better deals by going direct to American owned flight centres and newer, better equipped aircraft too. Don't get me wrong £62 per hour is a great rate for a C152 here and I think some hour building in the country you wish to work in is very beneficial but for quick & fun log book grinding, the US of A is hard to beat.
A and C
1st Nov 2007, 17:20
You are wrong !(on the landing fees at least)
The £62 is the total cost that was quoted to me by one of my customers it included all his costs over 35 hours flying.
Most of his legs were about 3 hours and he did a bit of research tried to land at airfields that did not charge to land if you pick up fuel.
Yes the weather did disrupt the flying a bit but the guy came back for another 20 hours and he did that in one week in October.
The weather in the USA is over rated (but much bettter than the UK) so I do make allowances in my price structure to account for the weather, some companys in the USA won't return your money if you don't fly the contracted hours, I will provided that the "good weather days" are used well.
As for the aircraft I doubt that you will find two better Cessna 152's on either side of the Atlantic! all my aircraft are very clean inside and out with modern radios.
I have flown in the USA and found that to get a quality service the prices far exceeded the rock bottom headline rates that you see in the back pages of the UK flying raggs, most of my customers have been to the USA and for one reason or another failed to get the flying that they wanted but the low quality of the aircraft is the common thread.
The hardest thing in selling this service is that the Brits are so steeped in the "rip-off UK" culture that they can't see a good deal on the doorstep and would rather pay more to go to the USA.
3rd Nov 2007, 02:38
Where you based out of, I'm at 85hrs on an ICAO PPL (South African) and would be interested but all depends where your located. I'm in the vicinity of Denham/Wycombe/White Waltham.
A and C
3rd Nov 2007, 09:53
You are the second person this week to ask to ask me about the SA PPL and at the moment I don't know the answer.
However the aircraft can be based at any airfeild that you want for the hours building contract, the whole business plan is that you would have exclusive use of the aircraft during the short term lease.
Please PM me with your email adress and I can send you the full details.