Emergency Exit seats - so who does get them?

[newswatcher]

Just completed a week in the States, using BA for long-haul sections(LHR-IAD), economy ticket. Going out, and coming back, used online check-in. Arrived at airport each end with some 3 hours to spare before departure and asked whether there were any emergency seats available. Not successful either way.
Asked check-in staff how I might get such a seat in future. They weren't able to tell me. In fact, at Dulles, I was told that, as I had already checked-in online, they would be unable to reseat me, even if an emergency row seat was available. Was also told by same person that the emergency row seats in the centre of the cabin were equipped for bassinets, therefore reserved for families! Might just drop a line to BA on that one!
So, how are these seats allocated?
PS still awaiting my bags, lost somewhere in Dulles!:mad:

[lexxity]

Was also told by same person that the emergency row seats in the centre of the cabin were equipped for bassinets, therefore reserved for families!

And your problem with that is what? Bassinets need to be attached to a bulkhead, the centre block is on a bulkhead so that is where families should be accommodated, makes sense for everyones comfort then. I don't work for BA.

[SXB]

Was also told by same person that the emergency row seats in the centre of the cabin were equipped for bassinets, therefore reserved for families! Might just drop a line to BA on that one!


You're assuming that the rules regarding children and emergency exit rows apply to the central row as well, in fact they don't. On a wide bodied jet the central seats in front of the bulkhead are generally reserved for people travelling with children. Think about it and it makes sense.

Some airlines will allow you to book emergency exit seat rows online and some won't, I think most won't.

[PAXboy]

The allocation of exit row seats is a black art and very few companies make a clear statement of policy. The only clear points are that:
No person may sit there if they cannot carry out the duties in an emergency and must have these explained to them and the crew have to be satisfied that they can do so.
All carriers are well aware of the desirability of these seats and some sell them at a premium - subject to safeguards in the small print. BA is not one of these. However, it seems to me, that some carriers use these as 'reward' seats, placing pax there in compensation for some other mishap. Other possibilities also exist.Personally, I dislike these rows for reasons I shall not bore you with and will try to sit one row in front/behind of the exit row. Being of average height, the leg room is not so critical but I have often seen that tall people seem to be wilfully denied these seats.

As to bassinets - they are on the bulkhead in the MIDDLE section of a wide body a/c not the actual exit rows themselves. Narrow body a/c do not normally have bassinets due to sector length, although I sit to be corrected on that as the multiplicity of carriers and fit-outs make it more than possible.

[FairlieFlyer]

And your problem with that is what? Bassinets need to be attached to a bulkhead, the centre block is on a bulkhead so that is where families should be accommodated, makes sense for everyones comfort then

Unless you fly with Air New Zealand

Just did a flight with them long haul in premium economy and they gave the seats to a middle aged couple

Yes, we pre-booked the bassinet seat months before but this couple checked in on the day with the Bassisnet seats and Air New Zealand refused to reseat them

We were offered the seats BEHIND with our 3 month old baby. Only after a lot of discussion were we offered another row with an extra seat between us. - Still no bassinet......plus a screaming baby - Absolute ludicrous

[lexxity]

I think you should be writing to NZ in that case! We always reseat pax to accommodate infants if for any reason we have missed them in the pre-flight edit.

[Married a Canadian]

I have found that being tall and saying I work in the industry (showing ID) normally works. I have only once been "wilfully" denied it...and it was fairly irritating to find the couple who were given them were only about 5ft tall!

BA have been pretty good in allocating the emergency exit row to me on that basis. KLM, I found I could book it online.

[bealine]

As PAXBoy already stated, for the purposes of having to be fit and able-bodied, the centre seats on a wide-bodied airframe are not designated as the Exit Row!

Most carriers who fall under CAA or FAA control will allocate bulkhead seats in order of preference to:

1. Pax with infants (because of the bassinet fitment position)
2. Registered Disabled or elderly pax (where this is made known to the airline at the time of booking) where the extra legroom afforded by a bulkhead seat is considered necessary.
3. Other pax (these "other" pax may be moved after checking in if a passenger turns up at check in with a baby or a disability.)

[newswatcher]

OK, I stand corrected by sxb :O, although I am confused that the middle section of the emergency row is not subject to the same constraints as the side seats of an emergency exit row. That would seem to introduce an additional risk to the safe evacuation of pax. Taking the 777 as an example, in an incident where it is impossible to exit left-side at row 26, due to an external fire, and there are bassinets in the middle of the row, pax would then appear to have to go to the exit forward of row 10 or to the back of the aircraft to get the next available exit. The 1985 BA 737 incident at Manchester showed only too sadly the effect of a reduction in the number of available exits.

However, that is not why I posted. :D Still not understanding how BA allocates emergency exit row seats. :confused: Online check-in did not allow this, even when checking-in as soon as the 24 hour window opened. So I would still be pleased to hear if anyone has any good ideas as to how I might be in a better position to bag one of these seats next time I travel long-haul on BA? ;)

Oh, and taking about bags, they are promised for delivery this evening. BA and United both saying that it was the fault of the other carrier! :hmm:

[10secondsurvey]

BA keep exit row seats for silver/gold card holders - I was told this by BA. You also have to remember the BA online system restricts the pre-allocation of seats to non silver/gold pax. That may explain why you couldn't see them. By the time you got to the airport, the savvy gold/silver frequent flyers had probably already 'bagged' them via online seat selection. I honestly think if you are not silver or gold, you get a raw deal from BA. Continental do the same (or for full fare econ) i.e preference for silver/gold, and pre-allocation only for silver/gold (or continental equivalent).

As for the bassinet row(s), I have seen a situation on a Virgin airbus A340-600. where a couple arrived but without a bassinet row (the front of Premium economy) allocated. The seats were already occupied. The couple involved, seemed to believe these seats were their god-given right, even though they clearly had not requested them. The Bassinet seats at Virgin, are not usually allocated until late into check in, just in case anyone comes with a baby, so I knew pretty well, these had not been booked by the couple with the baby. To me, it's a bit like getting a middle seat - tough luck!

They made a real fuss, and eventually, the CC moved the people in the seats (who had to split up). They were quite rightly not happy. I have to say, all it needed was a bit of diplomacy. The couple with the baby should have said, we understand we haven't booked these seats, but they would be really good for us with the baby, and then offered to buy a bottle of champagne or similar 'gift' to the other pax, to say please. A lot of people with kids just don't bother booking on the assumption they will be able to 'bully' their way into those seats.

Why can't people just try being nice?

[Kliperoo]

Ive flown on Air NZ quite a bit with family in both NZ and Canada, and 4 times now have I been given the emergency exits (once I didnt even ask for it!). Ive always flown economy and each time the flight has been chocker (both on their 74 and 77 aircraft.)

Ive found though that if you are just really nice and polite to the ticket agents that you can get almost anything you want (within reason).

I dont know that I would take the exits again though as my last flight I was stuck between 2 rather large people (well over the 150kg mark) and I was stuck between for the red eye AKL-LAX. I get the impression she did not shower either :{

[TightSlot]

Here's one possible point of view on infants. Pax travelling with infants pay a reduced fare (very approx 10%) for the infant, in exchange for which the pax agree to seat the infant on their lap during the flight. There is no right or entitlement to a bassinet, or any other provision for infants, since it has not been paid for. The best way to obtain and ensure appropriate space for an infant is to pay for it i.e. to buy it a seat.

[bbrown1664]

When flying back from Turkey a couple of years ago on Onur Air, my family was given the overwing emergency exit seats on the 737. Once onboard we were told we would have to move becasue my 11 year old and 5 year old were children. Eventually we swapped seats for TO only to see that the 80+ year old seated by the window had been alloed to remain in his seat. The geriatric had to be helped to his seat by crew and needed a stick to stand up yet he was allowed to saty and block the exit whilst my 11 year old who plays prop forward for his local rugby club had to move.

My money would have been on my son getting past the 80+year old, opening the exit and being out on the ground before the old duffer could even undo his seat belt.

Was that right? In their eyes yes, but reaslistically?

[PAXboy]

bbrown1664 No, it was not right in anyone's eyes - because the person in the evac row [not centre block] has to be able bodied. I can say with some certainty that the crew failed in their duties.

[perkin]

the crew failed in their duties.

...and quite possibly the check-in agent too...

I've also been on a KLM flight where the crew allowed an individual so tall & obese that he would not have physically fitted through the overwing exit on a 737 he was sitting next to. Very frightening thought indeed should an evacuation have been required. :eek:

There seems to be a wide variation between different airlines as to how brave/attentive the crew are in addressing issues of peoples ability to open and extract themselves through emergency exits - for example the last time I flew on Jet2, they did a lot of seat swapping as there were assorted minors (14 or 15 yrs of age) in exit seats (25/26 C & D in a 733), yet virtually every KLM flight I've been on, the crew has allowed some breach of regulations (reclined seat at TO, headphones in, window blind closed, un-able pax in exit row etc).

[PAXboy]

I am not surprised to hear that perkin. It is my long held view that the (overall) high safety records of airlines means that complacency is riding high.

It is known that, in a serious prang, emergency exits are almost irrelevant (a risky statement in here, I know) and the low speed prangs or 'simple' emergency evacs have a high enough survival rate for this problem not to arise. Further, if an unsuitable person is seated at the small evac doors and fails to open it correctly - then the dead cannot report this to us. We have to hope that the investigators can identify the person who was seated there and state if they prevented others getting out.

In other words, it is the old story that not enough people have died (recently) from an unsuitable person being in the evac row. Not only must more people die - it has to be conclusively proved by the investigators that the airline placed the wrong person there and that people died.

When that happens, the day after the report is published you will see every airline in the world implement the policy that they already have in place.

Yes, I am too cynical for my shirt but enough years of observing corporate behaviour can do that. :(

[perkin]

My 'obese man in exit seat' experience is one of the over-riding issues that means I fly a different airline to KLM wherever possible. I expect more from a so-called 'full-service' airline than the CC wandering through at departure 'securing' the cabin, while completely ignoring ever such basic safety items. A fire or other evac on the ground prior to departure is very much escapable and survivable...but only if your exit route is un-impeded...on the rare occasion this does happen, its oh so important to get out quickly and really can be the difference between life and death. Has everyone forgotten Manchester?

[WHBM]

It is known that, in a serious prang, emergency exits are almost irrelevant (a risky statement in here, I know)
I know you are looking for a challenge here (!), but just look at the Air France A340 overrun accident at Toronto where the aircraft was enveloped in flames just two minutes or so afterwards, but absolutely everybody got out first - precisely because of emergency exits. And (I would guess) a competent crew who had ensured they had the right sort of pax sat there.

Plenty of other examples.

[PAXboy]

Challenge neatly (and promptly) met WHBM. Yes, that is a good example and I was probably (backtracking on the runway!!) thinking of a fuselage that is badly ripped. As I recall, the AF 340 went straight and over relatively smooth ground?

However, I agree with you and perkin that these are very serious matters. My expectation is that, if I am involved in an emergency evac, the greatest threat to my life will be my fellow pax. Particularly the ones that have been incorrectly seated by the carrier. I think that selling the evac row seats should be banned by the CAA as it sends all the wrong signals. Yes, I know, that the small print says that you have to be able bodied and may be moved by the CC, it would be fascinating to have a comprehensive survey.

[perkin]

AF A340 at Toronto is a prime example WHBM. Had there been someone blocking one or more of the exits, I can only imagine there would've been significant loss of life from smoke inhalation and a few minutes later serious burns. I for one don't want to risk losing my life due to someone not being capable of opening and/or lifting a hatch out, or not being able to fit through the opening, however small the likelihood of an incident occurring. Only the airlines/check-in agents rigidly enforcing the rules can really help me with this!

I agree though, emergency exit seats should probably no longer be sold for commercial gain, but pax selected at check-in as being fit for purpose, or, of the rows are empty, selected by CC and moved from other seats once boarding is complete.

[radeng]

On one occasion, my travel agent thought they'd done me favour by getting me in the exit row on an American flight. As I walk with a stick, they weren't too impressed when I told them to change it...
Newswatcher, good luck with your bags. Mrs Radeng's experience with BA's bag tracing was horrible, it being staffed by liars and idiots! In her case, it took a week......

[10secondsurvey]

I've experienced the 'fat bloke' at an overwing exit several times over recent years. In one case, in order for him to get through the overwing exit, he would have needed to be 'vaselined up' and squeezed through.

I'm just wondering, with the advent of super cramped seating, if some check in staff deliberately seat really fat people at overwing exits. This means pax can fit in the seat, but of course they would never be able to get out the overwing exit.

I also often see relatively frail people sitiing in overwing exits, and I really doubt if they would be able to pull out the hatch (they are much heavier than most people think), and throw it out.

The problem with allocation at check in of course is that often people use machines, and with many airlines, the overwing exits don't show.

[allthatglitters]

A local budget airline, (that has a roar), emergency exit rows are avail at extra cost, due to the longer leg room.

[WHBM]

Surely the best people to allocate to the exit rows are crew, on or off duty. There seem to be a few on most flights.

Then some way for established members of the airline's FF scheme. This could include some little prequalification, which might include pointing out that if you read your newspaper through the safety briefing even once you are off the programme.

For all that we take the p1ss out of Ryanair they were one of the few (before they moved entirely to a fleet without throwable exits) who placarded their emergency exits with the weight (around 50lb), and are still one of the minority who placard about checking for fire first before opening the exit.

I would presume that a carrier's complete procedures for checking that exit row pax are suitable, and how compliance with these procedures is ensured, must be documented in their AOC somewhere. Is this an opportunity for the CAA to weed out those commercial numbskulls who think exit rows are a supplementary revenue opportunity ?

[perkin]

Then some way for established members of the airline's FF scheme. This could include some little prequalification

I believe KLM used to offer its FF members the opportunity to practise opening an emerg exit hatch and sliding down a slide.

[WHBM]

I believe KLM used to offer its FF members the opportunity to practise opening an emerg exit hatch and sliding down a slide.
The difficulty with this is that you do get a small proportion of injuries when using the slide. It's one of the things you have to accept when training crews but for pax there would be the risk of lawsuits etc, as it is a known issue.

The skill actually required of the exit-row passenger is anyway not so much using the slide as identifying the need for an escape, opening the exit and getting up from your seat and out through the exit very quickly so others can follow.

[PAXboy]

WHBMSurely the best people to allocate to the exit rows are crew, on or off duty. There seem to be a few on most flights. Then some way for established members of the airline's FF scheme. This could include some little prequalification, which might include pointing out that if you read your newspaper through the safety briefing even once you are off the programme.With this and your later post about KLM training, you have hit a particular topic that raged through this 'cabin' (intentional use of uncomfortable analogy!) only a couple of months ago. It was all about the additional knowledge that FFs may have, as opposed to FC that are deadheading/holiday when faced with an emergency.

For my part, the previous system of allocation by check in agent who has the person standing in front of them and then verified by the CC whilst briefing them - worked. The fact that it was changed to make money and to be 'nice' to some pax is wrong from beginning to end. Avoidable deaths will follow. Why do I say that? Because that is what human beings do. We save money and then people die. :(

[perkin]

The difficulty with this is that you do get a small proportion of injuries when using the slide

As far as I'm aware this was no different to any other 'experience' day so presumably one would sign waivers to accept what you were doing carried a risk...

The skill actually required of the exit-row passenger is anyway not so much using the slide as identifying the need for an escape

I don't think the KLM FF was training as such, more of an opportunity for their more loyal pax to experience what is essentially part of any cabin or flight crews training. Obviously it has benefits that someone will be just a little bit more familiar should something untoward happen. I seem to recall that pax who had completed this litte day out had first call on exit seats as a result...

[lexxity]

I think it is far more sensible to sit off duty crew in these seats. I know I always allocate them to crew where possible. I'm ground staff, but have also been moved up into these seats once onboard.

[bealine]

I would agree, lexxity, that airline staff, providing they are fit and healthy themselves, are desireable exit seat holders - unless they are crew returning home knackered after duty (who just want to close their eyes and drift away for a wee while!)

With commuting crew who I am considering for exit seats, I always ask them if that's what they would like as they will decline if they are not feeling like staying alert and focussed!

Continental's Domestic 737's have the right idea - a red notice on the overwing exit states "This door weighs 45 pounds. If you are unable to lift this weight over your head please inform the flight attendants now!" At least their customers are made aware of what responsibility holding an exit seat might entail!

I'm afraid, here in the UK, we seem to have a flippant disregard for what exit seating is all about - just considering it for legroom!

A person travelling with family seated elsewhere on the aircraft isn't supposed to have exit seating either - for the obvious reason that their first responsibility will be for family and not the other passengers!

[newswatcher]

Mike J, would be interested to know how you got emergency exit seats during online check-in with BA. Every time I try, it has them greyed-out as unavailable. :confused:

Radeng, bags arrived on the Monday evening, so only without them for 36 hours. Driver said that I was the 12th drop-off that evening! Next time I will reclaim bags at Dulles and check them in again for the next leg!

[Leezyjet]

extra legroom afforded by a bulkhead seat is considered necessary.

On most airlines it is actually a myth that the bulkheads have extra leg room, infact they do not. I have sat in quite a few on most a/c types on a fair few airlines and there is more room to stretch your legs in a normal seat. In a bulkhead row you loose the opportunity to stick your legs under the seat infront because of the solid wall which when you have long legs is very uncomfortable on a long flight. Combined with the fact that bulkhead seats have solid armrests containing the tray table, you also loose some of the width too. The only positive you gain is not having someones seat reclined in your face for 12 hours so you have more space infront of you at chest/head height which only comes in useful when your going to the lav.
Of course on an exit row you do get the extra leg room to be able to stretch out, well unless it is a window on the 747 !!.

yet virtually every KLM flight I've been on, the crew has allowed some breach of regulations (reclined seat at TO, headphones in, window blind closed, un-able pax in exit row etc).

Was that right? In their eyes yes, but reaslistically?

All it takes is a quick letter or email to the relevent countries CAA with details of the airline, flight number, date, route, a/c reg if poss. The crew can easily be traced from that info. A friend of mine was travelling on Southwest in the US and the crew let fat people sit in the exit rows as well as letting those people leave their hand luggage on the floor. Once back in the UK, he emailed the FAA with the full details and they replied thanking him for informing them and said they would be conducting an investigation. Even a letter to the airline management should do the trick.

a competent crew who had ensured they had the right sort of pax sat there.

If they had invested in a competant f/deck crew then the a/c would never have been in that situation in the first place, but thats another discussion. I will never ever set foot on an Air France aircraft unless it is in a museum. They have far too many accidents far too often for my liking.

AF A340 at Toronto is a prime example WHBM.

Comparing the exits on a widebodied a/c like the A340 with the over wings on a 737 is like compaing a Smart car with a bus. The e/exits on an A340 and most other modern widebodies designed in the late 80's/early 90's onward have full height exits that open outwards rather than the heavy little plug doors that fall in on your lap like the older 737's/A320's have. So one would have to be extremely large to block one of those exits - so large infact they probably couldn't have got on the a/c in the first place !!.

would be interested to know how you got emergency exit seats during online check-in with BA.

I've had e/exit seats a few times from BA online check-in, although they were on s/haul flights. Don't recommend the ones on the 737-400 out of LGW as it was blooming freezing !!. Sat in a regular seat on the flight home, and leg room was more than ample for my 6'1" frame and alot warmer too !!.

:E