Flybe Embaer 145 Aircraft Trim ??

[BrummyGit]

Please can anyone explain a little about Trim on the Embraer 145?

After BA Connect sold to Flybe they started loading everyone at the back of the aircraft stating that it was required for the "Trim of the Aircraft". The front could be empty with say 15 out of 18 pax filling the back rows.

They have relented more recently but yesterday I flew STR to BHX. The flight was at least 75% full I would guess and I was seated in 4A. I was asked to move to 13C for the trim of the aircraft, but eventually put in row 17 as this was empty and row 13 already had 2 pax and 1 seat spare. I obviously moved without question or complaint but some things puzzle me:


I was the only pax to be moved. Now I accept I could do with a diet but does 1 person really make such a difference on an aircraft weighing so much?
If 1 person makes such a difference why was it OK to sit in 17C instead of 13C or was it just to move me behind the centre point?
Why didn't BA do it on the same aircraft?
Why do Flybe sometimes leave the catering behind blaming a full(ish) flight for needing to save weight - I remember BA offering full service on these a/c when 100% full
I had pre-paid for an allocated seat with Flybe - why couldn't they just move a passenger who hadn't pre-paid instead of hitting on one who paid to choose his seat?
I guess that the trim is to get the weight balance (front to back) to enable a smooth and controlled rotation - could I have just moved back to my original seat after take-off?Thanks for any enlightenment.

[PAXboy]

I am sure a professional will be along shortly as these kind of questions are asked once or twice a year on smaller a/c.

One possible reason could be to do with carrying any freight. Now, I think that the smaller machines do not so often carry freight but that would certainly affect the trim. So I shall be as interested as you to hear the reply!

[bermudatriangle]

mickey mouse aircraft,operating for a mickey mouse airline....what do you expect ? pay the minimum and just take what you get...thats all you can expect.

[Avman]

Yes, you can move back to your original seat after take-off and the F/A should have told you this. I, like yourself, NEVER experienced this with BA (Connect/Regional), no matter what the load was.

[Chesty Morgan]

I don't fly this type but I've heard it's to do with the different catering loads Flybe puts on the aircraft. More or less at the front or the rear!

[lexxity]

mickey mouse aircraft,operating for a mickey mouse airline....what do you expect ? pay the minimum and just take what you get...thats all you can expect.

What, stupid comments?

We (bmi) sometimes have to move pax back for trim on the ERJs, but obviously once you are up then, yes you can move back to your original seat. Catering does make a difference with regards to the number of trollies loaded onboard as does the number of bags checked in. We often have trim problems on our Edinburghs as so few pax check bags so then when we are quiet (which is almost never) we have to seat the pax back to front. I'm not an a/c dispatcher so I hope this helps explain why you were moved.

[Maude Charlee]

The Barbie jet can be trim sensitive with certain pax loads and small amounts of hold baggage. I used to dispatch the AF Regional 145, and at times it could be tricky to get a safe trim position, and very often pax were required to move seats.

As far as retaking your original seat after take-off, not advisable without checking with the flight deck, as it may very well be that the trim is also out of limits for landing. I can't remember the exact bay splits for seating on the Barbie jet, but it may be that you were unlucky in being the only passenger in the most forward bay, and therefore that would explain why you were asked to move and not somebody else. You would also be correct in your assumption that row 17 would be acceptable as it moves the trim even further aft than row 13, and row 13 may have been the first acceptable row into which you were required to move.

[PAXboy]

can't deliver the comfort the pax expects
Huh? Did the pax have to stand up for the flight? Did the pax have to be squashed under the seat???? :rolleyes:

The pax might have had slight inconvenience but small a/c can have this problem as can mid-size. I have been on 734 flights when some of the front rows have been closed due to a light load and setting the trim.

It looks as if FlyBe should increase the information they provide at booking and embarkation but other comments are just designed to provoke.

[BrummyGit]

Thanks for the constructive and helpful replies :ok:

I would like to state that my intention was not to run down FlyBe (as they really do seem to be improving after the BA Connect takeover) or the Embraer 145. I actually like the 145 as although quite cramped and wind noisey, I like the single seat on the LHS and for short hops it is adequately comfortable with a good seat pitch.

I also moved without question or complaint as I understand that the crews had a job to do and safety must be 1st priority - especially for me as a frequent yet uneasy pax.

I am simply amazed at how little weight required shifting when just 1 x 14 stones PAX is all that is needed, and why when rows 3, 4, 5 and six were full was it me selected in 4A to move? And just maybe why Flybe couldn't check who'd paid extra to select their preferred seat.

I am also interested to know how BA and Flybe differ in their operation of the aircraft to require different procedures. BA allowed all pax to pre-select their seats via electronic check-in methods yet Flybe select for the PAX yet seem to need to be more rigid and require fine tuning on departure. Also why Flybe sometimes leave off the catering for weight reasons but BA (maersk) always had a full cabin service for all pax.

I pax on these often enough to have seen this on light, med and heavy passenger loads and have also had conversations with other pax who have noted the changes with Flybe.

I'm simply interested.

[Final 3 Greens]

What, stupid comments?

Well my one and only experience with Flybe was mickey mouse and I won;t be using the airline again.

I thought the service on the ground and in the air was rubbish and I paid £600 for a one way ticket.

[AviationNE]

HI from what i am led to believe Flybe put all the days catering on in one go. This increeases what at the front whereas BA Put minimum amounts adn restocked after every trip. If this aircraft is full with flybe you have to put the catering in the Rear Hold to get it into trim as you cant move any pax. It still asks the question why did embraer design an aircraft that is almost impossible to trim when Fully Loaded.

[100above]

The trim issues with the flybe 145s are two-fold. The flybe catering weighs more than the BA stuff did, which is why sometimes the gift cart ends up in the hold and even more rarely all the catering is offloaded. The second issue is that as flybe charge for hold baggage, less bags go in the hold than before, making the aircraft more nose heavy. The 145 has always been trim sensitive (which is why when BRAL and Brymon merged the 50th seat at the very front of the Brymon aircraft was removed) , but there are plans in place to reduce weight in the galley by removing 2 of the 3 ovens as flybe dont sell hot food and that should help the situation.

[BrummyGit]

I guess that's why they never use seat 2a anymore too then.

[Maude Charlee]

Brummy,

As far as the whole 'who paid for their seats and who didn't' question, you need to remember that the people dealing with the aircraft trim and therefore the moving of passengers, are not Flybe, but their ground handling agent. It's very unlikely that the dispatcher dealing with the flight has any access to, or any interest in, the pre-payment information. Their job is simply to get the flight sent out on time with the minimum fuss. The computerised system used for producing the loadsheet, is not necessarily the same system used for checking in passengers, and the passenger handling team and dispatch team have fairly limited contact (at least in my experience).

[Final 3 Greens]

It's very unlikely that the dispatcher dealing with the flight has any access to, or any interest in, the pre-payment information

That's all well and good, but if you seriously annoy people by charging for a service and then failing to provide it, an airline will lose a lot of customers.

I paid (through the nose) for a service with Flybe and their agents didn't deliver it, not did the CC on the aircraft.

Do you think I care who dropped the ball?

I just won't use Flybe again and as a pax who takes 110-110 flights per year, usually at business class fares, the airline is missing out.

Also, I take every opportunity to alert other pax I know to avoid this outfit.

[Haven't a clue]

Wonder how much of the catering is dumped at the end of the day, and whether much is actually sold off the gift cart? Why bother load the catering in one go given the lenthy turnaround times compared to FR?

There seems to be no sense in this - FF pax usually want to sit at the front of the plane (I'm one of them) in the mistaken belief that they will get to where they are going earlier. FF pax are often paying premium prices (Economy Plus) or are paying the extra for their seat. If they don't get what they paid for (and I know there are a host of disclaimers on the booking website to cover the airline's ar*e) they will go elsewhere, as FTG says.

To fail to plan the TOTAL service delivery in this way is madness.

Incidently I suspect the problem is not limited to the E145. The girls on the Q400 go round the aircraft with a little pad and mark up how many pax are sitting in each sector in the a/c. Presumably moves will have to be made if the weight and balance is out of limits. We never had this problem on the trusty 146!

[Maude Charlee]

Lengthy turnaround compared to FR? What?

Last time I checked, 25 mins for a turnaround with FR, 25 mins for a turnaround with Flybe as standard. Very occassionally, a 40 min turnaround will be allocated on the longer crew duty days to allow meal breaks at Flybe (we all know FR crews will be taken out and shot for doing anything so silly). Couldn't tell you what arrangements were in place during the BA days, but given the general level of horror at their new schedules, I would wager it was a bit more leisurely.

I guess you super-important business folk would much rather see the flight delayed whilst everybody checks through the ticketing arrangements to ensure none of you terribly important chaps are moved from your seats and that the plebs are shifted instead. Yep, that would be a great solution to all concerned - delay 49 pax so one can keep his/her seat, which incidentally happens to be absolutely identical to all the other seats on board. :rolleyes:

And you're right. Only problem on the 146 was wondering whether or not you'd reach your destination with or without the random gassings. :}

[PAXboy]

MCIt's very unlikely that the dispatcher dealing with the flight has any access to, or any interest in, the pre-payment information.And there is the same mistake that dozens of companies (in all lines of business) are making. The separation of services, the out-sourcing, the breaking of the line of responsibility - all lead to a loss of service.

It may take a few more years before we have settled into the majority of carriers that do as little as possible and carry the most pax and those that stick to the niche market and carry a few pax. I have no grievance about this and agree with F3G that the only problem is those that profess/advertise the full deal and do not deliver. Again, I see this in many walks of life and it is a very tiresome phase we are going through.

One simple example: Last year, a company that I had bought shoes from (mail order) for some ten years advertised in their catalogue that for the second year running they had kept prices down and yet maintained the quality. I doubted it but, based on long satisfaction, I bought a replacement pair. They were terrible and I told them so and no longer buy anything from them and tell my friends to be very careful of this company.

They could have raised prices a bit and maintained quality or they could have had a budget priced and a premium priced product but they chose to tell lies and that tends to irritate customers.

[Not saying Flybe told lies in this case, only that they failed to deliver for the customer in question]

[AviationNE]

IN my experience the Q400 is checked in according to planned loads to make sure trim is correct. The cabin crew count is to confirm that the passengers are sitting as it says on the Loadsheet as a safeguard. On the rare occasion we do move passengers it is done at the Gate and we try to only move passengers who havent paid for their seat.

[Final 3 Greens]

I guess you super-important business folk would much rather see the flight delayed whilst everybody checks through the ticketing arrangements to ensure none of you terribly important chaps are moved from your seats and that the plebs are shifted instead.

Well it would be a start if the company could actually provide the lounge access and refreshments that were included in the ticket tariff.

But perhaps that is asking too much for £600?

And at £600 per shot, I would say that we are pretty important, wouldn't you?

All animals are equal, but some are more equal.

[Dropline]

Maude Charlee is correct. As a dispatcher, I do not have access to the reservations system to see who has paid what for their ticket. All I will know is that for the aircraft to be in trim and fly safely, I need to move a certain number of people from one area of the cabin to another. It could be one person, it could be 10 or more, depending on the size of the aircraft and how bad the trim problem is.

On a 30 minute turnaround I simply do not have time to worry about who I am moving, I just have to make a quick decision and get the gate staff or cabin crew to action it while I produce my loadsheet. I will try not to separate people I know are travelling together, and I will never move disabled passengers, who often have to have specific seats anyway. Apart from that I really don't consider anything else, and I will simply say to the gate staff or crew "I need to move some passengers for trim, can you please move row 4 to row 13" My only concern is the safety of the aircraft, and I'm sorry, but I really don't care who has paid what for their seat.

Brummy, if the dispatcher needed to move one person, they would look for a passenger travelling alone to move, rather than move one of a couple or one of a family. If you were the first single passenger on the list, then you would have been the one chosen to be moved. Who you are or what you paid doesn't come into it I'm afraid - the seats are all the same so what's your problem? 4a might be your favourite seat, but I'm sure it's no different to any another seat on the aircraft. At the end of the day, safety has to come first.

I find that passengers being allowed to chose their own seats actually causes more trim problems than the old days when all seats were assigned at check in. Then if you had a flight with a low booked load you could block seats off in advance and thus ensure no-one had to be moved on board. Unfortunately the people who come up with these clever ideas about passengers selecting their own seats don't think about the effect this might have on the aircraft trim... It's just another way to save or make money and that's all that seems to matter these days.

[BrummyGit]

Brummy, if the dispatcher needed to move one person, they would look for a passenger travelling alone to move, rather than move one of a couple or one of a family. If you were the first single passenger on the list, then you would have been the one chosen to be moved. Who you are or what you paid doesn't come into it I'm afraid - the seats are all the same so what's your problem? 4a might be your favourite seat, but I'm sure it's no different to any another seat on the aircraft. At the end of the day, safety has to come first.


I have tried to make it clear that I have no objection to being moved for the safety of the aircraft and of course the whole flight should not be inconvenienced for my benefit, however I was trying to understand the logic. The 145 has single seats down the LHS so why were the people on their own in 3a and 5a left alone and me in 4a selected - surely 3a would have made a bigger difference to the trim.

I'm afraid that the seats are not all the same - I paid extra to choose a single seat on my own for my comfort and was initially asked to move to 13c alongside a rather large pax in less than spacious double seating. BUT my main reason for selecting my seat is that sadly whilst I fly most weeks I am also a nervous flyer. I feel much better sitting near to the emergency exits and find that the movement of the aircraft towards the front is far less intrusive than at the rear. I know these are my issues, and I also know the facts about flight safety, but I choose to pay to sit near the front as part of my method of dealing with my irrational fear of flying. So being sat in the back row nowhere near an exit (I guess I may be mildly claustrophobic too) is my idea of hell - and my state of nervousness during the flight was influenced by this. I accept this is my problem, but Flybe are quite happy to take my money when I try to find a strategy to deal with it.

I would also agree with previous comments that customer service is a factor in choosing who to fly with. And that those airlines that do implement systems to recognise those of us who paid £600 a shot to fly short haul in Europe and then stump up extra to choose a specific seat will reap the benefits of being a preferred choice. I have no issue with the despatcher who does not have the info available, but good customer service does bring customer loyalty. It sounds as if you have the information on who is disabled and who is travelling in a group, therefore if Flybe printed a marker on the passenger list that indicated to you which pax they would prefer not to be moved unless necessary it might just improve the pax experience for those who paid more to choose a specific seat. Remember that Flybe choose to sell the option for this.

However I fully agree that safety comes first, and repeat that I did not complain, moan or believe that I am entitled to preferential treatment.

[fescalised portion]

I fly the EMB 135,140 and 145 in the USA. The aircraft is very pitch sensitive and it is a very common occurance to have to ask passengers to move seats after they have boarded, usually to offset some extra cargo that has been loaded or because somebody has screwed up the figures. Just moving one or two passengers can really make a difference to weight and balance. This aircraft is a beast to get off of the ground if it has been loaded incorrectly and is nose-heavy. It also doesn't behave too well on landing, so if someone asks you to move seats, don't question it. They are asking you for a reason.

[BrummyGit]

I fly the EMB 135,140 and 145 in the USA. The aircraft is very pitch sensitive and it is a very common occurance to have to ask passengers to move seats after they have boarded, usually to offset some extra cargo that has been loaded or because somebody has screwed up the figures. Just moving one or two passengers can really make a difference to weight and balance. This aircraft is a beast to get off of the ground if it has been loaded incorrectly and is nose-heavy. It also doesn't behave too well on landing, so if someone asks you to move seats, don't question it. They are asking you for a reason.


Thanks for your post which has given me a good insight - as a mere SLF it seems incredible that moving 1 person can have such a dramatic effect on the trim of such a heavy object which is lifting it's own weight into the air.

Please let me repeat that I would never question being asked to move - it is obvious that you wouldn't ask without reason. Although I'm sure there are many pax that would.

[Dropline]

Brummy

I wasn't the person who moved you, so i can't explain why you specifically were chosen rather than someone in row 3 or row 5. It may have been that the person sitting in 3a was actually travelling with the person in 3b. Or as it seems you are a frequent traveller, maybe the crew recognised you and thought you wouldn't mind? As I said before, we really don't have the time to go into things that deeply, we just take the quickest and easiest option on the day to try and avoid a delay. And strange as it may sound, moving just one person can make the difference between the aircraft being in or out of trim. Generally speaking, the smaller the aircraft, the more trim sensitive it is.

With regards to the difference between BA and Flybe, I know that the two airlines use different computer systems, and it may well have been the case that the BA dispatcher could monitor their flight and block seats off during check in if the aircraft looked like going out of trim. With Flybe we don't have this option as we can't access the reservations and checkin system. All we get are the final figures at closure and only then can we see if the aircraft is going to trim or not. That's why we end up having to move people around at the last minute, especially if there is not much hold baggage or freight to move instead.

However I would also like to say that if you had been one of my passengers, and had politely explained to me your reasons for wanting to be sat at the front, I personally would probably have tried to move someone else instead, especially if there were other pax in the same row. I would always prefer to seat a nervous passenger somewhere they felt as comfortable as possible, rather than try and make their journey even more stressful.

Hopefully once flybe sort their catering weights and distribution out the problem will be resolved and you won't have to be moved again!

Hope this answers the rest of your questions.

[J-Man]

E145 is nose heavy from what i was told. If a flight wasnt full, most or all of the front rows were blocked off, and we were told to seat from the back.

[BrummyGit]

Dropline:

Thanks, you have indeed answered my questions very well. I did not question being moved as I understood it was for a reason and as you rightly guessed I travel frequently so it just made my journey a little more stressful rather than unbearable - therefore I didn't feel it justified.

I also learned more about the different IT systems in use today as I checked-in in Stuttgart this evening. The check-in agent had problems with her computer and told me that they were using the KLM check-in system. So now I know why you have such trouble joining some of the information together.

Thanks again

BG

[Geoff44]

I can confirm that when BA dispatched the Embraer 145 it was monitored to keep it in trim. The aircraft is very nose heavy and it was normal for seats to be blocked off at the front of the aircraft. If it was a flight with plenty of hold luggage not normally a problem as the only hold is at the rear of the aircraft. On a flight to Glasgow or Edinburgh with many pax only going for one day with no hold baggage that would be a instance when seat blocking would be used. If at close out flight out of trim only options are to move pax from front to back or to load ballast in rear hold.
The trim on this aircraft is so critical that moving one pax is often sufficient.