British Caledonian - What if ??

[The AvgasDinosaur]

What if British Caledonian had stayed independent?
Given that they had Airbus A-310s in service and had ordered A-320s and had a mix of DC-10 and Boeing 747s for long haul would they have gone Boeing 747-400 and or MD-11 or would they have gone to Airbus 330/340? Any comments or speculation welcome.
I understand that at least one A-320 was flown in full colours on a French test reg but have been unable to trace a photograph any clues appreciated. It would have become G-BRSA I think.
Thanks in anticipation,
Be lucky
David

[treadigraph]

First A320 was G-BUSB, delivered in Spring 1988. Accroding to Wiki twas in BA livery, funny 'cos I'm sure I remember seeing one at Gatwick in BR colours, but I guess it was nearly 20 yearsa go... Maybe I'm thinking of the A310s...

[bjones4]

http://bjones4.com/temp/bcal_a320_1.jpg

http://bjones4.com/temp/bcal_a320_2.jpg

BCals two aircraft were to be,

MSN6 ex F-WWDD > G-BRSA (G-BUSB)
MSN8 ex F-WWDE > G-BRSB (G-BUSC)

The aircraft pictured however is F-WWDA (MSN2) which was never destined for
BCal, it was wetleased from Airbus temporarily to take part in a marketing effort.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Never underestimate the talent and depth of knowledge on here.
Amazing response thank you. bjones4
Just been doing some more research BCAL had ordered 3 MD-11s c/n 48419, 48420 and 48421, which nominally passed to BA before being taken up by American Airlines. Somewhat surprisingly BCAL also ordered but did not take delivery of two Boeing 737-299s c/n 20090 and 20091 which were not built.
I wish I knew a photoshop artisan:eek: How do they do it ??
Be lucky
David

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I loved that colour scheme, The Aircraft detail looked spot -on!!:ok:

Just a shame they went like DA AE etc.:sad:

A B Cal 777 would look lovely in that colour scheme:D

I keep looking on E-Bay for B Cal items.

I never saw the 747's, But remember the 10's.

Cheers Avgas for the research.:ok:

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote by ByAlphaIndia
I never saw the 747's, But remember the 10's.
Cheers Avgas for the research.
Not my research bjones4 found the airbus 320, thank you once again:D
Heres a reminder of the B.747s
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1135718/L/ with 1-11 bonus
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1057264/L/ with DC-10 bonus
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0270082/L/ with B.747 and DC-10 bonus
No apologies for this one the creme del la creme http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0351519/L/
and a glimpse of what might have been http://www.jersey-airport.fotopic.net/p43120981.html the first of how many ?
Be lucky
David

[The SSK]

BYALPHAINDIA - I've got a BCal tie and cufflinks which I've been meaning to put on ebay, watch this space.

My last flight on BCal was on the curious 747 operation Brussels-Gatwick-transatlantic, with half BCal and half Sabena cabin crew. Anybody remember that?

And before BCal - as a sprog spotter in 1964 I spent a week lodging with the BUA Personnel Director, a friend of an uncle of mine. He had a house in Lowfield Heath, with the LGW runway at the bottom of the garden. Thanks to him I was able to watch the first-ever touchdown at LGW of a BUA VC10 (G-ASIW?) at a distance of about 100 metres from the point of contact. Apart from a Lockheed Jetstar, it was the only jet I saw there all week.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote The SSK
- I've got a BCal tie and cufflinks which I've been meaning to put on ebay, watch this space.
I might just have to have a nibble myself, at least for the tie.
Quote The SSK
as a sprog spotter in 1964 I spent a week lodging with the BUA Personnel Director, a friend of an uncle of mine. He had a house in Lowfield Heath, with the LGW runway at the bottom of the garden. Thanks to him I was able to watch the first-ever touchdown at LGW of a BUA VC10 (G-ASIW?) at a distance of about 100 metres from the point of contact. Apart from a Lockheed Jetstar, it was the only jet I saw there all week.
We couldn't possibly be lucky enough to have a sprog spotter (1964 vintage) with a camera in our midst ? :ooh:
What joy if it were true.:ok:
Be lucky
David

[Tootles the Taxi]

Interestingly, G-BUSC was delivered last Wed to KGYR following completion of service with BA. Will she survive the breakers axe?.....

[WHBM]

At the time of the B.Cal takeover there was a spat between BA and Airbus over who would bear the cost of repainting the aircraft built and painted but not delivered.

If B.Cal had survived it would have beaten all the other Gatwick-based scheduled service attempters (from Laker to GB). Simplistically, the airport doesn't work for such operations without the market being skewed (as it was for much of B.Cal's era).

At least they escaped losing more money on the MD-11s.

[Doors to Automatic]

I'm sure they would have had a new livery by now.

Anyone who's a dab hand with photoshop care to have a bash? :p

[chiglet]

I flew from Gatwick to Payar Lebar in 1964, on a DC7C :ok:
watp, iktch

[The SSK]

The AvgasDinosaur: We couldn't possibly be lucky enough to have a sprog spotter (1964 vintage) with a camera in our midst ?
What joy if it were true.

I did have a camera at the time, although I used it very little and the resulting pictures have long since disappeared. The only one I remember was a rather fine shot of a Flying Tigers Connie on the apron in front of the hangars, which I would walk past every day on my way to and from the terminal.

Apart from the ubiquitous BUA Viscounts, the airport was DC6 city with a dozen or so European charter operators plying their trade, their US counterparts (Saturn, etc) were more into DC7s.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<My last flight on BCal was on the curious 747 operation Brussels-Gatwick-transatlantic, with half BCal and half Sabena cabin crew. Anybody remember that?>>

Oh yes... I travelled with my family from Gatwick to Atlanta and it remains the most utterly, appallingly dreadful flight we have ever been on - thanks wholly to the miserable cabin crew and the awful food. On arrival in Atlanta we changed to a DC8 of a US airline for the 45 minute ride to Miami during which they served a full steak dinner, etc. The difference between the two was amazing and we vowed never to fly BCAL again.

[TSR2]

Back in the mid eighties I travelled from Gatwick to Houston once a month for almost two years on a BCal DC10. It was nearly always the same aircraft ....... how did I know? ......... it had a only registration I ever remembered ..... G-DCIO.

[LysanderV8]

ByAlphaIndia

Check your PMs

Lysander

[bbrown1664]

As a young engineering apprentice with BCal at the time of the BA takeover (they called it a merger), I can confirm we did have at least one A320 in the fleet. MD-11's were on order, I had actually ben over to Longbeach to see the production line not long before the BA deal was struck.

If BCal had managed to stay afloat by themselves, remember we were in talks with SAS just before as well, chances are they would have gone with the MD11 and 744 but knowing them, would have had their name down as a launch customer for the A380 as well.

[primreamer]

bbrown1664, which years apprentice intake were you? PM me if you like.

To those of you talking about BCal memorabalia, items do appear from time to time on E-bay and the "Caledonian Girls" TV ad is on You Tube somewhere.

[alright jack]

I won £25 in the Company suggestion scheme for Suggesting the registration G-DCIO............Twas along time ago , can't remember what I spent it on ............... !:uhoh:

[bbrown1664]

I started as an apprentice in 1984 and was in my fourth year when we "merged" with BA.

[irishair2001]

:ok:

Remember seeing an artists impression somewhere of a proposed new colour scheme for BCAL and it was the Benehone Tartan scheme later used as one of the BA world tails,I also remember one of their last advertising slogans "Because we dont forget you have a choice" loved the original Caledonian scheme on the Brittania and DC-7

[tornadoken]

British Caledonian Airways provided the new name of the merged entity, dropping just one word. The responsible Minister, N.Ridley,P.76, Memoirs, described (allowing) the takeover as "wrong". 7% of BA's revenue had been assigned by Govt. to give the Second Force a fighting chance (W.Africa, S.Africa, Houston). Lord King was then tasked to take British Aeroflot off the taxpayers' cud, needed revenue growth to dilute his unit costs, so made the shipping owners an irresistible offer, with taxpayers' money. Find Adam Thomson's High Risk. If that offer had not been made by BA, such that BR had still been active at Gulf War 1, then one of BR, VS, BD would have expired in the downturn.

[No longer ATC]

Think you mean "We never forget you have a choice"......still got my tartan gear in the loft somewhere......

[nivsy]

I remember when as a teenager I got to the flight deck courtesy of BCAL en-route LGW-GLA on "baby" BAC 1-11 (G-ASJF). Flight crew just let me stand between the two seats with headphones on drinking coke supplied by a tartan "lush" who popped in every now and again to see how I was. Stood there as happy as could be as we intercepted the ILS at GLA then I was promptly planked on jump seat, strapped up and landed up front. God, these were fun times!:)


Nivsy

[Cool Wavy NG738]

British Caledonian would probably have continued to have been one of the finest airlines in the world.

I have very fond memories of being a 5yr old in 1971 flying on one of their relatively new Boeing 707s on an affinity charter from Gatwick to New York and back. I also remember their first commercials on TV "let's go, let's go British Caledonian" as they merged with BUA.

Later on I did two or three flights on their immaculate BAC-1-11 500s G-AWYR and G-AXJK I think.

When I worked for BAF we even had a Viscount painted initially in full BCal livery complete with lion rampant for a short while. Such a smart fleet, such an airline held in high regard - sorely missed at LGW.

[Orion Man]

G-DCIO was sadly written off in Bogota a few years ago.

http://aviation-safety.net/photos/accidents/20040428-0-C-d-3-500.jpg

G-BGAT was scrapped for parts in 2002 but the rest of BCals DC10s are still flying I understand.

[merlinxx]

Where have all the NYANDLA girls gone? just could never resist that uni, especially when windy on the ramp!!!!!

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote by Orion Man
G-BGAT was scrapped for parts in 2002 but the rest of BCals DC10s are still flying I understand.
They sure are, tribute to all the TLC they got at Gatwick when mere youngsters
46921 G-BEBM stored at Marana PR-LGO ( To or From Varig Logistics)
47831 G-BHDI Arrow Air N450ML
47818 G-LYON Avient Z-ALT
46590 G-BFGI Avient Z-AVT
46949 G-BEBL Varig PP-VQY
47816 G-BHDH Centurion N279AX
47840 G-BHDJ Centurion N612GC
47888 G-MULL Centurion N47888
46932 G-NUIK Cielos del Peru N609GC
G-BGAT 46591 Scrapped Opa locka FL as N13066
G-DCIO 48277 written Off Bogota as N189AX 28/APR/04 Centurion
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20040428-0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20041027X01700&key=1
9/11 Still flyable and 8 still active.
Hope it helps
Be lucky
David
P.S. Can someone explain the significance of "NUIK" please

[The AvgasDinosaur]

They took delivery of two
295 G-BKWT current with Libyan A/L TS-IGU
306 G-BKWU current with Libyan A/L TS-IGV
G-BLPS was reserved for number three but was it c/n 370 or 400
Clarification appreciated.
Be lucky
David

[bbrown1664]

I remember when we had the Lybian apprentices at LGW. They suddenly flew home when the USofA decided to bomb Tripoli one night.

Nice to know so many of the 10's are still up and about and a shame about DCIO.

I worked as an apprentice and then in Hangar 6 from 1984-1990 and dont recall a couple of the tail numbers listed above. When was LYON and NUIK on the fleet? Am I going mad?

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote bbrown1664
I worked as an apprentice and then in Hangar 6 from 1984-1990 and dont recall a couple of the tail numbers listed above. When was LYON and NUIK on the fleet? Am I going mad?
Sorry, but only partly mad. G-LYON was not a BCAL aircraft but joined Caledonian in November 1997. However G-NUIK joined BCAL on 9/6/85 and stayed until transferred to BA on 14/04/88
Hope it helps a bit.
Sorry for my carelessness.
Be lucky
David

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Quote from primreamer
"Caledonian Girls" TV ad is on You Tube somewhere.
Where, I cant find it.
Be lucky
David

[bbrown1664]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FuuwGPxV18w

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FuuwGPxV18w

[The SSK]

I recall my office having a Caledonian Girls calendar from 1980 or 1981, it was incredibly sexy.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Found them at last,
Enjoy :ok::ok:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8q9zOUMdtg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS2Pfnr_3dA&feature=related
And this one ???
Strange mix of FS type footage but perhaps a glimps of what might have been? Can't work out if its someones imagination or an ad agency mock up.
See what you think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3fO_M6JwkM&feature=related
:confused:
Be lucky
David

[primreamer]

Avgas Dinosaur,
Don't remember NIUK having any particular significance apart from being a vacant reg when it was delivered from Air Zaire (or was it Zambian Airways?) can't remember now. BHDH was borrowed from BA for a while and also flew in Caledonian colours. Latterly Caledonian had two of their own 10's, LYON and GOKT.

[radeng]

I rate B Cal as the worst airline I've ever flown. Even worse than Empire Air. Lousy food, rude cabin crew, the back of the seat in front of me falling off, bread rolls so hard you could hurt people with them, dirty toilets and interior. That was ATL to LGW. A friend who worked in Libya always flew via Malta so that he didn't have to use them. I can't say that I shed any tears about them, only wondered why BA were daft enough to take them on!

[The AvgasDinosaur]

GOKT
Sadly G-GOKT c/n 47838 lies derelict at Greenwood Mississippi having been parted out after service with World Airways as N352WL.
Hope it helps.
Be lucky
David

[alright jack]

G-NUIK was I seem to remember the initials of the Bank or Lease Company that owned the Aircraft................:ok:

[bbrown1664]

:ok: Bells are starting to ring now.

[Curious Pax]

I'm certain NIUK stood for the leasing/finance company that financed it. My memory said something like Nisho Iwai UK, but a single hit on Google claims Nissan Investments UK.

[wouldhave]

The AvgasDinosaur

The Youtube link you pasted was a "dummy" advert for a virtual airline on Flight Simulator based on the original BCal. They designed a new livery with new planes and new routes as if the airline had continued to this day. Unfortunately (for me) this virtual airline is no longer in existance so I had to make do with loading a fleet and using one of the last BCal timetables to bring them back to my flight simulator.

[Toolman101]

bbrown1664

I remember when we had the Lybian apprentices at LGW. They suddenly flew home when the USofA decided to bomb Tripoli one night.


I also remember those apprentices. It also could have due to the killing of the policewoman outside the embassy by one of the libyan security people.

The outcome of which resulted in the A310 flight to Tripoli being detained by the libyans for some time before been released to fly back to the UK.

If I recall correctly it was met by 2 RAF fighters just outside libyan airspace and escorted back across the Med. (John H was the riding engineer on that flight):ok:

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Just revisited this thread.
Isn't it about time someone wrote a book on this remarkable airline.
We've got Court Line, Dan-Air, British Eagle, Air Ferry and Invicta (already all present and correct on my book shelves) and I'm sure others which have so far eluded my grasp.
Be lucky
David

[renfrew]

High Risk by Adam Thomson is a good read on Caledonian and BCAL.

[surely not]

What amazes me is that when you look at all the airline colour schemes being advertised on the DC10 models and other aircraft flown by BCal there aren't any adverts for the BCAL scheme which had to be one of the best of it's time!

Recent articles in Airliner World on UK airports have also shown lots of photos of Dan Air, Court Line etc yet very few of BCal. It's as if there is a censorship taking place......................

[KUMOOZ]

For those of you who are interested......
You may recall that BCAL was born out of a merger between CALEDONIAN (Sir Ad's baby) and British United.
I know that the Caledonian Airways name was rescued and survived the Thomas Cook acquisition and is now privately owned. I gather the present owner might be open to offers.

[IB4138]

CP

You are correct about G-NUIK. :ok:

[IB4138]

No mention of the two Ex-Laker DC10-10s operated in full B Cal livery before they went to CalAir, G-BJZD; G-BJZE.

Flew on both, LGW based.

[surely not]

Not quite full BCal livery. If I remember correctly they had 'BCal Charter' or similar down the side of the fuselage.

[angels]

Interesting thread in that some remember BCal with pleasure and some with raised blood pressure.

I experienced both in the same trip. I flew in a 742 (?) from Gatwick to New York with them shortly after the 'takeover'. Because the routes were being merged we had to stop at Manchester on the way where there was a delay in fuelling. That annoyed quite a few people but I was on freebie from work and wasn't complaining. The service in business was okay.

I flew back from Dallas but was delayed because the incoming was 12 hours late, a polite whinge got me upgraded to first in a DC10 (I wonder if it was the one whose demise is recorded on this thread?). I was the only pax in first and had a great time chatting with the flight crew (who all slagged BA off) and sitting up front with the drivers.

It's always sad when airlines disappear. :(

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I have just read the excellent book "It was nice to fly with friends" The story of Air Europe by Graham M. Simons. It includes some amazing details of the political chicanery behind the BA/BCAL merger and also of ILG/Air Europe's plans to buy BCAL including their proposals for the fleet renewal.
Replace 5 B747-200s and 8 DC-10s with 6 B747-400s and ten B767-300ERs A bit odd that later Air Europe went on to order MD-11s for their own long haul plans, having been solidly Boeing (737s and 757s ) from the start.
Hope it is of interest.
Be lucky
David
P.S. If anyone wants details of the book please send me a PM. To avoid the advertisement police.

[rog747]

aaaw super thread...

my first jet flight ever was in summer 1969 from gatwick to palma majorca
on G-AWZZ
Photos: Boeing 707-349C Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Caledonian-Airways/Boeing-707-349C/1029691/L/&tbl=photo_info&photo_nr=1&sok=WHERE__%28reg_%3D_%27G-AWWD%27%29_&sort=_order_by_photo_id_DESC_&prev_id=&next_id=0053971)

after flying only previously on bristol britannias to then go on this shiny new big jet for me was terrific...and sat in the jump seat for landing, was brill !

outbound the pf did a power on turn to line up then we shot down the runway at gatwick and got to palma in just over 95 mins!
was there a fuel shortage then lol.....?

coming back 2 weeks later on G-AVKA 707 flagship bonnie scotland,
Photos: Boeing 707-399C Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Caledonian-Airways/Boeing-707-399C/1194378&tbl=photo_info&photo_nr=1&sok=keyword_(%5C%27%2B%5C%22g-avka%5C%22%5C%27_IN_BOOLEAN_MODE))_&sort=_order_by_photo_id_DESC_&prev_id=&next_id=0125264)
lovely days !

also flew on all the 4 cale 1-11 500's then many of the ex-BUA ones too,
used to nip down to Tenerife TFN for the day a few times too in a 707 when i was then in the industry...
never went on a BCAL vc-10 though :(
plus did many flights on the DC-10-10's of BCA charter, (ex laker a/c)

started working at LGW in 1985 for monarch and then to see the demise was sad.

Glad someone still owns the name Caledonian Airways after the sale to Thomas Cook,
i did hear though that TCK had said in the sale brief it cannot be used as a new airline name...is that so?