AOC information

[Crieff-ite]

Looking to break into the old charter world here in the UK, initially as a one helicopter operation.
Putting everything into place and getting the company off the ground is going to be surprisingly easy as my business partner and myself have the location, contacts, money (even the spare bit for when the engine goes pop) and through our contacts we even have the customers.
What I need tho, is as much information as possible with regards to creating an AOC. I have contacted the CAA and am still waiting for all of thier documentation etc. I have read as much as is available to me so far.
How long did it take you to put it all together and for it to be accepted, 6 months, 12 months?
How much did it cost?
How many times did you have to resubmit it before it was eventually ok?
Things to avoid, things they like to see.
As much useful and helpful information as possible please, it all helps in the end.............but no piss talking please := as is some peoples want.
Thanks all
Crieff-ite

[ScrumpyLuvver]

Erm.. but no piss talking please :=

oops.. I would duck for cover now lol.. :}

[Crieff-ite]

I'll get my own back in years to come as a future employer :E:E

[helimutt]

LOL....and it'll be years before you can employ someone too. AOC? Short period of time? Never happened!

[Crieff-ite]

Helimutt
Any information of timescales etc that you do have would certainly be useful if you have them.

[Bravo73]

Looking to break into the old charter world here in the UK, initially as a one helicopter operation.


Rather than jumping straight into the deep end, have you investigated the possibility of 'piggy-backing' someone else's AOC for a while? ie operate your aircraft under the auspices of their AOC whilst you establish a foothold in the market and start making some money...

One of the major problems for small AOC operators is the number of position holders that an AOC operation needs. These extra positions can be very expensive for a small, one aircraft operation.

Incidentally, what type of aircraft is it? A VFR single or an IFR Twin?

[JimBall]

You might want a reality check before you write a real cheque........the cost of an AOC is rising. See the latest proposals from the CAA for their charges. £8900 a year + £1130 per aircraft for a SEH. That's in addition to the cost of getting someone to "write" your Ops Manual.

BTW: everyone should take a look at this link below. Some airfields will face an 88% increase in charges. And the cost of a non-AOC Rule 5 Exemption will go from £100 to £380. CAA Consultation until December 15.

See here (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1513)

[helimutt]

Now that link has some scary numbers on it. Unfortunately, I can only see GA going one way now. Basically it looks like the CAA want to price the smaller operators out.

Love to know how they justify these prices. I'm prety sure the US aviation world works just fine without these prohibitive charges.

[Bravo73]

The US system is subsidised by the state. The UK system isn't.

[helimutt]

Hey B73, does this mean an increase in costs passed on to the customer in flying schools such as a place the size you work at? Maybe the previous costs weren't too different, but not being up to speed on this sort of thing anymore, just wondered what the offshoot will be for schools.

[Bravo73]

No idea. And not sure if this directly relates to setting up a small AOC operation... :confused:


How about another thread?

[Bravo73]

Helimutt
Any information of timescales etc that you do have would certainly be useful if you have them.

Crieff-ite,

Somebody has just asked a very similar question over on the bizjets forum. It gives you a rough dea of timescales:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=297292

[Crieff-ite]

Thanks very much for all your information so far gents, just the sort of things that I need.

Bravo73
We will initially be setting up with a VFR single, trying to put everything in place to then take advantage of the spring weather when it comes around next year. There are plans for a Twin in the future.
With regards to "piggy-backing" yes, that would be the ideal situation and I'm currently contacting people as we speak but not having much luck. If you know of anyone, then I'd be grateful for thier number.

Once again, thanks all

Crieff-ite

[Crieff-ite]

Bravo73

Thanks again, was writing a reply and missed your link. Will jump over now and have a trawl.

C.

[havick]

Be careful of what information you give out to your prospective AOC holders that you could 'piggy back' as you might find that they will nestle a helicopter in on your plans before you even get up and running..

Best of luck with it all..

[Bravo73]

With regards to "piggy-backing" yes, that would be the ideal situation and I'm currently contacting people as we speak but not having much luck. If you know of anyone, then I'd be grateful for thier number.

To find someone who might be willing to help you out depends on lots of factors - aircraft type, location, forecast charter demands etc etc. However, possibly the most important factor is your 'network'. Who did you do your training with, who are you buying the aircraft off, who in the industry actually knows you? Not wishing to be too blunt but a speculative request to most AOC operators (from an unknown person) would probably be turned down.




We will initially be setting up with a VFR single, trying to put everything in place to then take advantage of the spring weather when it comes around next year. There are plans for a Twin in the future.

You don't need me to tell you how haphazard the UK weather can be - any VFR aircraft is going to be more susceptible to marginal conditions than an IFR aircraft. This is obviously going to impact on your only revenue generator.

Make sure that you have a substantial contingency fund. What would happen to your income if we have a similar summer next year? It could potentially be an absolute nightmare if you can't fly but you've still got your costs to cover.

Maybe you could try to track down other single aircraft operators to pick their brains to see how they got it to work?


I'm not saying that it can't be done (because it obviously can be.) But think long and hard before committing too many funds to the exercise. I know that you don't want people to take the p1ss but the old adage springs to mind: 'How do you make a small fortune in aviation?'


Best of luck with your endeavour. :ok:

[Xavier Dosh]

I agree with B73

He makes some valid points and piggy-backing is a nice fix in the short-term but not unreasonably we're all very precious about our AOC and who is flying under it. If you’re not known and don’t have that all important rapport with an AOC holder it may prove difficult.

I don’t want to appear cynical and I do wish you well, but your initial post seems slightly amateur and I suspect that as you learn a bit more about public transport ops / helicopter charter within the UK your funds may be better spent elsewhere.

It would be a great achievement if you do pull it off and I wish you well, genuinely.

Keep coming back here to ask more and update us on your progress.

XD

[YOP]

Having gone through the CAA hoops just over a year ago the first question I'll ask is "Who's writing your Ops Manual?"

We had great ideas of doing it in 8 months to a year and needless to say it took significantly longer than that. Ops manuals are a pain, be prepared for hours, no make that days of sitting in front of a computer tweaking and amending until you've lost the will to live.

You'll be allocated a Flight Operations Inspector (FOI) and you'll be paying for his time so use him if you've got any questions. Ours was (and is for that matter) very approachable and was a real help. There you go never thought I'd praise the CAA but I've found him to be a seriously practical and straightforward bloke who helped a lot through the protracted business of gaining that AOC.

As well as the Ops side of things don't forget the engineering aspect of whichever airframes you're going to have on your AOC. To be honest I've left that to others but it is just as frought so either you or somebody needs to stay on top of it.

With regard to operating under someone else's AOC, I know it does happen but any company worth its' salt would be very wary of someone they don't know. Having put in all the effort to get our AOC I know that I certainly wouldn't want a third party I didn't know intimately operating under our auspices and probably not even if I did.

Hope I haven't been too doom and gloom, just trying to be honest about what lies ahead. If you're willing to put in the effort it's worth it in the end and you're to be congratulated for looking to start the journey. Too many cowboys operating in the grey areas without an AOC so it's nice to see someone looking to do it all properly.

All the best with your endeavours and keep us posted how it goes.

[Crieff-ite]

Sorry for the late reply Gents, I've been up in Scotland for the last few days and only managed to fly back down yesterday.

Many thanks for all of your replies and as ever, you have all proved to be a wealth of information. I've received many names, phone numbers, CAA docs etc. I will keep you all informed in the future of how I get on, the problems I come across, pit-falls and so on.

Regards

Crieff-ite

[Martin Barclay]

Hi, know a couple of guys who are trying to set up AOC's in Scotland who might be interested in helping or working with you, many hands light work, all that stuff. I am also looking at a project to fly in the Greek islands during the summer under a UK AOC?