747 Whats the shortest rwy you landed?

[noblues]

I was looking at the NOTAMS for one of our diversion's giving an LDA of 2250m ... looking at our generic landing distances we could legally land at MLW, but feels extreemly uncomfortable.

Whats the shortest runway and your landing weight you have taken a 744 into?

[Aspen20]

I think SAA has landed at FAGG with a 744. rwy 11/29 2000m x 45m.
at 250t. I may be wrong. A 747 - 200 went in there on occasion.

[Basil]

Classic to:
St Maarten LDA 7053ft 2150m
Filton LDA 6972ft 2125m
Bournemouth 6463ft 1970m

757 on 1500m at Bahrain with wip beyond :eek:

[The Flying Pram]

Maybe not quite what you were looking for, but SAA landed a retiring 747 at Rand airport (FAGM) for permanent display at the museum there. It's only 1712 Mtrs long at an elevation of 1671 Mtrs! There is a video of it here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap_nyRzEOMI&mode=related&search=

[BOU_PAX]

The European 747 taking off from Bournemouth has been linked several times before on this site but here it is incase you've never seen it. This was after the runway extension, so BOH 08/26 was measuring a massive 2,271m by then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feGZ4l5fk4Q

This was a freezing cold wet and windy day, the flight was one of two charters by Bath Travel to JFK for XMas shopping and as you can tell, it was full to capacity....

We are lucky at BOH that we have the Qatar 747SP-21 (VP-BAT) based here so often see it going in and out.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=490778

Still look up every time it goes past :)

[EladElap]

There used to be scheduled 747 service by SAA into FAGG during the December holidays. Stopped quite a while back though. Last saw a 744 at George about 5 months back, apparently when there where Jet A1 shortages at ORTIA, one stopped on its way from FACT- to FAJS to fill up for it's long haul to EGLL.

Quite awesome to watch one of them land at FAGG with its 2000m runway...

[GlueBall]

CBG 1892m [6207'] :{

[noblues]

Interesting replies, thanks!

The generic landing data show's <1900m with Max autobrake and MLW s feasible, and considerably less using the manual braking tables.

Just feels very uncomfortable ..

Anyone used Max Auotbrake on the 744? I've only used 4 but would imagine Max is like dropping an anchor?

(PS : Yeah ... CBG/Cambridge UK @ 1892m ... but would imagine at just over ZFW not up to MLW ... mostly 747's in there are for re-fits at Marshalls).

[18-Wheeler]

The generic landing data show's <1900m with Max autobrake and MLW s feasible

.... and if you have steel brakes, then you'll be needing to get the aeroplane off the runway ASAP as all 16 tyres will blow their fuse plugs.
The services would also be a good idea.
Not sure about carbon brakes but I think they don't radiate as much heat ... ?

[upandoffmyside]

Wasn't there a Saudi Air Force 747 who mis-identified an airfield in India a few years ago and ended up landing on something a bit similar to Guernsey's massive 1400m ?
I seem to recall the plan was to remove as much as possible from it to then get it out ....?

[parabellum]

Yes, the Saudia mistook a military field near Chennai.

[tail wheel]

A couple of years ago Qantas retired a 742 to Longreach for the Qantas Founders Museum. RW 04/22 dimensions 1,936/30 m, ELEV 191 m. It was probably an ISA+20 day - no problem with the length but turning the aircraft around took more than an hour!

More recently Qantas first 707-238 also retired to Longreach.

[enicalyth]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/enicalyth/Easy-Peasy.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/enicalyth/Noproblem364TPL2hrsfuel.jpg

Sometimes if you miss your turning it spoils your entire day. 36.4 tonnes payload, contingency plus 2hrs, landing into 15kts at ISA+15

That's me without a tinnie in my hand.

[mutt]

I seem to recall the plan was to remove as much as possible from it to then get it out ....?

The runway was too short to takeoff from, so they had to remove the interior to use the airports 2nd (longer) runway.

Mutt

[BelArgUSA]

1992 / Flew in and out of KSBA Santa Barbara, California with a 747-257 for maintenance C check and paint, a ACMI contract to Saudia by Air Atlanta. Runway was 5,900 feet long, sea level, light wind. I remember I stopped easy within 2/3rds of runway. Based on this, I would say ok to go to a 5,000 feet-long runway. Of course plane was empty and minimum fuel. Incidentally, we flew out of there with enough fuel to Newburgh, NY (4.5 hrs flight) on our way to Jeddah, again no payload.
xxx
At light weight, flaps 30, a 747-200 is a "Vref+5" of some 128-130 KIAS. Autobrakes on MED, you can probably stop on about 3,000 feet of dry concrete, and still impress the folks by a smooth landing. My flying is just average, but as for landings, people say "looks like the guy has done this before...!!!"
xxx
Not to impress you, it is not airmanship, these old 747s are nice landing birds...
Never had a bad one even with 6,000+ hrs in them...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Willit Run]

One small correcton Bel Arg, A light weight 747- has a flaps 30 ref speed of 118 knots! I t will easily stop in 4000 feet with med brakes.

In contrast, a light weight 747 will get off the ground in 3000' Thats fun!

[Feather #3]

For RPT ops, Wellington NZ [NZWN/WLG] at 1936m, but the LDA of only 1814m.

We were using the fabulous B747-SP38 withe the D4 engines at C2 thrust.

G'day ;)

[Fright Level]

BA take their 747's into Cambridge (EGSC) for cabin work. LDA on 23 is 1747m, or 1635m on 05.

[troppo]

Air NZ took a 742 into NZWN in 1999 (?) for the opening of the new terminal.
The low pass over a test match at Athletic Park got more publicity :}

[BelArgUSA]

Willit Run /
xxx
Correct, 30 flaps Vref is 118 kts at 180 tons...
Generally, BOW for our 747-200s is about 175 tons...
I doubt anyone flies with only a few drops in the tanks... so shall we make it 190...?
190 tons, my table, same as yours says 121... add 5 kts for Granny = 126 as Vth...
I am not with LH... cannot fly within 1 knot, sorry... too senile nowadays.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Newgen Jock]

Ref post no 4:
The most impressive thing was the WIDTH of rwy this 747 landed on......... barely enough for the main bogeys!
And that in what appears to be a fairly substantial crosswind. Of course, very well rehearsed and practised (in the sim) beforehand. Very professionally handled.

[18-Wheeler]

Correct, 30 flaps Vref is 118 kts at 180 tons...
Generally, BOW for our 747-200s is about 175 tons...
I doubt anyone flies with only a few drops in the tanks... so shall we make it 190...?

FWIW I've landed a 747 freighter at 171 tonnes many times - ~160 tonnes BOW + minimum arrival fuel of ~11 tonnes.
Vref around 118kts.

Also done a rather large number of landings at 285 tonnes as well - 152kts Vref.

[The Flying Pram]

I've found a bit more information on my earlier post (#4)
The runway width is 50ft, and the 747-200's outer main gear tyre width is 41ft 4". Landing speed (Vref was 115kt)
Here is a (scanned) composite photo:
Or rather there isn't - I don't appear to have this option. Do I need a minimum number of posts before I can insert an image?

[BelArgUSA]

Evidently, freighters have a 10 tons lighter BOW than pax planes...
The freighters we leased used to be about 157 to 163 tons BOW...
Compare that to the 172 or 173 BOW of pax birds.
xxx
Since we moved from "how short a runway in a 747" to "how heavy and associated Vref" to impress each other´s ability to read our speed tables, shall we mention the 302,092 kg (and a few grams) which was the max landing weight option, (as an example) of the 747-271Cs of Cargolux. Checking my log books - were registered LX-ACV/BCV and ECV in 1993... Anyone needs the c/n of these airplanes as well, I could research that...?
xxx
Showing my (own) ability to read tables, and impress the gallery on the optical quality of my bifocal eyeglasses, and advanced mathematical abilities I have acquired as a schoolboy in the last century, that would give us an even more impressive Vref of 164.5 KIAS, this due (quoting the Boeing QRH -7Q-PERF in reference, revised 2003) "speeds for weights above 301,000 kg based on flaps 25 due to flap load relief system operation"... ("sapiens cum libro", to have a dash of Latin culture - "de viris illustribus" - to further impress the readers).
xxx
Generally, most airlines (most...?) operating 747s indulge in operating on 10,000 feet long runways, or equivalent... so how short a runway "etc" - is just a typical "brain fart" for coffee-breaks in recurrent training. No wonder I have a dash of sexy grey hair on my head.
xxx
I now close my QRH and fill a cold mug with Quilmes... cheers
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[el #]

BelArgUSA,

I'm genuinely impressed and I whish I could profit more of your great piloting and educational skills.
Unfortunately I'm still a bit far from a 742 TR, but still manage to enjoy exciting things from life :)

Thanks again for making a great pprune reading.

[Dan Winterland]

36 at LHR. It was very short. But you should have seen the width! :}

[john_tullamarine]

Do I need a minimum number of posts before I can insert an image?

PPRuNe doesn't permit images directly .. check out via the search function how to use a host site for the file and then link to the site from the PPRuNe post.

[CR2]

I spent many an hour on these...

LXACV (MSN 21964)

21/12/1979 Transamerica Airlines N741TV
01/09/1980 Nigeria Airways N741TV
01/09/1981 Nigeria Airways N741TV
03/05/1985 UTA N741TV
08/10/1986 Cargolux N741TV
06/01/1987 Cargolux LX-ACV
11/11/1998 Cargolux N538MC
23/03/1999 Atlas Air N538MC
20/11/1999 Cargo Air Lines 4X-ICL

LXBCV (MSN 22403)

01/06/1981 Transamerica Airlines N743TV
14/04/1985 Saudia N743TV
01/04/1986 Cargolux N743TV
22/12/1986 Cargolux LX-BCV
29/10/1998 Cargolux N537MC Operated by Atlas
05/05/2003 Atlas Air N537MC

LXECV (MSN 21965)

26/03/1980 Transamerica Airlines N742TV
01/09/1981 Nigeria Airways N742TV
19/06/1987 Cargolux LX-ECV
11/12/1998 Cargolux N539MC
04/06/2000 Atlas Air N539MC
19/01/2001 Cargo Air Lines 4X-ICM

[BelArgUSA]

My Gosh CR2...
xxx
I did not mean anyone to go through the troubles of getting these msn...
Was a joke, since some of our friends love to go in details with magnifying glasses and use decimals of inches and grams...
So I like to pull their leg too.
xxx
Apologies from my type of humour, and... thanks for the serial numbers.
Glad to see that these outstanding (but now old) birds are still active.
These three babies were the best and nicest 747 freighters I ever flew.
Had all the heavy weight mods and GE's concerto for 4 CF-6s in E Flat...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[CR2]

No worries... a quick google did the trick. Those planes were very well looked after, was a shame to see them go. I spent a little over ten years working with them. Progress etc...

[Jumbo Driver]

...
Anyone used Max Auotbrake on the 744? I've only used 4 but would imagine Max is like dropping an anchor?
(PS : Yeah ... CBG/Cambridge UK @ 1892m ... but would imagine at just over ZFW not up to MLW ... mostly 747's in there are for re-fits at Marshalls).

Not on the 744 - but I do remember using MAX autobrake in a 742 on the shorter runway (32) at BOM once - when 27 was unavailable - "just to see". It was progressive, highly effective and very reassuring.

More recently, I also took a new 744 out of Cambridge to LGW after cabin additions at Marshalls. That provided a very impressive initial climb as we were empty, with about 30t of fuel and were at full chat. I think all the workers at Marshalls came out to watch our departure!


JD
:)