Questions for the CAS?

[RICKIT]

CAS's staff are conducting a review into how best to enable CAS to communicate with "his" people, mainly focussed at Cpl/Sgt and Flt Lt/Sqn Ldr level. I have been asked to canvas my people to provide the best 5 RAF-related questions for the CAS, I have my own ideas but what do you think?

[Mr-Burns]

Oh this should be good ..........

[Bob Viking]

What do YOU think of JPA Sir?
Honest answer please!
BV:E

[Rather be Gardening]

And following Mr Viking's question:

'Have you read the JPA thread on PPrune and the associated links?'

[Gainesy]

"Hiya Torps, how's Christine?"

[mcs7]

1. Why do you believe everything the PTI's tell you?
2. Why do you believe everything the Rock Apes tell you?
3. Why don't you believe the rest of us when we tell you about the problems with spares, manpower, JPA ..................?
:ugh:

[Runaway Gun]

Do you ever feel like correcting the politicians on military matters when they utter such rubbish on the News?

[The Helpful Stacker]

What is your ideal Sunday afternoon?

[Roland Pulfrew]

When are you going to tell the Civil Service/HMT that there are no more savings to be had and that we will not be trying to meet them until the force has eradicated all shorfalls in personnel and equipment?

When are you going to increase the size of the RAF so that there are sufficient personnel to meet all of our requirements? That is sufficient instructors to train sufficient personnel of all branches and trades to meet the requirements of the frontline.

When are you going to scrap PFIs and insist that the governement procure equipment properly?

When are you going to accept that JPA is a crock and we need more PSF staff until JPA is fit for purpose?

When are you going to start demanding that all MQs which are still required are nationalised and brought back into MOD ownership so that we might hope for a better service than we currently get from MODern Housing Solutions? (By MODern I guess we accept contractors turning up unannounced, or outside agreed times, to fix things that were badly installed in the first place).

I have more if you want.......

[OKOC]

Is there anything that the Government could do to the RAF that would prompt you to resign to defend your point of principle?

No, I thought not--the pension is not worth sacrificing for ANYTHING.

[roony]

Have you, like me, stopped getting angry about the sorry state of affairs and now beginning to find it quite amusing?

[stiknruda]

Sir, do you honestly believe that the organisation is fit for purpose and that it has not been over-stretched for some considerable time? If not, how could you possibly accept the current downscaling of manpower and materiel?

[EngAl]

The first question ".......how best to enable CAS to communicate with "his" people....." Begs questions about AMP's Liaison Team. Does it still exist? Is it broken? If it still exists why not expand it? (I know, manpower!)

With regard to the best 5 RAF related questions - Roland Pulfrew has given a good summary. It really is time someone drew a line in the sand. I thought the RAF was reaching critical mass (Fleets, Branches, Trades, etc. too small to be viable) when I left in 2000, but the downward spiral continues.
It would be difficult though to exaggerate the need to fix JPA. Although, in my view it should be by-passed by increasing PSF staff. It beggars belief that operationally streched people have to do their own admin with a not fit for purpose system which is backed up by an anonymous and unreliable help desk system.

[Tigs2]

Maybe RICKIT IS CAS:suspect:

[VinRouge]

How about how are you going to man in theatre AT when every man and his dog has left due to shocking morale?

How about when is he going to give a presentation to the ME and RW fraternity and not mention harrier and eurofighter once?

When is he planning to tackle real issues such as dilution and the shocking lack of spare parts in theatre instead of tickling the fringe issues?

[RICKIT]

Maybe RICKIT IS CAS:suspect:

No I'm not, but thanks to your replies I am compiling a list to send to my SO2 who will no doubt filter out any contentious issues and make it sound like everything is OK with the Service (like the RAF News does;)).

[whiz]

Maybe RICKIT IS CAS:suspect:


Surely in that case he would have chosen the name RICKER ! :}

[teeteringhead]

Thread Drift Alert!!

No, I thought not--the pension is not worth sacrificing for ANYTHING.

.....this often gets mentioned but ain't so! For a 4* his pension is half pay (ish) whenever he retires ..... of course the pension's not as good as the pay!

In fact (I once shared an office with a P1 expert), once earned (whatever that means!), it's almost impossible to lose your pension - even after a Court Martial for something nasty. IIRC it needs to be treason or similar to lose the pension, "mere" armed robbery or rape (for example) wouldn't do it.

Back to CAS........

I once was invited to ask a CAS a question - I asked: "Suppose you are taking your undergraduate godson out to dinner. How would you pursuade him to join the RAF? And if you couldn't - why not!"

[glum]

I met CAS on one of his recent trips out East. He asked what we'd like to improve our lot (on the AT fleet) and I gave him a few serious suggestions.

The answer came back that he understood how hard we're all working - manpower and aircraft, but that things would be great by 2015...:eek:

[Green Bottle 2]

How about "When are the SH Force going to be able to call themselves part of the RAF again?"
:hmm:

[The Swinging Monkey]

Sir,

1. When are you going to start acting like the CAS instead of some half-hearted wimp ?

2. When are you going to let Sqn Cdrs and Stn Cdrs run their own Sqns and Stns instead of Blunties, PTI's, Rockapes and faceless civil serpents ?

3. When are you going to stand up in public, and admit to the british people that the RAF is a crock opf $%£" at the moment?

4. When are you going to resign over the appalling morale, welfare and disgraceful way in which our servicemen and women are treated ?

and lastly

5. When will you understand that the RAF comprises of AT, SH, ASW and many other assets, and NOT just bloody Typhoons ?

[Affirmatron]

Don't you think it's about time somebody resigned from the high echelons of the RAF to highlight to dire position we've been put in?

or

How are you planning to resolve the manning crisis that will arise from charging 'equivalent local rents' for MQs from 2010? Can I refuse a posting on the grounds that I can't afford to live there? Shouldn't somebody resign to highlight the dire position we've been put in?

or

Surely we're planning a military coup. Why has nobody contacted me yet?

[shawshank]

Any chance of aligning the number of air officers with the number of sqns/ac/minions.

Please draw a line in the sand in terms of manpower vs tasking and let everyone know about it.

[mossie_uk]

CAS, after his briefing to the SNCO's at Waddington I don't think he even speaks the same language as the rest of us. To be able to communicate with his people he needs to learn a whole new language, based on the truth, obviously something he's not getting at the moment.

[L J R]

1. Why did you even have to have the review of comms with CPL / Flt Lt in the first place?

2. Did you not actually know that they cannot understand you nor you understand them?

3. Do you know what is actually happening in the 'average' station RE: Quarters, (Married & Single), BS rules, level of servcie and attitude from some contractors etc?

4. ...and yes, is JPA working?

5. Can I have another 5 Questions please?

[charliegolf]

Do you have a son named Christopher?

Thread drift (understatement), but

There was a Torpey in the daughter's grad ceremony earlier this year. Physics too, no basketweaving in the Golf lineage.

CG

He'll find that one easier to answer p'raps.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Any idea as to the destination of this train that we are all apparently on and if there are any more desirable stops before said destination at which we can alight? Also is the buffet car open?

[nigegilb]

Love the question on trains.

I would like to add a supplementary.

Any chance of Virgin taking over the franchise?

[mustflywillfly]

How often does he and 1SL willingly take it up the Gary Glitter from the Under Secretary of State for Defence and does he swallow? :}









Sorry, another pointless paper pushing afternoon at work dodging the strawberry mivvies that are breeding like rabbits. I'll get my coat. Taxi for one.... (never mind footy match to watch shortly) MFWF

[greycoat]

Wasn't CASWO post established to provide CAS with the mood at grass roots level? Or has that post been disestablished somewhere along the line.

[airborne_artist]

1. Why were you really uncomfortable during the questioning for the Panorama Nimrod programme?

2. What have you done about Nimrod since?

3. Do you wish you had done it sooner?

4. Why didn't you do it sooner?

5. Are there any other similar situations?

[SaddamsLoveChild]

Gents, Please some decorum. Personally attacking CAS as in TSM's post undermines any reasonbable questions, and is infact insulting. Do you think he is not aware, Do you think he doesnt care and doesnt fight behind closed doors. What I do know is that he is in the same service as CDS, whose edict for his minions not to make statements outside of their briefs ala Dannett and 1SL have to be taken seriously so as not to undermine his efforts with the doublehatted Browns.

I respect him but I believe that he is out of touch because of poor reporting of FACTS up the chain of command, rumours and conjecture without supporting facts are just rumours and conjecture - fact the average pilot PVR rate is not historically high, specific areas and age groups are but they are masked by other age groups and areas. NRD/ORD is high but no-one is reporting other than on PPrune or Egoat that they are leaving because of poor morale/MODern housing etc; then again there is no requirement to state why you are leaving at NRD/ORD - why not write to your AOC/CAS if you are so agrieved at the state and have already made the decision to lget off the train at your option.

Perhaps if people speak with the AFBLT that is doing the rounds or someone creates a thread for 'Issues to the AFBLT' then those not able to attend their stn opportunities due to OOA/down route will also be heard and CAS will then get a brief. Ever tried writing to the CASWO - he isnt just there for the Junior Ranks and regularly consults with junior and senior officers on their thoughts.

As I say pse have some decorum and respect, if not for the man but for the rank.........


Battle Bonnet and frag jacket on in the shelter.............

[Affirmatron]

For the rank.......

Don't you think it's about time somebody resigned from the high echelons of the RAF to highlight to dire position we've been put in?

.......now that would get my respect.

SLC, I'm sure he knows about the problems and issues and I'm sure he's trying to resolve them. Just as all the others before him have. And look where we are now. Just a thought.....

[monkeybumhead]

What is your definition of overstretch?

Can we have some more manpower?

Can we have some decent kit?

Is offering TG 1 & 2 Cpls & Sgts the chance to sign on for an extra 3 years past 22/30 not crisis management?

Now that he's no longer in power, you can be honest now, do you think Tony Bliar is a right lying c**t like the rest of us do?

[Spam_UK]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how a senior officer resigning would help any of the above situations. All it would do would be to give the media five minutes to report on things that are already widely known, thus damaging the image of the forces even more, not helping it!

Then we'd just have to wait for someone else to be promoted into the gap left, and have to pick up the pieces and pretty much start over.

You say you want a senior officer to resign on principle, isnt this a catch 22? As having a senior officer who is willing to resign on principle of whats going on, just the sort of person you want in the job in the first place?!

(he says whilst running to the nearest exit)

[Biggus]

SLC

Personally I would have thought 'mustflywillfly's' comments on CAS were much more objectionable than TSM's!

As for CASWO providing grass roots feedback to CAS, that is indeed the main reason for his existence - as far as I am aware. However, while I am not personally in a position to comment, there is thread on e-goat which implies the current encumbant might, and I only say might, be pushing the party line more...


http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=9929


As for how CAS could better communicate with the 'chaps', how about he visits a non FJ station and wanders around, without the Stn Cdr and all the usual hangers on, and just talks to people. Believe it or not, most of them don't bite!!

[Al R]

Gainesy said:
"Hiya Torps, how's Christine?"


".. and are you able to tell us what exactly it was that Jim Davidson said to her?"

[dallas]

I think the answer is simple:

A means to address our concerns directly to him.

I have lots of ideas on how we could do things better and can see fundamental errors in the way we do business. But I feel powerless to do anything about them. I would love to be able to address these issues, but want to avoid retribution from those above me who haven't been as dynamic in their thinking. Too often the hierarchy use the system to dilute or dissolve good ideas, well before they reached anywhere near a serious level. We don't encourage dynamism - middle management find it threatening or subversive.

We need an equivalent of a confidential "CAS' Suggestion Box", where individuals can submit these ideas directly - possibly in a set format: situation/proposal/benefit - allowing those with the courage of their convictions to pitch their ideas at the right level. Some would be bolleaux, but if 1 in 50 is a good idea it would be worth it, not to mention the feeling of empowerment for those who want to retain a sharehold.

I often feel CAS isn't fed real world information, in favour of a candy coated RAF that doesn't exist outside the Red Arrows.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

So many sensible folk...........but why are you posting..............fools!

[OOpsIdiditagain]

Do you wish you had the courage of General Dannat such that you were able to defend the RAF publically?

Do you remember what it was that was important to you when you were a mere junior officer?

Do you really care about the state the RAF and its people are in?

Do you find it easy to look at yourself in the mirror and block out thoughts of those suffering under your command whereever we serve?

Do you really care about what we think?

[The Swinging Monkey]

SaddamsLoveChild

If you are seriously suggesting that Glen DOES NOT know what is going on, then that only makes matters even worse! He does know, he is NOT out of touch, he simply chooses to do absolutely 'squat' about it.

As has been pointed out here, he has worked up to this position and is well aware of how bad news is shielded from him by those below, but it is his job to find out what is going on and, if rfequired, have the courage to make a stand.

How long has AFBLT been going? What about CASWO conferences ? Are you suggesting that he hasn't been briefed on their outcomes? or is the word on the street so bad that none of the 1* or above have had the balls to tell him yet?

Has morale ever been worse in the service?
Have our servicemen and women ever had such appalling support from those on high?
Has the 'welfare' of our service staff ever been so dreadful ?
(The answers to all the above are all an emphatic NO!)

The fact is that all he is interested in is his bloody Typhoons. He thinks they will somehow save the RAF. IMHO he should take a long hard look at the AT fleet that we 'don't have'. He should go spend a couple of weeks with the SH fleet, and see how they are struggling. Then get up to ISK and see the dreadful state of the Nimrod fleet (what's left of it) and then maybe go and visit the rest of the guys in a service that is frankly, bancrupt.

Perhaps then he will go along to Messrs Brown and Browne and say, 'sorry gents, but this cannot continue, and if you don't get it sorted, I'm going to resign'

That way HE most definately will win our respect, NOT his rank!

[nigegilb]

Thing is, he he doesn't even need to resign. He just needs to hold a press conference, say what he has to say, then stand his ground and dare this shambolic Govt to sack him. What will the halfwits say? They have no credibility. RAF just needs someone with a spine and a set.

Not holding my breath with Torpy though, he simply doesn't have it in him.

[Baskitt Kase]

Sir,

Q1: Can I go now?

Q2-5: See Q1.

PS. If you wish to know how to communicate better with your people, make sure to ask us for forwarding addresses as we depart...

[wokkameister]

Hello Sir, your looking lost.

No this is 1310 Flt. The AT and the Harriers are down the corridor.

Bye Sir.

Oh, in fact he did visit the Stan recently, and didnt visit the SH guys. Never mind, pehaps he'd be so kind as to take Chinooks of the front of all RAF publicity material, and stop people giving Odius Strike Command awards.

After all, we're not FJ, only quasi-RAF these days and he really doesnt seem to give a rats ass!

Just shaft us like everyone else does!

WM

[Blacksheep]

The last time I met CAS/CDS (Sir Andrew Humphrey) he asked us the questions. We looked after his personal Gazelle at the time and his peregrinations often had us working at weekends. He noticed that it was always the same four guys and enquired into our shift patterns and working hours. He ordered beers all round as well - at 32 Sqns expense!

There were changes in our working arrangements after that chat. Its a pity he never managed a full innings as CDS. :(

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

CAS could get the SH Force back into the RAF proper by fighting for JHC to be 3 Gp, under HQ Air's command. If the Army and RN squeal, let them have permanent 2* stewardship of the Gp on a rotational basis, with the RAF permanently providing the 1*.

HPT

[plans123]

Sir,

Do you or any of your staff actually read any of the RAF message boards?

If not - why not?

If you do; do you just ignore it as bluff and blunder, rather than think 'hang about..they've got a point'

[Grabbers]

Sir,
Any chance of 'joined up thinking' any time soon?
If the shop floor do much more 'firefighting' will they be entitled to strike?
Any chance of a pay rise to back up the empty, can't buy food with it, rhetoric?
Will someone admit it is a mistake to lose Military hospitals, and when can we have a couple back?
Will you bring back sports afternoons?

[Sand4Gold]

Why?


Hopefully, I'd get a reply........then let the tirade begin.

[Wader2]

While I agree with the sentiments express I also know that CAS is fighting for the RAF both for now and what he sees is as important, for the future.

Then the point about resignations - yes, what would it achieve? However what about the voices from senior retired officers?

I see letters from Senior Army Officers, I see letters from many Naval Officers, I see and hear from previous CinC and CAS . . . . . . . . .

Apart from Lord Tim, there is a defening silence from the grey suited ex-light blue. Remember the Scottish Gp Capt who was pushed threatening to tell all . . . I think someone whispers in their ears the P word.:sad:

[Big Bear]

Sir,

Why do we still have IPTs staffed by incompetant civil servants who have no idea of operational capibility or state of the art technology?

When are we going to re-staff IPTs with Military posts filled by people with relevant and recent operational experience, not REMFs who have bummed around quiet backwaters for their whole careers?

When are we going to augment IPTs with suitably qualified and experienced civillians who have a grasp of modern technology and who are paid a salary comparable to that which they could command in industry?

Bear

[PingDit]

1. Have we historically, always had 1 Group Captain for every 100 other ranks in the RAF?

2. How many months of the year are you spending in the sand?

3. Would you agree that in the interests of flight safety, all Nimrods should be grounded until further notice?

4. Can you suggest how I can convince my young SAC's and Corporals to remain in the RAF?

5. When are you going to say "No more" to OOA tasking so that we can concentrate on getting our own house in order?

[difar69]

Sir,

Danni or Kylie Minogue?:E

[blogger]

1. Why do you stay in? When you can leave on a full wage pension?

2. Why do we have F/S's doing gate guard, is this value for money?

3. Why am I forced to pay mess fee's when I don't use the mess at all?

4. What level on manning do you see in the RAF in 5, 10,15 years time?

5. Why is everyone leaving? (60% of my section is on resettlement at present.)

6. Why do servicemen salute Gordon Brown?

7. Where are all the spares?

[TrenchardsLoveSock]

Only one question from me.

Sir, re the last 5 to 10 years: Why?

[cheesedoff]

When all the a**e kissing stops and the yes men dissapear, then perhaps things might get better.

Nice thought though!

[dirtygc]

It appears the manning crisis has been addressed. We are all encouraged to become 'Dog the Bounty Hunter'.

A Recruitment Bounty Scheme (RBS) was launched in Oct 07. Under the scheme, eligible RAF personnel are encouraged to recruit individuals into the Service. The reward for recruiting a single individual into a recruitment ‘pinch point’ branch or trade will be £1300 (gross) paid once the recruit has successfully completed Phase 2 training.

Does this mean that the pers manning the AFCO will be raking it in?

[Laird 'o' Balmullo]

1. How many C130s do we have to lose before replacements are ordered?
2. Do you think it is really a good idea to shoehorn the whole of Transport Command into a foggy part of Oxfordshire?
3. If we are going to build runways in the middle of deserts, do you think they should be wide, normal, narrow, or really narrow?
4. Do you think given the current and likely future tempo of operations, a return to Cold War levals of defence spending is not an unreasonable request the military might make of government?
5. When does lean become anorexic?

[mutleyfour]

I have a question for the CDS.

Why did my request for leave end up at his JPA account? :O

[The Swinging Monkey]

Wader,

Could you enlighten us into exactly what the CAS is fighting for?

With the exception of Typhoon, this guy has done nothing that I can see for the rank and file of the service, other than oversee the biggest slump in manpower, morale, support ands welfare for our service men and women. Frankly, he should be utterly ashamed and get of his backside and do something about it.

How many people in the RAF (and the services I'm sure) are happy with this JPA thing? How much has been written on prune about it? My friends still in tell me that it is a complete farce. Why is it still so?

Why do the boys and girls still not have enough of the basic kit they need to tdo the job?

Why is more effort being put into niff-naff such as 2 lots of AFT instyead of getting the real issues sorted out?

CAS fighting for the service is he?? yeah, right!

Ref the point about resignations and what would it achieve? It would get so much publicity that hopefully this government might just take some notice. Your comment about retired senior officers is absolutely true, and their comments are now long forgotten. My complaint with them is that they should have done the moaning whilst they were still in!! Not wait until they leave.

STAND UP AND BE COUNTED, thats the measure of real courage and commitment, and that's what's expected of the CAS.

[ancientaviator62]

I am afraid we must face the fact the the Armed Forces (and the Royal Air Force in particular ) have been 'abandoned' by the politicians, the public and most disgracefully of all by the 'grownups'. I have no doubt that most of our senior officers know the true state of affairs but do not speak out for fear of the impact on their careers.
Some of course will have both eyes on a post RAF career with a defence contractor, a path well trodden by retired senior RAF officers.

[Kengineer-130]

the only thing to be said is that we are being torn apart by a generation of spineless yes men with no bollocks to say "NO". :mad::ugh:

[SRENNAPS]

I love the way that only politicians and senior officers are blamed for everything. Politicians seem to be held totally responsible and the top senior officers are accused of being spineless and only interested in their careers.

Maybe we (sorry you – I left in May) should look a little bit closer to home:

How many SNCOs and WOs tell their JengOs that the RAF is in meltdown?

How many JengOs tell their SengOs how pi$$ed off the lads are.

How many SengOs tell OC Sqn or OC Eng (Forward or Depth?) how hacked off their entire Sqn is.

How many OC Sqns or OC Eng’s tell the Stn Cdr’s that there might be a problem with morale on a particular Sqn.

How many Stn Cdr’s tell the AOC that their station is overworked and undermanned & basically can’t cope anymore?

How many AOCs tell Glenn how it really is???

They can’t because nobody gets the truth from the bottom.

Two problems exist:

1. There will always be a “Can Do” attitude from those that care and they will always sort it. This hides the problem.
2. Those that only play at being in the RAF will always suck up to their boss and tell them what they want to here - whatever the rank.

I think a few of you that post here and make such strong comments need to take a long hard look on just how brave you are to tell your Bosses how it is – ????

I knew Glenn when he was Stn Cdr at Bruggen – and he was a bloody good bloke.

Finally pause for thought – just how many top Civil Servant type chappies really care about what goes on at the front line. They are the ones that make the real decisions. They dictate the size of our forces, they dictate where the money is spent, and they take the credit when it all goes well and destroy military careers when it all goes wrong. And then they sit back and watch the politicians and senior officers take all the flack.


Regards

[c130jbloke]

I think that last post just about covered it ...

:uhoh::uhoh:

[nigegilb]

My only involvement with CAS came about with the Herc foam campaign. I watched him brief the Parliamentary Defence Committee that he would never send a Herc crew against a threat it could not counter. (Afg Deployment, 2006). At the time, no RAF Hercs had foam and the J had a very basic DAS. I was perplexed, how could CAS say this? Why should I believe that he has fought tooth and nail for the RAF, when he couldn't even say that Herc crews had no protection against bullets? Since then every Herc going sausage has been installed with foam and the J is in the process of getting a DAS upgrade.

What exactly is so difficult about telling the truth to politicians? Why do military leaders have to play the same games?

If Glenn stepped forward and explained what is wrong he wouldn't be saying anything new, but it would be extremely powerful coming from the horses mouth.

[Kengineer-130]

The crux of the problem is that the troops have too much pride to just sit back and let things get so bad the grown ups take notice... 99% of people I work with ALL tell seniors our problems, we all want to make things better, easier, more efficient, less time consuming, etc etc etc. The trouble is, no one ever LISTENS :ugh::ugh::mad:

Just look at the eng wing at Lyneham, the HLS/FLECS lean project got pushed through against the advice of countless sac's/cpls/sgts/fs/wo/jengos/sengos etc etc. 2 years later it was canned as it was a disaster, but STILL no one would admit it was a complete mistake..... we are still suffering from that now. And again, senior staff must know that manpower is at a low, dets are at a high, just look at the threads on here.. do they think we make these threads for fun?

Why has it taken years of pressure, a number of tragic deaths and a few frame losses and lots and lots of hard work by Nigegilb amonst others to get the BASIC protection for the herc fleet?? why was it not put in place pro-activley? :ugh:

why do none of the senior officer ranks ever come and speak to people on thier own, instead of with the entourage of staish, swo, and about 20 other hangers on?? No one will speak thier mind as they will get labelled as a whinger for airing thier views. Now this sounds hypocritical as this is what we are asking our seniors to do, but we need to be sure that the chain of command works for us, not just ignore us and do what they think is best regardless of anything else......

[Al R]

SRENNAPS (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=23567) ,

Are you saying we have commanders who are so out of touch with reality, they a) don't know the truth and don't know what you're saying either, or b) they don't know how the system works?

That worries me.

[Wrathmonk]

SRENNAPS

Wise words. :D:D:D And whilst I've been typing there have been two responses:

Al R - we have weak commanders out of touch with reality at all levels. But they know how the system works - keep your nose clean, perhaps be a yes man, and bingo you're promoted. Maybe that is true of some or all of our most senior commanders but having worked for CAS at various stages of his career I would like to think he is the exception.

KEng - do you think the Chiefs like having the stn entourage with them? I would suggest that more often than not the stn cdr, SWO etc are there to make sure no one screws their careers or prevents their MBE/OBE/CBE etc! Best thing I ever saw was seeing a 4* direct the hangers leave the crewroom so he could have an open, "no holds barred", chat with those present (with ranks from SAC to sqn ldr). He got the no holds chat he wanted, ensured his ADC took notes, and responded to the issues in writing. Sadly said 4* gets little respect on this forum (3 letter surname - say no more;))

How many people who have demanded CAS falls on his sword ticked the "I have no comment to make" on their annual report and then bitched and moaned about their report in the bar? Or stood up to be counted at the numerous roadshows (albeit the CASWO / AFPRB or whatever). How many of those who have PVR'd have sent a formal letter to the Air Sec to formally state their reasons for leaving (as opposed to waiting for someone from on high to wonder why they are leaving and then bitch when they didn't ask). How many of those demanding CAS speaks his mind are actually armchair Air Marshals?

How many people who have bitched about the current CAS have actually worked for him? I have at sqn, stn as well as in an operational theatre. And I guess I still work for him seeing as he is CAS. He knows his stuff and how to work his political masters (as well as his Fish Head and Pongo oppos). Yes he may bang on about Typhoon at times but in the big Defence scheme of things he has to balance the future with the present. SH is a Land thing. It is nothing more than a tank that flies to them. Maybe the answer ther would be to transfer all SH aircrew and groundcrew to the AAC (joking - dons helmet!:ok:). Don't forget nothing comes quickly in the Air Force (fnarr fnarr). Most of our budget for the forseeable future is already spent and even if we were able to free up considerable sums of cash you can't just pop down to the supermarket and pick up a load of SH/AT/UAV etc. How long has it taken to get Pred B? If any of you armchair Air Marshals can forsee the op situation in 10 years then please drop by Whitehall and let them know your wisdom because I'm sure that in 1997 nobody thought we'd be up to our necks in Irag and Afghanistan.

My only question to him - if you bowed to the armchair Air Marshals and resigned, who would you want to replace you?

[brit bus driver]

Sir....just how deep is the pooh we're in?

:confused:

[fantaman]

Why when most Tornado squadron are struggling for spares, never mind aircraft, are we doing this? No one looking for a half decent fighter on the second hand market?


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/martin43/po3.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/martin43/po1.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/martin43/po2.jpg

[Roadster280]

Fantaman -

That is truly shocking. I wasn't going to comment here. I'm an ex-Pongo that spent a bit of time on RAF stations, and playing with your SH toys. The RAF is your trainset however, and far be it for me to comment on your issues.

However, in light of your photos, I can't help myself but to speak out.

Ok, those aircraft aren't the type we're short of, but the imagery is indicative of the mindset.

Questions for CAS:

1. Are you confident that there are no fundamental flaws in the RAF's policy regarding people, aircraft, and stations?
2. Do you have confidence in your government's resolve to address any points arising from 1?
3. Do you believe that the RAF's commitments are being met satisfactorily?
4. Do you believe that the RAF's foreseeable future commitments are likewise achieveable?
5. What troubles you?

[GasFitter]

Any adversary out there is lapping up all this public comment from the disaffected. Every whinge is another feather in the cap of the Taliban/AQ/HIG fighter and without really knowing it, you're unwittingly lining up with those that we fight .. making our jobs just that little bit more difficult. If it's too hard ... leave ... or is the pay/boarding school allowance/sporting opportunities/social life/mates/travel/pension etc, too attractive to let go ....... Oh, there still is something that's good then! We know it's a dangerous business and there are things that need improving, but stop all this crabfat whinging .. for goodness sake!

[The Swinging Monkey]

SRENNAPS

Your post has a ring of truth about it, but is flawed I'm afraid, and et me give you just a brief reason why............

'How many OC Sqns or OC Eng’s tell the Stn Cdr’s that there might be a problem with morale on a particular Sqn.
How many Stn Cdr’s tell the AOC that their station is overworked and undermanned & basically can’t cope anymore?
How many AOCs tell Glenn how it really is???'

All of the above (which you wrote) is 100% true and correct, so I have just one simple question for you.......

Where has Glenn T been for the last 25 years of his carreer?
Do you think he dosn't know any of the above? I rest my case.

Oh, and one last point. The reason why ploiticians come in for so much stick also is because they are the ones who control the purse strings. Not Jengos or Sengos or even Sqn and Stn Cdrs, its government who say how much we can have to spend.

So, when you have past CDS, and other very senior officers all bleating almost exclusively about ££££££ who else do you point the finger at? the boys on the line maybe? crew chiefs?

Wrathmonk
When I PVRd, I did just as you suggest. I wrote to the Air Sec and my AOC a formal letter pointing out the reasons why I was leaving the service after 30+ years. I explained the reasons in a calm and logical manner to them both. The responce from the Air Sec was 'thank you for your letter' and from my AOC just a simple 'thank you'

So, if you think that they are any more interested than Torpy is, then I'm afraid you are mistaken.

And lastly, let me reiterate that Glenn Torpy is a top bloke. He is a charming and likeable man. But that does NOT make him a strong and powerful leader I'm afraid. Far from it in fact.

[Wrathmonk]

TSM

Now that saddens me that neither the Air Sec nor the AOC were interested. You would like to think that, at the very least, their outer office staff may, if nothing else, touch base on the phone (even perhaps out of curiosity). Perhaps this may change as the trickle of those leaving becomes a tidal wave.

I'm obviously in a huge minority as I believe the current CAS is a strong leader. May not be all puffed chest and volume (like Gen Jacko perhaps) but a strong leader in his own way - and I think as I've said previously he is very good at playing the politcos at their own game. Sometimes playing the waiting game and not shouting your problems from the roof top can work. I guess the next 6 months will be critical once the impact of the CSR works through the system. Of course, I may well be proven wrong and it will all end up in tears. Comes back to my question for him - if he was to leave who would he want to replace him. Perhaps more to the point who is there to replace him - better the devil you know and all that!;)

[SnakePeel]

1. Sir, I know it may seem insignificant, but if the minions have to travel by the cheapest means 'by car or train' then how can it be justified that the senior staffs still travel by helicopter?

Surely they can get more staffwork completed on a train or in the back of a car than they can whilst poling an augusta round the skies.

I dont remeber seeing an announcement to say ' Sweeping changes to travel across the board' in an IBN or on the MOD Website.

Its all down to communication and it isnt happening down the chain at the moment...............

[The Swinging Monkey]

Wrathmonk

It is indeed a sad tale, but I don't think mine would have been isolated.

I left the RAF after 33 years aircrew and frankly, it counted for squat. I did get a valedictory letter which amounted to 3/4 of a side of A4. Not bad really I suppose. It's more than most people are getting these days I hear. The problem is that no one gives a stuff.

Glenn Torpy must be aware of these things. He is NOT an idiot or a fool. The problem is that like most people when they get on the promotion ladder, are not prepared to stand up and tell it as it is. It's outrageous that he will not go public and tell it as it is.

GasFitter,
Are you being serious or just being plain stupid? You should retract your comment about people like me (who are prepared to tell it as it is) as lining up with the likes of the Taliban & AQ etc. What utter nonesence you speak. How does it make your job any harder by me having a moan? I left, not because it was too hard, on the contrary. I left because the RAF had ceased to be run by the likes of Torpy and his band of AOCs. Stations and Sqns were being run by PTIs, Rocks, Blunties and Scribblies and faceless civilians who believed it was more important to have some niff-naff form filled in rarther than going to the sandpit yet again on ops.

I didn't have boarding school allowance thank you. My kids went to the local secondary school, and I wish I had had the time to use the sports facilities, travel and social life that you elude to.

TSM

[Four Types]

I can put up with a lot but!

"Why is it that JPA is unaccountable to anyone? A chap doesn't get paid and no one (and we mean no one) will stand up and take the blame. Faceless apathetic call centres, decent folk in SHQ powerless to help, and rank of little use in trying to get it sorted. People have to spend hours on a phone or computer trying to get what is rightly theirs without recall to any 'liaison' staff . Put a face to JPA, stand up and be counted" :ugh:

[The Swinging Monkey]

4 Types,

You will NEVER get to see the face of the lunatic that dreamed up and got JPA installed into the RAF, because he is one of those many faceless people that have conned the services into buying a heap of rubbish!

No one has the guts to say it's crap, and all of those at the top, from 1* upwards (and God knows there's plenty of them!) won't have a bad word said about it because.........
a) they may have been involved in it, and.......
b) most of them want a job in industry when they call it a day from the service.

I have yet to hear a good thing said about JPA, and yet CAS is asking people what's the matter?? and why are the boys pi$$ed off?? I'll bet JPA would soon be sorted out if he or his mates had their pay screwed up!

God help us!

TSM

[GasFitter]

You should retract your comment about people like me (who are prepared to tell it as it is)
Why? Just because I'm telling YOU how it is?
What utter nonesence you speak.
You should've spoken to a Scribbly or a Blunty and learned to spell! Moreover, I didn't say anything ... I wrote it!
How does it make your job any harder by me having a moan?
You've obviously never been a team player ... oh yes ... you mentioned that you didn't do sport!
I left, not because it was too hard, on the contrary.
So you left because it was easy! That's a first. At least it gave you valuable time to come on here and give AQ/HIG et al a morale boost.
Stations and Sqns were being run by PTIs, Rocks, Blunties and Scribblies and faceless civilians
Teamwork ... I refer you to my sporting comment above!
have some niff-naff form filled in rarther than going to the sandpit yet again on ops.
Spelling. See my comment on Scribblies, Blunties etc above .....
I didn't have boarding school allowance thank you. My kids went to the local secondary school, Let us hope they can spell better than you can!
I wish I had had the time to use the sports facilities, travel and social life that you elude to.
Time Management Courses were also available. Your 'valuable' time could have been spent in the Gym rarther than moaning like 'ten-men' to anyone that wants to read it on here ... bolstering the morale of our adversaries.:=

Barrack Room Lawyers are all talk ... no trousers. The last thing we need on Ops is 'Bleaters' like you ... indirectly supporting the other side.

Thanks mate ... NOT!

[wokkameister]

Gasfitter,

I take it you are Navy by the use of 'Crabfats'.

Firstly, unless I missed the Carrier Group on Kajaki Dam, what do you know about the Taliban?

Secondly, why do you feel the need to post on a thread concerning the CAS?

Knob off and find your own argument. This is ours.

WM

[monkeybumhead]

Now was the person responsible for JPA being pushed through not a certain senior sir who's surname begins with L and the rest sounds like odour?

On the subject of those lower down the food chain not telling those higher up things are either $hitty, or about to get that way. Where I work the FS, along with numerous SNCOs/JNCOs told those above their vision for improvement was a disaster waiting to happen. Their response? Don't care, make it work or you can kiss goodbye to any advancement past your current rank Flight. Net result is one pi$$ed of section about to loose a very good FS and things about to get worse.

[Biggus]

Reference the comments in post 63 about passing concerns, problems, issues, the true state of play, etc up the command chain - in many (most?)cases they already know.

In the past 15 months I have had a Sqn Ldr, Wg Cdr and Gp Capt all in my direct command chain PVR. People on pprune and e-goat complain that when they leave/PVR nobody asks them why. Has it never occurred to you that on some occassions it is because they already know most of the issues that have made you leave? I have had guys in my section PVR, and I already know without a lengthy interview most of the reasons why - they are the same problems that effect me daily!

What I am about to say now is anectdotal (spelling?), but I have heard of an AOC, 1 and 2*s, Stn Cdrs, Wg Cdr squadron bosses all PVRing, things that were unheard of until recently. Knowledge of this must surely have reached the top.

I believe the 4*s are aware of many of the problems, but that doesn't mean they can solve them. CAS can't fix JPA overnight, nor is he allowed to ditch it!

CAS is no doubt looking to build the RAF into what it needs to be by say 2015, that is part of his job, when we will have Typhoon, A400M, Astor, MRA4, Predator, etc.... But he also needs to be able to adequately man the RAF of 2015, with highly motivated, trained personnel, and from where I sit that part of the plan doesn't look like it is working!

[SRENNAPS]

The Royal Air Force, in it entirety, is no different to a Sqn – It will have its ups and downs in morale.

You can have a Sqn where morale is superbly high. In the space of 6 months that morale can plummet; all it takes is a few key players (i.e. characters) to be posted and a few bad apples posted in. You know the ones I mean: they don’t attend beer calls or any Sqn functions, eager to get away as soon as possible and they will always find reasons why the job can’t be done rather than it can be done.

When I joined the RAF in 78, I joined an Air Force that had recently lost a lot of people, aeroplanes and good postings. The RAF had recently pulled out of the Far East. It was shrinking rapidly. In fact my father had left in 1977 and he was a little bit concerned that I was joining. All in all morale was on a bit of a low.

However, the eighties brought the Falklands, a surge in the cold war (cruise missile and Greenham Commen etc, etc) and Tornado taking over Germany. It climaxed in 1991 with GW1. Morale just got better and better. During the late eighties and early nineties morale was at a peak. However (and this is only my opinion) after about 1997 morale started to go down again.

As a Sqn person, in one of four corners of Bruggen and a short tour on the SH force, we noticed that more and more people came out of the woodwork to cash in on the morale party. They introduced more and more petty rules such as CCS, fitness tests, IIP and tick in the box QA programs. They even told us how we should deploy to a bare based airfield in the desert.

The biggest problem was the way they portrayed their argument; it was almost impossible for anybody to counter it. Everybody that worked hard and deployed for several months of the year away suffered.

Then it got worse after GW2. “Lean” became the new buzz word. Manpower in the most hardworking of places was cut. Again people were told how to do their jobs by people that did not have a clue. Change after change took place; Forward and Depth replaced 1st and 2nd line and suddenly Sqn engineers and junior aircrew just became a pool of manpower. Finally JPA came along……no need to say any more on that subject.

The non deployable RAF have a lot of bad apples at the moment and they really do not help the real hard workers that actually do the work. A lot of those bad apples sit here on pprune arguing, slagging off and pretending to be whiter than white. They very much have a glass half empty attitude. These people will leave one day and they will be replaced by characters that will play in the big team.

And finally, a message to “The Swinging Monkey”, with respect to my flawed argument. Glenn was at Bruggen and morale was mega high. From what I can gather everybody that has met him thinks he is a top bloke. He rose above the rest, not because he was a yes man but because he was/is good. But a single man cannot get rid of the disease of bad morale overnight.
I have left the Royal Air Force recently; morale was probably at the lowest that I have ever known in 29 years. But it will bounce back with leaders like Glenn. And all the bad apples will either retire or put their money where their mouths are and PVR.

My question to CAS:

When you get rid of the bad apples will you let me join again – cause I loved it?

[johnny99]

Sir, did you know that yon RICKIT fellow you asked to report on comms put the feelers out on the internet - what a daftie eh? Oh and by the way, whatever happened to Calimero?

[wokkameister]

SRENNAPPS- You can have my job mate. I joined the RAF in 1988 and have seen good and bad times, but nothing like today.

I agree with your chronilogical history of Air Force morale, but fundamentally disagree with your outcome. I try really bloody hard to contribute, and to leave a place better for my having been there. I strive hard to ensure that I pass on everything of use, and nothing of little use to the Front-line aircrew I train.
I have the greatest of respect for the Engineers I know (very few post-leaning, as they have been culled to dangerous levels and taken off the squadrons).
I lead by example, taking my turn with the crappiest of tasks, and having an early night when I would much rather be getting in as the world rises. I defend my lads, and support my bosses(Flt/Sqn/Stn level).
I have 2 and a half years left, and am sure the RAF would dearly like me to stay to 55, but they have nothing to offer.
Ther is nothing the poster can offer me, but more of the same. As I spend each day trying to achieve success, I am blocked, sandbagged, blindsided and generally dragged down by a plethora of people who either don't understand, don't care, or just can't be bothered.
Everyday brings a new PI, regulation or target. Focus shifts and the trivial surpasses new levels of priority.
It is in short, like swimming the channel blindfolded and with your arms and legs tied, whilst men in boats shout contradictory advice.
Does CAS care? Yes, he probably does, yet it continues day after day. He stated earlier in the year that 'distraction' was an issue that bothered him. He must have been talking about lack of it, as it has sky rocketed this year and seems set to reach stratospheric levels.
I'm in the minority here. I love my job, wouldn't fly any other type (despite the crap lifestyle and danger that goes with it) and will continue to give 500%.
But come late 2010, I'm off and someone else can replace me. On our Flt, 45 % are LCR and 20 % first tourists. Good luck!

WM

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

That is the crux of the problem, we are going to let the poster above and hundreds like them walk away saddened, disillusioned and feeling thoroughly let down. Instead of addressing his issues and encouraging him to stay and continue to give his very best, which we desperately need we will ignore him and lose another one of our most valuable assets.

No I do not know him but I do know many like him and despair at where we are heading.

[GasFitter]

Gasfitter,
I take it you are Navy by the use of 'Crabfats'.
Wrong. Additionally, I've served with the Senior Service (including Submariners) in AFG ... and that's not bad for a land-locked country.

Firstly, unless I missed the Carrier Group on Kajaki Dam, what do you know about the Taliban?

Where I operated, more than you would probably like to know, including an exchange that killed a German colleague of mine. Not quite first name terms, as I didn't feel it was the time and place to ask them.

Secondly, why do you feel the need to post on a thread concerning the CAS?

Because he's my Boss and I'm fed up with the public whinging and moaning of 'so-say' people who think they are doing the Service a favour by posting their (sometimes valid) concerns on a public forum that does little to actually help.

Knob off and find your own argument. This is ours.

Thanks for the invite, but no, this is mine as much as it is yours. I just offer an alternative opinion to those who feel like operating like a Left-Wing Trade Union Shop Stewards against the Service I'm proud of, that has issues, but aren't served by the public moaning of the serving dissaffected and recently released members with a grudge. I personally feel that those on Ops could do with a better kind of support ... Thank You Very Much WM

[plans123]

CAS can't fix JPA overnight, nor is he allowed to ditch it!

Maybe we should get someone with a big enough set of swingers to turn round and say - JPA is not fit for service, take it away until it is. :}

[Brain Potter]

Gasfitter,

Are you saying there is no level to which the service could sink before you would express your dissatisfaction? You'll just take the pain no matter what damage you see inflicted by crass policies.

Everyone has done a hell of a lot of 'just getting on with it' over the past few years and none of our leaders have drawn a line and said "enough" as the politicians push more commitments and less resources. To me that would indicate that this will continue until, one way or another, they get finally get the message that we can take no more.

With such wet middle management, I think some folks hope that sentiments posted on boards like these might actually get through to the upper management. As much as journalists are overtly reviled, some of the recent articles that seek to reflect the current sorry state of the armed forces must have have had some research based on internet forums.

You're assertion that our despair gives succour to enemies may carry some truth. But who is responsible for the morale of the troops? The troops themselves! The responsibility for the state of our armed forces lies with the government and the top servicemen. It must truly be a first for the modern British Military to be asked to fight nasty 2 wars abroad by a government who won't provide sufficient money to do so. After these 2 wars are over we will be totally spent. Furthermore, how do you think Gordon Brown will view the defence budget with no ongoing operations.

Don't blame servicemen for complaining when it is the only form of protest available short of leaving. If everyone that you class as a "whinger" did leave, your job would become intolerable and you would leave. Critical Mass I think they call it.

[GasFitter]

BP

Dissatisfaction should be expressed. It's good for an organization to have healthy debate on what is good and what is not. I just don't think that a public forum is the best way, as it gives 'oxygen of hope' to those who we oppose. There are better ways.

[Exrigger]

Gasfitter and BP you make good points, but I will ask Gasfitter;

If historically all those still in/recently left the service who are/have been highlighting all these problems to their management (who patently do not pass them upwards) and get threatened (promotion, posting etc) or ignored as morale and loss of life continues due to lack of commitment/resources/interest from those at the top, could you please enlighten us all on what those 'better ways of doing this' are that you elude to, or is the forum not the place that you can detail the right way in which the current members should get their concerns aired and possibly sorted.

[wokkameister]

Gasfitter - I find you very odd!

In some ways, I admire your dogged loyalty, despite the fact you seem to be a lone voice. In a way, it is an endearing quality.

But referring to your own service as 'whinging crabfats' is har to reconcile with the above.

It's almost as if you love the RAF and the CAS, but none of the other members, and certainly none of the ones with an opinion.

Good luck when we have all gone. It may well change for the better as new blood enters with no knowledge of what the RAF used to be, but I don't think so.

Apologies for accusing you of being RN, but you do give that impression.

WM

[BEagle]

Dear CAS,

1. Have you ever heard of the word "No"?
2. If the answer to 1 is "Yes", have you ever used the word "No" to politicians?
3. If not, why not?
4. Do you know what happens when you stretch things beyond their elastic limit?
5. If not, why not?

[monkeybumhead]

Plans

There is more chance of this government giving the armed forces consideration and decent funding.

[charliesbar]

CAS

Do you think that pprune is part of the problem or part of the cure?

[endplay]

Left in Sep and have just logged on to see how you're coping without me. Same old same old it appears. Saddamslovechild suggested utilising the AFBLT. It appears to have escaped everyones notice but the AFBLT was disbanded in 2005 following, but "apparently" unrelated to, a highly critical report from the team representing the views of the very people with whom CAS now wishes to engage. He wasn't CAS then, of course, but his current boss was and I doubt that the reluctance of the airships (or is that heads) to acknowledge bad news has improved with time. It was the first report not to be released and perhaps that tells you something.

Accept it guys. The military will always be the poor reltion of the public sector. Tommy this etc, and each of us, sorry you, has to weigh up the pros and cons and make a decision about staying in or not. If you choose to stay then stay safe and squeeze every last drop out that you can but remember: no one likes a miserable bugger so lighten up.

[GasFitter]

In some ways, I admire your dogged loyalty, despite the fact you seem to be a lone voice. In a way, it is an endearing quality.

On this forum, yes, you seem to be right. Not many supporting me, but it's still what I genuinely feel.

But referring to your own service as 'whinging crabfats' is har to reconcile with the above.

I was trying to get others to see our Service from the perspective of the other two Services. We do have a bit of a reputation .... there must be someone who agrees with me on that one? I just didn't want to unnecessarily live up to it!

It's almost as if you love the RAF and the CAS, but none of the other members, and certainly none of the ones with an opinion.


I'm proud of the Service and I've worked for CAS during TELIC and met him on a couple of occasions afterwards, and have found him to be a genuinely interested and professional officer. I know of many others who would agree with that. Please don't confuse disagreement with disliking. As I've previously stated, healthy debate is a good thing, it's where it is done that I find uncomfortable.

Good luck when we have all gone. It may well change for the better as new blood enters with no knowledge of what the RAF used to be, but I don't think so.

The RAF has always been full of those who 'remember the good old days'. The world changes and therefore we need to change with it.

Apologies for accusing you of being RN, but you do give that impression. Fair Call ... No Offence taken!

Those who think that the Heads of the three Services are not involved in politics are, in my opinion very, very naive in the extreme.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Gas Fitter

Ref your comment.......
'I just don't think that a public forum is the best way, as it gives 'oxygen of hope' to those who we oppose'

Why are you still here ?? Or are you some secret 'mole' for CAS maybe???
hmmmmmmmmmm

TSM

[Widger]

Gasfitter,
WOKKAMEISTER Said.

I take it you are Navy by the use of 'Crabfats'.

Firstly, unless I missed the Carrier Group on Kajaki Dam, what do you know about the Taliban?


The RAF does not have a monopoly on going to hot and sandy places. Last autumn 50% of UK forces in Afghanistan were Royal Navy and a fresh element has just deployed.

So why do you need to apologise for suggesting he was Navy?:ok:


Lieutenant Andrew McLachlan, of 40 Commando said:

"This deployment is well suited to the nature and ethos of the Royal Marines. Military force can only be part of the solution. We will be there to help with the development and reconstruction of the area, but are robust enough to stop those intent on undermining the work already achieved. Conditions will be tough but 40 Commando are well equipped and well prepared for the task."

Working alongside their colleagues from the Army and RAF, the Royal Marines will also be joined by a large deployment of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm who will be supporting the efforts on the ground.

The Royal Marine Commandos will also work alongside and support the Afghan security forces as they continue to develop and take on a greater role in providing security to the province.

It is a tri-service and multi-national operation.

Keep safe and stop wingeing:ok:

[GasFitter]

Or are you some secret 'mole' for CAS maybe???
Yes, you're absolutely right! CAS has nothing better to do than sit and look at this Thread, or establish a post for someone to do his bidding for him! God forbid that there may be someone out there that MAY just think that CAS has a difficult job and is trying to do his best, and that actually, there may be some successes out there. At times, it's like reading Private Fraser's Blog from Dad's Army (if he'd had one!) ... "WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!"

[Top Right]

At #85 Wokkameister reported how CAS was concerned about "distractions". Someone else mentioned on a different thread an old flight safety video called Distractions, with that comedy actor O'Sullivan (Robert/Richard?). I recall he spends his morning pre-sortie being frustrated and angered by stupid rules, system failings and "no can do" attitudes, with the outcome being either an incident or accident. These days we seem to have many Service-induced frustrations and distractions. Time to dig out the video?

[The Helpful Stacker]

I believe some people are needlessly dragging this thread on. 'Gasfitter' has already said we're all just whinging and it seems as if everything is fine in the world of military aviation.:rolleyes:

I wonder if 'Gasfitter' works as a guard on 'that' train?

[wokkameister]

The RAF does not have a monopoly on going to hot and sandy places. Last autumn 50% of UK forces in Afghanistan were Royal Navy and a fresh element has just deployed.

So why do you need to apologise for suggesting he was Navy?:ok:


Lieutenant Andrew McLachlan, of 40 Commando said:

"This deployment is well suited to the nature and ethos of the Royal Marines. Military force can only be part of the solution. We will be there to help with the development and reconstruction of the area, but are robust enough to stop those intent on undermining the work already achieved. Conditions will be tough but 40 Commando are well equipped and well prepared for the task."

Working alongside their colleagues from the Army and RAF, the Royal Marines will also be joined by a large deployment of the Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm who will be supporting the efforts on the ground.

The Royal Marine Commandos will also work alongside and support the Afghan security forces as they continue to develop and take on a greater role in providing security to the province.

It is a tri-service and multi-national operation.



Fair Call, just 2 points.

1. You probably wouldn't like to be referred to as 'RAF', and may well expect an aplogy when pointed out, maybe?

2. I seem to regard the RM as a seperate entity (as many of they do), rightly or wrongly. They don't sit well as a quasi-RAF Regiment RN trade.

Apolgies for the offence!

WM

[Climebear]

IIRC the Royal Marines are not part of the Royal Navy though they are, together with the Royal Navy, part of the Naval Service.

[GasFitter]

Top Right

These days we seem to have many Service-induced frustrations and distractions. Time to dig out the video? I think you're absolutely right!

egdg

The figure for option leavers and PVRs is, of course, highly visible. How can they get it so wrong and leave? When I joined the Service in the 80's and unemployment was sitting at 3.25M, there wasn't a great exodus! PVR rates are alays higher during periods of good opportunities outside. Just look at those pilots who left around 9/11 and couldn't get back in quick enough!

THS

as if everything is fine in the world of military aviation. It's not that there can't be improvement, it's just not ALL so bad and I object to those who think that moaning like ten-men in public is somehow supporting their 'mates'.


It seems that suddenly there is a 'You're either with us, or against us', George Bush type of argument. Anyone suggesting that it's not all bad is a heretic. Well if you think life is as simple as 'Yes' or 'No' or 'Black' or 'White', then you can't handle a little complexity!:ok:

[wokkameister]

Black and white is not a problem, it's the several shades of sand colour that seem to cause a trifle of unrest. Oh, and the RPG's and AK47's.

I think I can handle a little complexity. So can many other people. Thats why they are not scared to leave, rather than blindly following the caravan over the edge and into the abyss.

cap, yours, fitting well perhaps?

[GasFitter]

I can't be that bad if you're still in.

Or would be rather flying the TA around every weekend over Salisbury Plain?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"can't be that bad if you're still in."

Whilst I was never of the opinion you were that convincing that particularly stupid statement makes you look the clown that most on here accuse you of :rolleyes:

There are a whole swathe of good folk who are either stuck in the pension/education/mortgage trap who, should they choose to walk simply could not command the sort of wage they are currently paid.

There are plenty of good folk in all walks of life in exactly the same boat, go look at the MOD Redundancy thread on here and wonder how many of those people currently think life is a bowl of cherries.

The facts are that plenty of people with marketable skills are simply walking away from the military which reflects their complete dissatisfaction with their current terms of employment whilst there are thousands of cases, and i suspect WM is one of them, of folks who are simply hunkering down to see out their last few years to get the pension etc that their years of sacrifice so richly deserve.

If you took your head out of the sand/arse you might just start to understand what you are being told but as you assume that because people stay in they must be happy with their lot this I feel directly reflects the depth of your knowledge on this thorny issue :=

[wokkameister]

Thank you Sir. Well said!

WM

[Affirmatron]

I've only stayed in because I can't find JPA's PVR section!

[GasFitter]

Father Xmas isn't real.

The tooth fairy isn't real.

There are no jobs for life anymore.

Life's tough!

There's no conscription, we're all volunteers.

Your Forum name is VERY apt!

[ZH875]

I've only stayed in because I can't find JPA's PVR section!

It doesn't work.

(Just like most of JPA)

[GasFitter]

egdg

Your source is about as reliable as seldomfitforpurpose!

Now, banning leave ... that would make me think about leaving ... but not whinge like 'ten-men' on a public forum. I'd just get on with it. It must beat telling everyone how bad it all is ... and then staying in!:ugh:

[angryma]

Why does my son not require mortar protection when he finally gets to sleep after flying 14 hrs and 10 sectors?

Does he look more military if he wears his uniform to eat on his one day off after working the previous 10, isnt the fact he's doing his job military enough?

Why is he on his 7th operational detachment this year when his Boss promised the wives only 3 a year?

Why does he have to reach a fitness level in his mid 30s higher than that required to join when he was 18, (twice a year)?

Is duty of care a dead issue at Air rank despite thankfully being alive and kicking at his junior level?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Gas,

With regards to the above your shout :rolleyes:

[GasFitter]

.... all very good questions, but they won't get answered on a public forum! That's always been my point. Not the place to get good answers if that's what the author wants. It does nothing to help the lads out there, more comfort for the 'opposition', but it might be a little cathartic for those who think they're helping!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Just watching a re run of an Ali - Frazier fight, probably way before your time John but these were two genuine warriors........but i digress.

As I watch Ali win on a TKO I am giggling as my imagination wanders back to this thread and I try to depict Dusty Bin or any of his cohorts delivering early morning "orders" and stating that "Aiiiiyee I have read Prune and the Infidel are on the run"

You really do need to sort your self out chap as the egdg description is starting to sound pretty accurate...........:=

As regards your 14:31 post........In the last few days had a guy signed on to age 55 with the probable offer of PA spine.........job for life maybe........advice.........research before posting you twit :p

[GasFitter]

When the going get's tough we look towards the officers and SNCOs of our fine Service to keep it all going .... not bleat on and on about how 'how hard it all is'.

I wouldn't want you anywhere near the 'first XV' when the bullets start flying!

"What shall we do, Sir", say the troops.
"I tell you what, let's have a good bleat on PPrune, that'll make us all feel better!"
"Right you are, Sir! That'll win us the battle!"
There's a chain of command ... use it! Any half decent officer should know that, not whinge to the world and anyone else who wants to listen!


Not bad ... joining after 'A' Levels and then getting offered a full career to 55! I DON'T THINK SO! That's not a 'job for life'!

To quote someone else on this Forum:
........advice.........research before posting you twit:p :ok::ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Gas you really are starting to sound quite silly now :rolleyes:

How about joining at 16, serving to age 55 then leaving with an index linked pension that will always be more than sufficient to mean both Mrs SFFP and I can retire and never work again :D .............now about that job for life you say no longer exists :ouch:

Oh and there are plenty of guys approaching 40 who will be offered the same terms of service that I have so there are lots more "jobs for life" still to come :ok:

As I said ........advice.........research before posting you twit:p

[GasFitter]

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were offered a Service to 55 when you joined at 16!

[PARALLEL TRACK]

Gas Fitter

This is my first post (ever) and you are just winding people up! You are either d*cking for somebody in the upper echelons or you are a complete d*ck! One of the problems with complaining through the chain of command these days is that nobody is listening.

//trk

[Exrigger]

PARALLEL TRACK, this has been pointed out by several people, but he chooses to ignore this fact.

Gasfitter: just to answer that last comment, when I joined up at the age of 15 1/2 (I cannot remember if this was apprentices only) we could stay in to age 55 if WE wanted to, that is what we were offered and signed for, we also had reserved rights to the next rank up when qualified by time to hold that next rank, the double Seniority promotion list (commonly known as the old and bold list), all these parts of the 'contract' started being removed from 1980 onwards, so now you can only remain in if you are a certain rank by a certain time and the RAF wish to retain you.

[GasFitter]

PARALLEL TRACK:
You are either d*cking for somebody in the upper echelons or you are a complete d*ck!

Nice addition to the debate. I think you may have really won the argument with that one PARALLEL TRACK!

It seems that I've managed to uncover ANOTHER whinger. Sorry everyone, that wasn't my intent!:rolleyes:


Exrigger:
Thanks for clearing up my statement that there aren't any guaranteed 'Jobs For Life' in the Service any more. When you join, you have to reach a certain rank, sometimes within a certain time, sometimes if there are still spaces in branch/trade, before being offered an extension to Service, which obviously isn't a guaranteed 'Job for Life' on joining. I just remember the plight of the Jnr Tech Armourers in the mid-nineties who, despite some top quality blokes, were shown the door. Very, very unfortunate for some good blokes.:sad: Unless of course your Seldomfitforpurpose, who knows someone who has just been signed on to 55 at aged 16! Mind you, I think SFFP impending pension with Mrs SFFP may have affected his memory, as in the same post he says guys approaching 40 will be offered the same .... but that's not a 'job for life' on joining!
Oh well, I'll keep earning my tax to pay his pension so that he come onto PPRUNE and tell everyone how cr@p the RAF is and it was all better in his day!


Sound like he's only in it for the pension ...!:hmm::hmm::hmm:

[Exrigger]

Gasfitter, my post was to confirm that when I joined up it was deemed a 'job for life at age 16' and you had effectively been signed on to age 55 at age 16, so in that respect SFFP was correct. I was asked if I wanted to sign on for 22, then at the 22 year point was asked if I still wanted to sign on to age 55 to which I agreed, but then had to leave at age 47 as I had not reached Flt Sgt rank, this despite having been asked and agreed to remain in to age 55. I accept that this 'job for life' has not been the case for some time.

[4mastacker]

If I may add my two pennorth to the 'job for life' discussion.

I joined as an apprentice stacker and the terms of service offered before I took HM's shilling were either 9 years plus three in the reserve or a straight 12 stretch for which I would receive the princely sum of £250 on completion.

However, after sucessfully escaping from Hereford as a fully-sledged SAC, I was offered service to age 55, which I declined at the time. Later on, I decided to go for the age 55 option but that was because domestic distractions other than darts, beer and having a good time laid greater claim on my financial resources.

GasFitter will view that as support for his comment that people are only in it for the pension. I looked at it another way: I enjoyed what I was doing.

[SRENNAPS]

ExRigger,

Sorry mate but I fail to see how you could have been offered service to 55 and then told to leave at 47 because you failed to make Flt Sgt. Many years ago certain Chiefs were able to sign on to 55 because they had reserve rights. To my knowledge none were told to leave.

The rules then changed and when you made the rank of SNCO you were offered 22 years with the later ability to sign to 47. If you made Fly Sgt you could then go to 55.

Then they introduced LOS 30 which meant most of us could extend to age 48, but unless you made Flt Sgt by that age you could still not sign on to 55.

It has always been a bone of contention because (and this is only a hypothetical example) an admin or PTI Sgt could become a Fly Sgt after approx 6 years and get signed on to 55 but a techie had to get promoted to Chief Tech first after approx 6 years, then do another approx 6 years to get Flt Sgt – 12 years in total before being able to sign on to 55.

How fair was that???

It did not help that between the different aircraft trades promotion times could be so radically different. i.e. average promotion time for a fairy Sgt to Chief - 4 years. Sooty/Rigger Sgt to Chief, 5-6 years. Fairy Chief to Flt Sgt, 4-5 years. Sooty/Rigger Chief – not even a look in unless you were a God.

Very annoying since Flt Sgts in general did the same job (whatever the trade ) on Sqns or Sections.

And yes I am a little bit bitter.

I gave up on promotion and elected to apply for Tranche 3 redundancy. 2 weeks later I was offered promotion to Flt Sgt and was told to withdraw redundancy if I had applied, to be able to get the promotion.

Turned down promotion; got redundancy and now work for a company on the other side of the fence. Well happy.

Oh and by the way I never knew the Royal Air Force Apprentice scheme included “stackers”. I might have missed something so please enlighten me if I have.
Mind you I do miss detachments.

[ZH875]

It did not help that between the different aircraft trades promotion times could be so radically different. i.e. average promotion time for a fairy Sgt to Chief - 4 years. Sooty/Rigger Sgt to Chief, 5-6 years. Fairy Chief to Flt Sgt, 4-5 years. Sooty/Rigger Chief – not even a look in unless you were a God.

I think in all the years I have been in, the Rigger/Sooty trades got promotion much quicker than the Fairy trades.

I know of a few Fairies who went Sgt-Chief after 5 years, but none after 4.

Fairies do at least 7 years Chief to FS, most do not get to FS.

But it doesn't matter to those who stay on AFPS75, the pension is the same.

[SRENNAPS]

ZH 875,

20 years ago I would have agreed with you. But certainly not in the last 10 years.

Back in the mid to late 80's lots of fairies were “booted out or left ” and promotion was crap. 10 years later the “hand was on the other foot” (joke) and it was the Sooties/ Riggers with no promotion. You only have to look at the numbers/trades that have recently left under the latest Tranche 1,2,3 redundancy. In fact I believe that no fairies were offered tranche 3.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not slagging off fairies or admin or PTIs. Good luck to all those promoted.

I just think it is really sad that our planners have got it so badly wrong.

[Exrigger]

SRENNAPS, when I joined up in 1968 as a rigger craft apprentice I was told that my career would, if I did my bit and wanted to stay, enable me to stay to age 55, due to the reserved rights you correctly pointed out.

The career path was J/T to Cpl in 3 years, Cpl to Sgt 4 years later and Sgt to Chief after another 5 years, which should have been chief by the 12 year point.

Due to changes in the rules in 1980 I lost my reserve rights (this was my 12 year point and this was when I became a SNCO), this with the later (approx 1990) requirement to be a Flight Sgt by age 47 was what meant I could not continue to age 55.

I pointed out that these changed my original 'contract' and I was baffled by admin bulls**t with regards to the 'new rules', at one point I was informed that it was my fault I had lost my reserved rights, did I persistantly question and fight the system on these and the technical issues as well up through the chain of command - yes, with the result that I remained a Sgt for 16 1/2 years which obviously stopped me achieving Flt Sgt, I did get my Chiefs though so I got what I had worked for in the end.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Ex,

Did you ever actually sign on to 55, which is the whole thrust of SRENNPS post. If you did he, like me cannot fathom how you got booted out at 47?

If, as I was, you were offered "age 55" at an early age and decided to hold back for bets then fell fowl of the new "Age 47" criteria then you like me have no one to blame but yourself:{

I was lucky that I remustered and now find myself sitting pretty but I know of plenty of folk like your self who dipped out in this manner but I know of no one who was signed onto 55 that was forced out at 47.

[4mastacker]

"Oh and by the way I never knew the Royal Air Force Apprentice scheme included “stackers”. I might have missed something so please enlighten me if I have."

SRENNAPS

Slightly off-topic from the title of this thread.

We were titled "Administrative Apprentices (AA)" and done a 12 month course at Hereford. Also included in this scheme were the Clerks and the Cooks. We were the successors to the Boy Entrant Scheme which lasted 18 months. The first entry of Admin Apprentices - numbered in the 300 series - started in 1964 and the last one was about 10 years later. After passing-out, we were re-mustered to the trade of 'Supplier General' but that was shortened in the seventies to "Supplier". I should think that just a very few members of that scheme remain in the service.

[Topofclimb]

I voted with my feet. Byeeeeeee!

Even if you do come up with good questions you'll only get platitudes and stock answers. I've just had enough of it now.

[SRENNAPS]

4mastacker

Thanks for that info. Nearly 30 years in and I never knew. I feel quite embarrassed.

Regards

[The Helpful Stacker]

Every WO supplier I have worked for in the RAF has been an ex-apprentice or boy-entrant supplier. They are fading away into retirement gradually though.

[GasFitter]

support for his comment that people are only in it for the pension.

Your comment is slightly out of context.

My point was that there may be many people out there, who may now view the Service in a different light than when they joined, and the pull of their pension may be the main reason for 'seeing out their time' in a Service that has changed, or doesn't seem to give them the support they desire .... and I accept that may be the case. What I object to is the line that the Service is giving them something which they value .... and by the way, enough to keep them in ... but somehow feel that it's right and proper to publicly whinge about how supposedly cr@p the Service is. I'd have respect for them if they just left and said "Thank You Very Much! I enjoyed my time, but it's time for the new blood!". But they want it all ways, which suits their circumstances and then criticise others who have a contrary view!

[4mastacker]

"But they want it all ways, which suits their circumstances and then criticise others who have a contrary view!"

GasFitter

I take your point. No consolation, but it's no different out in the outside world. On balance, its probably worse. Since leaving the service I have found a whole new definition of 'selfishness'. Where even some of the whingers who are still in will give something back to the service e.g. work over until the job is finished, a lot of their civvy counterparts will just turn their head and walk on by - or, more likely, walk away if the clock has gone a milli-second past their finishing time.

SRENNAPS

No need to be embarrassed.. at least you are young enough to say "before my time , chief"

[OKOC]

S'cuse me for interupting but there seems to be quite a lot of thread creep and slagging off going on here-can we get back to Questions for CAS--as intended by the original post. Tar-raa

[L J R]

And could you please delete all posts that are not Questions for the CAS, he doesn't have time to go through all the drivel that is here.

If you want to continue the waste of bandwidth that this thread has become, please start another thread - maybe in Jet Blast or similar..

[blogger]

BACK on thread:-

CAS why have you not answered a single question? Are you to far out of touch to use a computer? If so who is logging on to JPA on your behalf to do your claims?

Has anyone ever got a satisfactory answer to any question from an air rank? Or is it always just the standard political drivel as per the norm.

[PingDit]

By the way, who does your hair?

[SRENNAPS]

Quite right – back on thread. Must remember not to allow thread drift – Hideous crime. Ban them I say…… Bandwidth so vital ……no shoot them instead….. Dammed swine!!!!!!

My questions to CAS:

Do you think the “Can Do” attitude still exists despite layer after layer of bureaucracy, accountability, niff naff rules and those that impose niff naff rules protecting their rear ends?

If you think the “Can Do” attitude still exists do you think that those that display it have a harder task these days?

Do you enjoy “Beer Calls” the way you use to?

And finally, how do you rate the quality and more importantly the attitude of “some” personnel serving in today’s Royal Air Force in comparison with those serving….say 20/25 years ago?

PM me with the answers if you would prefer.

[goudie]

Oh dear! Have just read through all these posts and have come to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) that today the RAF, in general, mirrors our society. I did my service (20years) in the '50's thro' early,70's and boy did we winge. Officers, messing, pay, work hours, bull:mad: , you name it we winged about it, it was our right!:{ But it was all hot air in the crew room and generally went no further. Then, winge over and feeling far better, we all got on with the job.:) Today, it seems the 'somebody owes me' mentality reigns supreme. Chaps you disappoint me, if you can't take joke...................................!

[Tiger_mate]

But it was all hot air in the crew room and generally went no further

It has changed because the internet was invented. Welcome to the 21st Century, enjoy your stay.

An AVM I once had lunch with answered many questions, but by far the biggest surprise was an unprompted statement that "The only people in the RAF beyond Wg Cdr, remain because they cannot get a job", which was a bit surreal at the time.

[GasFitter]

An AVM I once had lunch with answered many questions, but by far the biggest surprise was an unprompted statement that "The only people in the RAF beyond Wg Cdr, remain because they cannot get a job"
I think it says more about the AVM! Suddenly he's speaking for everyone ..... OK, I'll stop now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:oh::oh::oh:

[goudie]

You're right, mass communication for the masses by the masses. I would like to think though that people have a rant on the net and then get on with their life.

[wokkameister]

I would like to think though that people have a rant on the net and then get on with their life.

Oh I think you'd know if we didnt mate. We are doing far, far more with far, far less. If all we did was moan, youd be neck deep in trouble, especially the way Nu Labour has declared war on the Middle East.

[Biggus]

Goudie

Ah, they rant and then just get on with their life...........

That will be why the PVR rate at some RAF stations is currently quoted as 16-17%. There are embargos to prevent people from leaving from certain locations. Most people in the RAF know at least 3 people close to them leaving in the near future. There was a thread on here not long ago about all the QFIs on the Nimrod OCU having PVRed. The numbers of career list Sqn Ldrs leaving (because they consider themselves financially disadvantaged compared to PA spine Flt Lt) being unsustainable to the extent the RAF is working on a fix. The number of Sqn commanders, Stn Cdrs and supposedly even 1*s, AOCs, etc currently PVRing is previously unheard of.............

Yes, if you can't take it/a joke/the heat/etc... then leave. Unfortunately that is exactly what they are doing.....or are you from the 'those aren't the sort of people we want in the RAF anyway' mindset.....!!

Most of the people who 'whinge' on here actually are just highlighting the way things are in the hope of getting some improvements, because the normal command chain isn't working, and believe it or not, they still "care" for a service they believe is going rapidly downhill.....

It is not what it was like in the 50s-70s!!!!

[Mactlsm1]

Biggus,
Spot on!



Mac

[SRENNAPS]

It is not what it was like in the 50s-70s!!!!


So what was it like in the 50s-70s?????


I have a reasonable idea because my old man was serving then. He was also involved in Aden, Radfan and Malaya.


Only in those days you did not have the luxury of the internet and the media so conditions tended to go un-noticed by the public.

[OKOC]

If you can have a look at the FS film "Frustration"--that typifies the RAF in the 60's and 70's IMHO

[GasFitter]

.... get back on thread!

:):):):)

[VinRouge]

If CAS is serious about retaining people (which he has to be), how about the following:

1) Sort out the married quarters and the messes as priority #1. Without the support of the missus/partner in this modern world, the system wont last much longer. I am not talking about a half arsed effort. I am talking about quality accom with decent insulation, glazing and a small garden. Not crap Barratt show homes with paper thin walls, tiny rooms and postage stamp garden/ Anything less, people will continue to leave in droves.


3) get rid of the fitness test. Sack all those unable to deploy due to unfitness, sack det dodgers. Limit individuals to a maximum of 2 weeks service sports a year. I am sick of covering dets for individuals because they are swanning it up playing tennis/sailing/surfing/bungy jumping (sic) whilst the rest of us get to do even more time away.

4) Increase home to duty to 30p per mile minimum. MPs get 44p. Ever heard of inflation? Notice oil is priced now at $96 a barrel? well stop punishing us all for insufficient service quarters and having to live miles away from our unit in the only affordable housing for miles by penalising us as a result of HTD.

5) No income tax on det. Period. If you are out of the country in the sandy place, you dont pay income tax.

6) Same for council tax.

7) Bin PAYD. It is a good idea, once again poorly implemented. Dont give the sods control of the messes. The current system works, it doesnt need a complete revamp. All it will take is a list for people to sign when they eat. You dont eat, you dont pay. Any budget shortfall should be paid out of the def. budget.

8) Tell the government we wont do any future ops without the proper kit. Read into this: Servicable modern suitable aircraft, sufficient parts, sufficient servicing/ops personel, appropriate DAS, suitable Logistics, sufficient AT and SH. Its all well and good having 232 eurofighters, but 232 eurofigters cant move a single bag or single squaddie to where they are needed. Expiditionary warfare? The clue is in the name. You cant commit to it without being able to move lots of stuff very quickly over long distances, in a sustainable manner. You quite simply need to double up on our AT/SH assets. Anything less wont do.

9) Stop doing things "top Down". Start doing things "bottom up" Its the people below you that know what needs fixing. You might start to hear the truth if your senior officers are held responsible for decisions they make in post; to this end, Grp Capt posts and above should be a minimum of 4 years tour length. If they dont like it, tough. Service before self I am afraid, and the sevices needs far outweigh individual career progression.

I dont doubt CAS is tring his best, but unless some of the above, or something else as groundbreaking is delivered, I can see a critical mass being reached pretty soon from where we will be an inefective force.

[RETDPI]

Senior officers are held responsible for decisions they make in post; to this end, Grp Capt posts and above should be a minimum of 4 years tour length.

Interesting point.
How many of us are bitterly familiar with the :
"He cocked it totally, then moved on and up; leaving his successor to pick up the devastation" syndrome.

[4mastacker]

"He cocked it totally, then moved on and up; leaving his successor to pick up the devastation" syndrome."

Isn't that the position CAS now finds himself in? Would it be fair to say that the problems that have been highlighted in this thread haven't just happened overnight on the current gentleman's watch?

[Al R]

Nicely expressed VR.

[GasFitter]

Tell them to get stuffed when they insist we wear uniform all over the place

What's the alternative in a military Service? Flip flops and 'Hard Rock Cafe' T-Shirts?

get rid of the fitness test. Sack all those unable to deploy due to unfitness

How do you get rid of someone for being unfit if there is no fitness test?

Limit individuals to a maximum of 2 weeks service sports a year. I am sick of covering dets for individuals because they are swanning it up playing tennis/sailing/surfing/bungy jumping (sic) whilst the rest of us get to do even more time away.


More 'Donut Eating, Playstation GamesMeisters'! They're trying to keep fit by doing sports, to pass their non-existant fitness test, in case they get 'sacked'! If you can't beat 'em .... join 'em!

Bin PAYD
It's what the troops wanted for many, many years .. and now they've got it. What people didn't realise was that the quality of food was based on a proportion of those who paid, not eating. Try getting a breakfast, 2 course lunch and dinner for £3 something! Very difficult, but it's what people wanted. So the Top Brass were listening on that one.

Grp Capt posts and above should be a minimum of 4 years tour length

4 years with a bad Staish!!!!! Wow, that might hurt! Especially when people think he won't be listening because they're ALL trying implementing a 'Top Down' approach and looking after themselves and promotion..... APPARENTLY!

Some really juicy stuff in there VR!;)

[VinRouge]

What's the alternative in a military Service? Flip flops and 'Hard

Rock Cafe' T-Shirts?How about letting us chill out for 5 minutes in between getting shot at, flying aircraft with a million snags and rocketted? There are certain groups of the military that are devoid of the bullSh*t, so why not all of us? Why do I find myself as a flt lt having my room inspected by an RSM on "health and safety grounds"?

How do you get rid of someone for being unfit if there is no fitness test?Quite simple. On the understanding that you get RTU'd from theatre as a result of your fitness, you get binned on the spot.

More 'Donut Eating, Playstation GamesMeisters'! They're trying to keep fit by doing sports, to pass their non-existant fitness test, in case they get 'sacked'! If you can't beat 'em .... join 'em!Maybe so. But you get trained to go to war, and SOME use the RAF sports card as an excuse to not deploy as often as they could. I suppose its a personal pride thing and not wanting to det-dodge. If you suggest if you cant beat them join them is the right idea, I suggest you are lacking the team ethos the RAF ingrained in me from day 1.

It's what the troops wanted for many, many years .. and now they've got it. What people didn't realise was that the quality of food was based on a proportion of those who paid, not eating. Try getting a breakfast, 2 course lunch and dinner for £3 something! Very difficult, but it's what people wanted. So the Top Brass were listening on that one.No, its what the majority of those who could be bothered, or in fact were able, to complete the survey. I for one certainly was not asked. What people asked for was a system by which they pay for what they eat. Not Chicken mcmuggets and paying for individual slices of bread. They certainly didnt ask for a "complete solution, encompassing leisure, bar services as well as food". I would far prefer the profits from my bar bill went toward discounting my summer ball ticket than lining the pockets of some labour-supporting business greaseball. As I said above, meet the difference with the defence budget. anything less simply wont do.

4 years with a bad Staish!!!!! Wow, that might hurt! Especially when people think he won't be listening because they're ALL trying implementing a 'Top Down' approach and looking after themselves and promotion..... APPARENTLY!No, you give them the chance to choose demotion or getting turfed out for doing a **** job. nothing less than what you would expect as a more junior officer/NCO. The damage done by a ""bad staish for 4 years" would be far outweighed by the fact people would be more accountable. "Top Down" was taken directly from a briefing note I read today.

4mastacker (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=183597), agreed completely. CAS, an outstanding character no doubt, IMHO has been handed what could be considered the most difficult brief as a CAS since WW2. Of course, it all comes down to money. And with fiscal tightening, decreasing tax revenues and a possible recession, it isnt going to come easily. Unfortunately, if this government want to project its strategy to the Far East, they are going to have to pay the appropriate price.

[L J R]

VR for CAS
VR for CAS
VR, VR, VR for CAS


Hoorahh!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

VR,

Apart from your theory on the fitness test I thought yours was a top post. I believe a fitness test if PROPERLY implemented is a valuable tool in doing exactly what you advocate.........getting rid of unfit people. We know the current system is completely flawed however the notion of testing for fitness is sound.

As regards GF I think you should simply ignore him/her as there is definite evidence to support egdg's post 113..............TROLL :rolleyes:

[GasFitter]

Nice comebacks ... I don't necessarily agree with them, but still good.

If you suggest if you cant beat them join them is the right idea, I suggest you are lacking the team ethos the RAF ingrained in me from day 1.


I was suggesting that some good exped training / skiing / mountaineering / sailing ... all round sporty activity, is open to all and has extremely good benefits. In my experience (being involved with RAF representative sport), there are a lot of guys out there who do respresent the Service (as it was a recruiting hook by the RAF Careers Office) and feel very guilty about doing so. In my opinion, they shouldn't.

its what the majority of those who could be bothered, or in fact were able, to complete the survey.

You can't ask opinion and then fill in the gaps of those who don't bother in which ever way it suits you. That would be naughty.
As for SFFP:

As regards GF I think you should simply ignore him/her as there is definite evidence to support egdg's post 113

He's got a thing about thinking that people who have a contrary view must be NCOs and/or airman ... not sure what it's about ... just ignore him. Barrack Room Lawyer I think ... doesn't like people disagreeing with her.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"In my experience (being involved with RAF representative sport), there are a lot of guys out there who do respresent the Service (as it was a recruiting hook by the RAF Careers Office) and feel very guilty about doing so"

In 33 years I have yet to meet one :rolleyes:

[GasFitter]

In 33 years I have yet to meet one

You should get out there and talk to the troops .... like they taught us at Cranners ... and .... (J)OCC .... BSC/ICSC!

[VinRouge]

Its a lot easier to "talk to the troops" whilst they are off playing sport than catching up with them in the desert no doubt! :}

[airborne_artist]

You should get out there and talk to the troops .... like they taught us at Cranners ... and .... (J)OCC .... BSC/ICSC!

MBWA - Management By Wandering Around (http://www.nenh.com/articles/20040908-03.html)

Amazing what you learn when you just go up to people and start talking to them about their job, life, family, football team etc. - it's the best tool in the box, but very rarely used. Notice, though, how some of the most respected senior (and not so senior) ranks are very good at it.

[GasFitter]

Top Post!:ok:

[RETDPI]

Who was the AOC who would pitch up at a stn ranked as a sgt or similar, & sound out the boys & girls for the true stories??

Sounds like Paddy Bandon (the Abandoned Earl).

There were other lovely stories ,such as an AOC's being done by the AOC and Station Commander on a couple of RAFP Motor Bikes.

Regrettably, I fear these were legends even during the 70's.

"The Song was over"

The sad little men in grey took their place.

[OKOC]

Chaps and chapesses, is there any chance of getting back to the original point of this thread or, if not, can the author retitle it "general winges and another area to blow off steam"--both of which I must say would be top topics in my book.

[threeputt]

That sounds very much like it could have been the infamous Phil Lagesson when he was AOC 1Gp, at Bawtry in the mid to late 70's. He also carried a small stick and would poke it in your gut on meeting you!

A top bloke, I remember him coming into the 50 Sqn crewroom and demanding a game of pool with the Sqn CO; Wg Cdr away flying, Flt Cdr's skiving in the mess and I think I was the senior Flt Lt present so duly let the old man win, didn't do me any good though! He died a few years ago in South Africa.

3P:ok:

[RETDPI]

Lagesson (as you say a seef effrican ) was certainly in a particular mould.

The pace stick jabbed in the corpulence was combined with the assertation :

"Get it off man, get it off!

Now long gone days.

I miss them.

[cornish-stormrider]

Only one question (possibly) to CAS.

As a taxpayer, aka your boss I ask.

1. Why is your service Hemmoraging staff and morale?
2. Why is whats left falling down around their ears?
3. Where are the men telling you this?
4. Why are troops being sent out under equipped, supported and relieved?
5. Why does nearly every new project spiral way over budget?
6. Why does civilianising and outsourcing benefit the troops?
7. Why do you think a company that makes a profit and whose primary responsibility is to its shareholders should be allowed within the main gate of any station?
8. Would you make any inquiry into the relationships with these companies and past/present senior officers?
9. Do you know what the corruption means?
10. Do you know what the term "too many chiefs and not enough indians means"?
11. JPA? WHY?
12. How will having a civil SAR force benefit the members of HM forces downed behind enemy lines?
13. How can you sleep at night given the problems with all three services?
14. Do you regret the "Train" comments given the vast spike in PVR's
15. Why has the BOI in to the Khandahar Nimrod taken soooooo long.
16. What is your thoughts on the critical mass personnel number of the RAF.
17. How ashamed are you of the care our injured troops recieve?
18. How long before the Can Do attitude fails?
19. Are you aware that doing more with less has turned into everything with nothing?
20. Would you risk your pension on any of the above?
21. Is there a plan for conscription on the cards?

Pm me if you wish Mr Torpy (sp?)

Also you will notice the lack of respect due to the rank. Were I still serving I would pay the due compliment, but as a civvy I would not pi** on you or anyone at MOD if you were on fire. It is of my unhumble (and possibly wrong) opinion you have all sold the forces of this nation down the river.

[Exrigger]

cornish-stormrider, I can give you the theoretical answer to 6, the civilianisation/outsourcing is making savings, so we are told, those monetery savings were supposed to benefit the troops, the backside of this is it was also supposed to release more troops from depth maintenance to forward where they are deemed to be required.

Problem with the monetary savings these appear to have disappeared into the black hole of the Government/MOD, and the manpower, these same people decided to save even more by actually getting rid of them instead of using them on the frontline, as they where going to.

With regards to question 7, so what, no civvie company that produces goods works for patriotic reasons i.e. for no profit (or that does not benefit their shareholders, who are expecting a return on their money), not even the NAAFI (despite their protest to the contrary), and rather than waste existing facilities, would it not make financial sense to use them. It costs a lot more to send aircraft to a civvie site (or another RAF one) than it does to use the on station facilities.

[navibrator]

The answer came back that he understood how hard we're all working - manpower and aircraft, but that things would be great by 2015...

Thats not bad - just before 9 pm!

[wokkameister]

So,

If you have less than 8 years left, you may as well go, as you won't see any improvement. Is that it in a nutshell?

I'd say that is probably a good third of the RAF.

Hmmmm

WM

[GasFitter]

If you're still serving with less than 8 years to do ... whack in the PVR ... go on, you know you want to, that teach 'em!

:D

[wokkameister]

Out in two anyway! Though people like you do make me count the days.

WM

[GasFitter]

If you have less than 8 years left, you may as well go

Out in two anyway

You've met your own criteria, WM! Get that PVR in if it's all soooo bad! If not, there must be something keeping you in, balancing off all that 'world of doom' stuff.:cool:

[South Bound]

GF, kinda missed the point there fella. I bet what is keeping him in is the pension. No matter how much job satisfaction many of us get, the pull factors from outside and the push factors from inside are just getting too great. (WM, sorry if talking tosh on your behalf!)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

It does rather confirm the lack of reality GF currently has tho and what you allude to SB was confirmed by WM in an earlier post.........still ex Cpl who leaves rather disillusioned at 22 then it's not very surprising his fingers not on the pulse :rolleyes:

[GasFitter]

I bet what is keeping him in is the pension.

Exactly what I've been saying all along ... it ain't ALL bad! This thread just seems to fill with a load of people banging on how everything is so awful, but seem to hang around in the Service anyway, and still moan about it. I'd have more respect for them if they just went, or at least bared the hard work and complained from within, without the need to blub all over a public forum!

:):):)

[wokkameister]

Gas Fitter.

You really are a bit of a Knob. Before you gleefully rub your hands together, this is not a bite, its a statement of fact.

It's tuesday evening, and I have already worked twenty-eight hours this week. I could moan about that, but the fact is, I programmed myself to fly within that period, but I care about what I do, and want to do it to the best of my ability.
I would be the same if I worked in ASDA, and will be when I take up a new career in two years(though hopefully not with ASDA). That doesn't mean things are fine, because they aren't, a fact that seems obvious to everyone but you.
If things were peachy, I would be clammering to accept the offer to sign on til 55, instead of opting to leave at my earliest pension point (which if Seldom is believed, is the same decision you made...apart from my pension being SUBSTANTIALLY larger).
The fact that I am motivated, and contributing a great deal at home and very regularly overseas, is due to my own work ethic, not the fact that the RAF is great.
And to answer your question, if I wasn't leaving in two years, we wouldn't be having this discussion, as I would have long since PVR'd.

Now, I don't know anything about you. You are either a wind up merchant, who hasn't realised the wind up is over, or your a blind obedient fool. But I am satisfied that you are one or the other, but only you know which one. Food for thought mate.

WM

[GasFitter]

You really are a bit of a Knob

Well thanks for adding that piece of intelligent argument to the debate! Well, if disagreeing with a public moaner makes me a knob, then so be it.

I could moan about that

Well why don't you? I'm sure we'd all really love to hear it ... no honestly, we would!

but I care about what I do, and want to do it to the best of my ability.

I presume you're talking about moaning.

is the same decision you made...apart from my pension being SUBSTANTIALLY larger

Now, I don't know anything about you

Now, WM, these two comments really don't go together now, do they?

if I wasn't leaving in two years, we wouldn't be having this discussion, as I would have long since PVR'd.


... and this is my point exactly. You're happy to take the Queen's shilling, but feel as though you're somehow doing the Service that is giving many a good wage, lifestyle and pension, a big favour by slating it in public. I just feel that you want it every way! I'm not suggesting everything is rosy in the garden, it's just that there's a time and a place for making your feeling's known. I'm truly sorry that you think that the way to vent your frustration is in public, but my point remains that it does no good.

I'll put it down you being a bit 'over-tired' given your 28 hour week thus far.

On a more positive note, ASDA will be recruiting before Xmas and you might be able to transfer your pension!

GF

BTW, I somehow feel that as you're 2 years away from your earliest option and I've yet to take mine, I think your assumption is wrong!

[GasFitter]

£11000 as a pension isn't exactly a kings ransom now is it?

I suppose it doesn't matter how much it is. If it's enough to stop someone from PVRing, then it must be enough to outweigh all the pain, grief, inconvenience and hard graft that the Service require of you!

[wokkameister]

£11000 as a pension isn't exactly a kings ransom now is it? Today 23:10

No, not really. But the 50K lumpsum is better than a kick in the slats.

You're happy to take the Queen's shilling, but feel as though you're somehow doing the Service that is giving many a good wage, lifestyle and pension, a big favour by slating it in public. I just feel that you want it every way! I'm not suggesting everything is rosy in the garden, it's just that there's a time and a place for making your feeling's known. I'm truly sorry that you think that the way to vent your frustration is in public, but my point remains that it does no good.

You really are a chisler. There is no dealing with blunties like you, and I don't need to know how to wear a stable belt either.

I won't be visiting again

[GasFitter]

You really are a chisler. There is no dealing with blunties like you, and I don't need to know how to wear a stable belt either.:D:D

Best you get up the 'little wooden hill' me old, as you've had a long week already. I can see from your comments above that you're not really a team-player, but I knew that anyway from your previous posts.

Time for bed ... or is it more 'internet-dating' that's keeping you up as part of your long 'working week'?":ok:

GF:cool:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

WM,

Having in oh so many previous posts fully established your credentials as someone who has been, seen, done and bought the the t-shirt perhaps the question we should be asking GF is to offer us a resume of his experiences to date :eek:

Perhaps once we have a fuller picture of his contribution to the current Operational Tempo we can better assess his thoughts on this thread :rolleyes:

GF,

If you take WM at face/PPrune value and believe even half of his posts, accept that he will be leaving at 40 and acknowledge that his "handle" gives you an inkling of what he has probably been up to since GW1 do you not think that perhaps a little more courtesy is in order :rolleyes:

I look forward to your response with hopefully some credible and provable facts :p

[mossie_uk]

why do you people keep replying to him and giving him credence. Ignore him and he'll go away

[Hydraulic Palm Tree]

Just go into your User CP and add him to your ignore list and you will never see his posts again.

[GasFitter]

do you not think that perhaps a little more courtesy is in order

Actually ... no I don't. Why, just because he may have done Ops (which is what we're all paid to do), you feel that you can start calling people 'knobs' and 'chiselers' just because they disagree with you!

My experience: GRANBY, BANNER, BOLTON, ALLIED FORCE, RESINATE, TELIC and HERRICK. Those are my 'T-Shirts'.

[cornish-stormrider]

GF, Without wanting to break opsec, what did you do on that big long list of ops you so proudly reeled off. Sit nice an safe in some main base area and help the cheeses do things like try to rename bars? or did you actually work for a living.

WM, 28 hrs is an awful lot. know your limits fella. We ain't gpt the crews or cabs to spare if you burn out or f££k it up thru pushing too hard.

Don't let the blunties grind you down.

[RETDPI]

Indeed. One can now appreciate a bit more how "fragging" came about in the US Military.
Perhaps they described themselves as "Professional Officers" as well?

[charliesbar]

Cornish-Stormrider

I have to say I find you're post pathetic. Take out the indiviuals involved in this thread, trying to start a p**sing war about who's deployment is more worthwile/valuable is just sad and frankly disrespectful to all those who make personal sacrifices to serve in both support and teeth roles.

[Ali Barber]

Anyone got a question for CAS?

[RETDPI]

Reading this lot , I rather think he should be asking a few questions himself.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

mossie and HPT,

Thanks for that steer, first time I have used that facility but it does make reading this thread a much more pleasant experiance :ok:

[The Swinging Monkey]

GasFitter

I have read every post you have written on this forum, and I have come to the conclusion that you are either a complete idiot or someone who isn't even in the mob.

I posted this forum because I know how fed up and sick the vast majority of people are, with the exception of some of the Typhoon fleet, who have a new toy to play with! It was aimed at the rank and file of the Air force.

They are not fed up with the pay, and many aren't even fed up with living in the sand pit. They are fed up with being nibbled to death by ducks! - similar to yourself really, you just keep nibbling don't you?

You just keep harping on about the same rubbish, day-in and day-out. Well you have had a bit of fun, but now please go away and stop winding people up with your stupid postings.

Gentlemen, could I suggest that no one else rises to GasFitter bait anymore - just leave him be to wallow in his own glorification!

TSM

[GasFitter]

To be absolutely fair to you, two of the earlier ones were supporting the Ops from in-theatre HQ, so if that equates to:

help the cheeses do things like try to rename bars?

then, yes, you're right ... but I thought it was a team game!

However, certainly the last two were not and that's all I can say really.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Ah, silence is golden :p

[cornish-stormrider]

From who??, I shall never be silent. Wrong but never silent. I was tempted to reply personally to my detractors but I just could not be bothered. Back to topic.....

CAS, Sir. did you add your voice to the senior Officers comments and the forming of the "Not Union" ??

[Biggus]

Question for CAS:

When are you going to stop Nimrods doing AAR?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2826702.ece

[GasFitter]

I have read every post you have written on this forum, and I have come to the conclusion that you are either a complete idiot or someone who isn't even in the mob.

you just keep nibbling don't you?

stop winding people up with your stupid postings.

Why can't someone genuinely hold a different view. Sorry, TSM, I thought this was a Forum for discussion, not some North Korean sytle propaganda "everyone will agree with the thread-leader" nonsense!
Why can't you accept that there are some people out there that think, overall, they STILL actually enjoy being part of the Service they joined! It may have it's problems, but, hey, they don't have to moan about it in public! Ask yourselves whether you've turned into that boring old Gimmer, sitting in the Chesterfield in the Ante-Room, banging on about "How good it all was when I joined" rubbish. If so, then it's time to say, "Thanks for the memories" and shuffle away! Sorry for the democracy and daring to offer a different opinion "thread-leader".

I will say that I've received loads of PMs supporting my comments from people who don't want to break cover for fear of being called an idiot, chisler, knob etc .....

[GasFitter]

... is there still a place in today's RAF for "leaders" with views like Seldomfitforpurpose and WM who inspire ..... ?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sorry Cornish I was not referring to you, I put Gastwit on my ignore list and suddenly, for me the thread is back on track :ok:

Biggus,

Looking at the Nimrod thread I suspect never :(