No EMS Helicopters in Ireland

[funfinn2000]

Hello guys,
most of you pilots around the world have EMS in your countries, You would think that Ireland in it's current economic boom would have such a service. Well you would be wrong,Nothing!!! We do have military EMS 135's that are rarely used by Civilians (very rare). Lives that could have been saved by air end up dying in an Ambulance on a roadside enroute to trauma units each day. It's shocking.
I travel to th Uk most weeks and I notice that they have EMS in most places Metopolitan and remote, some NHS and the rest are charity operations.
I think fellas we need to drum up a charity and fund raise from these big oilers that we fly around Ireland for some cash for a Miracle Helicopter that they can claim against their taxes and make them saints in process.
I was in Wales today in Caernafon and their bo105 operated by Bond is funded by a Charity and they fundraise. They require 1.5 million a year to keep the serivice, 1.5 million is nothing compared to the lives that could be saved each day in Ireland. Insurance companies have to fork out 100's of thousands to each death that occurs so maybe they could be a sponsor and save them cash and their clients lives.
I once heard of a guy who died in wexford of an asthma attack because it took so long for Ambulance to get to him (1hr 45 mins), not the Ambulance's fault but by Air that man would still be with us and so would many others.

There should be no price on a life!!!

Well I have said my piece guys , I hope I make sense.

Fly safe,

Funfinn

[hostile]

I agree. It is old fashion to have a military or coast guard in some countries draughty HEMS operation. Your civilian operators must start a big discussion to have it away from Military. The goverment have already money for operate those nice helicopters in civilian style for the civilians.

Keep on going...:ok:

Hostile

[chcoffshore]

While we’re on the subject, are the Glasgow/Inverness Air Ambulance response/flight time' good enough to cover the east coast from Aberdeen south to the borders? Just a question not a complaint. :)

[[email protected]]

Funfinn - as I understand it, there is no requirement for your land ambulances to contain a paramedic so the chances of getting an airborne one are remote. You may have a technician or just a driver in your ambulance and this lack of legal requirement is why the coastguard don't have to provide paramedic qualified winchmen in Ireland.

[dwoodcoc]

I'm a Paddy currently flying from a heliport in Dallas and we have at least 4+ EMS operators in the area. If Dallas has 4 operators(maybe more when ye factor in Fort Worth), and each of them have more than one helicopter, why can Ireland not have at least one for each(4 of them) province?

[scruggs]

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1008/breaking55.htm

Looks like something is being planned.

S

[heliski22]

The Irish Air Corps list the provision of an Air Ambulance Service amongst the reasons they exist. No harm to the boys in blue but, as long as they are there and as long as they continue to provide this limited service, (which is the airborne equivalent of using a Land Rover as a makeshift ambulance) then governmental agencies are able to field away any requests for a proper EMS arrangement.

If there is to be any hope for such a service, then it will have to be done privately but there is no telling what the likely political implications might be. The Dept. of the Marine doing SAR with CHC might be a useful precedent.

[LHSboy]

Visited Irish Air Corp base in Dublin in February this year. As well as their 135's, they have I believe 6 139's on the way, saw 2 on the day. Why can't these aircraft (or at least one) be put to use as a dedicated EMS machine, seeing that the IAC don't have SAR contract. For the size of the country and population, it's quite incredible they don't have a dedicated HEMS. Obviously, these aircraft wouldn't be cheap to run but get a company (insurance, banking, utilities etc) behind it then the ball will start rolling. Throw a few logos on the side of the machine, crew it with qualified medical personnel and everyone will benefit. At the end of the day, how much is a life worth?

[mini]

LHSboy, can't vouch for the accuracy, but it seems the A139 is a hangar queen at the mo...

Either way, we can't expect the Aer Corp to deliver this service, it should be a civil function.

FF2, valid and long awaited point.

As I see it, its only going to happen by the much lauded "Public Private Partnership" model.

If you have any ideas PM me, I'm very interested in getting this off the ground - so to speak :ok:

[tinyjohnston]

Just the sort of thing that Sean Quinn's Grand 109 (I think) could be used for!!!! :}

Joking aside, He would be a good place to start with from a sponsor point of view as Quinn HealthCare could work on the side for him.

I do think it is something we NEED asap. Its not until someone close to one of us is affected in a situation where a EMS Heli would or could have made all the difrence that a hard push will be put on. So why not try and promote it as FunFinn2000 and Mini are sugesting & hopefully it wont be "to late" for someone close to us.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Tiny

[Bladecrack]

Funfinn,

Check out this website www.aa999.co.uk
Maybe you should talk to them?

Regards,
BC.

[Darren999]

That would be wonderful if that could be started in Ireland. In the North East US, you can throw a stone and hit an EMS chopper, seems to be one at every airport. Hope that works out over there...:ok:

[Choppersquad]

guys
you can pick the heli crew etc that is the easy part .Talk about funding this project and not just for the first year ,get that sorted then it might work.the key to this is having the wright team ie marketing,P R etc.:ugh:
cs.

[spinning]

Whos Robert Quinn ?

[Pigy]

I may be wrong, but when I was in Youghal (Co. Cork) earlier this year, I saw an S61 doing a demo for the Lifeboat ass. Looked like an EMS operation to me. Or was this the boys in blue who were refered to above

[[email protected]]

No Pigy, that was the Coastguard SAR aircraft.

[tinyjohnston]

sorry Sean Quinn....

[funfinn2000]

Well the 139's are busy in the curragh doing paradrops @10,000 ft and flying Bertie. E 271 is an EC 135 fully ems equiped and mostly used for training and Medivac for the troops during training, I often hear them on the R/t asking Bal tower if the Ambulance is standing by at the ramp, if this was a Civlian on board it would be direct to Tallaght Hospital, They have done some civilian missions and I read recently that they claim to have done 83 this year.
As I said in the beginning of this Thread, the Bo 105 at Caernafon in Wales is operated by bond and is supported by the Welsh Air Ambulance fund and they fundraise and sell merchandise in order to raise 1.5 million pounds a year to keep it in the air.
One other thing, In USA in some states the police helicopters are equiped to take stretcher so what is the point in a 4million Euro machine hovering over an accident watching people bleed when they can land and do something about it and save a life.
If anyone I care about needs emergency help I will be in nearest machine to get them, 44 or 109 whatever.

[Choppersquad]

funfinn
you are missing the point ,we all know it is needed, we all know the type of machine that would be good for the job. But tell me who is going to support 1.5 to 2 million a year running costs ,with the best will in the world rattling buckets on the street is not going to come near the the cost,some one come up with a plan that will stand up to that kind of cost ,and then look at all opp,s requirments.:ok:
cs.

[FiveSevenAlpha]

FunFinn

Thanks for the plug for the aircraft based at Caernarfon. I have an involvement with the Charitable Trust that funds a total of three HEMS Bolkow 105s in Wales - Helimed 57 in Swansea, 59 in Welshpool and 61 in Caernarfon. The actual amount we raise each year is close on £3 million and we've always been able to hit our fundraising targets, thanks to the amazing support from right across Wales. Next generation aircraft are now on the horizon, so we need to raise our game still further to fund whatever helicopters will replace the 105s.

I don't know if I'd be of any help, but drop me a line and my brains are yours for picking.....

57A

[funfinn2000]

Well I guess we will have to pick the brains of 57A

[mini]

Then we have the problem of EMT's who are trained but restricted by legislation from giving injections...:confused:

Hospitals with no landing sites...

A health service that is a complete administrative mess...

Where do you start with trying to integrate a helo casevac service?

[BASys]

Hi Folks

I'm a Paddy currently flying from a heliport in Dallas
and we have at least 4+ EMS operators in the area.
If Dallas has 4 operators(maybe more when ye factor in Fort Worth),
and each of them have more than one helicopter,
why can Ireland not have at least one for each(4 of them) province?Economics & population density ?

Dallas, metropolitan area -
- Population 6 million
- Area 385 square miles (city only)

Ireland, country -
- Population 6 million
- Area 32,591 square miles

Info source, Wikipedia.

Not disagreeing that there shouldn't be a service.

HTH
ATB
Paul

[kpd]

You may not know but even with a helicopter you cannot land at Beaumont (major hospital for all head injuries) because it doesn't have a pad!! Patients are taken to Dublin Airport then transferred by ambulance to hospital!!:confused:

[funfinn2000]

Yeah true, but Tallaght could be the better option to stabilise the patient and I don't think they have built any apartments on the heli pad they have yet although there may be planning permission for a smoking shed there.

[kpd]

I know a lot more about medicine than I do about flying and I can assure you the whole point about EMS transfer is to get the patient to the major centre as quickly as possible. No heli-pad at a major head-injury centre is not good!! Mind you ther is no pad at the Mater (major hospital for cardiac transplants and other work) because it is rather too close to a prison that some-one did a flit many years ago!!!

[Helipolarbear]

:)A HEMS feasability study was conducted by Booz, Allan and Hamilton-Dublin on behalf of the Irish Gov and the then N Ireland Gov about 5 years ago.
I got myself a copy which I have farmed out to a number of people. Reading it is very tough as it was a badly produced study which cost €140K to the taxpayer both North and South. There was hardly any consultation with the IAA ( who would be the approving authority of any HEMS - JAR OPS-3 in the south). The initial investment for one heli covering Ireland and access to all secondary medicine care with proper helipads etc was suggested as €11 MILLION!!!!!! They also looked at how HEMS is operated in England and Wales. Scotland didn't get a mention!! The suggestion that the HEMS should operate on charity is ludicrous. If some UK operations are conducted on charitable basis, then thats their choice. In Ireland we need an operation thats there on a permanent basis. It must not be dependent on charitable contributions over uncertain time periods to function.
In a previous message a comparison was made regarding various Air Ambulance ops in Dallas, Texas and lack of in Ireland. Population, area coverage etc were markers for the comparison. If thats the case, how come Luxemberg has a number of HEMS?
Also, keep in mind that under JAR OPS-3 ther is a distinct difference between HEMS and Air Ambulance, the latter may be operated under a normal AOC at the discretion of the member state authority.
I believe it is possible to run at least 3 heli's initially as an Air Ambulance Unit in Ireland AND make a profit for the long term, but it's not England or Wales we should be looking at!:ok:

[OEI and Still Flying]

My God Lou !
Not a post since last June and now 2 posts in one day.
Where have you been?

[Helipolarbear]

For your observation ability.......You get a Banana!:p

[OEI and Still Flying]

Here I am proclaiming to the world the virtues of your return and you only give me a banana
Great !
When do I get it ?:

[funfinn2000]

Hey could ya imagine one of our corporations logo'son the side of a nice equiped Heli??

I came across an operation in USA that offered an EMS service in remote areas in USA which worked on a membership basis and they are very successful. They are like the AA but for people when they need assistance, members are allowed I think one or two uses a year. The more members they have the better the service and the more machines they provide in rural areas.

Here is tha link,

http://www.lifeteam.net

[eurocopter beans]

Do you hope to offer 24 hour roadside assistance? I have heard that hems pilots must have a minimum of 2,000 hours PIC. How many pilots would be required to run this proposed service? It will be pricey, very worthy cause but very expensive.

[mickjoebill]

What about a proposal for a trial period for the East coast over the summer?
Who much would that cost?
Im not suggesting new helipads or infrastructure other than a portacabin, helicopter and crew:)

I can organise a TV doc series of the trial that would communicate the effectiveness of a service.



Mickjoebill

[Heliseka]

Why doesn't a bank like AIB step in and do something like the Wespac trust helicopters in Australia and New Zealand,Aren't they supposed to be one of the most profitable banks in Europe.Sure they charge you for about everything,About time one of the big companies put there hands in the old pocket...Not a bad why to advertise the bank if you ask me..Just my two cence:rolleyes:

[kpd]

As already posted the major problem for any EMS scheme is the fact that you cannot land at the major Dublin Hospitals!! Perhaps you need a TV programme on that?? Does seem that such a basic fact is missed in most discussions on this point!!!

[funfinn2000]

Tv spot is needed , Maybe a few phone calls are needed, all these people that die on our roads possibly Die before help comes and they could be saved by air

[HillerBee]

We are working on a trial here in the West. First response. We'll supply the aircraft, base and pilots.

[funfinn2000]

when do you think you will be starting??

[HillerBee]

First Q 2008. First response DAY VFR only.

[funfinn2000]

well the very best of luck with it, Day VFR is fine as it's a trail and when successful night VFR/IFR can follow suit.

We'll get this country out of the dark ages one of these days.

FF

[Choppersquad]

hillerbee
who is paying for the trial run

cs.

ps, best of luck.:D

[mickjoebill]

Hiller Bee,

AS355 NG as can't get cameraman in the back for the return journey...:}


Mickjoebill

[lipgo]

Don t think its a AS355N - its a Bell 222

[5415N]

try this
http://www.mygroupni.com/alpha5/?tabindex=1&tabid=1982

[Rotor Reg]

Sorry Guys, no such thing exists within the state. Suggest you read SI 61 of 2006 and SI 72 of 2004.

Regards,

RR:=

[HillerBee]

First response missions at night are out of the question, same as in the UK.
The operation is privately funded.

[funfinn2000]

We know about the night rules but rules change. Any idea of area of Operation? will you limit it to the Galway area? I would hate to need a rotors running fueling in these parts especially with part-time airports.

In the Dark ages we are.!!

[HillerBee]

Radius 40nm, we want to be on site within 20 min. We won't be at Galway Airport.

[PANews]

This mention of a Bell 222 probably comes from a recent story in the Mayo Advertiser. That story mentioned an operator called HeliMed setting up ops from 'March 2008' using Executive Helicopters and Blackrock Ambulance Service. The story specifically mentioned a Galway based Bell 222.

This is not a charity funded service - there were quotes of a cost of approximately €4,000 from Galway to Dublin and €5,000 from Castlebar to Dublin.

From March there is supposed to be a 24-hour seven days a week emergency call-out through the Blackrock Ambulance control.

On the basis of the words used the IFR 222 does not need to be in country yet.

[eurocopter beans]

Hillerbee,

Congratulations on the forthcoming trial, sounds interesting. Who is paying for the service? What type of crew composition are you talking about? Have you had any snags from the IAA at all? A bell 222 seems like a nice machine to use. What are your predicted call to lift times? Best of luck, its about time this service was set up even if it is profit oriented.

[hpilot]

HillerBee,

I just stumbled on this thread today. Good luck with the trial.

Last time I tried to figure it out we have (very approx) 2 EMS helicopters for every 1 million people here in the US. I have always wondered why we don't have any Helicopter EMS in Ireland.
Do you have any idea what the flight crew qualifications/ requirments will be? Also; will pilot positions will be advertised if the trial is successful?

Thanks for the informative posts.

[meat bomb]

Ive heard that the 222 will be doing patient transfers, air ambulance as oppposed to HEMs. As the Air Corps already do this for no extra charge, why would the HSE cough up the money for another operator? That said a national HEMs service could save a lot of lifes in terms of a quick response, especially in some remote parts of the west.

[Helinut]

Nov 07 PAN has a short piece on this:

http://www.policeaviationnews.com/Acrobat/PANewsNovember07.pdf

At Page 13

[eurocopter beans]

The IAC AW139 is due to take over the Air Ambulance roster from the smaller 135 soon , and it will provide a 24hr service and it will cost the patient nothing! Seems like developing civilian operations (i have heard rumours that an air ambulance will be operating soon in nearly every corner of our small country... Waterford, Kerry, Galway, Belfast, Enniskillen, Cork etc..) could be very expensive for little gain in comparison to developing military air ambulance. Regardless of whether the expense is carried by an already stretched Health Service or by generous contributors in shopping centres the expense is still huge. The population does deserve proper air ambulance coverage, it also deserves proper cancer prevention clinics, proper radiotherapy centres and hundreds of other health-related drains on valuable health resources. The question is how do we expend our health budget/goodwill budget without wasting it or financing someones helicopter business... my two cents.

[bolkow]

Is there any truth in the rumour that a bo105 now operates an air ambulance service for the Cork area including the offshore islands?

[PANews]

I am fairly sure that the answer is no at this moment in time... ask in a few weeks ... maybe as late as July the answer may be yes if the money arrives in the coffers by that time.

There is a Bond 105 at Cork but it has other duties. There has been an EC135T2i on oil industry support since January 1 but I guess there will be a need for the 105 in a maintance support role.

[bolkow]

what other dutues does the bond bo105 at Cork do then? I was totally unaware of one being there. Thanks for the info/reply.

[PANews]

I know of no specifics other than that Bond at Cork is new and primarily supporting the new EC135T2i oil contract.

As stated above I guessed that the 105 might currently be there in a maintenance support role for the 135, other options always likely.