Fat loadies!

[guidedweapons]

A few days ago I had the pleasure of visiting RAF Shawbury, it's always a pleasure to use the feeder, great food and a welcoming smile. I was dismayed to see so many overweight rear crew! Have they changed the medical criteria and increased the BMI for existing aircrew? Shawbury I assume is the first place the students get to see their future Peers, what sort of example is it setting to see clinically obese bosses?

[Al R]

Perhaps the fitness test needs to be done, say.. oh, twice a year?

[charliegolf]

Fat WSOps to you, you cheeky sod!:ok:

CG

[Door Slider]

Most of them are civvies, well the fat ones anyway :}

[Stitchbitch]

Well they're not loady'ing (sorry, WSOP'ing) in a microlight are they? I heard they take the loadies weight into account for the max all up weight on the Merlin..:} If you left one of the two behind you can carry an extra oil drum or six and a aircon pack.:E

[Runaway Gun]

A cheeky geezer indeed. You were the fat arsed front crewer that was seen scoffing our chocolate cakes? :E

[guidedweapons]

The ones I saw weren't civvies and bursting out of there flying suits!

[Airborne Aircrew]

bursting out of there flying suits

Obvious really... Defense cuts... They're making the flying suits an inch smaller to save money. :suspect:

[guidedweapons]

The question or observation has still not been addressed, can anybody enlighten me to the possible reasons why clinically obese aircrew are still allowed to fly? It may just be that they are sent to outstations away from the frontline to graze, or are they grounded but just wearing flying suits! Top tip, under no circumstances allow them to be the ration key custodian.

[anotherthing]

No doubt they were educated, and knew the differance between 'their' and 'there'. Or perhaps you were struggling to wibble

Stones/glass houses springs to mind :ok:

[Bitberg7]

It also really messes up the trim when they walk across the cabin, but it would be a brave man that told them ....

[Runaway Gun]

It sounds like Guidedweapons is trying to earn a promotion by advocating a Thrice-yearly Annual Fitness Test....

When do we get issued our tapeworms?

[Middle Mate]

Agree with Bitberg7, plenty here walking about that look like they are trying to keep hold of their flying suits that they were issued back in the day.

Time to move up a size guys.

[Brain Potter]

can anybody enlighten me to the possible reasons why clinically obese aircrew

Twice now you've given us that diagnosis. I didn't realise that service medical care had been reduced because medical diagnoses could be obtained from some bloke in an aircrew feeder. Clinician are you? How about you leave it to Doctors to decide who is "clinically" anything?

The service can ill-afford to lose any experience these days. Squadrons of complex aircraft wholly manned by inexperienced people will become a far bigger safety threat to everyone when the guidance and wisdom of a few older but less 'gym-fit' hands is removed by the health and fitness Hitler Youth. This applies equally to air and ground crew. I predict that in future the RAF will have younger, fitter and more Army-like force that cannot achieve as much from it's older ac - because much of the experience has left amid the ever increasing BS driven by policies that are red herrings.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

In some circumstances fat crewmen and crewgirls are what we have, we cant afford to lose them and their experience granted; that said, they are an eyesore and a blight on the service in the joint arena. It isnt just Shawbury though, there are even more of them at Lyneham and Brize - even 99 has its fair share at senior level and what about the fatigators that are abundant on the truckie fleets?:eek:

To their credit, they have the the experience and they have the enthusiasm to do the jobs in austere circumstances on the front line; there is just more of them to love. Students going through Shawbury know the difference between the civvy instructors and the mil ones - after all they arent supid - they are educated beings. Its just a shame they have let them selves go to such an extent, especially when they have a good gym at Shawbs and some fantastic running routes.

[D-IFF_ident]

Got to agree with Brain Potter here. Perhaps a study of levels of fitness of various Air Forces versus human factor induced aviation incidents would be appropriate? Or a paper on the evolution of fitness testing as could be correlated against retention of experienced and talented aviators? It might be interesting simply to research the levels of, say, NAT structure violations by the apparently uber-fit, young and less experienced crews of the USAF AMC fleet compared to the knackered old pie-eaters of the RAF AT fleet, perhaps.

Misguided weapon - I see you are new.... Take some time to read a few posts. Although this is a rumour network, many of us like to back-up our rumours, thoughts and theories with facts, or at least accessible evidence. A sweeping generalization (yes, I did use a Z; I pronounced it 'Zee' too, in case you were wondering) suggesting Loadies are fat without giving at the very least the ratio of fatties to skinnies in the feeder, at the gym or in the pool, does not give the full picture. It is also unfair to Navigators.

Aye

Edited for spolling

[guidedweapons]

Yes, perhaps you're right and there's nothing at all wrong with Lardys wondering around our RAF bases. Bums on seats are clearly the way ahead we will just have to make the seats bigger.........Much bigger! I do feel for the troops on the ground when being picked up and witnessing a sweating, huffing, puffing heafer who is unable to help with kit incase they suffer a cardiac arrest....................Experience is all!!

[trap one]

Miss-guided
You aparently seem to equate slim with brains and fat with incompedence. Would you like your bleeding injured grunt picked up in marginal conditions by a bloke/blokess who is straining their suit or would you like to leave them waiting for the good looking, slim, in-experienced young crews to pick them up in better conditions.
You also seem to be a clinician of great years so I was wondering what a medical officer was doing in the feeder. Did you conduct a medical exam in situ or did you ask if any of them had any medical conditions? Are you also able to see that all the people you have labeled are un fit or did you have them all off down the gym and conduct a fitness test?

You seem to be a very opinionated person with nothing but you opinions to back up your post. If your reason for posting was to get responses then you have succeded.

As for fitness V BMI I suggest that you take a bl00dy good look at the England front row. By the way one of the most fitest blokes I knew weighed 18 stone played for the RAF Vets at 40 had NO fat on his body and still strained his size 12 suit. Till he dropped dead a year later from a heart attack.

So as far as I'm concerned you are talking out of your rear end.
Read all the other posts about fitness and you'll find that a lot of people have opinions about fitness levels but experience will tell.

[Maple 01]

GW they won't give a toss about Aircrew wastelines as long as the kite turns up - trust me

[higthepig]

It is not their fault, it's the girls in the Aircrew Feeder fattening them up for Christmas in a new money generating scheme. The expanding waistlines at Shawbury are not confined to Loadies, the 2-wing demi-gods are also getting a bit portly, widen your scan and you'll see what I mean. You were worried about the Christmas turkey lasting for ages, these will see you through till well past the daffodils!

[Yozzer]

A few days ago I had the pleasure of visiting RAF Shawbury
I would not rush back for a second visit if I were you, for I dare say your manners leave a bad taste not unlike many cookhouses around the bazaars. Was it the quality of life, or the heavy wallets that really upset you? Perhaps it was the esteem to which the WSOps are held compared to ones own little privates.

Another Pongo v Crab* thread :ugh: Still light hearted humour that is easy on the palette I suppose. *A resonable assumption as Shawbury is similar to each and every SH Sqn in appearance. The SAR boys eat even more pies!

[guidedweapons]

Trap one: "You aparently seem to equate slim with brains and fat with incompedence"

I am guessing by that liitle rant that you fall in the 'competent' side. I agree with most of the replies placed on this subject and I am by no means saying that all front seat crews are racing snakes, but surely we need to draw the line on such a highly visible trade. After all, they are Aircrew at the end of the day and if memory serves me correctly the medicals on entry where quite stringent so at what point do we allow people to literally let it go!
Fat does not equall experience. it equals eating too much and not excercising!

[Maple 01]

Conversely thin does not automatically mean competent

[South Bound]

Oh crikey, let us not head down the whole fitness rabbit hole again. Don't judge too quickly by appearance, fit to do the job (ie passes all tests, meets all requirements) is enough, if they appear a bit lardy that is a lifestyle issue and I don't remember BMI being on any stat to assess one's ability to do one's job.

[Horror box]

I feel this thread has lost its way slightly. I think it is a fair point raised by GW, perhaps not phrased in the best way though. I would also wholeheartedly agree that thin does not necessarily equal competent, and fat equal incompetent. The real argument as I see it is one of self discipline. There is a reason for required fitness levels across the military, and this includes obesity. I am afraid you do not need to be a trained clinician to spot obesity, and yes I will agree there are some very large people, who remain very fit. This however is more of an exception than the rule, and very few fall into this category. I am afraid to say that in general - if they look obese, they probably are, and I can say this as it is a field in which I am trained.
Good physical fitness is directly related to overall good health, physical and just as importantly - mental. Operational environments create a huge amount of stress on the body, due to a number of factors. Long working hours, night flying and irregular sleep patterns, as well as environmental conditions, all add put a great strain on the mind and body, affecting many systems, including the immune sysytem, nervous system, and digestive systems. The evidence is overwhelming and indisputible that good physical fitness is the best way to cope with this. This does not mean being a marathon runner, but simple, regular exercise, weight under control and a healthy diet - no excuses.
I will agree that experience is very important, and these experienced individuals will understand the need to be best prepared for the job in all ways - mentally as well as physically. Being overweight means you are far more prone to illness, stress related issues, injury and feeling the need to defend your size! Anyone can train and get fit. If they cant, then they should be downgraded and removed placed in rehab, as they present a liability and burden to their crew and operation.
I dont intend to preach and appreciate the experience argument, as well as the fact that this may be sometimes unachievable, but their must be targets and every attempt made to reach them.

[jollygreenfunmachine]

Guided weapons. What is your issue. Can they pass a fitness test? Yes. Are they fit to do the job? Yes. Are the 2/3 guys you refer to pulling their weight (no pun intended)? Yes.

If you want to open a real can of worms then look around and see how many people in the whole of the RAF are overweight and well past their sell by date. Visit an Army barracks and you wont see the same. That is because they realise they are a fighting force and are fit for purpose. Sadly an unhealthy minority(?) of the RAF percieve their job to be Admin or Supply or whatever. With the pace and demands of current ops if your not fit to fight then you really are no use to the service. Too many times i have seen people deploy at short notice to replace some waster who has gone sick due to poor maintanence of his body!

To go back to my first line, the 2/3 guys to whom you refer have probably been on more op dets than they would care to remember. So don't judge books by covers ok?

Rant over. P.S Ant spelling mistakes are anger induced.

[harrogate]

Ugly people are the only people who get wound up by fat folks. Truefact.

Thus GuidedbyWeapons has no doubt got a face like a bag of smashed crabs.

[RICKIT]

Wander round RAF Norfolk and there are plenty of Wedgewood Blue shirts at max tension and a WSO nicknamed after Japanese wrestling...top bloke though.:ok:

[Role1a]

Being overweight means you are far more prone to illness, stress related issues, injury
That maybe true but conversely how many extra shifts have Overweights picked up because of sports injuries and sports detachments.

[wg13_dummy]

Yet another 'Campaign Against Fitness' from the Royal Air Force........


:rolleyes:

[Horror box]

That maybe true but conversely how many extra shifts have Overweights picked up because of sports injuries and sports detachments.
I think you will find my reference was simply to regular exercise and a healthy diet, not specifically to playing sport. In fact I have advised people to avoid certain sports if they are in operationally critical roles, and are to be deployed in the near future. However if they are playing sports, at least they are more likley to have their injury prior to deployment as opposed to during a deployment. Again I have seen this first hand several times, where unfit individuals have been a burden to their detachment due to injury on ops as a direct result of their lack of physical condition. I have also seen more often than not, those who get sick, and more importantly stay sick for a longer period of time, are more often found to be overweight and in poor physical condition.

[VinRouge]

And how many fitness spods have dropped down dead for maintaining their "Phiz" routine whilst deployed in theatre.

2 whilst I have been in theatre. Oh, and I have had to cover at least 3 dets for fitties who have knackered themselves doing things as begnign as sit-ups.

Oh, and I have failed a fitness test before. So what. I provide the goods in theatre whilst those who break themselves just to look good in the mirror are sat at home in physio. :hmm:

[ACW599]

Slightly OT but having enjoyed a splendid Landowners' Day at EGOS today, I didn't think anyone I saw was especially large. And Mr Alpha 55 is a top bloke . . .

[wg13_dummy]

VinRouge, typical salad dodger comment.

I dont think anyone is advocating that all should be gym queens or Daly Thompson phizz gods.

Just seems odd that you are defending being the Pilsbury Dough Boy or at best, a fat knacker.


And I think you're getting away from the origins of the topic;

Shawbury I assume is the first place the students get to see their future Peers, what sort of example is it setting to see clinically obese bosses?

Setting an example has nothing to do with spending 12 hours a day in the gym. It's a military thing but I don't suppose you'd understand that.

[PingDit]

Let's just sort a couple of things out here.....
The only really fat aircrew are loadies OK?
Anyway, the army blokes are only 'slim' 'cos they're made to walk everywhere! The rest of us have real aircraft.

:oh: Attempts to outrun the incoming......

[trap one]

Mis-guided.
No to your quoting of my post, I don't. You apparently seem to assume a lot by looking, be it at people or posts. That was why I made that post.
I again ask you to respond to the allegation that you are a Medical officer and PTI, all rolled into 1.
If you read the rest of my post you will see that I gave you an example of a very good friend who stretched his size 12 (the biggest) flying suit and yet had an extremely low BMI. The same for the England Rugby team front row.
Whilst you seem to just jump in certain directions and assume that these people are "clinically obese" (your words) you fail to check that that is the case.
People are not perfect, someone who is fat could certainly be "fit". I could pass the Bleep test but not the cycle test as I had high blood pressure. My late friend also passed the bleep test, but died from a heart attack.
The fitness fatness argument has been exhausted on other threads, and it wont go away. My problem with your post and you is your apparent ability to decide instantly who is what, is that you fall into a very dangerous category.
In a war zone. Do you look at a clear sky and think lovely or do you check for clear air turbulence. Do you maintain lookout for SAM's/AAA, or because you see nothing do you fly normally? Do you look at a field and think lovely field of flowers or do you check for mines and trip wires. Do you set up a tent in the middle of an airfield and fail to dig a slit trench, because you assume nothing can reach you in the middle of the airfield.
If you do not ask/check and you are on your own then you are the only one killed if you get it wrong. If you have troops under your command, or rear crew down the back, they will get killed with you.
You I would refuse to fly with!!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Wg,

As you are in the Army you will not understand the light blue way of life in the same way we are often bemused by the antics you mad pongo's get up to.

The fat knackers you and your colleagues so gleefully disparage will, almost certainly have passed their one and now two annual fitness tests so therefore they are "technically", fit despite not being pleasing on your rather critical eye.

The system sets a level of fitness we need to achieve which pretty much all of us attain with great ease and if some choose to see that as sufficient AND are still capable of carrying out their primary role then what is the problem :ok:

[wg13_dummy]

I'm guessing some of them must have defied the laws of physics if they truly have passed a fitness test. I'm sure that, like us you have the types who seem to 'go sick' just before a test and find ways out of actually doing it. Either that or they are paying the PTIs a few quid. :ok:

Its not my eyes that find them displeasing but as the opening poster suggests, it doesn't give the correct military impression to the young students.

Would you want an instructor looking like a total bag of ****e? Long hair, dirty flying suit, dirty boots?

And before some of you say 'if he can do his job, who cares' I think you may have missed the lesson whilst at Grantham Poly that advised 'lead by example'.

[Yozzer]

I only wish I had some stats regarding the Rotary WSOps that are broken, requiring a Fixed Wing crossover or Medical Discharge. For I know that there are, or at least have been, many, and those that I know about have been relatively young, active and fit individuals. One Martial Arts maestro is now sadly disabled for life and no longer in the RAF.

The point to which I am getting, is that most instructors are not the youth of today, but have survived physical aspects of the job for, in some cases, decades. Reoccuring injuries (particulary back) are commonplace, yet they get on with it without bitching. The Physio staff at Shawbury are never short of Aircrew customers, most of whome are youngsters.

To subscribe to Pprune just to start a thread such as this says a lot about the mindset and therefore mental state of the originator. In short he/she is a Troll and should be treated with the contempt that this deserves. No doubt he/she has also logged on with a secondary 'handle', especially for the purpose of this thread, and has probably contributed to his own thread under his original 'name'. A timely reminder perhaps that names are taken at meetings for the purpose of Minutes:

All this at a time when mutual respect across the wider SH / AH Fleet was at its highest ever.............. It is pathetic

[[email protected]]

I'm afraid the WG13 has this right - having been in for 25 plus years and kept myself the right side (just) of the fat boy bracket by doing Phys - some of the sights you see in a flying suits are frankly a disgrace. We are supposed to be a fighting force and expect the respect from others for that but it is a difficult claim to substantiate when guys turn up to work in spray-on flying kit.

Sadly our system allows guys to keep flying with 'fablon biff-chits' - fit to fly but unable to complete a fitness test for medical reasons.

It is worse at Shawbury because in a loadies operational job, there is a lot of humping and dumping that keeps them fitter (certainly fit for their job) but in LFA 9 they probably see 1 bergen a year.

I take GW's point that they set a poor example to new boys and girls as role models - unfortunately that poor example was being set back in the 80s and probably beyond.

As for the criticsm of GW's ability to assess obesity - you don't have to be a doctor to spot a fat b*st*rd:)

[Maple 01]

Sadly our system allows guys to keep flying with 'fablon biff-chits' -fit to fly but unable to complete a fitness test for medical reasons.


How difficult is it to grasp? The purpose of the RAF IS to fly, anything else is an side issue, nothing sad about it - are you seriously suggesting grounding anyone who can't pass the RAFFT? Would you rather have good aircrew with years of experience or sprogs that look good on the cover of the Gay Times for that difficult and dangerous job? Then you'll have to accept they aint going to be racing snakes - middle age spread

[PICKS135]

I thought the reason for fat rearcrew was in case of dropping the aircraft in the Andes. Ready made food supply for the drivers:E:E:E

[The Swinging Monkey]

Guided Weapons,

So am I correct in thinking that in your opinion the appearance of a person is an important factor in promoting our armed forces? Should they be ggod looking also? What about if they have spots and are ugly??

When I left the mob a few ago now, I was one of your 'heavies' In fact, I would go so far as to say that I was considerably over-weight, however, I was damned good looking as well!!

Oh, and more importantly, I could still do the job (ex RAF SAR)

Now, there will always be those idiots (like you) who believe that we should all look like racing snakes, and be able to run for ever blah. (don't worry if you are up to the job - just make sure you look good!)

The facts however, are that as we get older, we tend to 'expand' a little, and in my case, and others, quite a lot. But it doesn't stop us from doing our job, and doing it well. (a few extra pounds, on a freezing cold night, dangling on the end of 100' of wire comes in handy I can tell you)

Anyway, since leaving the RAF, I'm looking at things slightly differently now, and have worked out that for my weight, I should be 18 feet tall!! So maybe I'm now just a little short-arse eh ??!!

TSM

[BEagle]

"So am I correct in thinking that in your opinion the appearance of a person is an important factor in promoting our armed forces? Should they be ggod looking also? What about if they have spots and are ugly??"

Believe it or not, a chap who went through RAFC with me was once told by his utter wanqueurre of a Flt Cdr that he had 'unofficer-like bone structure'.........

Incidentally, throughout the '70s, '80s and '90s, no-one was forced to prance around the gym (whatever one of those is), but I don't recall any aircrew having any weight-related medical problems. The just did their jobs.

The only injuries were amongst those who committed jockstrappery.....:hmm:

[airborne_artist]

The fittest guy on my RN aircrew survival course was a wiry, cross-country running, rock-climbing enthusiast. The least fit was at least one stone overweight, probably two.

Imagine a cold, snowy February, OK, only the New Forest, not the Cairngorms, but still brassy. And who got mild hypothermia and had to be "nursed" through the next couple of days until the weather warmed up?

That's right, the fitness freak. The lardy one just lost a stone, and continued chortling.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I think AA's tale should put this sad sorry thread to bed quite nicely :D

[guidedweapons]

Let me put a few things straight, my uniform is light blue, I am not a racing snake, but I am not chunky either.
I am not a doctor or dietician but my eyesight is fine and I can tell the difference from a fat F**ker and a healthy big fella. What right does being aircrew give you to be a lardy wheezy bag of ****e. Face facts this is the military, and you are expected to maintain a basic level of fitness, my mum could get the job done! Unfortunatly some of you believe the RAF is exempt from having weight disipline. If you are fat - do one, and spin war stories or (SAR) stories to passing folk while sat in your mobility scooter blocking the pavement!

[wg13_dummy]

How difficult is it to grasp? The purpose of the RAF IS to fly, anything else is an side issue, nothing sad about it -

You may as well f*** off to EasyJet with an attitude like that. After all, thats all the airlines do isn't it?

Yet again, some of you appear to be breaking into a sweat just thinking about this subject. Its not about being like skinny marathon runners or gym queens. Its just about setting an example by being healthy.

[Maple 01]

he primary purpose of the RAF IS to fly, if you can't understand and accept that then you should stick to ARRSE when you can talk about the joys of Breacon and how you stood next to Fiji Bob on the balcony......

[guidedweapons]

Maple,

After reading your post I have come up with an excelent recruitment solution. We fit a Stana stair lift to the our transport aircraft, modify the Chinooks ramp to allow wheelchair access, fit a few pulleys and levers inside and give the likes of Steven Hawkins a bell and invite him to cranwell for some aptitude tests, Thinking about it I reckon Rik Waller could push and pull a few knobs as well.

[An Teallach]

Such a pity I'd missed this thread. There would seem to be enough 'prospects' posting in here to keep an old queen happy for months!

Sigh! ;)

[Brain Potter]

It's a real shame that these fat useless biffs cannot be simply thrown out of the service on the say-so of a gym-poser who has cast his well-trained eye over them in his lunch break and decided that they cannot do a job that is so physically undemanding it could be done by his mum.

They are clearly setting a terrible example by whiling away the years in the easy-life world of an SH crewman. If life still isn't easy enough they could then get one of the dodgy sick chits that are regularly issued to 40+ yr old crewmen - allowing the feigning of a crocked back, neck or knees; injuries that must be consistently faked as they would never occur to any gym-poser in the same undemanding job. The final tactic to crown their career of nest-feathering is to obtain one of those Christmas-cracker CFS(H) qualifications, allowing them to pass on years of experience in malingering to the next generation trainee slackers. Ideally they would set such a bad example that any BBC documentary featuring their former students engaged in operational flying would reveal the lazy ethos that they have passed on and result in a badly-received expose of poor practices in the SH world.

We are all aware of the health issues of being over-weight and the service is quite right to promote a healthy lifestyle. I have no objection to those that enjoy "phys" encouraging those that don't to be a little more active - perhaps by setting their own good example. However, in our business of delivering airpower I have seen plenty of "tubbys" be far more effective at flying or servicing aircraft than their gym-loving colleagues. I am not saying that fat = competent, but I have enough experience to disbelieve any claim that fat = less effective than thin.

GW - Your attitude is holier-than-thou and you are making a snap judgement on people who have probably seen and done more than you. In passing on their skills and experience they are invaluable and they are having a direct effect on frontline ops in Telic and Herrick. You should try showing a little respect instead of scorn.

The "warfighter first, specialist second" policy is wrong. We are specialists - that's why the independant air force was created. A Harrier Chief Tech delivers airpower by ensuring that the ac are serviceable to fight the war. A Chinook crewman delivers airpower by supervising the ac load, monitoring the flightpath, operating the weapons etc. Yes - there are some basic military skills that we all need and these become more important in jobs that work in harness with the Army, but the cart is starting to come before the horse. Do we think that 617 Sqn in 1943 tried to be as fit as the Ox and Bucks Lt Inf - or did they simply drink beer, smoke tabs and kill Germans?

[charliegolf]

BP

Fat blokes die as honourably as racing snakes too, I'll wager. Good post.

CG

[guidedweapons]

Bugger.... the yanks got to him first!

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070426/070426_StevenHawkinsZeroG_hmed_6p.h2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://backoffgov.*************/2007/04/for-everyone-of-you-that-says-you-cant.html&start=1&h=275&w=413&sz=17&tbnid=PWHcCnqtoZk5XM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=125&hl=en&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsteven%2Bhawkins%26gbv%3D1%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3D en%26sa%3DG

[PICKS135]

Seem to remember the fit as **** blokes were never available for any detachments / war zones. Due to the fact they were always representing station / RAF in sports competitions, or too busy training for aforementioned competitions.

Hmm decisions do we send SGT 'A' to a sandy place for 6 months or do we keep him in the UK so he can play for Scotland in the 6 Nations.

Forget it send the fat ****

[guidedweapons]

Here is a quote from the RAF website,

"‘In our particular trade you need to be really fit, because there’s so much “humping and dumping”. But, in any trade, it’s a good idea to be fit: RAF operations are often carried out in the field, and living in tents can take it out of you physically."

Its not about being super fit, its about looking reasonably armed forces like. I realise some of you may come back with the Fat does not equall unfit. Call me an old tradionalist but when you look like Jabba the Hut in a flying suit, you aint about to out run the Taliban accross Helmand. Therefore you become a liability to the rest of the crew.


http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/lifeintheraf/trainingandfitness.cfm

[Airborne Aircrew]

GW:

This isn't an argument about fit or fat any more... It's all about self respect and self discipline... and those that lack either or both are immediately apparent.

You should just drop it... There are many here that will go to extraordinary lengths to justify said shortfalls...

[wg13_dummy]

So very true AA. Some are trying very hard to twist the original post by yet again turning it into a 'we are not SAS, we are Airpower providers nothing more' angle.

Pathetic that people who as supposedly military are trying to justify why they should be fat bloaters. Again, no one is suggesting you should all be Olympic athletes, just resemble something vaguely military.

[PTT]

Its not about being super fit, its about looking reasonably armed forces like.
Wrong. It's about being able to do your job, and ideally do it well. Anything else is just Bullsh!t (of the brain-baffling variety).

I'd rather have an overweight lump with a brain and the sense to use it than a muscled moron in the back of my aircraft.

[wg13_dummy]

Wrong. It's about being able to do your job, and ideally do it well. Anything else is just Bullsh!t (of the brain-baffling variety).

I'd rather have an overweight lump with a brain and the sense to use it than a muscled moron in the back of my aircraft.



Obviously to make up for the lack brain you have.


If all you are after is 'just being able to do your job', poke off to SleazyJet.


Yet again, its not about being a bronzed, muscle bound adonis, its about setting a vaguely military like standard that the young chaps can look up to. Being a fat wheezy knacker with a sick note from matron doesn't exactly set you up to be classed as a cut above the rest, does it?


I'd rather have a capable bloke with a brain who wouldn't become a liability if I had to start doing a Billy Whizz away from the teletubbies somewhere sharp.

As has been said already, someone who doesnt have at least the basic personal discipline to stop being a fat bloke is probably lazy in the brain too.

[[email protected]]

PTT - until you end up on the deck in hostile territory and the fat tw8t can't run, slows you down and then gets you all captured (or shot) - very efficient!

Sounds like the overweight lump with a brain is in the front of your aircraft:)

How many posters have you seen telling you to dress for the outside environment not the crewroom or the cockpit - for dress read prepare mentally and physically and you have the answer to your poor arguments.

Not super fit just not superfat:)

[wg13_dummy]

Crab, you are slim compared to some of the bloaters knocking around the bazaars. :ok:


Maybe some of your bretheren here will listen to you as opposed to a pongo? They seem to think we are all fitness freaks too. We are not but at least most of us dont break into a sweat climbing into the cab.

[samuraimatt]

Blimey, dummy person you do drone on, your posts are like reading last weeks papers, pointless. I bet you can't wait for a thread like this to come along so you can pretend to be oh so superior. Instead of having ago at the Armed Forces why not try and be more supportive. No wonder the public don't give a damn with people like you about.GAL!!!.:rolleyes:

[South Bound]

lol, sorry I am with wg and crab on this one. Bored of the 'it is ok to be fat as long as I can do my job' excuses for not being able to achieve mandated fitness standards. Of course, if our larger colleagues can do everything that is required of them professionally, achieve the fitness standards without whinging and not be at serious risk of loss of health, good luck to them, but we should remember the example that SNCOs and Officers are required to present. It is no wonder that the country's children struggle with weight and fitness when face with such role models.

[wg13_dummy]

Well said, South Bound.


Blimey, dummy person you do drone on, your posts are like reading last weeks papers, pointless. I bet you can't wait for a thread like this to come along so you can pretend to be oh so superior. Instead of having ago at the Armed Forces why not try and be more supportive. No wonder the public don't give a damn with people like you about.GAL!!!.

Pointless? Yeah, whatever tubby.


More supportive? I dont think I could be more supportive doing the job Im currently doing.

The public might give a bit more of a damn if they saw people who are supposed to be military looking, not some loady who looks like a walting re-enactor at a weekend military fair.

[samuraimatt]

Pointless? Yeah, whatever tubby.

I rest my case. Pointless, insignificant and pompous. I bet you just sit in an office all day thinking of ideas to slag off the RAF. I bet the guys in the recent Chinook programme would be happy to see what you think of them. Then again they are doing a real job for the front line troops so probably couldn't give a stuff of what you might think of them.

[wg13_dummy]

I rest my case. Pointless, insignificant and pompous. I bet you just sit in an office all day thinking of ideas to slag off the RAF. I bet the guys in the recent Chinook programme would be happy to see what you think of them. Then again they are doing a real job for the front line troops so probably couldn't give a stuff of what you might think of them.


I'll ask them next time I'm over that way.

I thought the argument was about fatties in instructional positions setting an example?

Are you one of those fatties?

[South Bound]

This really is brightening up a rather dreary afternoon, keep going fellas!

[wg13_dummy]

It is SB.

How long do you think it will be before some salad dodging loadie whines to Admin to get the thread removed?

Its military, its banter and its about aircrew (well, rearcrew any way). :ok:

[South Bound]

Most of the ones I meet can take a bit of banter, I just think that many people on here take their work/lives/right to eat cakes just a bit seriously. Hey if we can't laugh at ourselves, what right do we have to laugh at other people?

[samuraimatt]

I'll ask them next time I'm over that way.


Dummy on Herrick? Not two words you will see very often. I bet the furthest you have been recently is to the main gate at wallop.:ouch: Perhaps if you did ever end up there (doubtful), on the way out you could shout from your Tristar seat "hey fatty where's my food" and see the response you get.

[wg13_dummy]

Dummy on Herrick? Not two words you will see very often. I bet the furthest you have been recently is to the main gate at wallop. Perhaps if you did ever end up there (doubtful), on the way out you could shout from your Tristar seat "hey fatty where's my food" and see the response you get.


Fortunately, you'll never know.

Nice to see you are also entering into the spirit of the thread.

Shame your banter is 'RAF Police' standard though.

You an ex copper, now salad dodging rearcrewman?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Not one to agree with SAM but he does have a point Wg :=

But here's a thought, and I think the fella is part of the Chinook black hand gang, there's a chinny crewman who is the size of Bournemouth and every stitch in his flying suit is doing overtime when he is dressed. He has the heart of a lion, answers to the name of the "ocerous" with the horn and has been seen and done things most of the desk bound rubber johnnys posting on here could only ever dream of being brave enough to do, me included................. so GW et al any of you fancy calling him a fat fecker.....:rolleyes:

[samuraimatt]

Shame your banter is 'RAF Police' standard though.

it is still three levels above AAC banter.

you'll never know

I doubt you'll ever go.

[South Bound]

SFFP
and if he can do all that and pass his fitness test why should we care? If in any way he sets a poor example to those that wish to follow in his mighty footsteps as a result of his bulk, then hopefully his colleagues and seniors will have the moral courage to call him that. That is kinda the point the banter is aimed at - making people see that it is not big or clever to be a lardy and we should not pretend it is. In some cases, it is not necessarily a negative thing either, but we must carefully observe to ensure that it does not become negative.

Can we back back to the banter now please?

SB

[wg13_dummy]

We too have a couple of large characters with equally large frames and they are gods amongst men. They are the exception, not the rule. (Just dont call him J*l*a* ffs! :uhoh: )

Surely the thread is about addressing the original quote?



sam,

it is still three levels above AAC banter.


Who cares, you'll never be a pilot. ;)

I doubt you'll ever go.


I'll send you a post card next week if you want?

[South Bound]

Shawbury I assume is the first place the students get to see their future Peers, what sort of example is it setting to see clinically obese bosses?


Indeed Wg13, time to back back to the question. Personally I think personal appearance is important. It is why we wear uniform, keep our hair short, shave daily etc, none of which would detract from an individual's ability to do their job, but we still do them anyway. It is all about personal standards, something the military must keep up in these times of declining standards in society.

[wg13_dummy]

Too true South Bound.

One hopes its one of the dividing lines between us and civpop.

I've noticed samuraimatt has only been in the services for about five minutes. I appologise for giving you the credit of being a fat old knacker.

Have you actually finished training yet?


Edited to add: Have you even started training yet?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

So now there are exceptions to the rule.................ah the goal posts are moving. So for some it's perfectly OK to be a fat knacker.....provided of course you are a God whilst for the mere mortals it's totally inexcusable.

Come on Wg make your mind up chap :=

Ever considered the two reasons why a lot of us light blue are a bit on the plump side and spend years being like it?

a Because our fitness test is so feckin easy to pass :ok:

b Because we know it really winds you brown jobs up :p


edited to say forgot reason 3........because in the main we are brighter invariably we are paid shed loads more and hence can afford more lard etc :p

[PTT]

wg13
Obviously to make up for the lack brain you have.
Starting with an ad hominem attack really helps your argument here. I commend the tactic :rolleyes:

If all you are after is 'just being able to do your job', poke off to SleazyJet.
Don't misquote me: you added the "just", I said "It's about being able to do your job, and ideally do it well." If you're going to argue with me then at least argue with what I'm actually saying and not what you want me to be saying. I do my job and do it well, just as many, if not most, overweight crewmen do. You were the one who wanted people to "look military", while I want people to be good at what they do.

Yet again, its not about being a bronzed, muscle bound adonis, its about setting a vaguely military like standard that the young chaps can look up to. Being a fat wheezy knacker with a sick note from matron doesn't exactly set you up to be classed as a cut above the rest, does it?
So looking the part is more important than being the part. Here I must disagree with you most strenuously - don't judge a book by its cover. As for "setting an example", I'd have to be pretty vain (and lacking a mirror) to want people to look like me!

I'd rather have a capable bloke with a brain who wouldn't become a liability if I had to start doing a Billy Whizz away from the teletubbies somewhere sharp.
Like I said: be able to do your job, and ideally do it well. E&E is part of that job in a hostile environment.

As has been said already, someone who doesnt have at least the basic personal discipline to stop being a fat bloke is probably lazy in the brain too. Show me ONE piece of evidence to back that statement up! It sounds like something made up by a few smug, fit, and fairly stupid people to help them get over their inferiority complexes because they didn't do well at school.
I'd also disagree with the statement itself: it implies that every decent invention or idea has been made by some skinny chap simply because they "thought harder" (whatever that means!)

Crab
until you end up on the deck in hostile territory and the fat tw8t can't run, slows you down and then gets you all captured (or shot) - very efficient!
Like I said above, E&E is a part of the job. Be good at your job is all I ask.

Sounds like the overweight lump with a brain is in the front of your aircraft
Another ad hominem? Although delivered with a smile the intent is still clear. Really, attacking the arguer does not detract from the argument itself, you merely distract from your own inability to argue against it.

How many posters have you seen telling you to dress for the outside environment not the crewroom or the cockpit - for dress read prepare mentally and physically and you have the answer to your poor arguments.
I'll say it one more time: E&E is a part of the job. The preparation for that E&E takes many forms and I agree that you should be properly prepared for it or you are not doing your job.
Simply stating that my arguments are "poor" does not make them so. You actually have to show the flaws in them to do that.

Not super fit just not superfat
Not super-anything. Capable, and able to do the job well.

[South Bound]

Come on Wg make your mind up chap :=

Ever considered the two reasons why a lot of us light blue are a bit on the plump side and spend years being like it?

a Because our fitness test is so feckin easy to pass :ok:

b Because we know it really winds you brown jobs up :p


Much more like it SFFP! Off now to continue this level of humour with my children!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

You sure you will be able to grasp what they are on about southy :p

[South Bound]

That is why I train on here - it is a great help, that and Dora the Explorer!

[Jetex Jim]

How times change, back in the day, we were ALL dead keen on "Health and Efficiency"

http://www.henaturist.net/joomla/

[PTT]

South Bound
Personally I think personal appearance is important. It is why we wear uniform, keep our hair short, shave daily
Not true actually. Uniforms were originally intended to enable the identification of friendly forces on the battlefield and have since become a method of personal concealment. Shaving and keeping hair short was for hygiene purposes - it prevented the spread of fleas and lice and subsequently allowed medics to treat wounds without having to remove hair from the area.

If the military were all about looking good we'd go to war in DJs :cool:

[AIDU]

shave daily

Looks like this fella forgot to pack a razor.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00207/TTH1321S1CM--185_207850q.jpg

[wg13_dummy]

Not true actually. Uniforms were originally intended to enable the identification of friendly forces on the battlefield and have since become a method of personal concealment. Shaving and keeping hair short was for hygiene purposes - it prevented the spread of fleas and lice and subsequently allowed medics to treat wounds without having to remove hair from the area.

So going on your statement above, why do we bother to wear rig in camp? (Sorry, wear uniform on base).

Nice come-back but I dont think you've really made a convicing argument regarding military people being grossly overweight.

Are you saying its ok for military chaps and chapesses being grossly overweight regardless of them being able to do their job?

Is being military just about being able to do your 'designated job spec'?

Surely the fatties should be doing something about it rather than spending all their time posting about why they should be lard arses on here?

[Airborne Aircrew]

WG:

I warned you...

On the bright side, with all the energy being expended on coming up with excuses and typing them out for you the "usual suspects" are getting a better workout than they've had in years... :D :D :D :D

Keep it up... You'll have them fitting in their flying suits before you know it... :E

[Brain Potter]

Blimey - this has gone mad in last few hours.
I will re-iterate my point (say it again) so that the gym-posers might at least try to understand.

1. You saw a couple of tubby blokes in the feeder at Shawbury.

2. You decided they were clinically obese.

3. You decided that they were wheezy and couldn't do their jobs.

4. You decided that they set a bad example to their students.

This is without knowledge of their medical cats or fitness test results. This is without seeing them perform their duties. This is without being taught by them.

I'd say that is at lot of inference (guessing) from one fact.

I'll make an inference (guess) of my own. By calling them loadys [sic] (from the latin (an old language)sicut in this context (setting) meaning your mistake not mine) you have never worked with SH crewmen.

Try these scenarios:

1. Take a "tubby" who is good at his job, medically sound and can pass the fitness test. Being thinner and fitter would be an advantage whilst legging it after a shootdown - absolutely true. Contrast that person with a gym-boy who smokes. He would be fitter and better able to leg-it etc if he didn't smoke. Also he is setting a bad example to the health of his juniors, as well as looking awful - shall we chuck him out too? Or do we accept that if both can pass the fitness test and do their jobs to the level that the service require then that is acceptable. Any improved performance offered by giving up smoking/pies is between them and their respective consciences (inner moral values).

2. These "tubbys" may well be medically downgraded after years of loyal service with broken backs, knees and necks - all attributable to the lot of an SH crewman. Consequently they cannot maintain the fitness and deployability criteria demanded by the frontline. Shall we simply chuck them out or put them in a suitable post where they can pass on years of experience and can-do ethos, whilst winding down towards retirement?

Just think a little more - it might be you one day?

[PTT]

wg13
So going on your statement above, why do we bother to wear rig in camp? (Sorry, wear uniform on base).
Two reasons:
1. It allows easy, at a glance identification of people who should and should not be on camp. Wouldn't you look harder at someone fiddling with an aircraft if they were in civvies? (contractors notwithstanding)
2. It's an historical hangover which has continued due to the basic psychology of the military mind (a different matter to the individual minds of those in the military in most cases!). See Norman Dixon's "On the Psychology of Military Incompetence", chapter entitled "Bull****" (chapter 8 I think, don't have it here with me here in the sandpit) for further explanation.

Nice come-back but I dont think you've really made a convicing argument regarding military people being grossly overweight.
Thank you but that wasn't the aim of my post. I was simply pointing out that if the individual can do a job and his/her being overweight, grossly or otherwise, has no effect, then there is no problem.

Are you saying its ok for military chaps and chapesses being grossly overweight regardless of them being able to do their job?
Quite the opposite: they must be able to do their job regardless of their being overweight. If their being overweight means they cannot do the job (e.g. fitting down the load hatch of a Puma) then there is a problem to be addressed.

Is being military just about being able to do your 'designated job spec'?
Define "being military". Is it anything to do with "being professional"?

Surely the fatties should be doing something about it rather than spending all their time posting about why they should be lard arses on here?
Why? If they can do their job and are an effective part of the military machine then they are taking their pay in good conscience.

Brian - well said.

[[email protected]]

PTT - I can see you have been reading Warburton's 'Thinking from A to Z' in order to identify an ad hominem argument - by the time you finish colouring in the pages from B to Z you might even produce some reasoned arguments of your own instead of relentless 'cut and paste with criticism' efforts.

Maybe that cutting and pasting was your exercise for the day - you should go and have a lie down.

Fat people in uniform look sloppy and unmilitary, regardless of their capability. Sadly much of that capability is often wistfully remembered from days of yore when they weren't such fat knackers. If they are good at their job as porkers, they could be good at their job and look military as well if they stopped eating so much. And, Shock Horror, they might even be better at their job if they were carrying less weight around.

Unfortunately our fitness test is crap and most only aim to reach the easy target standard rather than see how far they can beat it by. At the point I can't pass it to the standard expected of a 20 yr old (I'm 46) I will consider myself a double fat knacker and do more phys until I can.

Obsessive? No. It's just a matter of personal pride which I believe goes along hand in hand with professional pride. If you are a slob in your personal life, those same poor standards are far more likely to affect your professional life.

Healthy body = healthy mind anyone?

PS It's Per Ardua not Per Lardua

[TheInquisitor]

Its not about being super fit, its about looking reasonably armed forces like.

So, the crux of the argument here rests around what you LOOK like? That's the only thing I'm hearing here, once the bull**** is weeded out.

Let me get this straight - your complaint is that these fat f**kers don't LOOK military enough for you? I have worked with plenty of fat blokes over the years - I've never come across ONE who couldn't do his job because of his weight. You are ASSUMING that this crewman would have trouble 'humping and dumping' in the back of a helo just because of the way he looks? I guess we could save some money then, by chinning off STANEVAL, if you're good enough to assess someones ability in role with a mere glance.

You are saying that anyone who strays from your idea of what a 'military' person should look like should be binned, regardles of how capable they are in their role? You, my friend, have your priorities all to cock - I'd be very wary of doing any kind of Op with the likes of you.

And I would LOVE to see you tell a bunch of unshaven, long-haired 'hooligans' that they didn't look 'military' enough for you - and walk away with your teeth intact!

Thinking about it I reckon Rik Waller could push and pull a few knobs as well.
Sounds like you spend alot of your time 'pulling knobs' - mainly your own, in front of the gym mirror.

Who gives 7 shades of sh!t what somebody LOOKS like? It's a war, not a fcuking beauty contest.

[Politely_amused]

It's a war, not a fcuking beauty contest

Indeed.....Too many US war movies?

The key point here is that being grossly overweight suggests a supreme lack of self discipline.

If members of the military do not have the self discipline to look after their bodies it doesn't bode well for their professionalism... Yes that does not automatically mean individuals are not professional in their duties - but it's not a good first impression.

I do not expect people I work and fly with to be able to do the Commando course but in a 'war' (as you eloquently put it) - if we end up next to a burning wreck under contact I've effectively got a casualty straight away if fattie can't keep up with the break contact drills. That puts the rest of the crew at risk (and is easily avoidable – by not having someone incapable of running 100m with kit on the crew) and is not something I am prepared to deal with.

That is the point gents and I find it genuinely disgusting that people here can argue for the ridiculous notion that being fat is better! The only argument being that blokes who go down the gym might injure themselves or spend less time learning the job than a pie muncher.

I pray I never have to work with your ‘professionalism’.

[F'Wx]

Loadies fat?
They were only slightly podgy when i left the mob 2 years ago, surely the RAF has cut the amount of packed meals for flights enough, to ensure theyve lost the weight by now? :}

[[email protected]]

Inquisitor - I have worked with a few 'hooligans' in my time and I've never seen a fat one.

Blending in with the locals or being unable to wash/shave etc due to doing close surveillance is not the same as eating double pie and mash every day - unless you are undercover on an elephant seal colony:)

[Brain Potter]

Poiltely_amused,

I don't see people arguing that it is better to be fat. I do see people saying that medical cat, fitness test and continual on-the-job assessment are better criteria on which to measure someone's ability to perform their role than the arbitrary once-over that guidedweapon was advocating. Moreover, the crux of his indignity appeared to be the presentation rather than the substance.

Everyone could be fitter if they spent more time training. You may have set your own level that happens to be above that required by the service, crab@saa has certainly done so by achieving the levels for those much younger - good for both of you. However, you appear to be saying that those who don't, or who can't, set the same standards are ill-disciplined; even if they meet the level required by the service.

The nub of the argument is that unless someone is about as fit as you, or fitter, they are unprofessional. This could equally be applied to flying ability, professional knowledge or CRM. Playing devil's advocate - unless you are about as good as me, or better, in all those disciplines then you are unprofessional. You can't say "but I meet the standard required " because you have already rejected that argument.

Try it another way - Do you advocate folks doing sport during working hours? Instead of getting their heads in the books? Or only after their supervisors are happy that their professional standards are satisfactory (there's that same argument again).

I agree that grossly overweight is bad, but some of the jockstrappers need a reality check on the relative merits of this one aspect versus all the other attributes that go to make up a good operator.

"We only get so many heartbeats in life - I don't like wasting mine on exercise" - Neil Armstrong.

[Airborne Aircrew]

The point you all seem to miss is that you need to be fit to operate in the worst possible circumstances. That would be all out combat, (with an enemy for those that miss the point here), at close quarters. When it comes down to that you expect the people around you to support you but if they are too unfit to be able to do so your life is further at risk.

Gentlemen, whether you like it or not you joined a fighting force. Not a force the "projects it's air power" but a fighting force because, believe me, their airships will hand you a gun and tell you to get in a trench and fight if they see fit, (see what I did there). Despite what you may think the RAF is not a flying club for your personal pleasure and to pay the odd bill here and there.

The fact that you are prepared to spend so much time solidly defending unfitness despite the undeniable health benefits clearly demonstrates the depth of your lack of self respect and discipline.

I often said that should my a/c go down, depending upon the pilot, I would most likely go off on my own because I would be safer. The number of people that I would leave in this thread indicates that things have certainly not improved. No-one is saying that you are required to be a racing snake... But at least demonstrate that you try... It's the lack of trying that is probably more off-putting than incessant pie eating.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

AA you still dreamin the live then?

"The number of people that I would leave in this thread indicates that things have certainly not improved"

The folk you refer to are currently serving, walking the walk and talking the talk. You on the other hand chose to leave so do not sit in your armchair pontificating on something you obviously didn't have the minerals to see through :=

Bloody civvies :rolleyes:

[Echo 5]

Seldomfit,

Bloody civvies

It comes to us all mate. :)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

But some go with good grace Ebloke and get on with their lives whilst others..................:rolleyes:

[[email protected]]

Brain - nobody has said guys need to be gym monkeys, size zero or marathon runners - there is nothing wrong with carrying a bit of extra weight either (I've been doing it for years) but GW was criticising guys with physiques so at odds with what one might reasonably expect from someone in the Armed Forces that they become ridiculous.

It is possible to be 18 stone and very fit (see international rugby players for example) but they don't have several michelin tyres of fat stored round their midriffs and they do a shedload of phys every day to stay in shape.

You don't look at some 20 stone lardie with a lager in his hand and think 'I bet he's good at his job' do you? You think 'Fat git, needs to spend less time in the pub' If you think it is the right image for the RAF to project then you belong in a very different RAF than the one I joined 26 years ago.

[PTT]

crab
Warburtons make bread, don't they? :rolleyes:
Seriously, yet another attack on something that isn't my actual argument, i.e. they way I am making my argument, does not go any way towards actually rebutting the argument itself. I could tell you the Latin name for the logical fallacy you are making but you'd have to look it up in your bread-maker's book.
I used the cut/paste/respond technique so that those with brains which would not fit into a jam jar can tell which point I am actually referring to when I attempt to refute it. Since this is clearly not to your liking I will, for you and for now, refrain from the technique.

You have further made the assumption that since I have defended the right of people to be fat that I must be a fatty myself ("Maybe that cutting and pasting was your exercise for the day") - something of an unreasoned response. And yes, I know I cut and pasted that quote :p

Please tell me if I misunderstand, but the argument stated by you (and others here) seems to me to have started out as "fat knackers can't do the job". I responded that I did not care how fat people are so long as they can do the job. You now seem to be responding with "fat people look unmilitary". You have also added a second point that they might be better at their jobs if they were thinner.

For your first point, "looking unmilitary" is a matter of personal opinion. Some skinny people are perfectly capable of looking unmilitary and could remedy this by buying an iron and actually using it, and getting a haircut, but I don't see you haranguing them here. Short people are also at a disadvantantage, and yet you are not exhorting them to grow. Smoking most certainly looks unmilitary (and also has health risks comparable with being grossly overweight), yet you do not extol the virtues of a nicotine-free lifestyle. I can therefore only conclude that the "looking unmilitary" argument you forward is false - a smokescreen, if you like, for the fact that your problem with fat people actually stems from elsewhere.
Also, one person can only look "more miltary" or "less military" than another. There is no absolute scale of "militariness" where you can mark someone out of ten for how military they look - it's subjective. One person may give a particular subject 8 out of 10 for "military look" while another person would give the same subject a mere 6.
Due to the lack of an absolute on the scale of "militariness" someone can only look more or less military than the average military person, so there will always be "less military looking" and "more military looking" people. It's like height - people are only tall or short compared to the average. If the rest of the population was 5ft tall I'd be a giant - it isn't, so I'm not.
Finally, I refute the idea that "looking military" (by whoever's definition) is a reasonable goal in itself. Like I said before, mostly in jest, if the aim of the military was to look smart we'd go to war in DJs. The aim of the military is not to "look military", it is to be military.

Your second point regarding the ability for people to do their jobs better if they were thinner may well be valid. People could also do their job better if they didn't smoke, were taller, better looking and less ginger ( :E ). I look forward to you campaigning against all these maladies in due course.
On a more serious tack, fitness (which is what I assume you mean by "being thinner" - correct me if I misunderstand here) is also not an absolute - one person can only be more or less fit than another. We can, however, measure fitness in many ways, most of which are relevant to only one type of fitness. The RAF has set a standard it expects people to meet on some of those scales. If people manage to reach that level then who are you to demand more? Meeting that level is part of the job - having a certain BMI is not.

Finally, a genuine well done to you for maintaining your fitness so far, but your health will fail you one day and, from the amount of pride you appear to have in it I suspect that you will be in for quite a fall when that happens.

Politely_amused
being grossly overweight suggests a supreme lack of self discipline.
Well, smoking also suggests (to me) a supreme lack of self-discipline. To some drinking alcohol suggests the same, just as leaving the toilet seat up suggests a supreme lack of self discipline to many women. I am not ranting at smokers and nor is my girlfriend ranting at me about the toilet seat: it's called tolerance (although it's also because my girlfriend is several thousand miles away right now!)

Yes that does not automatically mean individuals are not professional in their duties - but it's not a good first impression.
If your first impression of someone is your lasting impression then you need to look deeper - the problem is with you, not with them.

I've effectively got a casualty straight away if fattie can't keep up with the break contact drills.
As I have said before, E&E is a part of the job - be fit enough to do your job.

I find it genuinely disgusting that people here can argue for the ridiculous notion that being fat is better!
Who said that? Certainly there are times when a little extra lard can be to one's benefit, but I think we've all agreed that fat is not "better". I'm merely arguing that it is not always unacceptable.

A_A
you need to be fit to operate in the worst possible circumstances.
Agreed. So stop smoking, boozing, eating red meat, and sleep 8 hours a night. No? Lifestyle choices, all of which have an impact on your health and all of which can be curbed by self-discipline. When I see you ranting about these things then I might take you a bit more seriously. In case you missed it, we joined the military in order to defend those self-same lifestyle choices: I like the odd tipple and also red meat, and I do not want to pray five times a day or be a part of a dictatorship (hmm...). I defend those choices by being in the military and my lifestyle is acceptable to the military.

The number of people that I would leave in this thread indicates that things have certainly not improved.
Feel free fella. You are certainly not what I need as the albatross around my neck when I'm evading an intelligent and persistent enemy.
Oh, my mistake - you're not even in a position to be able to do so, are you? Enjoy the armchair.

[PTT]

Sorry crab but I need to quote this one:
criticising guys with physiques so at odds with what one might reasonably expect from someone in the Armed Forces that they become ridiculous.
Which "one" here is doing the expecting and how were their expectations formed? Surely what you are talking about is actually prejudice: "one" expects people in the military to have a certain image which fits the model in "one's" head and "one" gets upset when this is not the case. Examples:
1. He looks lardy: he is unprofessional.
2. He looks Arabic: he is a terrorist threat.
3. He is ginger: he smells of wee. :E
The RAF "image" is for the RAF Corporate Comms people to sort out, not you and not I. If people are getting the wrong image then we have the wrong Corporate Comms people.
(PS - apologies to all the strawberry blondes out there, all in jest. I'm going to keep doing it though!)

[samuraimatt]

Oh, my mistake - you're not even in a position to be able to do so, are you? Enjoy the armchair.

Armchair warriors!!!! Don't you just love them? If the RAF wish to pay a fat loady to hand out butty boxes or teach new loadies to voice marshal then bring it on. Oh crap my flying suit just split whilst I was picking up the doughnut I just dropped.:E

[wg13_dummy]

Cripes. No wonder the Royal Air Force is going to the dogs with spin like that, PTT.

Civvies - Acceptable to be lardies.
Armed Forces - Not acceptable to be lardies.

You can write as many papers as you like on it, PTT but some things just aren't quantifiable.

Keep defending the rites of the fatties. It's obviously a 'life style choice' of theirs that they simply don't want to come to terms with. :ok:

And yes, it does look unprofessional.


Do the RAF Corporate Comms people include grossly overweight bods in the PR blurb?

[Brain Potter]

I am going to withdraw gracefully from this one. Parting shot:

Assuming the everyone meets a minimum standard of fitness as laid down by the service. I'd rather be in an Air Force where the common attributes amongst the aircrew are excellent flying skills - built on the basis of a first class flying training system - that nourishes our traditional characteristics of flexibility, innovation, self-reliance, cunning and wit. I'm happy to live with the demographic variation of physiques found amongst such a group.

What I don't want to be part of is an organization where the common characteristics are anchored in physical prowess, with the attendant demographic variation being in all the cerebral attributes that make us the Royal Air Force and not the US Marine Corps.

Must go - time for my body pump class.

[PTT]

wg13
Simply saying it's spin doesn't make it spin. I believe it's a logical argument: if you see flaws in it then please point them out. I'm not adverse to changing my mind if I see a compelling argument.

Civvies - Acceptable to be lardies.
Armed Forces - Not acceptable to be lardies.
I would disagree:
Civvies - do what you like within the bounds of the law.
Armed forces - do your job and ideally do it well. That job includes passing the fitness test! If you don't do the job then you are not being professional.

Looking professional is an irrelevance, maybe a nicety. Being professional is what counts.

If things aren't quantifiable then why are you ranting about them? Because you don't like it? Nice attitude unless you're CAS!

I don't know about the Corporate Comms blurb - not read it in a while. I doubt it does include them though. But then that's what PR is for - presenting the image you want presented. Spin, if you like :ok:

[Politely_amused]

PTT - How I would love to be in your chain of command to bring to bear some of your 'reasoning'.

I say again being grossly overweight suggests a supreme lack of self discipline. That is very hard to argue against. If people wish to smoke or drink - that is up to them and (surprise, surprise) the forces also have rules for that.

And Brian, having worked with the US Marine Corps, their exceptional professionalism and bravery under the conditions they have fought under in Iraq over the last 4 years on tours up to 15 months long is something that you will obviously never understand.

[wg13_dummy]

I'm not ranting, just agreeing with the common sense shown by some on here.

That job includes passing the fitness test! If you don't do the job then you are not being professional.


As some have quoted on here, the RAF fitness test isn't exactly a challenge. And as some have also said, people do find ways of getting out of doing it. I'll wager those that have found a way around it are the ones it was originally aimed at - the salad dodgers. Long queues outside sick bay prior to the test with lots of 'back problems and twinges in the leg' no doubt.

[TheInquisitor]

Gentlemen, whether you like it or not you joined a fighting force. Not a force the "projects it's air power"

Oh, silly me! So we're NOT about projecting air power after all? I look forward to your letter to CAS petitioning him to re-write AP3000, then.

The RAF IS a fighting force - but we do not (and will never) 'fight' the way the army does - we are not trained to do so, nor will we ever be required to. I can guarantee you that NO RAF aircrew will EVER be required to go running around the bondu, digging trenches, and tabbing for miles whilst carrying ridiculous amounts of kit. Yes, we are trained to E&E if the situation requires it - and I can guarantee you that, regardless of how 'lardy' one of us may appear, they will have no difficulty getting out of a burning aircraft and tabbing 2k if the Talitubbies are up our arses - this I know from experience.

The RAF fights by projecting air power, and doing so does NOT require that we are fit enough to get into close-quarter combat with an enemy - if we ever end up in that situation, somebody somewhere has fcuked up. Anybody you see out on ops, regardless of appearances, has passed the fitness test to the level required by OUR service and is, by definition, "FIT FOR PURPOSE". People paid alot more than you and I have deemed this to be sufficient, so who the fcuk are you to tell them (and us) that it's not good enough?

This 'soldier first, specialist second' mentality that pervades the army (and, in all honesty, serves it well) does NOT apply to the RAF. We are SPECIALISTS, pure and simple, try to understand that. We work differently to you, and as such have different requirements of our personnel. Nobody here is saying that it is better to be a lard-arse, just that it is NOT a barrier to service if you are fit enough for purpose (as defined by RAF leadership, NOT army). But then again, the army has never been able to see any viewpoint but it's own - THAT is an indication of severely limited capacity that would bar YOU from servivce as RAF aircrew (different requirements, see?)

Strange, though, how our waistlines don't seem to trouble you if we're coming in, under heavy fire, to pull YOU out of the sh!t.....THAT is what WE do, and we do it well.

The point is this - please, for once, get this into your heads - 'JOINT' does NOT equal 'ARMY'.

[wg13_dummy]

Oooer, saucer of full fat milk for the lardy above. :rolleyes:

[samuraimatt]

Oooer, saucer of full fat milk for the lardy above.

You forgot the pies. How on earth are they expected to keep the ever expanding waistline going if all you offer is milk?

[Brain Potter]

Alright then - a curtain call and some backtracking.

In no way did I mean to denigrate the US Marine Corps for it's professionalism or bravery. I am not a Yank basher and unreservedly apologise if offence was caused.

My point was the USMC are renowned for their physical prowess. They are soldiers in jets and for that reason the British Army holds them as a model for what it thinks the RAF should be like. However, their air power is solely configured for support of it's ground forces and they are often difficult to integrate into the wider air campaign. Many functions are performed for them by the USN and USAF so they can afford to concentrate on what they are good at. With broader responsibilities the RAF should not try to emulate the USMC and should uphold it's own traditions and characteristics, one of which is higher regard for brains than brawn.

Late for body pump now - it'll have to be Pilates instead.

[Maple 01]

See my theory for E&E is this, I don't need to be as fit as wg13 and all his gym queen chums (target rich environment AT!) , all I have to do is shoot him in the leg at the start, the perusing force will stop and gather round him and I'm away to eat another day

Once again RAF brains v Army muscle

[PTT]

Politely_amused
PTT - How I would love to be in your chain of command to bring to bear some of your 'reasoning'.
What? :confused:
Does this mean that you'd like to use your rank to silence me when I say something you disagree with? Oh for the joys of equality on Pprune :ok:

being grossly overweight suggests a supreme lack of self discipline. That is very hard to argue against.
Actually it isn't.
Being grossly overweight suggests a supreme lack of self discipline to you. It may not to others. Smoking suggests a supreme lack of self discipline to me - it does not to others.
Feel free to disassociate your opinion from facts at any time :)

I'm aware of a rule regarding fitness: pass the fitness test. Do you want a rule in place about fatness as well? Why? What relevance does it have?

wg13
Correct, the fitness test isn't a challenge, but the levels set are the levels set. Who are you to decide what they should be?

You can wager what you like, but until you have a shred of evidence to back it up (and no, so-called "common sense" does not count as evidence) then you are merely hypothesizing and possibly slandering, on a public forum, numerous people with genuine medical conditions such as back problems.

And "saucer of milk" is hardly a reasoned response... :rolleyes:

[TheInquisitor]

OK, gents, this is becoming very counter-productive now, especially so soon in the wake of improved Army-RAF relations following the BBC 'One Life' documentary.

The British Army are bloody good at what they do - and it requires a high level of fitness. The RAF are also bloody good at what WE do - and it does not. Let's just leave it at that.

Appearances bear no real relevance on the battlefield. I'll now bow out of this discussion.

[wg13_dummy]

Correct, the fitness test isn't a challenge, but the levels set are the levels set. Who are you to decide what they should be?

You can wager what you like, but until you have a shred of evidence to back it up (and no, so-called "common sense" does not count as evidence) then you are merely hypothesizing and possibly slandering, on a public forum, numerous people with genuine medical conditions such as back problems.

And "saucer of milk" is hardly a reasoned response...

Evidence? Evidence that if you walk (thats transporting your self without the aid of a vehicle) past an RAF sick bay prior to a fitness test, its conveniently and suspiciously full of a lot of growbag wearing (and non growbag wearing) types waiting to be signed off as sick. I don't think you need to be the MO to realise some of them are truly swinging the lead.

Slanderous? Have a word. Daft comment from a professional arguer no doubt.


especially so soon in the wake of improved Army-RAF relations

Who says this is an Army v RAF debate?

As far as I'm aware, I'm the only pongo commenting. The others on here who are commenting on fatties not being a good example (which is what the original thread was about) are, as far as I'm aware, RAF.


As per usual, the topic has been pushed away from the subject at hand - people being fat not setting a good example to the young types.

Fat and military don't go together. I'm suprised some of you are putting so much effort into arguing that they do.

From what some of you are saying, RAF and military don't go together. How embarrassing.

[Maple 01]

RAF and military don't go together.

Spot on, in the sense that to some in the Army military = "the Army way" which is why 'Purple' formations frequently have problems. There is more to being 'military' than shouting orders, doing drill and running assault courses - most of the better army types on joint units know that and let the other services get on with their bit.

If I went onto an Army web site and tried to lay down the law on how infantry tactics should be changed I'd be told to **** off because I have little inf experience

So if someone who's never been in the RAF.......

[wg13_dummy]

If I went onto an Army web site and tried to lay down the law on how infantry tactics should be changed I'd be told to **** off because I have little inf experience

So if someone who's never been in the RAF....

I wasn't aware that this was an RAF website.

I'm sure it says 'Military Aircrew' at the top.

If thats the case and you're RAF, you've just suggested that you aren't military, maybe its you who should..........

[MReyn24050]

These boys look fit and smart enough. However, I am not too sure about the hand on hip adopted during the right dress at 1.17min running time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unbpI7WQkF0

[SRENNAPS]

You really are a sad lot. I am so glad that I have left.

I just hope that some of you fitness freaks have the same loyalty to the Royal Air Force that some of the slightly overweight lads & Lasses (Obese in your eyes) that I have known in the last 30 years.

It was as honour to work with them because they brought morale and character to a Sqn. Most of you lot are in it for yourselves. You are so brainwashed and conditioned, you bring nothing to an Air Force that used to have a healthy “can do attitude”. They were proud of what they did and they enjoyed it. Most of you lot just moan and whinge about anything and everything.

Bring it on, you T$$SERS, because it is your attitude that is destroying the once great ROYAL AIR FORCE.

[PTT]

wg13
And when exactly did you last walk and RAF Med Centre, being the pongo that you are? Did you ask what was wrong with people at all or did you look at the date, think "fitness test day" and assume that anyone who appeared overweight who was in the queue was merely faking it.
I am, of course, quite willing to accept that there are people who will try and get out of doing the RAFFT - I'd be blind to human nature not to - but I put it to you that an MO with 7 years of medical training (minimum) is better qualified to judge fakes and toss them out of the office than you are.
So, your arguments have now been stated:
1. "people being fat [are] not setting a good example to the young types."
2. "Fat and military don't go together."
In response:
1. People smoking are not setting a good example to young types. Neither are people drinking to excess or philandering (often all three together!). They still damn well do it though. It's called a lifestyle choice - people are allowed to do pretty much what they want to their bodies so long as they can do the job. They have to deal with the consequences, and so long as those consequences have no effect on their doing the job, including the RAFFT, then there is no problem. If you don't like to look at them, don't!
2. I'm surprised that you're yet to be able to show that they don't. So far all you've been able to come up with to back the statement up is that "being fat doesn't look military", which is largely irrelevant since "looking unmilitary" and "being a part of an effective fighting force" are not mutually exclusive.
Daft comment from a professional arguer no doubt.
I'll take that as a compliment ;)
its conveniently and suspiciously full of a lot of growbag wearing (and non growbag wearing) types waiting to be signed off...
This statement caught my eye. Your emphasis on growbag wearing is telling. Remove the parentheses and you merely have a catch-all (you either wear one or you don't), so why the emphasis? Green-eyed monster? :E

Anyway, I'm off to watch some overweight blokes throw a ball around and beat up some Frenchies in the process. Honestly, the BMI of those forwards... :=

[Maple 01]

I wasn't aware that this was an RAF website.

Nor did anyone say it was, but you are commenting on a service you've never served in on this forum so the point is made I feel......unless you know better?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Maple, I do like your attitude, loved it - top rate.

Wg, you are taking this too seriously mate. There was bloke back in the late 30's who had some pretty radical ideas about people who didn't fit in to his perfect society. You are begining to sound a bit like him now!

I have yet to read anywhere on here where someone has written fat/overweight = best/better. It obviously doesn't and no one is saying otherwise. However, that does not make them a bad person or any a lesser person or aviator.

The stories about jockstrappers not being available for det' because they are injured or have to stay behind to represent the RAF or whatever are factually true. I have had tours in the sandpit extended because a well-known fitness freak on the sqn has hurt himself.

It would indeed be an interesting exercise to see how many 'fatties' lost a trip for being overweight compared to the jockstrappers who have got themselves injured. I think that the jockstrappers will win hands down!! I cannot ever remember anyone on any sqn scrubbing because of being fat.

Wg, your comment about the RAF and military was plain stupid and shows a large degree of ignorance. As a pongo, I hope that you never need the services of a Chinook or any RAF asset whilst you are in the sand pit. What are you going to do when you find some big, fat, hairy-arsed Loadie dragging your sorry arse into the back of his cab?? Tell him to bugger off and say that you'll wait for a slimmer, fitter and more 'PC Correct' loadie?? You are a fool.

If it was my sorry arse, I wouldn't give a toss how big and ugly he was, and he could be as unfit as hell. As long as he got me out of there, safe and sound, I wouldn't care a jot frankly!

Get over it guys. Some folk are thin, some are fat. Some are ugly and some are good looking (as I am!!) the fact is that they should be judged on what they do and how they do it, not on their size.

TSM

[wg13_dummy]

And when exactly did you last walk and RAF Med Centre, being the pongo that you are?

I'm guessing that you meant 'walk past'. I'm sure you will be aware of at least a couple of 'Joint' establishments. Ald and Odiham.


I am, of course, quite willing to accept that there are people who will try and get out of doing the RAFFT - I'd be blind to human nature not to - but I put it to you that an MO with 7 years of medical training (minimum) is better qualified to judge fakes and toss them out of the office than you are.

I take it you are naive and unable to see the bleedin obvious then? The obvious being that the waiting rooms fill up prior to RAFFT.


1. People smoking are not setting a good example to young types.

If I choose to smoke, I will do it in a designated area, usually out of site of the masses and more than likely, out of site of the people I'm supposed to be setting an example to. A fat bloater will be a fat bloater and can't remove himself out of site of the studes.


This statement caught my eye. Your emphasis on growbag wearing is telling. Remove the parentheses and you merely have a catch-all (you either wear one or you don't), so why the emphasis? Green-eyed monster?

Check my profile. Most definitely not.



Maple 01
Nor did anyone say it was, but you are commenting on a service you've never served in on this forum so the point is made I feel......unless you know better?

If I went onto an Army web site and tried to lay down the law

The opposite being that this is an RAF website? You’re suggesting I've come on here to berate the RAF on an exclusive RAF forum. This is a free thread and I was under the impression that anyone could comment on.....unless you know different?

Jointry and all that. :ok:

[PTT]

wg13
I did indeed mean walk past. I apologise for not proof-reading my last post, but you did got the point of the sentence, so nothing was lost.

Indeed I am aware of those establishments, having served at one of them for some time. You call me "naive and unable to see the bleedin obvious then?", but I merely ask that you allow those with actual medical training decide who is medically able to do phys. What is "bleedin obvious" to you is clearly getting past all those people with medical training. To paraphrase a quote from "Happy Gilmore": "what do they know, they're just doctors!"

You may well smoke outside and out of sight. You will still sink like an ashtray and those you are supposed to be setting an example to do in fact have a sense of smell as well as a sense of sight: they see fat people, they smell smoking people. Neither is a "good example".
Please justify your smoking in terms of setting an example to your people, the detrimental effect it has on your health (and therefore fitness), as well as on whether yellow teeth and fingers, depositing fag-ends and ash everywhere, and smelling of an ashtray constitute the proper military ethos. :E

Apologies for the misunderstanding regarding your profession - I tend not to read profiles as you can get misleading information. I generally prefer to argue in terms of the debate instead of about the individual, but the statement I quoted did strike me as odd.