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Mr Blake
10th Oct 2007, 12:46
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1287820,00.html

Just been announced that the future King will do a stint with the RAF, before transferring to the Navy to get some "hands on". Do Royals make good aircrew?

airborne_artist
10th Oct 2007, 12:56
He's going to learn to fly RW and FW during his four months with the RAF, the BBC lunchtime news told us.

Flying training machine must have been speeded up a bit, then. Still, he plays polo, so that'll make it much easier for him.

Jackonicko
10th Oct 2007, 13:23
How much will this cost the over-stretched defence budget, I wonder?

airborne_artist
10th Oct 2007, 13:26
How much will this cost the over-stretched defence budget, I wonder?More importantly let's hope his training doesn't get in the way of his 0230 midweek jaunts to London nightclubs with Miss Middleton :E

soddim
10th Oct 2007, 13:35
Looks like an opening for a QFI to light the blue touchpaper on his/her career.

The last two by appointment QFIs made air rank.

Training Risky
10th Oct 2007, 13:35
Flying must be in his family's blood...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19950720/ai_n13995636

Let's hope he has more skill at crosswind landings than his Dad!:p

Chances of Wills getting chopped....?!

The Helpful Stacker
10th Oct 2007, 13:46
Flying must be in his family's blood...

But surly any landing you can walk away from is a good one.;)

Axel-Flo
10th Oct 2007, 14:05
IMVVVHO,
"I think it is felt to be important therefore that William has spent time serving with each of the Army, Navy and RAF.
Serving in more than one of the armed forces is not unusual for the royals. The Prince of Wales, William's father, earned his "wings" in 1971 after training as a jet pilot at RAF Cranwell in Lincolnshire. (JP well it was a trainer then and maybe Hawk, likewise)
Charles went on to command the Royal Navy minesweeper HMS Bronington.
To copy "quotes" from the article it never fails to rile me when precocious/pretenscious journos use such words so inappropriately for example "serve". Its like making out that the RAF football team earned the Gulf War 1 medal for "serving" in Cyprus in the early 90s while doing pre season training. To be fair Charles did command having completed BRNC Dartmouth, OOW courses etc and Andrew completed proper tours as a Gp 3 pilot (FAA equivalent) and Beefer; but to suggest that a gizzit course or 2 for Billy should count as serving is just plain ridiculous. He'll be out for few badges like a boy scout. Cheapening the endeavours of the many others and "Few" before him for a further example of instant gratification. If it's worth doing ...............do it right. No credit for the short cut to greatness. Get some time in boy..... As Heir and potential King, to the throne of a Country I have served for over 25 years, I'd give you far more respect and credit for just doing one of the 3 properly.:mad:

craigJ
10th Oct 2007, 14:14
He's a royal, so is automatically allowed to go through flight training... makes my blood boil :* :mad:

DarkBlueLoggie
10th Oct 2007, 14:35
I'd give you far more respect and credit for just doing one of the 3 properly.

Well, he's done Sandhurst "properly". My impression was that he'd be in the Army, but doing familiarisation tours with the RAF and RN. Fair play considering he'll be CinC of all 3.

airborne_artist
10th Oct 2007, 14:41
From the outset his joining the Army has always been admitted as a way of keeping him busy, learning a bit about managing, having the edges smoothed off etc., rather than the military career that Harry and Andrew went for.

It's a pity so few of our elected leaders have so little experience/knowledge of life in a blue/green suit.

Mr Blake
10th Oct 2007, 15:25
Is a 4 month stint enough time to grasp the nuts and bolts, not forgetting learning to fly? Today's pointy things are a little bit more technical than the Few.

"How many hours have you done in Spits?

7 Sir.

Get your kit"

Ken Scott
10th Oct 2007, 16:16
What's the problem here? He's going to be head of the armed forces as king, so it makes sense that he's had a taster of all 3. There's no prospect of him going on ops, so it's really only a famil, and there's no way he can get to 'wings' standard in only 4 months, especially on both FW & RW. Be grateful that he is getting some experience of the services, compared to Browne, Hoon & all the rest of the incompetents that get put in charge as defence ministers.

Next you'll all be complaining about the enormous selection of medals sported by his father on his uniform!

Valiantone
10th Oct 2007, 16:28
I doubt there will be anything left for him to take charge of at the rate Gordon is going...... Nice barracks and Maybe pay and conditions perhaps but he will have got rid of almost everything else:ugh:


V1

ZH875
10th Oct 2007, 16:37
Next you'll all be complaining about the enormous selection of medals sported by his father on his uniform!


Or even the one that he already has (without the requisite 5 years service).

Mind you, it won't be many months before he gets as many nice shiny medals as his father.

Phil_R
10th Oct 2007, 16:46
Euclid said "There is no royal road to geometry."

Bah, what a total waste of jet fuel!

Phil

sitigeltfel
10th Oct 2007, 17:24
Let's hope he has more skill at crosswind landings than his Dad!:p

I remember with fondness the day his grandad told me to **** off at Manston when I asked him to sign for the fuel ASF had pumped into his shiny red Wessex. :ouch:

He was the captain after all.

Old Ned
10th Oct 2007, 17:35
Interesting views chaps, but this seems as daft as training engineers to become pilots for one to "gain an insight into operating aircraft". Yes, this did happen in the 60s, although all "dead moth" engineers have now retired. It didn't really work (funny thing that).

If the Prince of Wales (des) wants to see what the RAF is like send him to the sand as SAC Wales and then to MOD as Sqn Ldr Wales to see what the CS does to us! When he is king he will get to wear a top knob's uniform anyway(will they resurrect MRAF for him and his dad, I wonder) with wings, whether he earned them or not.

Hats off to Prince Philip who was career RN before he married HMQ and Andrew who did vvv well in the FI conflict. As for the others, passing through to get the tick!!

Bah Humbug :*:*:*

Coat getting. Taxiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

Melchett01
10th Oct 2007, 17:36
Can't see why people seem so surprised by this, after all as future head of what's left of the armed forces it was inevitable he would spend time with each.

And neither does it particularly bother me that he gets to fly; his father and grandfather both learnt in the same way. And as we are the Royal Air Force, whose business is flying, it shouldn't be a surprise that he isn't spending 4 months in Handbrake House or running Clothing Stores.

What I do find interesting with regard to his flying is that he is apparently blind as a bat and colour blind to boot. Surely that is more of an issue than the fact that he 'jumped the queue' to get a few hours in a Squirrel? So how far is he likely to get in 4 months - solo, spot of nav then time with an instructor in a bigger cab getting an intro to more of the tactical type flying?

ArthurR
10th Oct 2007, 18:23
Gordie has now said he is staying full wack, 2010, by then there may only be one force, wonder what they'll call it :mad:

Roland Pulfrew
10th Oct 2007, 18:30
Can't see why people seem so surprised by this, after all as future head of what's left of the armed forces it was inevitable he would spend time with each.


I can't see a problem either. By the time he becomes King he will be the Armed Forces - all of it. So perhaps just as well he gets to experience all 3 Services and get his wings if that is deemed appropriate.

izod tester
10th Oct 2007, 18:55
Old Ned claimed that training Engineers to be pilots did not work.
Tony Craig (an Engineer) came top of his course at Valley and went on to be the Lightning display pilot during his tour with 23 Sqn. Later when in charge of Lightning majors at Leconfield, he did the post servicing test flights. He went on to be a test pilot with BAe after he retired.
Did the flying thing rather better than most GD(P) in fact.

Double Zero
10th Oct 2007, 19:23
Isn't it a fact that any decent Test Pilot will have a very thorough knowledge of engineering indeed ?!

Maybe not all that much 'dirty hands' but some of that will I think have been involved, by choice.

Perhaps I don't clearly understand the remark that engineers don't make good pilots, but on the face of it this sounds more like the worst snobbishness of 'Officer class' thinking Oiks are best kept in their place -

I'd much rather fly with an engineer who knows what's going on, than a chinless wonder who's daddy was in the right club !

Recently I had the chance to try both types of pilot, very literally, in light aircraft with a small organisation.

The ex-RAF engineer was a good, careful pilot who was also fun to be with - the rich playboy who often turned up drugged / hung over was an accident waiting to happen, and I avoided flying with him as long as poss, advising other people of my trade to do the same.

When I did get stuck with him, he passed out at the controls, leaving me circling wondering whether to declare an emergency & get a straight in approach ( can navigate & 'fly' a light aircraft but not in a correct procedure way) thus rogering his career...

He came to after a while and got us back pronto for a rough landing.

I know I should have 'shopped' him, but hoped he might have learned - meanwhile he was failing all his airline interviews anyway...

That's an extreme example, but I do shudder when I read that engineers don't make good pilots.

gerry smith
10th Oct 2007, 20:18
Starting with K.G.V all male royals have been photographed in military uniforms sporting the pilot brevets of the three services. To my knowledge only the Princes Philip, Andrew, and Charles are entitled to do so, they having completed the course. Whatever the outcome of the next one, I predict an above average or an exceptional assessment, before the first engine start.

Chimp Boy
10th Oct 2007, 20:48
Surely with the R in RN and in RAF, age waivers, eyesight and the like mean bugger all, it's his family firm let him do what he likes. Much like all of us he will be judged by his actions and by history, except that he has a little more at stake. Say what you like you wouldn't change places!

Comments concerning Miss Middleton not required ref changing places.

Corrona
10th Oct 2007, 20:50
Read a book about an American chap recently who was equally qualified as an Engineer and a Pilot, and in fact practiced both simultaneously for most of his career. He claimed that if questioned as to his profession he would answer Engineer, he claimed also that it was easier to turn an Engineer into a Pilot than Pilot into an Engineer.

The Book: First Man. About:Mr Neil Armstrong.

We've all got a job to do....

Double Zero
10th Oct 2007, 21:04
Chimp Boy,

so as it's his ' family firm ' I'll ignore the various things I've read ( here and other places ) about Andrew being incredibly arrogant & expecting 'normal' helo' aircrew to carry his baggage ? I'm happy to remember that he was told where it was & go get it in one report, which may have been career-limiting but worth it...

Call me a cynic, but I don't see a carrier skipper ( always a career minded position in itself ) allowing him to really go into harms' way decoying exocets - would be a rather awkward phone call if the decoy worked & he took the missile...

As for Edward, I can only feel sorry for whatever poor sod was told to look after him joining the Marines !

Hadn't anyone told him flower-arranging is not considered a martial art ?

rudekid
10th Oct 2007, 21:05
I'd rather 'waste' some flying trg hours on our future King than on some of the rubbish visits/senior officer courses/ACSC/RCDS stuff that goes on. I know that this gets hidden under the guise of MCT/SCT or trg hours but there are still a lot of jollies undertaken for a lot of people.

Look at the number of Stn Cdrs that have done some sort of course on all types on their station and tell me that some (not all granted) of that isn't wasted or fat. What about OC Ops on some stns? What about AOCs, CINCs etc doing Senior Officer Courses on the Hs125 and BAe 146 and then not ever using their 'qualifications'?

I'm not saying we can afford any waste and would rather do away with it all and utilise our ac to give experience to our ever increasing number of low hours CR pilots.

Whether we like it or not, the Royal family still have a lot of influence. Questions asked, points made get listened to at the highest levels. I'd rather have a tuned-in, lightly qualified Prince William as our future King. He won't have power, but he'll be able to make people squirm with the right questioning.

Or would you rather have the CAS going solo on the Typhoon? Again...

Double Zero
10th Oct 2007, 21:33
Rudekid,

I'm tempted to think that hands-on experience for high-ups in the actual force may not be a complete waste of time, at least they get to understand their 'inferiors' jobs - so if they have any gumption ( here's the rub ) they can represent them in a better way...

As for the Royals, I'd suggest get him / them in a 2-seat whatever, and take them during a serious exercise like Red Flag or others - that might give them a clue & lead to fighting the right corner - that's if Wills or whoever else doesn't write it off straight after as a joyride time then go back to a fun lifestyle which does not involve nasty plebby forces stuff...

How would he feel about being on ( 2 seat ) QRA for a while ?

Captain Gadget
11th Oct 2007, 07:19
Corrona

Read a book about an American chap recently who was equally qualified as an Engineer and a Pilot...he claimed also that it was easier to turn an Engineer into a Pilot than Pilot into an Engineer.

The Book: First Man. about: Mr Neil Armstrong..

These would be the same engineers, then, who modified a 28v DC system to take 65 v ground power, omitting, (whoops), to modify all its critical components. They then (inadvisedly) used tank heaters continuously for 8 hours to burn off LOX which would not vent normally from the tank because it had already been damaged by mishandling (by other engineers) 18 months earlier - frying the unmodified components in the process, along with the insulation on the tank's internal wiring due to overheating. When the system was 'fired up' in flight, and given the propensity for LOX to go bang rather spectacularly in the presence of live, uninsulated electrical conductors, the predictable happened.

The ac? Apollo 13.

No offence to Mr Armstrong (whose own achievements were of course awesome) but some of the other engineering practices of that particular organisation - then and since - have proved, shall we say, sub-optimal.

Gadget :ok:

anotherthing
11th Oct 2007, 08:06
Double Zero

Thread drift, I know


As for Edward, I can only feel sorry for whatever poor sod was told to look after him joining the Marines !

Hadn't anyone told him flower-arranging is not considered a martial art ?

The military life is not for everyone.

An aside, would you be capable of successfully getting your green lid?

I for one thought that Edward made a brave call when he threw his hand in - he could possibly have scraped through by hiding behind his family name..... at the very least he could have made life very ackward for the training staff who may have had to decide to chop him.

He made his very public decision, despite the knowledge that it would be widely reported. Sometimes it takes a bigger man to admit that they are just not up to the job.

Brain Potter
11th Oct 2007, 08:14
Neil Armstrong was an Engineer in the sense that he had engineering degree and post-graduate qualifications. In some countries (Germany, Japan?) chartered engineers use the title Engineer like we use Doctor to denote a highly regarded professional qualification.

In the UK "engineer" is used in all walks of life for jobs that are actually being performed by technicians. In no way would using "technician" instead of "engineer" denigrate such demanding and skilful jobs - likewise the paramedics do not call themselves doctors. Our nomenclature does serve to reduce the kudos of engineering as a profession compared to say law, medicine, finance and perhaps makes it less attractive to the best brains - along with the pitiful financial rewards. In other countries engineering is regarded with equal if not superior social status - which may account for the success of their engineering and manufacturing industries.

That said, I can't imagine telling an Air Engineer that he cannot use the title Engineer and has to use something silly like WSOp - no one would be that silly, would they? :ouch:

Kitbag
11th Oct 2007, 08:19
Captain G, you forget to mention that Lovell (the mission commander) was well aware of the potential issues with regard to the No2 LOx tank, but rather than delay the mission the decision was made to press on. That is a systemic failure as it was not his decision alone, which NASA seems to have struggled to correct (witness Challenger).
To suggest that all engineers are incompetent in the manner you do is frankly childish. I would suggest equally that every ac loss due to pilot aircrew error indicates that no aircrew should be allowed to fly. :p
The critical point you make without seeming to realise it is of course that this was a chain of events, not one single person or group of people was responsible, although anyone saying stop this needs reconsidering would have ensured that the drama would not have occurred.

TorqueOfTheDevil
11th Oct 2007, 08:30
Daring to take the thread back to its roots, may I suggest that Wills spends his RAF time at a SAR Flight - a timewarp back to yesteryear, to the Golden Age of Aviation (well, the 1960s), an era before sand (beaches excepted), bullets and JPA, where all one had to worry about was a Red under the bed...

Silly me, he'll be too busy doing ISS, and if his stint in the RAF drags on a bit longer than planned, he might even have to do two fitness tests...

Art Field
11th Oct 2007, 09:51
Can not agree less with Old Ned re the value of flying training and indeed a flying tour for some engineers that occurred in the 60's. Although Tony Craig stood out, indeed he totally out shone me as a recent CFS graduate when I flew with student Craig on a so called instructional sortie at Church Fenton, there were other engineers whom I met that had a much better understanding of the aircrew side of things as a result of their flying experience.
Could it not be to the Services advantage for Prince William to have been given a chance to experience all three services, after all we need all the friends in high places we can get.

Captain Gadget
11th Oct 2007, 10:15
Kitty

Oh dear. You're not my ex-wife, are you?

Art F.

...after all we need all the friends in high places we can get.

Couldn't agree more.

Gadget :rolleyes:

Gainesy
11th Oct 2007, 10:44
As he's presumably good at pongo stuff, attach him to the Rocks.

ZH875
11th Oct 2007, 11:24
Will he be able to log in to JPA under his new rank within the four month timescale?

Mr Blake
11th Oct 2007, 12:04
You can guarantee his pay won't be f***ed up.

Fray
11th Oct 2007, 12:44
More to the point,

Did he sit the aptitude tests at OASC? I very much doubt it.

Old Ned
11th Oct 2007, 12:51
Pax chaps. It seems I misled you, my comment on engineers training as pilots was not to slam them. It was to point out (badly I regret), that a short tour as GD(P) was a waste. Engineers undoubtedly have the ability to be great pilots (US and USSR (as was) astronaut corps v valid case).

The idea was to have the RAF eng pilots complete one tour and then revert to their own branch again. If they had such flying ability, perhaps they should have had the opportunity to stay with it.

An eng degree is probably of more use than flying botanists or historians.

O N :O:O:O

Still going for my coat

Squirrel 41
11th Oct 2007, 13:13
Or as Mr. Wales is the first in his family with a degree, perhaps he should be streamed A2/A6!

Frankly, good luck to him - gilded cages don't look like much fun to me.

S41

brickhistory
11th Oct 2007, 13:30
Capt G:
These would be the same engineers, then, who modified a 28v DC system to take 65 v ground power, omitting, (whoops), to modify all its critical components. ........ uninsulated electrical conductors, the predictable happened.

The ac? Apollo 13.

No offence to Mr Armstrong (whose own achievements were of course awesome) but some of the other engineering practices of that particular organisation - then and since - have proved, shall we say, sub-optimal.

First, I'm impressed that it took longer than 4-5 posts for it somehow to be the Americans fault for your Prince's 'short course' in the RAF and RN.

Second, who was it that thought up all the amazing fixes to salvage that mission and crew? Engi....engi....something.......oh, right, engineers.

Third, get back to me when you've done the moon thing.

Even once would do.........shoot, how even an orbital vehicle?


(Ok, it was the Germans who made it happen, but they were AMERICAN Germans.........:})

Chicken Leg
11th Oct 2007, 13:45
Pilot Officer Windsor anyone?

Pilot Officer? He's completed Sandhurst and he's a grad which means he is probably a Lt already. That must be equivelent to what? Wing Commander, Gp Capt maybe! :E

Romeo Oscar Golf
11th Oct 2007, 14:20
Best of luck to the (Royal) lad. It does no harm to the RAF to have him around for a while. He will, like his father, be able to say whistfully looking at the fast pointy things, " It's rather sad that I'll never get to fly one of those on my own-(a Phantom in dads case)". Perhaps there will be a seasoned QFI/QWI around who could respond thoughtfully like Lt **** RN, "I understand sir, I guess I'll never get a crack at being King!":rolleyes:

Epimetheus
11th Oct 2007, 15:18
Or as Mr. Wales is the first in his family with a degree, perhaps he should be streamed A2/A6!
S41, Surely you jest. Since when was a degree required for the A2 environment? Admittedly those A6 types need something clever to cover the whole exotic range from satellites through radars to websites though. Their area only ever expands.

burpblade
11th Oct 2007, 17:45
Not surprising, but obviously it won't be helicopters - faaaar to difficult. Much more realistic to go and be a stick & rudder monkey and we'll let him have a go at the 2 Deck Dash.
I say "good luck" Your highness, Your Highness. :cool:

Squirrel 41
11th Oct 2007, 18:16
Epi -

Most of the A2ers I've met recently seem to be bright and have a degree (or two....). No bad thing given their job, I would've thought?

Besides, sure Mr. Wales can drink coffee and munch biscuits with the best! :)

S41

Gnd
11th Oct 2007, 18:28
Am I missing the story here or is he just getting a feel for the other side so that he can confirm he made the right choice, the green mob have a lot of air power of their own, might be a good way of getting proper wings?;)

Delta Hotel
11th Oct 2007, 18:44
Am I missing the point?

Both PW and PH are serving their Country - good for them!

Instead of sniping, why aren't ordinary folks demanding that the fit and young of British society step up to the line and volunteer their services in HM Forces?

Or am I just a lone voice.........?

Jetex Jim
11th Oct 2007, 18:48
This thread seems to have morphed into a discussion of the relative merits of pilots and engineers...

Clearly the RAF can handle the risk of another Windsor at the controls, but they don’t dare let him loose as an engineer.

What’s that old line about enough bananas and you can teach a monkey to ride a bicycle, but you never see a monkey fixing one?

Warmtoast
11th Oct 2007, 23:28
Starting with K.G.V all male royals have been photographed in military uniforms sporting the pilot brevets of the three services. To my knowledge only the Princes Philip, Andrew, and Charles are entitled to do so, they having completed the course.

Not quite. Although George V wore the pilots brevet on his uniform he was never trained to fly. The Duke of York (later George VI) served inthe RAF 1918-1919, gaining his wings in 1919. He was followed by his brothers Edward Prince of Wales (King Edward VIII, later Duke of Windsor) in 1929 and Prince George (later Duke of Kent) in 1930.

Here's a picture of three kings with wings.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/ThreeKingsandWings.jpg

Tony

12th Oct 2007, 06:05
Jetex - that's cos the monkeys are too clever, they sit in the crewrroom drinking coffee while someone further down the evolutionary scale fixes the bikes:)

Paper Planes
12th Oct 2007, 07:29
Doesn't Prince William wear glasses in private? I thought you have to be able to see 20/20 without distance correction to be a pilot in the RAF?

I guess the rules don't apply to him since he is royalty?

Ken Scott
12th Oct 2007, 07:52
Used to be 6/6 to join, then you could wear glasses/ contact lenses once you had your foot in the door. Not positive that it still needs to be perfect, & laser correction now permissable if it's the right type, though I suspect that's again only for those already in.

But Paper Planes, I believe the answer to your question is yes, the rules don't apply to him - he's royalty! When he's king the R in RAF will refer to him. I'd sooner have him as a Head of State than be a republic, with a President Blair/ Beckham/ Vinnie Jones or whoever.

Nominations for the 'best' candidate for President, anybody? (Thread creep accepted!)

Flipper_T_Rox
12th Oct 2007, 08:27
When I joined the Army I swore an oath of allegience to Her Majesty the Queen, her heirs and successors &c. I don't imagine that it is any different in the RAF.

I cannot understand why one or two of the posters here are complaining so vociferously when one of those heirs and successors states his intention to get some experience of their service.

We all know that as head of the firm he could just choose to wear the light blue uniform when he feels like it, and have done with it. Who woud stop him ? You ? They will be *his* Regulations at the end of the day, and easy to ignore. However he is going to go a lot further than that and spend some time wearing it properly. You should repsect his desire to get some hands on experience - however atypical - rather than resent it.

He is not a normal person, and never can be - however much he might wish to be. Things have moved on a bit since Charles I declared that "a subject and a sovereign are clean different things", but the principle still holds true. He could never experience a normal career in the RAF, nor for that matter the RN or the Army. Would you rather he didn't bother then, because he is unable to spend 20 years of his life working his way up ? Cut him bit of slack, and consider how likely it is that a politician would go through this process to get a feel for the services that they would nominally be head of.

You should be impressed, not derisory. Or maybe for some of you the oath of allegience meant less than it did to me.

Flip

P.S. To ZH875 in post #16. The Queens Golden Jubilee Medal was in the sovereigns personal gift, and amongst many other organisations was awarded to members of the Royal Household. Not all these organisations had the same award criteria, but even then I think you could argue that Prince William had been a member of the Royal Household for five years in 2002/3 . . .

Warmtoast
12th Oct 2007, 09:04
I guess the rules don't apply to him since he is royalty?

I had a friend a Polish pilot who fled from Poland at the start of WWII, flew with one of the RAF’s Polish squadrons, stayed on in the RAF after the war and in 1960’s was still flying in Transport Command. He was very Anglophile, married a British woman, was naturalised and had children.

In the early 1970’s his elder son wanted to follow Dad and join the RAF as a pilot. Sadly, according to my friend, the MOD refused him a commission on the grounds that both his parents were not British born. Which seems a pity given his father’s history of loyalty to the crown.

Anyway my point is that Prince Charles at about this time (early 1970’s) was training to be a pilot and was shortly to be commission as a naval officer, later to command of one of his mother’s fleet of warships.

Charles’ father Prince Philip was Greek born so how did Charles managed to get dispensation from the rule that applicants for commissions in the Armed Forces must have British born parents?

Now my Polish friend may have made this story up to cover possible embarrassment from his son not being granted a commission. But the 'both parents must be British born' rule does seem to ring a bell.

Any experts like to comment?

Stretch182
12th Oct 2007, 09:21
Flipper

Hear bl00dy hear !!!

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
12th Oct 2007, 09:30
One does not need an "expert" to grasp the basic principle that you can do what you want if your family owns the train set. The self same train set that the commendable lad will some day inherit.
He's learning the family business. Let him get on with it. Digging up the old "foreign Royalty" argument is providing little light and unnecessary heat.

Warmtoast
12th Oct 2007, 10:05
The Queens Golden Jubilee Medal was in the sovereigns personal gift, and amongst many other organisations was awarded to members of the Royal Household

Thanks FTR.

I thought the medal he and his brother wear on their uniforms was from the NAAFI to impress the girls "...there I was upside down at 200ft when..." or "...was deep in a foxhole on Salisbury Plain when I was jumped on by a paparazzi with cameras in both hands, but I managed to head-but him away......." etc

Clockwork Mouse
12th Oct 2007, 10:15
Flipper
Well said.

Thawes
Your Polish friend is incorrect. And you are an ass to boot.

EnigmAviation
12th Oct 2007, 10:51
Training Risky stated "Let's hope he has more skill at crosswind landings than his Dad!:p"


If I remember correctly was his Dad's problem more to do with downwind landings ? - combined with a lot of other factors like:-

lack of reverse thrust on the HS146
last minute .com arrival planning
late touchdown
Captain not using those well known words "I have control"

However if he has the usual "holding" post waiting for Flying training, he'll have finished in the RAF before he starts flying - oh no, how niaive of me, I forgot he has to qualify on Fxed wing up to Typhoon, do Rotary up to Griffin std and Truckers up to C 17 before he finishes ! - and still go clubbing with the eligible Miss Middleton at Bouji's.

I suppose if you give the boys a Golden Jubilee Medal apeice when they were not eligible under DCI, then it's all possible.

Which of the new Carriers will he command in the Navy?

ZH875
12th Oct 2007, 10:55
Which of the new Carriers will he command in the Navy?

HMS Sinking Ship :)

PMA's Toy
12th Oct 2007, 11:14
Doesn't Prince William wear glasses in private? I thought you have to be able to see 20/20 without distance correction to be a pilot in the RAF?

I guess the rules don't apply to him since he is royalty?

Did he sit the aptitude tests at OASC? I very much doubt it.

Does it still need spelled out? He's not joining the RAF for an 18 year commission as a pilot; he's visiting it for a few months on a secondment, and will probably wind up doing some flying training. I doubt very much if you'll see him doing EFT/BFJT/AFT/TW/OCU in that amount of time!

Can the moaning wannabes please stop carping on about him getting for "free" something they're after. He's not! I'm sure if he's rubbish and unsafe, his QFI will refuse to send him solo :uhoh:

Flipper_T_Rox
12th Oct 2007, 11:25
"I suppose if you give the boys a Golden Jubilee Medal apeice when they were not eligible under DCI, then it's all possible."

But the Princes weren't issued them under a DCI - how could they be ? They weren't in the forces in 2002. Both of them would have received the medal in their capacity as members of the Royal Household (and that's Princes through to footmen). Policemen didn't receive their medals under a DCI, nor did the Fire Brigade, Ambulance Service, &c. - are they less important than yours, just because yours was issued under a DCI ?

As I said in my previous post, the medal was in the personal gift of the Sovereign. If you've got a problem with them wearing it then maybe you should take it up with Her. Or maybe you would prefer to just wind your neck in.

Incidentally, have you got one ? Proud of it are you ? "Yes son, I got this one for being in for five years."

parabellum
12th Oct 2007, 11:29
"However if he has the usual "holding" post waiting for Flying training, he'll have finished in the RAF before he starts flying - oh no, how niaive of me, I forgot he has to qualify on Fxed wing up to Typhoon, do Rotary up to Griffin std and Truckers up to C 17 before he finishes ! - and still go clubbing with the eligible Miss Middleton at Bouji's.

I suppose if you give the boys a Golden Jubilee Medal apeice when they were not eligible under DCI, then it's all possible."


You are a very sad case Enigma and you should seek professional help.

airborne_artist
12th Oct 2007, 11:33
I know people who've spent three and four times as long holding while in the flying training pipeline than HRH is spending in the RAF to get his http://www.the-battle-of-britain.co.uk/graphics/raf-wings-2.gif

Maple 01
12th Oct 2007, 11:36
Policemen didn't receive their medals under a DCI, nor did the Fire Brigade, Ambulance Service, &c.

No, but they still had to do the qualifying time in the service

Warmtoast
12th Oct 2007, 11:39
Clockwork Mouse

Your Polish friend is incorrect. And you are an ass to boot.

Thank you for your erudite reply. It's much appreciated.

Flipper_T_Rox
12th Oct 2007, 11:45
Prince William started his service on 21st June 1982.

Prince Henry started his service on 15th September 1984.

That more than covers the 5 years you're so worried about. There were 1,883 QGJM (paid for by the privvy purse) issued to members of the Royal Household, members of the Queen's family and her representatives. These were personally awarded by the Queen.

EnigmAviation
12th Oct 2007, 12:05
Get a life Parabellum, it's you who needs the trick cyclist /shrink if you had your sense of humour surgically removed - we're all in the real world and do understand that Officer Windsor is just doing an extended "day trip" instead of doing lots of one day Royal visits.

But where would we be without some humour/cynicism/satire - even HRH Prince Charles liked the Goon show !!

Clockwork Mouse
12th Oct 2007, 14:27
So the purveyor of vitriol, when challenged, produces the old excuse "but I was only joking! Where's your sense of humour?".
Give me strength.

16down2togo
12th Oct 2007, 15:34
Hello there,
I'm neither british (german to be honest) nor military, but I'm wondering why you guys are so turned up by the messages of the future king to get some flying instruction.
Don't you think there is the same or even more support to the offspring of other governmental position holders, and then you will not have a garantee of seeing them heading the country in the future, anywhere else.
So I honestly think this is one of the lesser budget problems the RAF has and for you guys really in the services probably a little understanding by the future CinC at very little expences.
Just my ten EuroCents, haha.
Take care all of you!

rudekid
12th Oct 2007, 16:17
So then guys, accepting that whether we like it or not, he's going to some elements of fg trg, what would we (as if we have a choice!) like him to do?

Also, given that his father and grandfather both were awarded their wings (one under slightly more expeditious circumstances than the other) will he be awarded his wings?

Will he wear them if awarded, when in RAF uniform?

What criteris should he make to have them awarded?

vecvechookattack
12th Oct 2007, 16:18
Absolutely - after all , it will soon be his Train set so why not let him play with it now?

Biggus
12th Oct 2007, 18:04
I am more than happy for PW to get some experience of what life is like in the RAF today.

Alternatively I can live with PW being taught to fly with the RAF.

What I object to is the notion that PW being taught to fly by the RAF is being passed off (spun?) as him gathering experience of everyday life in the service. With just 4 months in total he will spend all of that doing flying training, and he will probably never get off the training base(s). Maybe the odd land away at an operational station so he can visit a FJ Sqn and talk to the chaps before flying back home for tea and medals?

How about he spends 4 months at a busy station, Lyneham or part of the SH world, seeing the everyday problems of generating/operating aircraft. Or will his view of the RAF be an aircraft available every day for training, lots of groundcrew around to service his 'kite', MT to run him everywhere, brand new flying gloves every trip/week, etc.....!

Pongocrab
13th Oct 2007, 14:28
Respect to our German mate.... forget the offspring of governmental figures getting some 'air time' in with the mil.... whaddabout a few of the the current 'front-bench' of the gumment (Sainted Gordon and his sidekick Des Browne) spending a couple of hours in the bowels of a Wokka in Helmand?...... Better still, perhaps they could be trained as 'Predator' pilots (airborne, naturally!!).

airborne_artist
3rd Jan 2008, 11:52
All to be revealed tomorrow (http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10006801o-2000331777b,00.htm) :D

peterperfect
3rd Jan 2008, 12:26
AA
nice link !

STRICT EMBARGO UNTIL 0001 HOURS 4 JANUARY 2008
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE / ROYAL AIR FORCE

pp

L J R
3rd Jan 2008, 15:32
and here's me thinking he would go from a week at BUAS direct to Conningsby.....I note he is avoiding Valley in winter, is that 'cos the harbour is a little chilly for the swim prior to strapping in?

mustflywillfly
3rd Jan 2008, 15:43
I'm going to have a punt at the following:

A reduced JEFTS (or whatever it is called these days) prob no more then 30 hours.

Then a quick stint in the TinCans at Linton maybe 15 hours or so.

Finally 30 hours max at Shawbs on the Squirrel.

In otherwords a total load of badly designed crap without any consideration to Training Needs Analysis, Job Analysis, the Defence Systems Approach to Training OR CREDIBILITY.

I bet he still gets his wings awarded (and at some lavish ceremony to boot) despite having only done "taster" sessions at each location!

Fair play having a stint with all three Armed Services to better understand what we all do. But only those who have completed a full course of training should get their wings whether it be RAF, RN or Army.

Ends.

MFWF

minigundiplomat
3rd Jan 2008, 16:07
He seems pretty adept at keeping his opinions to himself, and not making waves.
Perhaps he should be CAS......

Farfrompuken
3rd Jan 2008, 16:16
MFWF:

Fair play having a stint with all three Armed Services to better understand what we all do. But only those who have completed a full course of training should get their wings whether it be RAF, RN or Army.

Since he'll be awarded Wings under QRs (the Q bit referring to his Grandmother) and fairly soon he'll be both Boss and the K to which KRs refer to, I think he has every right to those wings. It is the ROYAL Air Force, you know!

I do agree, however, that the focus of his sabbatical with us should be on the Ops side, rather than the Trg side of the fence.

StopStart
3rd Jan 2008, 16:17
In otherwords a total load of badly designed crap without any consideration to Training Needs Analysis, Job Analysis, the Defence Systems Approach to Training OR CREDIBILITY.

No but seriously - who gives a crap about any that nonsense anyway? All any of that guff has done is slow down training and increase nugatory paperwork. Anyway - credibility? In what and to whom? He's not going to be leading a 4-ship over the border ffs.

Is it me or do some people have to moan about anything these days?
Good luck to the bloke. He gets a bit of exposure to the RAF, the RAF get a bit of PR, I get paid the same at the end of the month and no-one dies (fingers crossed). He'll get his wings, it'll be symbolic, there'll be another painting of a Royal in flying kit in CHOM and, er, that's it.

Give it a rest :rolleyes:

Edit: there are plenty of serving people in the RAF that could do with a sabbatical on the Ops side of things let alone our royals.......

Farfrompuken
3rd Jan 2008, 16:21
Edit: there are plenty of serving people in the RAF that could do with a sabbatical on the Ops side of things let alone our royals.......

SS, you're not wrong there!

vecvechookattack
3rd Jan 2008, 16:25
Exactly. The RAF are not training him to be a fighter jock or to any sort of level of OC. He is doing this to familiarise himself with what his Armed Forces do. You will notice that above the letters RAF on your wings there is a crown. At the moment that crown is his grandmothers but one day that crown will be his. If he were not doing this there would be uproar as to why the future monarch isn't interested in his Armed Forces.

VVHA

minigundiplomat
3rd Jan 2008, 16:31
If he were not doing this there would be uproar as to why the future monarch isn't interested in his Armed Forces.



Fortunately the Monarchy remains committed to the Military. It's the government which seem to be trying to hunt both into extinction!

Is the death sentence still extant for treason? You get Broon, I'll get a rope!

Davaar
3rd Jan 2008, 16:37
Melchett01 lists (post #19) his father and grandfather as predecessor pilots with "wings". Don't forget his great-grandfather.

vecvechookattack
3rd Jan 2008, 16:40
what about his Uncle Edward? Did he receive his wings?



:ouch:

airborne_artist
3rd Jan 2008, 16:40
Can anyone remember what the PoW did to get his wings? DoY did the full course in the RN, though he'd already done something very close to EFT (which he re-did at Leeming) at Benson before he went to BRNC, just in case he hadn't got it. As it happens, he nearly failed at BRNC - struggled with surface nav....

StopStart
3rd Jan 2008, 16:51
Ripping yarns here (http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/personalprofiles/theprinceofwales/biography/militarycareer/)

On being appointed Colonel-in-Chief of the Parachute Regiment, a few months before he was 30, The Prince asked to take part in the parachute training course.

The Prince felt he could not "look them in the eye" or wear the Parachute Regiment's famous beret and wings badge unless he had done the course, he told his biographer, Jonathan Dimbleby, 15 years later.

"I felt I should lead from the front or at least be able to do some of the things that one expects others to do for the country," said The Prince.

rudekid
3rd Jan 2008, 17:02
So, I wonder when he goes on his obligatory visit to Creedon Hill, will he get awarded his SAS badge?

No, thought not....

Is it only ours that's worthy of being degraded? Will he get an EOD badge when he visits those boys, what about a red flying suit when he goes flying (inevitably) with the Reds.

It matters not whether the crown on our flying badge belongs to his dad, his grandma or one of those bloody corgi things. You should still earn them, along with everybody else who wears them. I'm glad he's interested in flying with us and he should get the opportunity as head of state. But I really hope we don't give him his wings. Prince William seems a bright guy and must surely know that he doesn't get credibility from wearing a badge, as you might argue so should we. However, given the effort we put in, given the difficulty and commitment demonstrated to get these things in the first place, then I will be very upset if the RAF hierarchy (and lets face it, this will be an RAF decision) decide to award him his flying badge. If it's pre-ordained he has to get them, put him through the same course as everyone else!

For what it's worth, HRH Prince Charles, HRH Prince Andrew and the Duke of Edinburgh all earned them properly. Prince Charles F500 equivalent is interesting reading, apparently!

Anyway, before we all get too worked up, has anyone actually announced he is getting his wings?

Lionel Lion
3rd Jan 2008, 17:46
what about his Uncle Edward? Did he receive his wings?

Brown wings I heard............................................:)

pba_target
3rd Jan 2008, 18:13
"1995
July - The Prince of Wales decided that he would no longer pilot royal aircraft.
November - On The Prince's 50th birthday (14th November 1998) the Ministry of Defence announced that His Royal Highness had been promoted to "2-star" Rank in all three Services of the Armed Forces. The Prince was given the rank of Group Captain in the Royal Air Force."

Is that date per chance co-incidental with a certain prang....?

Wingswinger
3rd Jan 2008, 18:14
He's a royal, so is automatically allowed to go through flight training... makes my blood boil

Well, it is his grannie's flying club. :}

nick986
3rd Jan 2008, 18:58
If he is Army then when he finishes surely he will get Army Wings? :ok:

spheroid
3rd Jan 2008, 19:16
Rudekid, you clearly don't understand the role of the Monachry.

Is it only ours that's worthy of being degraded? Will he get an EOD badge when he visits those boys, what about a red flying suit when he goes flying (inevitably) with the Reds.

He won't go flying with the Reds. The reds will go flying with him.

It matters not whether the crown on our flying badge belongs to his dad, his grandma or one of those bloody corgi things. You should still earn them, along with everybody else who wears them.

Of course it does. The flying badge belongs to the Monarchy. It is theres to award to those who they feel fit to award to. Have a look at the USAF wings..... hmmmm

rudekid
3rd Jan 2008, 19:51
Spheroid

Rudekid, you clearly don't understand the role of the Monachry.

No, I agree with you. I have no idea of their role;) But if you mean the monarchy, then I'm still not 100% with you either.

Now let's both assume that I'm not knocking the Royal family here, nor Her Majesty and her role as head of state, but let's be realistic. This decision will be a service decision, probably taken (I hazard a guess) by CAS, with guidance from AOC 22 or maybe the Air Sec. Of course, HRH Lt Wales could wear whatever he wants and none would challenge him except in anonymous forums like these. Of course that's not likely either, as by all accounts, he is a bright, thoughtful individual who wouldn't want to irritate his service colleagues by demeaning them nor their awards from his grandmother. So really then, it boils down to the RAF awarding them to him.

Granted, this is all good PR for the RAF (I don't disagree) but given that we have already been told there's a short timescale for HRH to get a taste of all things RAF, then it strikes me as a fairly easy question for the CAS to ask. Can I award him his wings based on what we can give him in condensed timeframe? The answer to this question (IF posed) won't be answered negatively by any 2*, so we know the end outcome. HRH will get awarded his wings and they will (in my opinion) be diminished.

I would bet my mortgage that 22 SAS wouldn't reduce their criteria to award their 'badge' to a Royal (hat on standby for eating, house keys in post) if he hadn't passed selection.

If we (as a service) want him to wear them (and I don't think it's a bad thing) then WE should respect ourselves enough to honour those who wear them, those who've gone before and those yet to wear them. Put him through what everyone else does. Or accept we have little self respect.

AdanaKebab
3rd Jan 2008, 20:37
The Royals can do as they please, it's their train set ... but us mere mortals can't complain when we were doing it from the start. Trenchard set himself a flying and ground examination, correcting his own paper and awarding himself his wings!!!

Davaar
3rd Jan 2008, 22:09
Theres nothing, bar nothing that demeans our uniform more than a peacock wearing one"?

So, let's see:

HM King George VI: Battle of Jutland, gunnery officer, HMS Collingwood;
Submarines (one of which sank with him on board);
Pilot's Flying Badge, 1919;
Admiral of the Fleet Lord Louis of Battenberg: 1st Sea Lord;
Admiral of the Fleet the Earl Mountbatten of Burma: 1st Sea Lord;
HRH the Duke of Edinburgh: long service RN, WW2 and later, Pilot's Flying Badge;
HRH the Prince of Wales: RN service, surface command at
sea; submarine training; Pilot's
Flying Badge; parachute training; at least one
trip below the Arctic ice;
HRH the Duke of York: regular RN service, Pilot's Flying Badge; active
service in the Falklands campaign.
HRH the Prince William: RMA Sandhurst;
HRH the Prince Harry: RMA Sandhurst.

Is this so essentially trivial a record (admittedly omits one death on active service and incomplete) for one extended family?

minigundiplomat
3rd Jan 2008, 22:28
Rudekid, you told me other day you were just a bus driver! However, just to add fuel to your fire, the Royal Marines didn't see fit to give his Uncle Edward a green beret.

benzonar
4th Jan 2008, 00:20
Great to see the BBC at their usual high level of reporting :confused:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7170927.stm

Group Captain Nick Seward said as future head of the armed forces it was important that William understood the "ethos and history" of the Navy.

They will no doubt change it later when some dullard realises the mistake.

cargosales
4th Jan 2008, 00:25
"STRICT EMBARGO UNTIL 0001 HOURS 4 JANUARY 2008
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE / ROYAL AIR FORCE"

Oh dear ... even with that amount of time to get the story right, dear old Aunty Beeb can't hack it :yuk:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7170927.stm

From that story:

Prince William is to train as a pilot during a four-month attachment with the Royal Air Force.


As Flying Officer Wales, he will fly helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft at the RAF's school in Lincolnshire.
Group Captain Nick Seward said as future head of the armed forces it was important that William understood the "ethos and history" of the Navy.


Errrr, EXCUSE ME .. THE NAVY???????

Is there something we should know?

Edit: Bonzonar beat me to it but I was typing at the time :uhoh:

Archimedes
4th Jan 2008, 00:26
Or it could be that the Group Captain was being terribly 'purple'.

(And no prizes Army/RN Ppruners for suggesting that the RAF doesn't have a history or ethos for HRH to learn about...) :}

Davaar
4th Jan 2008, 00:40
Old story:

War Office complains to Air Council and Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty that officers of the RAF and officers of the RN refer to army officers as "Pongoes". Dashed offensive! What? Kindly cease and desist!

Air Ministry issues AMO: "The War Office has informed the Air Council that officers of the Royal Air Force are in the habit of referring to Army Officers as 'Pongoes'. This practice will cease forthwith. Officers of the Royal Air Force will refer to Army Officers as 'Army Officers'.

Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty issue an AFO: "The War Office has informed the Lords Commisioners of the Admiralty that officers of the Royal Navy are in the habit of referring to Pongoes as 'Pongoes'. This practice will cease forthwith. Officers of the Royal Navy will refer to Pongoes as 'Army Officers'.

Good Golly Miss Molly! Truth becomes stranger than fiction. Manoeuvre well executed, Gp Capt Seward!

cargosales
4th Jan 2008, 01:01
Beeb Website updated to read:

Group Captain Nick Seward said as future head of the armed forces it was important that William understood the "ethos and history" of the RAF.

brakedwell
4th Jan 2008, 06:42
On completion of his "course" will he be entitled to wear RAF Wings above all the medals mummy is bound to give him?
BBC News 4th January 2008
Prince William serves with the Household Cavalry
Prince William is to train as a pilot during a four-month attachment with the Royal Air Force.
As Flying Officer Wales, he will fly helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft at the RAF's school in Lincolnshire.
Group Captain Nick Seward said as future head of the armed forces it was important that William understood the "ethos and history" of the RAF.
His instructor, Flight Lieutenant Rob Lees, said he faced a "very demanding" course just like any other trainee.
After a year in the Army as part of the Household Cavalry's Blues and Royals, this will be the latest stage in Prince William's military training.
In early summer, he will start a final attachment with the Royal Navy.
Future role
The BBC's royal correspondent Nicholas Witchell said learning to fly was both a family tradition and personal ambition for William.
Group Captain Seward said: "The idea of him coming for a four-month attachment is to prepare him for his future as head of the armed forces.
He will have a limited amount of time to achieve the right standards so it's very demanding
Flight Lieutenant Rob Lees
"It's important that he sees our ethos, our history and how we differ from the Army."
Prince William will begin his pilot's training at RAF Cranwell on Monday.
Flight Lieutenant Lees said he would be treated just like any other new recruit.
"All our students have time constraints that they have to get all the skills and achieve all the required standards in," he said.
"And Prince William will go through the same thing.
"He will have a limited amount of time to achieve the right standards so it's very demanding."
William follows in the footsteps of his uncle Prince Andrew who learned to fly at RAF Leeming, Yorkshire and served with distinction in the Falklands War on the aircraft carrier HMS Invincible.
Prince Charles also learned to fly at RAF Cranwell in 1971 and later qualified as a helicopter pilot.
He served with 845 Naval Air Squadron on commando flying duties, operating from the aircraft carrier HMS Hermes.

country calls
4th Jan 2008, 07:26
Quote "On completion of his "course" will he be entitled to wear RAF Wings above all the medals mummy is bound to give him?" Unquote

His mummy couldn't award stuff when she was alive, so it is going to be a bit difficult now she is pushing up daisys!

Squawk7143
4th Jan 2008, 07:30
"On completion of his "course" will he be entitled to wear RAF Wings above all the medals mummy is bound to give him?"


I must be getting old, I thought you had to complete OCU successfully before being allowed to retain the Pilot Brevet? Anyway even to "wings" standard , 4 months will mean a significant hourly flying rate. Given the peculiarities of the British weather that will be some achivement eh?

Not sure how 4 months of expensive flying training will teach him the "ethos and history" of the RAF. Can't he learn this by reading a book or sitting in a less expensive classroom.

Never mind me folks, I must be getting cynical with the advancing years. :)

mustflywillfly
4th Jan 2008, 07:53
So, if you read the Beeb website then they would have us believe that Prince William has a personal ambition to train as a pilot.

Well that's ok then. He should cream the whole lot in 4 months and achieve his goal.

4 Months!!!!!!! If it were my trainset (as has been quoted sooo many times on here) and I had a personal ambition to train as a pilot then I would do the bloody thing properly.

I wonder how many bods at Cranditz will waffle to the media today about how it will be very tough and he will have to make the grade etc etc etc. That's like saying that obviously the chocolate teapot will be expected to boil water just like any other teapot. At the very least they should brief that it normally takes 3 years to train as pilot but Prince William is just having a familiarisation. Otherwise those dumb lot in the media will be reporting that flying training only lasts 4 months. I'll be screwed as my other half will wonder where I was for the other 2 years!!:}

Fair enough that he wants to "have a stab" (not the same stabbing as Uncle Ted) but come on people, tell the sodding truth!

ZH875
4th Jan 2008, 07:54
Flight Lieutenant Lees said he would be treated just like any other new recruit.



Yeah Right....


....And Gordon Brown is a true gentleman.:hmm:

Admin_Guru
4th Jan 2008, 08:21
Flight Lieutenant Lees said he would be treated just like any other new recruit.


So he will be taught by whichever shag is available rather then hand picked instructors then!

.....and when his cab is u/s on start the sortie will be cancelled as there are no others?

...and if the weather is crap the sortie will go anyway because that is character building.

Is he going to fly with the Navy afterwards?? Rumour I heard was that he wants to be a Sarboy.

GPMG
4th Jan 2008, 08:34
" the Royal Marines didn't see fit to give his Uncle Edward a green beret."

As the T-shirt says.....
'You can turn a Frog into a Prince, but you can't turn a prince into a Royal Marine'

I can't believe all of this whinghing that going on. Last time I looked it said Royal Airforce on the tin, he's a Royal so I guess that if not now then at some point in the future you belong to him (in name only). Mind you the RAF by then will probably consist of 10 Predator UAV's, 20 x 13 year old spotty Playstation geeks and an Alsatian guard dog called Bert.

If the Prince wants to see what it's like in all 3 services doing the fun bits then let him, I bet you wouldnt turn down the opportunity for 3 years swanning around officers messes and only doing the interesting aspects of each job.

At the end of the day you'll see RAF Roundels and Typhoons splashed all over the Mail/Sun/Express front pages and good publicity all round. Some of you may even get one of those "Oh ya, I know King willy" stories that you can yarn on about at dinner parties when your old.

airborne_artist
4th Jan 2008, 08:36
Anyone know his OASC scores? :E

TheSmiter
4th Jan 2008, 08:37
So the future King is going to learn FW and RW to wings standard AND learn our ethos / history AND (more importantly) convince JPA he's in the RAF not the Army AND get his travel claim sorted out. All in 4 months! Impressive. Hope the wannabe's up above have noted this course progression and request it during their OASC interview.

On the bright side, this demanding course will prevent him falling out of Boujis with Kate. What's Lincoln like these days?

Look forward to seeing Wills up here at ISK if the Lincs wx is as shown today!

ZH875
4th Jan 2008, 08:38
It will be Handbags at dawn...


..He will be using his Uncle Edward's supply of bags.

brakedwell
4th Jan 2008, 09:07
Not worth visiting since the Saracen's Head closed down.
Anybody know if the Co-op Ballroom is still going strong? :E:E:E

airborne_artist
4th Jan 2008, 09:42
Clip on BBCi (http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7170000/newsid_7171000/7171041.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&bbcws=1#)

debsh
4th Jan 2008, 10:02
Granted that those foreign types are not the same as our chaps and their armed forces are distinctly different if not inferior . . . but when Baudouin succeeded to the Belgian throne, he decided he should do the pilot course to earn his wings.
He was short-sighted; the Belgian CAS told him that he didn't meet the medical standards required for a pilot. So the king never did have the brevet on his uniform.
Willem Alexander, currently Crown Prince of the Netherlands, earned his the hard way and spent several years flying cabs for the RNethAF - including in support of the operations in the Balkans. Indeed, he drew the Christmas duty more than once.
Finally, Hussein of Jordan. Great pilot who had a Swiss airline rating amongst other things. The Swiss, not being great monarchists, gave him a hard time but he qualified with exceeding good marks. He also had an impressive military pedigree.
Incidentally, Albert later George VI never flew solo. Dad, George V who gave himself the wings on the grounds it was his damned Air Force, decreed that none of his sons should fly on their own. Both George and David (Edward VIII) did their 'solo' flights with an instructor who promised faithfully not to handle the controls.
This fine royal tradition was broken by the Duke of Kent (killed during WW2) who qualified in the normal manner all the way up to multi-engined.
In truth, I don't see how William devote three years to training but a quickie course will turn him out better qualified than a First World war pilot . . . And they wore the badge.

enginesuck
4th Jan 2008, 10:04
So will every cab he takes up be classed as a royal flight then? I remember when HRH the Duke of Edinburgh went flying on one of ours we had to pull all the Out of Phase inspections early and do a **** lot of maintenance (just in case I suppose) Lots of polish and floor tape as well if I remember. Wouldnt want to be a groundie at linton or shawbury thats for sure even if they are all civvies.

serf
4th Jan 2008, 10:18
Do you think he will pass the RAF fitness test?

Fg Off Max Stout
4th Jan 2008, 10:22
I for one am delighted that Prince William will spend some time as a Royal Air Force Officer and, to be honest, I am quite surprised how many members of the Royal Air Force in this forum seem hostile to this news. I suppose many here just like to have something to grumble.

I personally think we should feel proud and honoured that the future King wishes to spend a period of his life as a member of the Royal Air Force. No doubt, this will lead to a lifetime of unwavering, loyal support of the Armed Forces that is a characteristic of all senior members of the Royal Family. Nobody can possibly seriously expect the chap to complete a full wings course (and then an OCU to keep them) - it is quite likely that he does not have the aptitude to be a frontline skygod: not many do. However, if he trains to EFT solo standard and the BRWFT solo standard, he will have had a small taster of what the RAF is all about, and as our future 'Commander in Chief' and strong supporter, I would feel proud to see the King wear our wings.

The contrast between Royalty and politicians is obvious. How many current members of Government have any experience of, are have ever expressed an interest in, the Armed Forces? How many joined the OTC, URNU or UAS (even if only to reach solo standard)? Close to, or actually, none, I believe. Consequently, no MPs hold the Forces in any esteem resulting in the usual messes you read about in these pages.

We should be very pleased about this news. It can only serve the RAF well.


As for the Cranwell nightlife, this place served me well when I was on IOT. I had to take the pic for sentimental reasons when I last popped into RAFC. Flicks of Sleaford: both awful and wonderful at the same time. Your standard issue provincial nightclub, complete with sticky carpets, Chesney Hawkes, police busts and obese strippers. Oh the memories.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y224/bofns/IMAGE_00015.jpg

Fg Off Max Stout
4th Jan 2008, 10:28
Do you think he will pass the RAF fitness test?

Is that a serious question? Yes, I have no doubt that he would.

TheSmiter
4th Jan 2008, 10:30
At the end of the day, its Grandma's train set and she can do what she likes with it - even give her favourite grandson his wings! Haven't got an issue with that.

I just wonder how this happy snappy PR story will play with Joe Public; in the current cash strapped environment when we're constantly bleating about being stretched (but not overly :hmm:) it appears we can still afford to provide men and resources for a 'bespoke' flying course leading to an understanding of our history and ethos. Hmmmmm?

I'd love to hear the views of any holding plebeians.

And being the consummate cynic, I'm guessing the FJ / AT / RW acquaints will involve photo opps on Typhoon, C17 and Merlin?

Anyway, enough of my whinging, good luck to the lad.

PS Sir, when you div into balmy RAF Moray, if you need directions to Joannas, please PM.

GPMG
4th Jan 2008, 10:33
So the future King is going to learn our history

LOL, should manage that during his first NAAFI break. :)

airborne_artist
4th Jan 2008, 10:35
Consequently, no MPs hold the Forces in any esteem resulting in the usual messes you read about in these pages.

I think you mean Noo Liabour MPs - plenty on the opposite benches with military service behind them. Viggers ex-RAF and TA RA, while four (Robathan, Davies, Brazier and Holloway) served with the hooligans (Regular and TA).

scribbler614
4th Jan 2008, 10:39
Am baffled by all the grumbling and griping here.
Would you rather he got to wear the 'peacock' uniform in years to come without even this (rather brief) experience?
Perhaps you'd rather he didn't wear it at all, and you were rebranded as the British Air Force? :eek:

Here's a chance for some cracking good PR in your anniversary year.
Just imagine a nice TV package of HRH doing a solo circuit in the trusty Tutor, emerging to smooth down his bald-spot, lean nonchalantly against the wing and tell the assembled media how truly fantastic the ROYAL Air Force is. It'll be shown around the world, and cynicism aside, that is not without value.

Assuming it's a good landing, that is. Err...

minigundiplomat
4th Jan 2008, 10:47
I'd laugh my Co@k off if he did a few months and PVR'd.

GPMG
4th Jan 2008, 10:57
Of course the only way MGD would give the bloke any respect would be if he spent 10 yrs in Afganistan living in a slit trench, picking up bits of dead comrades whilst flying harriers 2 inches off the deck, killing millions of terrorists, getting covered in mud blood and faeces., just like him.

I doubt anyone is as gnarly or as salty as MGD.

Grrrrrrizzzeled. A real Audie Murphy.

ZH875
4th Jan 2008, 11:05
Just watch the politicians, I reckon, if HRH Prince William can get his wings in 4 months, then they will be looking at chopping the length of all flying training, as it cannot be that difficult, if HRH can do it and still manage to arrange lots of parties and do's with his brother HRH Prince Wingealot.


Think of the financial savings to the treasury.

doubledolphins
4th Jan 2008, 11:14
"The Navy has Tradition, The Army Custom and the RAF dirty little habits", was a quote from a very famous and highly decorated former RAF Senior Officer. I supose HRH can develop quite a few in four months. :ok:

(And the reason we have a Navy? To provide worthwhile employment for the male members of the Royal Family and husbands for the more strong minded female ones.);)

SirToppamHat
4th Jan 2008, 11:15
Presumably he'll go to RAFCAM at some point early on?

I wonder what he'll make of the core menu in the Henlow Mess? PAYD ... nice!

STH

2close
4th Jan 2008, 11:28
Do you think he will pass the RAF fitness test?

Is that a serious question? Yes, I have no doubt that he would.

Really?

Regardless of whose grannie's gang it is, do you not think it is a dangerous precedent accepting colour blind individuals for RAF flying training when the RAF's own medical standards require Colour Percerptiveness Grading CP2 for aircrew, i.e. no errors on Ishihara Colour Vision Testing?

It has been reguarly published that HRH is colour blind.

Interesting shift in policy.:confused:

brakedwell
4th Jan 2008, 11:32
(And the reason we have a Navy? To provide worthwhile employment for the male members of the Royal Family and husbands for the more strong minded female ones.)
Plus an excuse for the aformentioned lady to wear a rather "fetching" fancy dress uniform :eek:

ZH875
4th Jan 2008, 11:42
I bet he still gets his wings awarded (and at some lavish ceremony to boot) despite having only done "taster" sessions at each location!

From the Lincolnshire Echo (http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=156130&command=displayContent&sourceNode=242285&home=yes&more_nodeId1=156139&contentPK=19438157) If William passes the course, he will graduate in a ceremony at Cranwell in AprilAnd if he fails the course, he will graduate in a ceremony at Cranwell in April.


Doesn't it make you proper pilots fume at the boy wonder wearing your coveted wings. Why not post yours back in revolt.

GPMG
4th Jan 2008, 11:44
Blimey ZH your either using stinky fishing bait there or your the only person capable of creating a Tropical Tempest in a Pussers mug.

Fg Off Max Stout
4th Jan 2008, 11:49
2close,

The RAF Fitness Test will consist of reaching a certain level on the bleep test and doing a specified number of pressups and situps in a minute. You are obviously thinking of the aircrew medical. Different question.

As he will not be ending up as frontline pilot, there may be some scope for flexibility in terms of medical requirements. Do you need to be A1G1Z1 to fly a solo circuit if you definitely will not be progressing any further? I suggest probably not, especially given the level of supervision and contingency planning that will no doubt be put in place.

ZH875,

Doesn't it make you proper pilots fume at the boy wonder wearing your coveted wings.

No, for reasons that I gave in post 126.

rogcal
4th Jan 2008, 12:19
As the JEFTS at Barkston Heath usually carries out the ab initio training for the joint services, why is HRH going straight onto the Grob 115 at Cranwell rather than the Firefly at Barkston?

ImageGear
4th Jan 2008, 12:30
I'm sure a little red plastic pig will look the business surrounded by all those funky new white overalls. At least it was a real man's little red chippy at Benson.

Imagegear

dakkg651
4th Jan 2008, 13:17
I don,t think you can have much red on glass aeroplanes IG because they get too hot and srart melting.

Agree that a taildragger would teach him how to land properly - any Vigilants at Cranners?

Also agree with Max. Good luck to the lad.

RBuzzer
4th Jan 2008, 13:20
Poor old Rich Allison....

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/royals/article649080.ece

madlandrover
4th Jan 2008, 14:02
As the JEFTS at Barkston Heath usually carries out the ab initio training for the joint services, why is HRH going straight onto the Grob 115 at Cranwell rather than the Firefly at Barkston?

Probably because he'll be doing the training under the RAF umbrella, rather than the RN or Army at DEFTS. JEFTS disbanded at Church Fenton in 2003, for better or worse.

brakedwell
4th Jan 2008, 14:18
Doesn't it make you proper pilots fume at the boy wonder wearing your coveted wings. Why not post yours back in revolt.



What a great idea! Mrs B still has a pair of wings in her sewing box.
Unfortunately I am unable to return my ACM uniform complete with RAF wings and toy town medals as it was lost in the dry cleaners. :{ :{ :{

Union Jack
4th Jan 2008, 14:26
For Brakedwell

Plus an excuse for the aformentioned lady to wear a rather "fetching" fancy dress uniform

I believe you must be thinking of The Princess Royal's uniform as Colonel of The Blues and Royals (Royal Horse Guards and 1st Dragoons) rather than her perfectly standard uniform as a Rear Admiral as Chief Commandant for Women in the Royal Navy.

For Davaar

Admiral of the Fleet the Earl Mountbatten of Burma: 1st Sea Lord

And also Chief of the Defence Staff - and he wore submarine "underwater wings" after they were awarded in July 1971, presumably based on his service in two submarines in 1917-18. He was also an Honorary Air Marshal whilst Chief of Combined Operations but, unless someone knows better, I am not aware that he wore any form of flying badge or, indeed, whether he ever wore RAF uniform.

Jack

PS To offset some of the rather sad and off-colour comments about The Earl of Wessex, it may be worth pointing out that he is Honorary Royal Colonel or Colonel-in-Chief of three regiments and Commodore-in-Chief of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service - and a father of two .....

PPS Based on some of the precedents quoted for the award of flying badges to Royals, it seems no more extraordinary to me than captains of civilian fixed or rotary wing aircraft wearing four stripes when their service counterparts captaining similar or identical aircraft are wearing one or two stripes - or even chevrons in the case of helicopters!

mr fish
4th Jan 2008, 14:47
as a few people have remarked, it seems to be a longwinded stunt just to get the gongs. am i the only one who remembers idi amin decked out in all his armour in the 70s,yet anytime charly appears for a function he comes decked out like a f:mad:ing christmas tree!!! where did he get all that scrap iron from????

brakedwell
4th Jan 2008, 15:05
From Mummy of course!

airborne_artist
4th Jan 2008, 15:14
To those who complain about the monarchy, and the heir to the throne getting free flying lessons (and tank/ship driving lessons) when the rest have to pass OASC/AIB/RCB etc (work hard at school btw), I have just two words to say:

President Blair

See, now you realise why the Windsors, who may not be perfect, are a lot better than anything we might otherwise have.

jumpseater
4th Jan 2008, 15:16
So will every cab he takes up be classed as a royal flight then?

Well he's not on the list, maybe it's the trainers he's wearing.
Manual of Air Traffic Services Sct1 Ch8 P1 1.1
Liz
Phil
Chaz
Cammy:ooh:
Randy
Ed
Mrs Ed
The royal formerly known as Mrs Phillips:D

Turn the page
MAts1 Sct1 Ch8 2.1.5
Training flights by any member of the 'firm' planned and carried out VFR or IFR under the control of an ATS surveillance unit will normally be classified as Royal flights. When a member of the royale family intends to carry out flying training at RAF or civvy aerodromes CAS-T if required, is to be established blah blah blah

Perhaps he'll make the list if he changes his footwear:E

Chicken Leg
4th Jan 2008, 15:21
Group Captain Nick Seward said as future head of the armed forces it was important that William understood the "ethos and history" of the RAF.

Not sure that that will take four months!

Is it me or do some people have to moan about anything these days?

Nail, head, hit!
Do you think he will pass the RAF fitness test?

His Granny could pass the RAF Fitness Test! Plus, he's an Army Officer so he probably does two PT sessions per week without it leading to the grounding of every aircraft in the three services!

Seriously though, you all seem to think that he should be treated like any other Officer going through pilot training. Newsflash! He's not like any other Officer and he never will be. You Crabs are getting some good PR out of this exercise and you still find room to moan about it. If he went to the Fisheads for flying training (or God forbid, the Army) you'd moan that the RAF was not being equally recognised by the Royals/Government/JHC.*

Reminds me of the time that a Pongo and a Crab were offered a drink of water. The Pongo was asked if the glass was half empty or half full. 'I don't care' said the Pongo, 'I'm thirsty'. And he drank the water. The Crab was asked the same question and he answered hysterically: 'That's not water, it's poison. You're all trying to kill me so that that you can take my job'. 'I used to have loads of glass's of water and they were all full, now most of them are half empty and those that aren't are ruined'. 'I bet you Pongo's are responsible'.

Romeo Oscar Golf
4th Jan 2008, 15:21
What a bunch of sourgrape tossers some of you are. Happy New Year, welcome to 2008. For once, and probably the only time, I'm in complete agreement with VVVthing. Give the young Royal a break, he'll still be better trained than the average PPL, and do you know what the medical, academic, age and fitness requirements are for the budding private pilot?
The military and particularly the RAF needs all the publicity it can get and Fg Off Wales will provide plenty.;)



Edited 'cos I don't know my Plotoffs from my Fugoffs (thanks brakedwell) and I forgot that Windsor had expanded to Wales!

brakedwell
4th Jan 2008, 15:34
R O G
I think he is now FLYING Officer Wales.

BTW: It may be their train set, but we are paying for it!

mustflywillfly
4th Jan 2008, 16:12
BTW: It may be their train set, but we are paying for it!

:D

I may be a grumbling miserable sod for thinking that this foray into flying for Prince William is total arse dressed up (by the RAF) as serious flying training.

BUT

What a bloody good point the above post makes. Yes it is the Royal Air Force, yes it is their trainset but it is the hardworking public (just about to be hit by a hard recession in 2008) that will be paying for this. No I'm not a Republican I just believe firmly that the chap should do things properly or not at all, maybe spending his acquaint with the RAF in another capacity. Hell we all know that the FTS is hardly the "real" world of the RAF. Oh and another rant, if he MUST fly then why is he going to Linton prior to the Squirrel? Are they predicting a RW rethread already :}

MarkD
4th Jan 2008, 18:39
I remember risking life and limb in a College of Nautical Studies welding booth as a clueless first year AeroEng stude at Glasgow University on the same basis as this - familiarity with the things you're going to require technicians to do as an Eng even if you yourself won't be doing them (and thank god for that!) so that you have some comprehension that (a) it's hard and (b) of what they mean when they tell you what can and can't be accomplished with the techniques available. We were required to make reasonable attempts at the tasks, not perform them as technicians with far greater training not to mention recency would do.

The training referred to in this thread might come in handy to "advise and warn" a Bliar like PM who thinks the Armed Forces are there to say "how high" when he says "jump - without a budget".

Stitchbitch
4th Jan 2008, 19:28
Intructor: Flt Lt Lees eh? From flying the Queen of the skies (Puma, for those not in the know..) to flying the Queens Grandson...nice one :E

blogger
4th Jan 2008, 20:22
What a waste of time and space.

Will he ever fly in battle ..........no.
Will he ever be put at risk.........no.
Will he get the best kit............yes.
Will folks have to suck up to him.....yes.
Will he ever fly a kite carrying an arm full of snags.......no.
Do we have time for him..............no.

Will he crash..........well his dad did many times....... runs in the family then........!

just another brick in the wall

A2QFI
4th Jan 2008, 20:46
Will he ever fly in battle ..........no.
Will he ever be put at risk.........Yes, something with only one engine is risky.
Will he get the best kit............yes but no better than anyone elses.
Will folks have to suck up to him....No, it is voluntary.
Will he ever fly a kite carrying an arm full of snags.......nobody should have to.
Do I have time for him..............Answer for yourself. I do (have time for him).

Boslandew
5th Jan 2008, 08:09
Give the bloke a break. He's eventually got to do a very demanding job - (have you travelled far?, is this your family? X 10,000), reading endless red boxes when he's got a hangover, never being a minute late, all the rest of the demands of Royalty - which he didn't ask for and can't escape. Surely he gets a bit of light relief.
You're beating your head against a brick wall if you try to apply 'normal' rules to Royalty. In this century it is an anomaly and you can find 101 reasons why its absurd. However, by and large, people seem to like it, (even the Aussies are loth to give it up), it seems to work and it sure as hell beats President Blair. If part of Prince Williams responsibility is going to be as head of the Armed Forces, it make sense for him to get some experience of them. No, he's not going to complete a full RAF wings course because he's not going to be an RAF pilot. In the year 2040 though, when the government is planning yet more cuts, it might be nice to have some senior support from someone who speaks the language.
As regards the cost, gimme a break. His entire training will cost less then the MOD spends on buying art and his entire fuel burn will probably be less than that of one Red Arrows display.

Seldomfitforpurpose
5th Jan 2008, 08:35
Classic British jealousy at it best.............some folk in here really do need to get a life :ugh:

JessTheDog
5th Jan 2008, 16:35
What annoys me is not the fact that the two princes have undertaken military careers, or even token military careers, or even token military careers without any prospect of active service (acknowledged that Harry wanted to go to the sandpit).

It is the fact that the two princes are constantly out on the lash at the same time as undertaking their token military careers. Not just a happy hour pint or eight, but Bacchanalian displays of excess that would shame even Manchester United. If they are put into uniform as part of the public face of the monarchy, then they should act the role 24/7 - or at least indulge with some discretion. It isn't that long ago that OCRs were still in force, and I recall tales of JOs not long before me being b0llocked after being seen down town in denim trousers!

I am a loyal subject of HM, but if we want to maintain the institution then the standards need to be maintained....respect is not unconditional after all.

G-CPTN
5th Jan 2008, 17:19
You tell Harry, Jess . . .

Seldomfitforpurpose
5th Jan 2008, 17:39
"It is the fact that the two princes are constantly out on the lash at the same time as undertaking their token military careers"

Sound like perfect Ascoteers to me :ok:

Phil_R
5th Jan 2008, 17:47
which he didn't ask for and can't escape.


Actually, I'm pretty sure he can.

I wouldn't hold it against the guy if he announced an unwillingness to take the throne, told the press they'd get nothing from him ever again, and bought a semi in Wanstead. It would occupy the front page of the Sun for a week. I can understand Harry's being mightily pissed off that he wasn't allowed to deploy to Iraq; but at the end of the day, if they both get killed, someone else will step in. Another week's worth of boring newspapers and the problem goes away.

No, I'm not a monarchist, but I'd have thought half the point of being an English prince was to go thundering into battle on the trusty steed-o-the-moment.

Fg Off Max Stout
5th Jan 2008, 18:23
Jess, what utter rot. William will fit in just fine! Without wishing to give the gutter press too many leads, the RAF membership has never been known for going to bed early with a Horlicks. Members of HM Forces to this day know how to party in a way which your average civvy cannot comprehend and some of the stuff that went on in Lot 22 and The Goose would probably leave Harry feeling like a shrinking violet. As for 'denim trousers' which decade are you referring to? I belive youths have referred to them as jeans since the 1950s.

buoy15
5th Jan 2008, 21:10
I'm sure he will be treated fairly and squarely as any other trainee pilot that is going to be the future King of England:hmm:

Shack37
5th Jan 2008, 21:19
Around about 1973 when FO Wales father served briefly on HMS Fox/Fawn that was the exact brief given to the crew by the captain. "You will treat him as you would treat any other Sub. Lt.............who is going to be your next King"
s37

PeteBee
5th Jan 2008, 22:57
You say that it's not possible in 4 months?

I flew 1st Solo (which is as far as he will probably get on each A/C type) in a conventional glider in 4 months and that was just on 1 day a week and with a maximum number of 15 launches a day (each averaging about 6 minutes). I did it in 47 launches and the only reason it dragged out for 4 months was because of the stormy weather in summer and days when sending me up with an instructor wasn't practical and that I was needed on the ground doing handling.

4 months hard graft every day and passing every test that may be thrown at him and it may be possible. I'm quite sure that the targets set earlier would have been set by the RAF who (I hope) would plan what they could do with him based on length of time

muppetofthenorth
5th Jan 2008, 23:09
Students on the various UAS', if they have the time, are more than able to gain a first solo on a Tutor in less than 2 weeks.
Four months is just being lazy!

For that matter, ATC cdts are able to go on a 10hr flying scholarship from the age of 16 and they too go solo.

Why do we assume that HRH won't be capable of something that 16 year olds can do without problem?

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
6th Jan 2008, 00:08
Unless he's a total retard, which clearly he isn't, of course it's bloody achievable.

It really is quite depressing to see so much peevishness on a military forum.

rudekid
6th Jan 2008, 00:09
Muppet & PeteBee

Congratulations on your achievements...we should probably send more glider pilots and 16 year old air cadets to all RAF aircraft, instead of bothering will all that training stuff we do!:hmm:

First solo doesn't equal the RAF flying badge aka 'wings'. I don't think anyone suggests that HRH won't manage to solo an aircraft in four months.

I suggest you re-read the thread....

Hoots
6th Jan 2008, 01:29
Fair play that he's doing a bit of pilot training. But as he is joining the RAF to experience our life, is he going to get around a bit and see what it's really like, or just do it for flying training purposes.

I would like to think he would come and see what the AT,SH & MPA forces are doing as they are being hardest hit at the moment.

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
6th Jan 2008, 01:34
Send him for a 4 month det to MPA? Now there's a thing. He may just enjoy it.

doubledolphins
6th Jan 2008, 12:39
Just a thought for you chaps who are thinking of sending your wings back. Why not just cut the crown off and send that back, After all you will never be entitled to wear the real one. However one day the future Sub Lt Wales......:ok:


PS, Submariners don't wear "Underwater Wings" they are Dolphins, or a pair of lady's legs if you look again.:=

brakedwell
6th Jan 2008, 12:53
> Just a thought for you chaps who think sending your wings back. Why not just cut the crown off and send that back, After all you will never be entitled to wear the real one. However one day the future Sub Lt Wales...... <


Can't afford to. ROYAL Mail is too expensive ;) ;).

Vortex what...ouch!
6th Jan 2008, 14:40
I hope he reads this and sees what a bunch of green eyed monsters some of you are.

Really you need to get over yourselves. Some of you behave like school girls, and not for the first time. :ouch:

Seldomfitforpurpose
6th Jan 2008, 14:50
With you 100% Vortex..............typically British envy :rolleyes:

HRH is simply doing what is expected of him and if some of the small minded twerps in here can't see that then perhaps, as you suggest they really DO need to get a bit more :=

spheroid
6th Jan 2008, 15:10
It is the fact that the two princes are constantly out on the lash at the same time as undertaking their token military careers

He'll fit into the crabs perfectly then.

airborne_artist
6th Jan 2008, 16:57
If he was doing his flying training with the FAA would he get water wings?

Can he swim? He might need them in the Dunker (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.3249).:E

Seldomfitforpurpose
6th Jan 2008, 16:58
Probably be compelled to "earn" his brown wings with that lot :E

brakedwell
6th Jan 2008, 17:58
When F/O Wales becomes a "fully qualified" RAF pilot where will he find the time to maintain any continuity, and will he also be awarded a frozen ATPL?

brakedwell
6th Jan 2008, 18:08
Aren't Royals exempt from the 1000 hours then?

Contacttower
6th Jan 2008, 21:27
Why on earth would Prince William want to do an ATPL?

Union Jack
7th Jan 2008, 00:28
Doubledolphins

Submariners don't wear "Underwater Wings" they are Dolphins, or a pair of lady's legs if you look again.:=

VMT DD but "Underwater wings" in inverted commas (or "speechmarks", as some young fellows quaintly call them!) is a very old joke dating back to 16 Jul 71, the date RN dolphins were first awarded. RAN dolphins were previously always known as the D of E's view of a certain lady wearing nylons, and hence the RN's more heraldic dolphins quickly became known as the D of E's view of the same lady wearing fishnet stockings.;)

Jack

PS I'm much too polite to comment on the location of the anchor ....

pr00ne
7th Jan 2008, 01:46
So, when is he going to do a stint as a Postman?

GPMG
7th Jan 2008, 08:30
I can't believe the whining going on regarding the Princes partying every night and carrying on with pretty girls.

The only thing that stops 90% of the british forces doing exactly the same is a lack of money. Something I doubt the Princes will have a problem with.

Although if you turn to the next morning unable to do your job then thats what a 'Cap on no Coffee' meeting is for.

brakedwell
7th Jan 2008, 08:35
Wasn't Harry asked to keep a low profile and avoid nightclubs while his men were risking life and limb in warmer climes?

airborne_artist
7th Jan 2008, 15:46
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44338000/jpg/_44338912_williamraf_pa203blong.jpg

Mike Oxmels
7th Jan 2008, 16:04
I think Wills' batman needs to inform HRH of the de rigeur sartorial titfer tilt of at least 30 degrees on the chip packet.

That's the way to do it:
http://www.3squadron.org.au/clark/alclar4.jpg

ZH875
7th Jan 2008, 16:31
Well, that's day one over with....


....Has he got his wings yet?

brakedwell
7th Jan 2008, 16:39
Give him time, today he only completed ground school.

dallas
7th Jan 2008, 17:04
"If successful, he will be awarded his RAF wings and in anticipation of this, a graduation ceremony is planned for April," Gp Cpt Seward said.
I love the feigned doubt...:rolleyes:

Mike Oxmels
7th Jan 2008, 17:31
BBC:"We have adapted the course and we have cut out anything superfluous to his specific needs because we're not teaching him to be an operational pilot - we're teaching him to be a competent pilot," Sqn Ldr Marsh said

One might interpret that as suggesting that operational pilots are not competent pilots! I know that's not what he meant and what he does mean seems quite reasonable BUT according to QRs that does not qualify you to be issued your wings let alone retain them (that I believe is CR or 1 year productive service).

So the question is: are QRs getting a good ignoring in this case or is there another QR that exempts HRHs / HM from the normal regulations, equivalent to Crown Immunity in law? I have no particular objection to Willy having a shot at the RAF and collecting a badge (along with firelighting and knots) but I'd be interested to know how the Airships are justifying it.

As far as see I can see, there is no provision in QRs for the issue and retention of wings as a result of 'custom courses' and PMA are not normally known for their flexibilty, helpfulness and lateral thinking. There have been a great many pilot's chopped more than 4 months into training who by S/L Marsh's logic must also be 'competent pilots' and by Willy's precedent entitled to wings!

Chicken Leg
7th Jan 2008, 18:00
There have been a great many pilot's chopped more than 4 months into training who by S/L Marsh's logic must also be 'competent pilots'

Because they were required to be more than competant pilots, HRH is not. :ugh:

Why can't you people get it into your numb skulls that he can't be compared to a normal trainee because..............yep, you've guessed it, he's not a normal trainee and never can be, never will be, never should be.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh::ugh:

dave_perry
7th Jan 2008, 18:05
Well said!

Seldomfitforpurpose
7th Jan 2008, 18:09
Chicken

Well said chap but I think you are going to have re type that last message but this time in capitals and a much bigger font for the hard of reading..............:rolleyes:

brakedwell
7th Jan 2008, 18:12
>>Why can't you people get it into your numb skulls that he can't be compared to a normal trainee because..............yep, you've guessed it, he's not a normal trainee and never can be, never will be, never should be <<


So why should he be awarded RAF Wings? :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

It might be more appropriate if Grandma awarded him a special Royal set of wings.

Mike Oxmels
7th Jan 2008, 18:27
SFFP & Chickenleg, perhaps 'the hard of reading' applies to you.

You will see that I said:
I have no particular objection to Willy having a shot at the RAF and collecting a badge (along with firelighting and knots) but I'd be interested to know how the Airships are justifying it.

The point and question was:
are QRs getting a good ignoring in this case or is there another QR that exempts HRHs / HM from the normal regulations, equivalent to Crown Immunity in law?

Seldomfitforpurpose
7th Jan 2008, 18:54
If you are unable to grasp the utter simplicity of Chicken's post then I guess it matter's not how big he types it really.........................

Mike Oxmels
7th Jan 2008, 19:18
So I take it that you're saying QRs are being disregarded in this case whereas they are applied with utter rigidity to all other officers and airmen.

I actually think it good for the RAF that he should have a go and get the wings. I just wondered if there was official provision for this situation under Air Force Law or do Binnsworth pick and choose which QRs to observe. I think I can guess the answer to that one.

MostlyHarmless
7th Jan 2008, 20:08
The point at which you get your wings has moved back and forwards so many times in the last couple of decades that it really is a trivial point.

Personally, I wish him the best of luck and hope he gets a feel for what the RAF is about - *that's* what he's doing it for, you :mad:s !

Edit: On review, that could be seen as a little OTT - not directed directly at Mike or any recent postees in particlyar :)

Chicken Leg
7th Jan 2008, 20:09
It's very easy to selectively quote QR's as and when it suits. By way of an example, I spent less than five minutes finding this:

5.189. Guidance on the responsibilities of commanding officers for the physical fitness of the officers and soldiers
under their command is contained in Individual Training Directives (Army) (Army Code No 71209), Part 1, Section 2 -
Physical Fitness Training. It is to be noted that swimming training is compulsory for all officers and soldiers of the
regular army. The rules and regulations covering those games, sports and recreational activities which are recognised in
the army are laid down in `Games and Sports in the Army'. Adventurous training is to be encouraged. Guidance is given
in Army General and Administrative Instructions, Volume 1, Chapter 11.

I have not had swimming trg since I left trg as 17 year old over 20 years ago!

A bit random maybe, but my point is, that in less than five minutes I was able to Google, scan read and copy a paragraph from QR's that is clearly not being implemented and yet no outcry on PPRune.

Quoting QR's for something like HRH's trg strikes me as trying to find something to complain about when there really is nothing to complain about. I mean, has he taken somebody else's place? Will the SOTR for 2008 be reduced by one to allow his trg to take place. I think not. Get over yourselves, you're making yourselves out to be ignorant idiots.

JessTheDog
7th Jan 2008, 20:46
So the question is: are QRs getting a good ignoring in this case or is there another QR that exempts HRHs / HM from the normal regulations, equivalent to Crown Immunity in law? I have no particular objection to Willy having a shot at the RAF and collecting a badge (along with firelighting and knots) but I'd be interested to know how the Airships are justifying it.

As another example, there is no mechanism for a direct transfer from the Army to the RAF, or vice versa, or from either of these to or from the Navy. You need to resign and join the new Service. I am surprised he didn't go across on temporary duty or on exchange as a Lt/Capt although it is good for each service if they are getting a shot of the heir for a little while!

I don't have any particular axe to grind and think it is a good thing in general that the princes are in uniform. However, they are not Lt/Fg Off Bloggs, never will be, and will not generate productive service, even though Harry is champing at the bit to go to Iraq or Afghanistan (and he should be allowed to go as the "spare" and would undoubtedly do a good job - presumably William knows not to even bother asking) so there shouldn't be any pretence that they are regular officers - perhaps it could be thought of as a military career consisting of ceremonial duties for its entirety. This is no bad thing, it demonstrates support for the Armed Forces and is in the family tradition.

Likewise, lead by example and all that.....he isn't Lt/Fg Off Bloggs and has an additional public role to play, perhaps not much fun but that's the way it is....I hope he isn't off down Ritzy's every night (or whatever it is called now!) at least to keep the paps away from everyone else! I am sure it would be a hardship to avoid the delights of Lincoln.....

rudekid
7th Jan 2008, 20:49
If we wanted some extra PR, why don't we give some wings to that bloke who played Anakin (?) Skywalker as well whilst we're about it. He's got family in the RAF and he's been flying in a GR4 and he comes across well on the TV....

I repeat what I've already said, but;

I'm all for him coming to fly with us to be able to see what we do. I think it's difficult to justify time on front-line types but he won't be getting many hours apparently. But hey, we waste enough money on things like the Red Arrows for us to be able to flex him some time in the trg aircraft, after all he will be our Head of State.

However, if he does the same course as everyone else he should be eligible for the award of wings. If not, he shouldn't. Hereford wouldn't award him his badge based on an experience visit. Why should we?

Tiger_mate
7th Jan 2008, 20:57
In a few years time, he will be at the cenotaph in order to lay a wreath in honour of our dead. Between now and then, many more will lay down their lives in the defence of….well if not our country I suppose it will be somebody’s.

Each of you will watch, and note what the colour of the day is, be it Army, Navy or RAF and observe the wings that adorn his chest.

Each of you will have your own private views as to the validity or otherwise of the entitlement for them to be there. He will then be, as he is now, and always has been, an ambassador. Unlike most MP’s, he will have seen it, even if he has not ‘been there and done it’.

I am sure that given a choice, he himself would have much rather enjoyed a flying tour as his father and uncle did, but for whatever reason, it is not meant to be. So be it, and I sincerely hope that he enjoys every second of it. He has no visions of grandeur, for if he did, he would most probably get chopped at Valley.

I once heard a QFI state that as his uncle was (then) a Sea King Captain, it proved that you can take anybody off the street, and given time and money turn them into a helicopter Captain. Andrew does not have flying in his blood, I know for he himself told me so, along with “I do not miss it an iota”.

If William does have flying in his blood, and he will know very soon, then we all should respect that. The fastrack selection, QR’s reference keeping wings, and entering flying training with poor eyesight are all valid points regarding any normal aircrew student. He is far from a normal aircrew student, and some good may well come of him taking this opportunity, we are on a win – win.

MarkD
7th Jan 2008, 21:07
I think the worst things about the affair of the junior Wales' in the military are:

1. That the decision (not) to deploy Wales minor was not made by Buckingham Palace or the MoD but by Fleet Street. At least Thatcher knew that journalists and pollsters don't lead, leaders do.

2. The repeated assumptions in this thread and elsewhere that the Wales scamps are the first members of the British royal family to drink to excess and behave boorishly and thus the certain demise of the monarchy. When they start chopping their wives heads' off and having archbishops (or phoney pharoahs) assassinated I'll take notice.

4fitter
7th Jan 2008, 21:07
Well said Tiger. And you are correct that his Uncle was not a natural. Hope that Wills is more civil to the groundcrew - I'm sure he will !

muppetofthenorth
7th Jan 2008, 21:32
why don't we give some wings to that bloke who played Anakin (?) Skywalker as well whilst we're about it. He's got family in the RAF and he's been flying in a GR4 and he comes across well on the TV

Pedant Mode
Ewan McGregor played ObiWan Kenobi and it's his brother who is/was a GR4 pilot at Lossiemouth.
/Pedant Mode

Fg Off Max Stout
7th Jan 2008, 21:56
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2008/01/07/nprince600.jpg

What is Wills wearing there? It looks a bit like LCJ/LSJ mesh but with arms and pen pockets? Don't think I've ever seen one of those before. Is it some Tuc/FJ specific kit that us RW mates don't use?

MAD Boom
7th Jan 2008, 22:27
We give Fighter Controllers brevets, and they don't deserve them, so why not dish out a set of wings to HRH? No harm done. :)

Flugplatz
7th Jan 2008, 22:57
Japes aplenty!
I used to work in an Army Divisional HQ and dealt exclusively with discipline and 'Redress of Complaint' ('whining git' as we used to call it) issues. Should anyone (including William) question and dispute their own situation vis-a-vis pilot training issues, then they have the right enshrined in QRs (The Army Act 1955, an Act of Parliament) to submit a Redress and it must be considered at ever increasing levels by the chain of command (if not resolved at a lower level). In fact, only the complainant can withdraw the redress, and if he doesn't it just continues up to the Defence Council and ultimately - the Queen! ha, ha!!

So, is anyone going to Redress that one?? and tell the Queen that her Grandson;) shouldn't get his wings? (signing out an actual aircraft is a whole different issue though). So if Wills doesn't feel like he has had a fair shake, don't worry, he can ask his Grandma to sort out the nasty men!
PS. These are Army Regs, not RAF; but wait.. he is in the Army too! ha, ha!
Face it guys, it is going to happen and it is all there in black and white, voted in by Parliament. The Monarchy have been around for a while and they know a thing or two...

FLUG

Shiney Pencil
8th Jan 2008, 07:57
I think that you will find that the Queen is in fact Williams Grandmother not his mother.

mystic_meg
8th Jan 2008, 08:09
So if Wills doesn't feel like he has had a fair shake, don't worry, he can ask his Mum to sort out the nasty men!

He'll need a spade, and possibly the services of Doris Stokes too...:E

Flugplatz
8th Jan 2008, 08:13
You are right Drat it! my mistake. How does this edit thing work?

FLUG

teeteringhead
8th Jan 2008, 08:45
One is not and never has been a chipbag wearer (something to do with the shape of one's swede), but is not HRH's too big for him??

It seems to be covering the top of his right ear, and is well clear of the cranium on the left - and of course precludes the 30 degree slant .....

Perhaps he'll get a proper SH beret when he gets to Strawbs (sorry BEags) ;)

ZH875
8th Jan 2008, 08:49
Now if only the RAF had kept their Batting staff, HRH would be able to wear his chip bag with style.



Maybe he will keep it for Harry to throw up in when they next go on the lash.:\

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
8th Jan 2008, 08:57
Flugplatz You make some very good and valid points there; but you are wasting your effort. Those with the "please Sir, it's not fair" mind set are stuck with it and nothing on this planet will change it.

Perhaps we would be better occupied debating the wisdom of the way this is being done. He's already elected to be a brown job and he was entitled to that choice. Would it have been better if his aviation qualification had been pursued through the Army system? Army service at flying school is still service. That would not then involve the abbreviated training so many of you object to and the qualification and badge would carry something near the true value expected. Would the Navy or Air Force then be able to drip that his brevet doesn't qualify him for theirs?

To a large extent, he has a choice in how this phase of his preparation for the Throne is run. If he has said, outright, that he doesn't want to be trained to Army "wings" standard, then that's another matter. In the meantime, if the current route has been deemed the way to go, let's wish the future big fellah luck and all hope that it adds to his military and "air" awareness. If his Gran is happy for her Air Force to award even a honorary pilot's brevet to him, who are we to question her (including the many fervent republicans here)? As the the RWF were proud to change their cap badge simply because Queen Victoria made a spelling mistake, can't we do this with some modicum of good grace?

GPMG
8th Jan 2008, 09:33
GBZ, I think that he is doing a taster menu of all three services. With a PR coup like this I doubt that the cheeses will train him as a Radar op or a Rock ape, so he'll train as what the RAF is best known for and where it will get the best photo opportunities.

Also you can imagine what Prince william would say if he was told that he would spend 6 mths as a dog walker during his acquaint with the RAF.

I don't think it is all about him getting wings (from his point of view), I think it is about him doing the most interesting job in each service.

Fg Off Max Stout
8th Jan 2008, 10:29
If one more media article uses the phrase 'loop-the-loop' or 'jumpsuit', there's going to be a shoot out in Fleet Street!

Edited to add 'acrobatics'.

Ivan Rogov
8th Jan 2008, 10:29
How did he do at OASC? Not a dig but just interested if he was graded or not.
TBH I can't see the problem as long as they let him see the forces properly and don't keep him in a bubble, have they spent much on Cranwell's decor recently? It might be one of the few times in his life when he can just relax and be another number. We have to accept that most of us don't make the rules and they can be changed at any time. As easy as we may think his role in the UK may be, I wouldn't want it!
If anyone finds the whole episode too much they could always move to Australia! :}

snapper41
8th Jan 2008, 12:32
According to the Daily Wail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=506566&in_page_id=1770

it's not a chipbag; it's the 'distinctive navy blue forage cap'. NAVY BLUE???????????

Chicken Leg
8th Jan 2008, 14:12
Now if only the RAF had kept their Batting staff, HRH would be able to wear his chip bag with style.

Impossible. No matter how you wear it, it looks f*****g stupid!

Happy for him to do the most interesting job, just don't believe it satisfies QR (RAF) J727 Para 1

Didn't we agree earlier that selective quoting of QR's is scraping the barrel for something to drip about. I wonder how many of HM's Regulations get a good ignoring from you every single day of your sad little life! Turnout, the way you address those senior to you, fitness, consumption of alcohol etc etc. They're all regulations from the good book, but do you abide by them day in day out? :ugh:

Maple 01
8th Jan 2008, 15:14
QRs state that the 'chip bag' hat MUST be battered, oil stained and worn at least 30 degrees with a fag-end behind the left ear of lower ranks and the gentle whiff of Gentleman's pomade hairdressing for the aviating gentlefolk - rules is rules

A2QFI
8th Jan 2008, 17:20
JR. You seem to have had a good time. What are you pissed off about?

Seldomfitforpurpose
8th Jan 2008, 17:30
"Chicken Leg, yes I do!".............someone sounds like a barrel of fun :rolleyes:

olderbloke
8th Jan 2008, 19:14
It never ceases to amaze me how many cynical people are out there! In an ideal world and as the future Head of State, it would be perfect for the military if Prince William could serve 'effectively' with all 3 services. That clearly cannot happen, and it has been decided that his experience of the RAF will consist of the most basic of flying training. So be it, surely its better than nothing - let's take the opportunity to show HRH what a professional bunch of lads/lasses we are (IMHO), and not show, despite all of our obvious frustrations with our lot, the negative disaffected attitude that is only too frequently apparent on this forum.

ZH875
8th Jan 2008, 20:35
it would be perfect for the military if Prince William could serve 'effectively' with all 3 services.

It would be perfect for the military if the royals and other non suitable people were kept away from the military.

What is the point of partial training?

What support for the RAF do you actually think you will get from HRH when he becomes King? - now think again.

What is the point of training people to command a troop if they cannot actually go with the troop?

Why is it necessary to only carry out the 'fun' part of the forces, to gain insight into the 'ethos' of that service?

To give the coveted RAF Wings away, to someone who has the ability to 'loop-the-loop' whilst wearing a 'jump suit' in a tupperware trainer makes a mockery of those people who actually earn them.

Perhaps he would like to spend a week being a liney, on a cold wet flight line? - no, I thought not, not much fun there.

Every body I know wanted to go to Iraq and fight, so Harry's claim is about as much use as his 'Full Time' Army job.

Keep the Royal scroungers doing the job they are PAID to do and leave the military for the professionals.

StopStart
8th Jan 2008, 21:17
Is this thread seriously still running?? Blimey. Great to see some top level blithering going on here!

People people people.......

Dribble about "coveted" wings, QRs, earning the right blah blah..... Purlease. Try and lever yourselves out from up your own sphincters...

I worked fairly hard to get mine all those years ago, including a swift round of chopping and holding here and there and I really would be hard pushed to give less of a toss about what training Billy The Fish does to get a set of em pinned on his chest. If you can't see it for the "symbolic" gesture it is then I pity you.

JR - I'm assuming that:

Chicken Leg, yes I do! I also earnt the right to do so by working hard at school, university, the AFCO, OASC, IOT, and SEVERAL YEARS OF FLYING TRAINING.

is a joke? No, seriously, you're avin a giraffe aren't you.....?

:ugh:

Seldomfitforpurpose
8th Jan 2008, 21:36
Sadly I dont think he is Stopper's :(

StopStart
9th Jan 2008, 12:13
No, perhaps he was having a laugh as it seems to have been deleted.... :hmm:

brakedwell
9th Jan 2008, 15:14
A reminder of what the young man is going through.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3148026876759895856

(Apologies if you have seen this before)

sitigeltfel
9th Jan 2008, 15:38
A reminder of what the young man is going through.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3148026876759895856

(Apologies if you have seen this before)

Stirring stuff, whatever happened to young Simpson? Surely not an actor:eek:

MajorMadMax
17th Jan 2008, 02:18
A couple of YouTube videos on the subject...

Vid 1 (http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=_p-_jiezeL8&sdig=1) Vid 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8nCbvmKpTE&NR=1)

Cheers! M2

Al R
17th Jan 2008, 06:24
I caught someone called Mark Robson (ex RAF pilot) on Breakfast (BBC) talking about it and saying that more might be on t'telly at 0815.

BEagle
17th Jan 2008, 06:37
Also a successful author.

From his website:

"Just received a call from the BBC Studios in London. It seems they need an ex-RAF pilot/instructor to comment on Prince William’s flying training on the Breakfast TV Show tomorrow morning and my name cropped up. I’ve no idea where they got my name from, but it’s a chance to increase my profile, so I said ‘Yes’ without really thinking about it.

Am now somewhat nervous about potentially making a complete idiot of myself on national TV in front of literally millions of viewers. The things I do!!"

Think you did OK actually, me old.

Al R
17th Jan 2008, 06:57
I thought so too. Nicely composed, got his message across and he presented just right.

They obviously couldn't get anyone on with experience of being shot down. :hmm:

BEagle
17th Jan 2008, 08:16
HRH The Prince William obviously enjoyed his first solo yesterday - very well done!!

A very pleasant chap he is too, judging by the BBC's live interview just now.

Oh - and nice try, VT Aerospace. Such a shame your advertising board was out of focus....:p

Chicken Leg
17th Jan 2008, 09:07
They obviously couldn't get anyone on with experience of being shot down.

Or experience of shooting themselves down! :hmm:

brakedwell
17th Jan 2008, 09:16
They obviously couldn't get anyone on with experience of being shot down.


But he only went solo went solo in a seat. :E:E

Shutup_and_drive
17th Jan 2008, 09:26
For Max Stout...

the LSJ he's wearing is a Tornado-style LSJ. They're fitted with auto-retracting arm restraints, hence the pervert-style nylon sleeves, etc. :ok:

Wader2
17th Jan 2008, 09:57
according to QRs that does not qualify you to be issued your wings let alone retain them (that I believe is CR or 1 year productive service).

Don't see a problem here.

He already has more than 1 yrs productive service and will probably complete at least another after wings. That this is not in the RAF in not a problem as it is Service that counts not in each Service.

The bit about CR amd maintaining CR for at least 6 months is true. Should a pilot fail to attain or maintain CR then he would lose his wings. BUT if he does not start work towards CR then the clock does not start :)

Wader2
17th Jan 2008, 10:04
QRs state that the 'chip bag' hat MUST be battered, oil stained and worn at least 30 degrees with a fag-end behind the left ear of lower ranks and the gentle whiff of Gentleman's pomade hairdressing for the aviating gentlefolk - rules is rules

And left in the dust at Akrotiri, driven over by a 56 mate on a motorbike, then returned to grateful owner.

TMJ
17th Jan 2008, 10:38
And left in the dust at Akrotiri, driven over by a 56 mate on a motorbike, then returned to grateful owner.


I understand Shifty Fix is merging with 43... anyone know any details?