First S-76 C++ in Australia?

[leading edge]

Heard a rumour that an S76C++ might soon be "winging" its way to Australia to commence a contract in the North West. If so it will be the first of type in country and will make a change from all the other 26+ year old modified A models currently working here.

Great to see some new equipment coming into the marketplace at last.

Anyone know who the operator is?

[Capt SFB]

Hmmm,

A little birdie indicated to me that it might have something to do with a company which allegedly missed out on a potential contract in Bass Strait which may or may not have specified Super Pumas (or maybe B47j's). But then again this is a rumour forum...........

SFB (Capt. non specific)

[blade root]

"Anyone know who the operator is?"

I think a few people will be surprised, and a few with egg on their collective faces.....

[CDME]

Saw Yoni Gil from Jayrow having some up close and personal chats with the Sikorsky guys at HeliTech, maybe its for them :cool:

[maxeemum]

KTA or bust. Still need drivers

:)

[High Nr]

Heard this is the first of three new airframes that they are bringing into Oz.

Good on them as well.

[Loose_Cyclic]

It's a GoM operator who's supplying the SK76 C++

[High Nr]

Yes confirmed now.....its Jayrow Helicopters
That should give em a fleet of about six 76's now.
My contact also boast that their pay and conditions are the best in the country.
Wonder if there is room for an old sunburnt fart on the C!!

[Hippolite]

High Nr

Jayrow current fleet of S76s is

JYA and JYC both A++ models and owned not leased

JRD A model, also owned not leased.

The A models which were from Helicopter Resources were returned some time ago.

If the C++ is coming from a GOM operator as Loose Cyclic says. It won't be Bristow / Airlog since they wouldn't help Jayrow. Its not PHI, they are looking for more C++s and have none spare. By deduction, in my opinion it could only be ERA since no other GOM operators have the C++.

[Loose_Cyclic]

It is Jayrow Helicopters, but the aircraft and crew are coming from the GoM.

[AusWhirlyBusDriver]

Heard that the first machine will arrive in country next Friday to begin transition to the Oz register. The US crews will only be flying it until she hets onto the OZ register & the Oz crews are qual'd.
Good news for Jayrow & the industry I think. New aircraft are well overdue here. Only a matter of time until one of the old battle axes gives in (hopefully without putting any lives at risk).
The market is definately big enough for a new operator. I say "good luck to them!":ok:

[maxeemum]

Good for Jayrow...............

The market is certainly large enough for 3 or more oil & gas players. A C++ in KTA will certainly turn a few heads. As for the crews comming from the GOM time will tell. OS folks need work visa's and all sorts of admin prior to employment (same rules in most countries). Can't see a shortage of guys wanting to partake in some C++ action though hence shouldn't be a problem.

If the rumour is true well done to Jayrow they are certainly getting amongst it.

Go for it............

Max


:ok:

[High Nr]

I reckon they have three A++'s, one A and now one C++.

So I can't count. :confused:

[Jayrow Pilot]

High NR

I don't think we have the third A++ quite yet but its coming soon I understand. Right now Hippo is accurate but with the 3rd A++ there will be 5 S76s in the fleet.

[maxeemum]

stay tuned!

[VH-XXX]

If it's Jayrow and oilfields related you'll find that the contract specifies that the aircraft used must be less than a certain number of years in age. I heard that those conditions were originally in the current contract, however for some reason they managed to get away with the old bangers they are using. Seems a current maintenance release simply isn't good enough!

[Blackhawk9]

Good to see the various operators are getting new machines at last Jayrow with the 76C++'s, CHC with the S-92 and hopefully Bristows may bring in some EC225's, for to long we have been getting the worn out heaps of s..t from Europe evan a s..t hole like Nigeria has lots of new machines. I think of all the offshore machines in Oz the S-92 with CHC and the C++'s with Jayrow are the only machines under 10,000 hrs/10 yrs in Oz (not sure if the Esso S-76C's are outside the 10,000/10 yet).

[Hippolite]

One operator is importing AS332Ls (3) from the UK, probably ex Shetland Islands. Two are heading up north while one will stay in Victoria for a contract based in Essendon.

UK CAA G-INFO database shows that AS332L S/N 2023 originally registered as G-BJXC (during its flight tests and for delivery) on 31/3/82 then as G-TIGB has been transferred to Australia. It must have 40000 hours by now.

Blackhawk 9 is right, Australia is the dumpster for all the old aircraft. The average age of the Super Pumas in Australia is around 24 years and its 25 for the 76 fleet. CHC and Jayrow will have the newest aircraft in their fleets with the 92 and the C++.

VH-XXX while you are quite right about the age and hours limitations in some, not all, offshore contracts. Recently though, capacity has been so tight that these conditions have been waived until more aircraft become available.

[gulliBell]

Very interesting that a C++ will make its way onto the VH register before a C+ ever did (or should say didn't). Crewing shouldn't be a problem, there are C+ drivers around and the transition from a C+ to a C++ wouldn't be as much as going from an A to a C, or a C to a C+. A C+ driver could almost jump in a ++, fly a few traffic patterns and you're right to go. No doubt the wheels go up and down the same, and the airframe improvements are inconsequential at the driver level. Obviously you'd want to look more closely at the C+/++ engine control differences. I'm guessing they've done away with the single channel/DDR on the C+ and gone for a proper dual channel FADEC on the ++. Not having seen a ++ yet or otherwise read much about it I can't be sure, just an educated guess.

I'd be interested in how the C++ performance numbers measure up against say, a B412EP at 40degC. From memory the C+ starts to die a bit around the 32degC mark. If the C++ can make some good Cat-A numbers hotter than that then it should be a good performer.

Let's hope they don't have to rip out the aircon to make the numbers.

[AusWhirlyBusDriver]

I'd be interested in how the C++ performance numbers measure up against say, a B412EP at 40degC. From memory the C+ starts to die a bit around the 32degC mark. If the C++ can make some good Cat-A numbers hotter than that then it should be a good performer.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (hey, I know they replies will be thick & fast), but is this not the issue with all S-76's bar maybe the B with PT6's?
I mean, load any machine up and make it hot enough & performance will suffer, but I thought most 76's ran into power drama's above 30 degress (not to mention taking the wind away)?
Jeeze, I hope the C++ is different. Would be a welcome change. Gotta get something that handles the hot NW Shelf, kinda looks to me like there might be alittle bit of work there for a while?:hmm:
Had heard rumours about a AW139 being bought in net year, but I'll beleive that when I see it.
As far as the EC225. Chances look pretty good for an appearence next year. Maybe Broome me thinks?

[maxeemum]

A++ 1S1 eng, C+ 1S1 eng, C++ 2S2 engs can other pruners comment on the difference in perf wrt the 1S1 eng vs 2S2 engs and will that fit the bill in a place like Karatha ie 35-45 deg c (And yes we all agree that any model after the A model with Allison engs is going to be an improvement)

A++ MAUW 10,800 lbs, C++ MAUW 11,700 lbs will any gain in eng efficiency from the 1S1 to the 2S2 engs be lost due the higher MAUW?? (assuming the machine is operated at or close to the MAUW)

Anyone?

Max

:)

[Red Wine]

The C+ has 2S1 engines.

[gulliBell]

Max, just to clarify. A++ and C+ have very different engines, the C+ has a 2S1. The C/C+/C++ is a heavier airframe than A++ so you need to talk in terms of available payload rather than MAUW when comparing your numbers.
You might be surprised when comparing performance between an A/AllisonC30S and a C/Arriel1S1 under Karratha conditions - I stand to be corrected but I wouldn't be surprised if the A model did slightly better than a C in hot conditions. Obviously a C+ will do better, and C++ better still. I have more recent form on a C+ and from memory we could take 12 pax up to about 32 degC. After that temp you start weight limiting to make good with that crazy Cat-A elevated heliport departure profile. Being at MAUW in a 50 ft hover with no vertical performance to make CDP is no place to be if a donk quits at that point in time. If it does quit you'll need every ounce of 30sec OEI and probably a new undercarriage after arriving at the bottom.

[maxeemum]

Thanks guys. I was under the impression that Esso have the C+ with 1S1 engs which is why I asked the questions.

Many thanks.

Max

:)

[gulliBell]

Esso have the C's with 1S1's. There are no C+'s in Australia as far as I know.

[David Stepanek]

S-76A+ 1S 10,500 or 10,800 depending on CSN kit
S-76A++ 1S1 same weight as above
S-76B PT6-36 11,700 about 102 built (Bs, Cs and C++ built on same production line until about 1999)
S-76C 1S1 11,700 about 40 built
S-76C+ 2S1 11,700, big delta is now single channel FADEC
S-76C++ 2S2 11,700 barrier filter dual channel FADEC
Zfw on a offshore C++ is about 7650, burns about 670lbs per hour slightly more than a C+. Cat A max gross right at ISA +20.

Here is the delta between C+ and C++, higher ratings are 2S2

OEI ratings:
30-second 1,0324.8%985
2-minute 9375.5%888
Continuous 8974.8%856

Dual engine ratings:
Takeoff9226.6%865
Continuous8335.0%793

[maxeemum]

Dave Step,

Cheers mate, that was the info I was after.

Max

:ok:

[Brian Abraham]

The A definately did better in the heat than a C, but don't ask me for the cross over point as it's been too long ago. Either way neither will lift much. Some days inclined to think a 206 would have done better. :p

[David Stepanek]

Your welcome Max. Hope ya all (Southern for everyone) enjoy the C++.

[Jayrow Pilot]

The C++ will arrive in Melbourne Tullamarine on Saturday, then to Tooradin for a few days configuration work. After that, it will be going to YPKA.

[gulliBell]

Needless to say Tooradin to Karratha is a long cross-country haul. I wonder, if it is being ferried by an American crew, whether they know there aren't too many VOR's on that route. When I was flying in the States the yanks had a preoccupation with tracking via VOR's on cross country flights, they'd almost be lost without them!

Edit: the nav is easy if you either keep the blue stuff on the left, and the brown/green stuff on the right all the way. Or vice versa. Either way you'll ultimately get to where you're going!!

[gulliBell]

Following on from james.russell, would it be d.r. doing the ferry?? If so, hope he does a bit of a dog-leg and we see him in Perth on the way through. I wouldn't mind going for a bit of a whiz ...er...I mean test flight...in the C++ at Jandakot.

[trapezoid]

For the 76 register,

Esso has 6 x C models, fitted with IIDS (very unusual as the IIDS generally took hold with the C+). EXK at about 11,000 hrs, EXZ, EXW at about 8000 hrs, all identical and in very god nick although they are worked hard.

[gulliBell]

Tapezoid, since when did Sikorsky ever build 2 identical S76's? I've flown about 20 of them and never seen 2 wired or fitted exactly the same.

[trapezoid]

OK, the letters painted on the nose and tail are different, ya got me.

T

[maxeemum]

Santa might need one of the elves to bring you a panadol before you have a little ly down.

:{

[David Stepanek]

Kind of off subject but here but to expand on Trapezoid's remark on IIDS .

Sikorsky made an attempt to modernize and standardize cockpits in the early 90s with the Rogerson and Kratos IIDS. This system proved to have very poor reliability with a very low mean time between removal rates. Remember this is the early 90s and computers were very old by today’s standard and liquid crystal displays were in infants. The major issue with the IIDS was heat and components that could not stand up to the processes, as the processing of the data were performed in each display. Today central data processing takes place and the displays are simply computer screens more or less.

So after spending a lot of money to fix the problems that technology at the time could not fix the early IIDS were abandon and a new solution sought out. Both C’s and B’s were built with IIDS. I think about 20-25 helicopters, most ended up in AsiaPac. Sikorsky switched back to round dials for a period whilst looking for a new supplier of glass.

Fwd 1996-97 Sikorsky built the first Parker Gull IIDS in a B model I can’t remember the serial number but somewhere around 460 something went to a VIP operator in Northeast US. The first C+ went to a New York VIP operator it is was serial number 473 I believe. From then on less one C+ for Exxon in GOM all had IIDS.


guilliBell:
Amen on the standard cockpit, but much of the differences in the aircraft are a function of the market demands. So around 2000 Sikorsky went to a standard and all machines are built to the same baseline, which by the way is a full IFR certified cockpit. Of course the baseline changes over the years as new devices come out and technology surpasses what we once thought was really cool.
So if you fly a new C+ or ++ you’ll have the luxury of a factory identical aircraft unless it was modified elsewhere.

[Sputnik57]

Putting the Smoke and Mirrors aside, should we really be applauding the arrival of an already obsolete airframe?

When a credible operator recently introduced the S92, it was placed on the Australian Register, Crewed with Aussie Pilots and a true first for Australia.:D

In the Tooradin operator scenario it is N registered, Yank crewed and hardly worth applauding.

In relation to the continued trollip about this operators pay scales you really must be kidding! Only fixed based in the NW shelf pay well and this is greatly improved by the company renting houses already owned by the Pilot or Engineering staff. A little creative with 180K figure I think.

Bristows are soon to crack the 100k barrier with live in SFO's in Karratha or Broome, with zone allowance, executive housing, power and weekends off.

As for the highest paid Captains you just cannot go past ESSO.

So let's just get this all back into perspective, anyway who is the CEO of the Tooradin operator. Can anybody confirm a management change?

Bring it On.:ok:

[Hippolite]

Sputnik

I believe that the Tooradin Operator has a change of management at the top and that they have a new GM.

I personally would differ that the C++ is an obsolete airframe, it is still in production, is well equipped and earns good revenue for operators. It is no more obsolete than a 225 for example.

I think it is worth applauding since to bring in aircraft which are new compared with 25 year old existing Puma and 76 fleets has to be an overall improvement for the industry. I am sure it will soon be put onto the VH register and Australian crews will be trained on the differences between it and the A++ so that foreign crews will not be required in the long term.

Anything which lowers the age of the offshore fleet has to be a positive whatever aircraft type it may be.

[Fareastdriver]

Maybe I’m old fashioned. Most of the people I know think I am. I open doors for sheilas and stand back whilst they order their next wannagetshagged round. Glass cockpits are fine, I’ve flown a few but for the offshore industry is it necessary? It’s all very nice have an effectively computer game presentation in front of you but with a MDH of around 200ft what difference does that make. Offshore, where it counts, you are in the same ball game as round dials, steam driven NDBs and radar. Performance it what counts, not the gubbins inside. Performance from the engines that will ensure that you will be able to control the situation if any emergency like engine failure at any time on the take off and landing offshore. Performance which pulls you out of the crap if you have a bad day. THAT IS SAFETY. Whatever way you look at the S76, no matter what ++++++++ it is, it cannot manage that.

[Aussie Mate]

You sound a little biased, which is fine.

However to suggest that power and power alone is what will "make my day", is wrong and factually wrong.

What are the “killers” in the Oil and Gas Industry?

Your suggestion that more power, or in other words, some type of Performance Class 1 with Category A is a misconception in Offshore Operations.

Neither will work, in fact would not ever be accepted after the necessary Safety Case has been applied.

So the point your making is now a little less convincing.

Little hassles such as:

• Mid Air Collisions
• CFIT
• Contact with Fixed Obstructions

all cause more accidents and kill more people than some power related excursion.

Particularly if you the pilot, don’t load the aircraft above OEI limits

What a revelation.

[drop lead]

JP, you quote
"The C++ will arrive in Melbourne Tullamarine on Saturday, then to Tooradin for a few days configuration work. After that, it will be going to YPKA"
Has the aircraft arrived?
The boys are going to be busy with a C of A to get it ready for a trip to YPKA in a "few days", or is it going to operated on the "N" register?

[gulliBell]

I heard a rumor that it will be on the N register and flown by an American crew for the time being, with the intention of putting it through the process to get it on the VH register and flown by Australian crews.

What I'm unsure about is whether an Australian crew, without FAA licenses, can do training in an N-registered aircraft in Australian airspace. Perhaps they will need FAA student pilot licenses? I'm also not sure whether those coming here to fly it with FAA licenses, need those licenses validated by CASA before carrying passengers for hire, or even just for ferrying it.

Being completely out of touch as I am with the rules in this regard, perhaps someone far more enlightened can elaborate.

[Jayrow Pilot]

Drop Lead

The aircraft is in Melbourne.

Being just a line pilot, I am not included on the discussions on how it will be operated in the short term although I would imagine that it will be on the N Register. There are some Australian and US licensed C++ pilots who may be available but that is management's issue not mine.

From our company point of view, I am happy to see it here.

[gulliBell]

I'm CASA and FAA ATPL'd with S76A/C/C+ and I'm available, so I suppose I'd better make the call....

[ivan]

Any of you Jayrow folks know where the new airframe is now? Still down south or has it departed for the NW?

[Aussie Mate]

It arrived on a cargo jet on the weekend and is now being assembled at the Jayrow base in Melbourne.

[OCTANE100]

Hi All,

Sorry to change the subject a little but I wonder how many on the engineers there are licenced on the Arriel 2 engine?

It's quite different to an Arriel 1 and of course FADEC....

Do CASA still give away ARRIEL SERIES licences which include both 1 & 2 ???

They certainly don't where I'm working now.....

The aircraft is a step up, shed loads of power (in comparison) for the pilots and no more torque splits to try to tune out for the engineers!!!:ok:

[havick]

Has anyone got any piccies of these 'new' machines in action?

[I Build 92's]

Stay tuned, latest and greatest IIDS soon to be delivered from the factory! S/N 687 should leave here with the latest software...correcting a few of the bugs around since '05. All interchangeable with the C+ machines too! And then of course the new Thales cockpit to grace the D model.....

[Blackhawk9]

OCTANE100, yep, CASA still have the group licences for the ARRIEL series , i've done a Arriel 2 differances and a RR(Allison) 250 C-40/47 differances course but CASA don't require the courses same with the CT7 Series the old -2A in the 214ST and the FADEC -8A in the S-92 all covered in the "Series", will be interesting to see if they seperate the "Makila series "when the EC 225's come in with Makila 2's in them.

[Land of LA]

N512WC owned, operated and crewed by Era Helicopters, LLC. We have several in our fleet.

[OCTANE100]

Thanks Blackhawk,
A little suprising the differences course is not mandatory really....
I have been forced to do three Arriel courses so far to cover the variants here, bloody silly really. It should only be a differences course of a few days at most.
Great to see some newer machinery getting into AUS:ok:

[blade root]

Octane 100,

You might find that the engineers are N registered as well

[Jayrow Pilot]

The C++ leaves for YPKA today.

[gulliBell]

What's its routing, is it going to swing through Perth?

[Nigel Osborn]

Why go through Perth? You just turn right at Kalgoorlie.:)

[Heliringer]

Do Jayrow still operate the C++?

[industry insider]

No, they didn't pay the lease and it was confiscated by the owners and leased to a company in Indonesia (Nyaman / Regional Group) for an offshore project for Marathon Oil.

Only Bristow has C++s in Australia now.