Two squadrons of Tornado GR4 ground attack aircraft will be scrapped.

[TheStrawMan]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2604027.ece

The Sunday Times
7th Oct 2007

The RAF is to lose a quarter of its frontline bomber force and two bases in new cuts to be pushed through by the Treasury, according to senior defence sources.
Two squadrons of Tornado GR4 ground attack aircraft will be scrapped, cutting the RAF’s frontline squadrons from eight to six. One helicopter base and one training base will also be closed, with the land sold off to raise cash......

The two Tornado GR4 squadrons to be scrapped are expected to be one each from the aircraft’s bases at RAF Marham in Norfolk and RAF Lossiemouth, Morayshire; 13 Squadron, based at Marham, is at present training over Scotland for a deployment to Afghanistan next year.
There are three Tornado GR4 squadrons at each base. A squadron has 12 aircraft with 15 crews and four aircraft held in reserve. The other two frontline ground attack aircraft squadrons are equipped with the ageing Harrier aircraft.

When the RAF are streched so much what does this government think they are doing. :mad:

[Al R]

Perhaps CAS spoke too soon. Perhaps we aren't at full stretch after all. Just sort of, stretchy.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=294821

I wonder what loony scheme the money will go on, apart from a trans London railway designed to erm, keep Britain at the fore of global influence? Madness. The sooner we get rid of these arseholes in g'ment, the better.

Is it true that soon, CAS will be a secondary duty?

[Jambo Jet]

Closing Linton and moving to Valley. PVR alert!

[VinRouge]

Linton was supposed to be my last tour! You B*stards!:mad:

Seriously though, what did we expect from a LAbour government just as we are about to face a major recession? Extra kit? Not on your nelly...

[The Helpful Stacker]

The two bases to be scrapped have not yet been named but it is believed that one of them is Odiham, Hampshire, home of the RAF’s Chinook fleet. It is seen as being the most vulnerable because its prime position within the extended London commuter belt would make its sale highly profitable.

But I was under the impression that the MoD doesn't own Odiham, the land is leased off a local farmer (at least that was the duty rumour when I worked at Odious).

Also, knowing how awkward the local NIMBY's are is it very likely that planning permission would be granted for building housing on the site, especially considering it took a good few years to get permission to build accommodation for service personnel on the base?

[VinRouge]

The NIMBYS can be as awkward as they like. There is a shortage of housing and gordon is looking for prime government land to develop on. Fact is, the planning office would probably find itself the target of some pretty harsh job/budget cuts if they dared get in its way. I cant remember us wanting ID cards/pay as you drive but they still happened!

[Saintsman]

But I was under the impression that the MoD doesn't own Odiham, the land is leased off a local farmer (at least that was the duty rumour when I worked at Odious).


Isn't that the case with a lot of airfields? They have clauses that the land must be returned to its former condition, just like Greenham Common.

[rafmatt]

could be worse



nah it is worse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
lets get labour out of goverment and replace them with someone who gives a toss about our nation.

cos as it stands we are losing what makes us Great Britain.

[VinRouge]

Coup anyone?:}

[Razor61]

Bout time we did something like that VinRouge...
All the Armed Forces should walk out...
Nah that can't be right, that's what the Government are hoping for by the sounds of it!

[LFFC]

So, we have the full set of options now. Let (internal) battle commence!

Treasury cuts 'will shed 6,000 Army jobs' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/01/narmy101.xml)

Labour's secret plans to slash the Navy (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=M4CB5MZNHVVHZQFIQMFCFFOAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/09/30/navy130.xml)

RAF cuts to axe quarter of key bombers (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2604027.ece)

I still find it hard to believe that any government could let this sort of internal discord occur whilst fighting 2 wars!

[chevvron]

I just wonder why MOD haven't moved the 'battlefield helicopter' base to Honington; it would surely make sense as it's under-used at the moment (full of rocks I believe) and it's closer to Colchester, potentially the main customer base since Airborne Forces moved there from Aldershot, which was close to Odiham.

[Green Flash]

I can see the bean counters flogging off Odiham but I wonder if any brown jobs are due to return from Germany soonish? Lots of other pongo bases (York/Strensall/Dishforth/Ripon/Catterick etc etc) in N Yorks allready. At least it keeps the runway in MOD hands. Then again, with less and less aircraft ..... :sad:

[XL319]

No wonder Brown isn't calling an election...running scared:}

[AHQHI656SQN]

A sure indicator that an RAF airfield is going to close! :ugh:

[Green Flash]

New Runway at Linton

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A sure indicator that an RAF airfield is going to close!

That's Scampton safe, then!

[glad rag]

The government’s deal to sell 75 Typhoon aircraft to Saudi Arabia and the decision to use the new Typhoon aircraft in Afghanistan mean that some Tornado F3 fighters will have to stay in service for another eight years.
The F3 was due to be scrapped next year and replaced by the Typhoon – formerly known as the Eurofighter. But the controversial al-Salam deal with Riyadh will mean that there are insufficient aircraft to cover Britain’s air defences. Consequently, the F3 will stay in service till 2015.


Ha, life in the old dog yet!!

[cornish-stormrider]

Massed PVR's heading towards the admin shed!!!

All in who want out, my advice is to go now

[VinRouge]

That decision has already been made! Only 5 years to my option! Hey hum!

[pimpernel]

Can anyone tell me why when the MOD is threatened with a reduction in money it always seems to cut front line assets, ships, aircraft, troops etc. yet seems to still keep hold of all the other functions and the nice second line jobs that go with it for more senior officers.

I think we passed the mark where there were more Admirals than ships , more Air Officers than aircraft and more Generals than Divisions, a long time ago. But why do we still keep all of these jobs.

I appreciate it is easy to cut an airfield, or a squadron and more difficult to cut Group Captains and Colonels and then show how much money is saved, but why are there still so many gathered around the trough when the front line assets they are supposed to support are dwindling by the day?

[chevvron]

Green Flash - have you seen what pongos can do to runways? Look at Catterick for instance; Abingdon where they put a fence around INSIDE ie airfield side of the peri-track!

[Al R]

This first part is so true.

Jon Nichol said; “The military are their worst enemies. Their can-do attitude means they will always strive to do the job regardless of the resources the politicians give them. This is a disaster in the making, it really is.”

[nigegilb]

Correct about the Js, now numbering 24 in total. Does CAS realise he lost one earlier this year? The capital replacement money for XV179 was spent on the extra C17 CAS was crowing about. I now understand that Lyneham will remain open, but not in its current guise. So sad to see Linton close.

Hard to square up the "maintaining critical mass," spoken about by CAS. The critical mass, to which he refers, more likely concerns the mass rush for the door marked exit-and led by senior officers, 3 Stn Cdrs, various Sqn Bosses, and now reaching into Air Rank.

And yes, it happened on your watch CAS. I am not sure he will ever understand the crisis being suffered in the RAF, nor his hand in it.

[craigJ]

'lets get labour out of goverment and replace them with someone who gives a toss about our nation'

Any suggestions?:E ... As someone who has only recently reached voting age I'd be interested to hear which party people feel would give the armed forces a good deal?

[Al R]

This is where Cameron needs to put some meat on the bone. He was Labouresque in his prose abou the Covenant, but there was no detail about what he'd do.

[Melchett01]

It can't be too long before repeated cuts lead to repeated body bags turning up at Brize. Not that that scenario will make much difference where this govt is concerned - it is entirely devoid of a conscience or thought for anyone other than itself and the minority of the electorate who keep voting it back into power.

Why on earth do we put up with it??? There must be something that can be done to stop these clowns playing fast and loose with the nation's defence and peoples' lives. Auntie Liz ...... care to have a word in Gordon's ear next time he pops round to Buck House?

If this were 1942 and not 2007, I can't think of any single person or organisation who would be a more fitting candidate to receive the Iron Cross than the Noo Labour. They have done more damage to the Armed Forces, it's morale and its capability to fight sustained campaigns than the Germans ever managed to do. All those who think we're fighting a war on 2 fronts - Iraq and Afghanistan - think again. A third front has opened up - the Treasury, but this time we're getting routed.:(

[Ann Oyd]

Could it be an excuse to cut back because the GR4 mates are using their feet at every possible exit option and walking so there are not enough of them left to fill the available seats?

[XV277]

The government’s deal to sell 75 Typhoon aircraft to Saudi Arabia and the decision to use the new Typhoon aircraft in Afghanistan mean that some Tornado F3 fighters will have to stay in service for another eight years.
The F3 was due to be scrapped next year and replaced by the Typhoon – formerly known as the Eurofighter. But the controversial al-Salam deal with Riyadh will mean that there are insufficient aircraft to cover Britain’s air defences. Consequently, the F3 will stay in service till 2015.



Neatly solves (from a political point of view) the Typhoon Tranche Three problem. Politicos can sign up to T3 as replacements for those aircraft bound for Saudi, whilst the pooor old RAF gets less than intended.

[ZH875]

That's Scampton safe, then!

Move the Sparrows to Leeming, Keep the airfield at LOO, let the Sparrows do their display practice over the airfield.

Sell off the domestic side of LOO, and close Scampton, must save oodles of pennies, and cost lots of pounds.

Still, someone will get an OBE or Knighthood out of it.

Light switch not needed, as we wont have any money to pay the bills.

[VinRouge]

Why do we not just spend the cash and end up with a mssive overspend like every other public sector seems to do... NHS springs to mind. Oh, and while we are at it, why not cut benefits in half instead of allowing those lazy sods in society to get away with it whilst we have people dying in the armed forces as a result of crap kit...

[soddim]

So, shareholders in Northern Rock are bailed out by taxpayers money (only a loan, of course, but no security from a bank in danger of collapse) but they cannot come up with the real cost of supporting their military involvement in other peoples conflicts.

This is called government?

[Tim McLelland]

Most of this news has been expected for a long time of course. The Tornado GR4 cut-backs are of course a political "paper" exercise as the aircraft will just be absorbed into the two Wings, so it's a meaningless move.
Linton is bound to close now that MoD has thrown some money at it - that's standard practise. My hunch is that the closure will be delayed though until a Tucano replacement contract is fixed, so that the move to Valley isn't necessary. They'll probably just start afresh at Valley with a civilian contract, as seems likely with the Sea Kings which were supposedly moving from St.Mawgan.

As for Scampton, I can't see how the airfield has any long term future. Most of the domestic site is sold-off and the airfield effectively exists only for the Red Arrows. As has been rumoured many times, it seems likely that the RAFAT will eventually move to Leeming and possibly use the Scampton airspace for practice displays, if the site is retained, although you have to wonder whether there's any value in retaining any MoD interest in the site, unless it would be too expensive to return it to its former status prior to sale.
Helicopters? Well anyone could see how Odiham is a perfect site for closure because of its location. It wouldn't be much of a surprise if Benson closed too, and the whole helicopter fleet moved to Lyneham as rumoured. It makes good sense (in a bizarre, MoD-esque kind of way).

It's a sad business but there's no news here which comes as any surprise. I think the key things to watch for are the future tanker, transport and SH policies, and the way in which the Harrier fleet soldiers on, and of course, the F-35-versus-Typhoon saga. It'll be fascinating to see whether the F-35 survives, or if the British purchase is abandoned, followed by political bleatings about how we never really needed the Harrier or the F-35 in the first place, blah, blah...

Oh well, the gloom continues. St.Mawgan goes next year, then probably Scampton, Odiham and Linton, then maybe Benson too. Wonder what will be next? Wittering (if they ever find a cost-effective way of getting out)? Cottesmore too I should think. Kinloss too (if they are spending money on widening the taxiways it must be a candidate for closure!)? How about Shawbury? You have to wonder how long it'll be before someobody suggest a merger/relocation to Middle Wallop. I suppose the spiral of closures will continue until the RAF's flying bases ultimately comprise of Valley, Brize, Coningsby, Waddington, Marham, Lyneham (or Benson), Lossiemouth and Leuchars.
It's a lost cause. By the time the RAF reaches it's 100th anniversary there will be no Air Force left to speak of. Never mind - we can go Dutch, Belgian or German... do nothing, don't get involved, and concentrate on financing some fancy paint schemes for the aircraft that are left!:)

[Melchett01]

Helicopters? Well anyone could see how Odiham is a perfect site for closure because of its location. It wouldn't be much of a surprise if Benson closed too, and the whole helicopter fleet moved to Lyneham as rumoured. It makes good sense (in a bizarre, MoD-esque kind of way).


That is about the gist of the cunning plan - make an SH superbase at Lyneham, stick all the AT into Brize, prob sell of ODI and bring the AAC into Benson.

Just a shame that the plan is starting to unravel now that JHC have seen the state of Lyneham and exactly how much it will cost to bring it up to scratch to house all the SH fleets. And you know what JHC are like when it comes to spending money - I think they've been taking lessons from Gordon an Prudence!

And then of course, sticking all the AT at Brize. That won't be an issue will it. The Army moan and complain when one flight to / from theatre is delayed; what do you think will happen when the entire airfield goes u/s in an asymmetric attack and no flights are coming or going? Or maybe pulling everyone back into Basrah is the trial run for all 'Project All Eggs In One Basket'.

[r supwoods]

F3 OSD was 2009 now expected to be 2011/2

[Biggus]

We can fill hundreds of pages on this thread, but it won't make any difference to the end result........

I fully admit that I have no expertise in the helo field, but surely between Culdrose, Yeovilton, Benson, Odiham and Middle Wallop there is some scope for consolidation/savings?

[Tourist]

Not a bite biggus, but are you aware how much is crammed into helicopter bases compared to fast jet bases?

I cannot speak for the RAF bases with any authority, but at Culdrose and Yeovilton there are a huge number of front line and second line sqns plus all the bits and pieces involved in supporting the entire FAA. Consider the consolidation already done in the case of rotary.

[vecvechookattack]

Tourist is correct. Culdrose operates 11 squadrons comprising of Circa 60 aircraft whilst Yeovilton operates 8 Squadrons with over 100 aircraft.

I would agree that Odiham had to go - far too big and costly to keep a massive airbase on prime land to operate 30 or so aircraft. The worst thing the crabs ever did was to get rid of St Mawgan - a fab little airfield with a massive runway all right next door to the best run ashore in the UK.....madness.

[Biggus]

Tourist - not a problem, I said I have no experience of the helo world.

The last time I was at Yeovilton was as a teenager, visiting the FAA Museum (which I seem to remember thinking was pretty awesome). I just thought that it is a big airfield, and with departure of Harriers, etc, there might be some room for other assets.

I asked a question ref consolidation of bases, because I don't know the answer, and if people say there is no scope for such moves then I am ready to believe them......!!

[Seaking93]

The way things are going the Fleet Air Arm Museum with its approx 100 aircraft will be bigger than the FAA itself

[HaveQuick2]

This could still be a case of Noo-Labour spin.

You know, release some worst case scenario rumours, then, when the not-quite-so-deep cuts are actually announced it doesn't look nearly as bad as had been expected.

Here's hoping.

[Never Alert]

As for Scampton, I can't see how the airfield has any long term future. Most of the domestic site is sold-off and the airfield effectively exists only for the Red Arrows. As has been rumoured many times, it seems likely that the RAFAT will eventually move to Leeming and possibly use the Scampton airspace for practice displays, if the site is retained, although you have to wonder whether there's any value in retaining any MoD interest in the site, unless it would be too expensive to return it to its former status prior to sale.

RAFAT could not operate out of Leeming and use Scampton's airspace whilst maintaining the training tempo required for a PDA late spring.

The CRC could be moved however, where to? You're looking at moving a fairly large infrastructure that is working perfectly well where it is.

The domestic site has indeed been partly sold off however, there are ample quarters for the unit's needs.

I can see Leeming closing with the remaining F3s being up at Leuchars. 100 Sqn could easily operate out of Scampton, being close to the Typhoons who they do much of their work for.

Time will tell however, here at Scampton, most people seem confident about the unit's future.

[Monkey Madness]

But I was under the impression that the MoD doesn't own Odiham, the land is leased off a local farmer (at least that was the duty rumour when I worked at Odious).

You are indeed correct. RAF Odiham is leased land, thus the MoD cannot sell it. If they did pull out they will have to return it back to it's origional form (farmland) before handing it back to the owner. I am also of the understanding that the owner also owns a load of other fields in the area.... there would be no sense in kicking the MoD out - it's safe source of income - when other fields could be sold off for development. The fact they have not say's a lot.

[Compressorstall]

Cuts again? It's becoming one of the New Labour certainties - it might be revenge from all those nerds selling Socialist Worker that I used to abuse at University who always got the OTC and UAS kicked out of Freshers' Fair.

Leaks are becoming part of life, but there are 2 sides to this - 1) it informs us all even though it might not come to fruition, but 2) it is massively destabilising since there are 40 odd thousand in the RAF fretting about yet more instability, not to mention the threat of 6000 troops cut from the Army and 5 boats from the RN...

I know Mr Brown goes on about 'Prudence' but she doesn't sound like a very exciting girl and I presume that as he likes playing on the World Stage he would still like someone to join the military. If you look at the US they are fretting about money, but they're still spening it like water as they at least appreciate their military.

Some time ago I got to host some MPs, the Cons chap was pleasant and appreciated what I did for a living, the Lib Dem wore a bad suit and the Labourites were smug and took the line that I was too thick to do any job and couldn't be as great as them.

My meandering point is that we are committed to a war which is not some 100-hr affair and yet all we see is our ability to wage war being constantly eroded. It doesn't help when people talk about leaving here as we joined to make a difference all through training we have been ignoring the quitters. If it's not right, stop complaining and start talking about what we need so we can arm our senior officers with the information they need.

[Guzlin Adnams]

Although not in the services I would like to add my two peneth....
Take all Nooo Labourites, Bean-Counters, etc etc, give them an SA80 apiece, take them to a hot and dusty place where you can die in many different ways, quickly or slowly, tell them that there will be no air support, no supplies from the SH fleet or from Brize as the runway's black....and watch them squeal. New pairs of pants Sirs.
Pity you can't just walk out and let the rseh0les.....er politicians splutter their way out of it. Gawd I hate em!

[ajl146]

This all seems a bit harsh for accidentally dropping a practice bomb:uhoh:

[Tim McLelland]

NeverAlert - regarding Scampton, I'm basing my comments on direct conversations with personnel at both Leeming and Scampton. Everyone I spoke to seemed to think that regardless of all the rumours to the contrary, there was no practical reason why RAFAT couldn't be based at Leeming and flying be done either there or overhead Scampton. So if that is the case, there's no plausible reason for hanging-on to Scampton, unless it proves to be too expensive to sell off the land. Likewise, all the conversations I've had suggest that 100 Sqn's Hawks will stay at Leeming until their OSD in six years or so. As for CRC, well of course you could move that pretty-much anywhere if necessary, but who knows, we'll have to wait and see.

I don't think there's any possibility of Odiham being retained in the long term, and most people are agreed on this. It's a big chunk of land in a perfect development area, housing just a small number of helicopters. Benson is in a slightly less sought-after location but when Lyneham is in search of a future (or more to the point, the local ecomony which will collapse without the base) then you can see the attractiveness of relocating JHC to Wiltshire and disposing of both Odiham and Benson, sooner or later.

As for poor ol' St.Mawgan, I quite agree that abandoning the base is complete folly, as I've said many times before. If you look into the whole story, you will read that the whole thing was a catalogue of mistakes and bluff-calling between the local and county councils and the MoD. St.Mawgan emerged as the most attracive base for the F-35 fleet (if we ever get them) but the local politicians kept on whining and bitching until the MoD simply lost interest. Clearly, the council folks thought that if they complained enough, the MoD would keep the airfield (minus any nuisance from jets) and effectively pay for the civil airport operations. No great surprise then that the MoD just walked away. It's a complete farce - a huge airfield (two joined together in fact), a USN facility, countless hardstandings, a massive runway, a huge servicing hangar and a strategic location. All thrown away because of petty politics. Shame that Culdrose's helicopters can't be moved over to SM to a far superior airfield, but then, Helston's politicians wouldn't be too impressed with that idea!

[BluntM8]

Fair enough, the Sparrows could move to Leeming, but what about the proximity of Leeming to Durham Tees Valley? I would have thought that having regular formation aerobatics close to the approach lanes of a civilian airport might cause a few raised eyebrows, even if there is demonstrably no risk!

For my money, I would close Leeming - 100 Sqn could operate from either Scampton or Linton - in both cases there should be sufficient spare infrastructure, and move XXV Sqn up to Leuchars and centralise the Tornado F3 there. The various lodger units etc would need re-homing, of course but there ought to be space available at other Stations for them.

Blunty

[Al R]

As an aside (if Benson was to close), I believe the new Barrack Blocks there, and the Sim were built under some 25 year PFI. I wonder how much the MoD has to pay? Whats the bet it'll be stinging?

I assume the Sim will move.

[L J R]

So Boscombe Down is safe then...phew - I was a little nervous for a while.

[tucumseh]

What is being discussed is loosely termed “savings”. Putting aside whether or not you agree with them, the money to be saved has, until now, been a properly formulated requirement and a justifiable spend based on MoD/Government policy. If that policy changes, and they no longer have the requirement, there is a “saving” to be had.

What is NEVER discussed, but which I refer to often, is expenditure (both committed and uncommitted) against “requirements” which have NOT been properly formulated or otherwise justified. This is maladministration. In many cases, where the waste is deliberate and/or someone avoids an obligation, it is fraud. THIS is the area which should always be addressed first, before chopping hitherto useful capability.

The mandated (by PUS, on behalf of SoS and hence Government) method of preventing such avoidable waste is a process called “Requirement Scrutiny” – a term which is self explanatory.

Why, then, have the last four Ministers of State for the Armed Forces, upheld the ruling (by 2* and 4* in PE/DPA, and 2* in RAF) that applying these mandated rules, and the identification and avoidance of waste, is a disciplinary offence? They are quite open about this, have confirmed it in writing to my MP and released it under FOI.

You may not understand or have applied the process, but consider this. My batting average for avoiding waste (yet still retaining or improving capability) runs to many £Ms per year, for the last 20 years. Last year, it exceeded £120M, yet I’m just a pleb. There are 6000 like me in Abbey Wood alone which, logically, suggests there is waste I don’t know of. But, I have it in writing from the last Min(AF) that I am the ONLY one who thinks this way, therefore I am wrong.

On a lighter note, I still don’t agree with the Gp Capt who approved expenditure on the Hercules Active Dipping Sonar. I applied Requirement Scrutiny. The first, mandated, question is “Why is it needed?” It failed. He sought disciplinary action. Just a little example of the practical savings to be made by ignoring 4* and Min(AF), doing what PUS requires, all the while maintaining capability. (If the C130 has an ADS, I profusely apologise and withdraw).

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tim M,

There is another fairly important reason why the Reds will NOT go to Leeming - its called the A1! It is well known that the North Yorks police have made several comments about the potentially serious risk of accidents being caused by drivers 'goose-necking' to watch them. They will, without question, veto any possible move to Leeming. The A1 is already a pretty dangerous road, and they are totally against anything which will add to that.

As Never Alert states, far better (and safer) to move 'the ton' down to Scampton.

The other problem is of course the proximity of Durham/Teeside airport, I just can't see the CAA being too happy about the move either, and they have a bit more power than the military I would suggest.

I'm not sure who you have spoken to at scampton, but as someone who works here, I can honestly assure you that not one person I know or have spoken to thinks the same as you! And as for the Reds being based at Leeming and then coming down to 313, 6 - 8 times a day to practice?? Do you even remotely think for one second that that is an option?? Not a chance!

The CRC is up and running and is fine. Quite a few quaters have been sold off, but there are still many available and currently empty.

And lastly, there is thiks small bunch of people called English Heritage, who have spent hours and hours here cataloguing every building, installation and goodness knows what else. They too will have a little say about the future of Scampton, in that it has a preservation order type thing on everything!!

So, all in all, I'm quietly confident that Scampton will stay for many years to come.

[Al R]

:D English Heritage.

[Never Alert]

Tim,

I'm at Scampton.

The idea of the Reds bimbling around the Vale of York makes me shiver! It's busy enough already without RAFAT adding to the carnage. The A1 issue is a very good point too.

There is also the real issue of the Reds not being able to fly as many slots as they currently do should they have to fly LI-SC for every trip. It's a none starter that I know the Reds are against.

[South Bound]

So then, quick check of understanding (if rumour is to be believed).

MoD will close Odiham and make a huge wedge (apart from it does not own it so can't make any money, in fact will cost money to return to original state), while army Units returning from Germany will take Benson (and they are welcome to it).

JHC-owned SH (Odi, Ben and CHF) will relocate to Lyn, making huge efficiencies to save MoD money (well apart from the 500 quarters they will have to build ((I am sure they will be cheap and getting land/planning will be straightforward enough)), once they have built the extra 200 quarters at Brize for everyone relocating from Lyn, easy peasey).

Fast-Jet training will move to Valley, which is a lovely part of the country that will attract servicemen to serve there (can't think of anything sarcastic about this one, just :ugh:)

Genuinely not surprised, but disappointed I am not...

[BluntM8]

Out of interest, what is the comparative cost of maintaining bases such as Woodvale, Church Fenton, Colerne etc against that of maintaining an 'operational' station? If there is cost to be trimmed, should we not be looking at these areas first?

I think it is all fairly neatly summed up by a comment that was made to me some time ago by (if memory serves) ACAS - if the lords and ministers could, they'd have the entire air force operating from one runway in Lincolnshire! :{

[Mr Blake]

Is it me or aren't we just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic before the inevitable happens, and the great 100 year experiment finally draws to a close? We are apparently stretched to breaking point, yet are now considering more cuts, and more closures. All of this despite war on 2 fronts, a committment to keep the Argies at bay, and the Ruskies indulging in a little sabre rattling. How far are we from critical mass before someone pulls the plug, or will we simply implode under the strain?:ugh:

[nigegilb]

Maybe the roundabout at Junction 16 of M4 should be re-named the Loader Roundabout. A place where RAF Personnel living near Lyneham but flying Hercs from Brize Norton pass through in the morning heading North, whilst personnel settled near Benson head the opposite direction to Lyneham from the M4 East. Of course, personnel living near Odiham have a free run through Wilts over the Plains in the morning, only snarl up being the pleasant market town of Devizes and the incomplete bypass of Calne. Of course, the problem for the Lyneham Brize commuters being the main gate choke point of Brize and the severely limited parking. I suggest a park and ride scheme between all four stations. Better still, maybe the RAF could resurrect a train line between the stations, so if you don't like it you can always get off at the next stop and find a sympathetic welcome.

There is no strategy here, this is musical chairs to the tune of a discredited Govt allowed free range to wreak havoc against weak military leaders.

[Green Flash]

Green Flash - have you seen what pongos can do to runways?

Oh good grief yes! (Gutersloh - weeps quietly). Yes I know ETUO still has a working runway, but that's my point. At least the strip will still be there. Try getting planing persmission to build a runway these days!

[South Bound]

Nige, I kinda remember they were looking at bus-ing the Lyneham types to Brize on a daily basis until someone pointed out the SH boys and girls might need the Lynham quarters. Just couldn't make it up could you?

[nigegilb]

SB what is happening with the Sims at Lyneham? Could we have crews travelling to Brize to fly the Herc, but travelling back to Lyneham for the Sims, and then living either in MQs at Lyneham or Brize, or remaining with the family home for the benefit of wife/kids?

I have never heard of anything so badly thought through. Didn't we sell a load of quarters off at Lyneham?

This is so bad it is actually funny. I am sure something siilar will arise out of the other planned closures. All this turbulence will simply lead people to throw the towel in. What use all the fancy aircraft then? When will the likes of Torpy, Stirrup and Loader realise their greatest asset above all is the men and women of the RAF? And just as importantly, their families....

[snapper41]

[QUOTE=chevvron;3622925]have you seen what pongos can do to runways? /QUOTE]

Brawdy - they've ruined that!

[Mr Blake]

Sorry I forgot to add to our current committments with some possible pending in the not too disatant future. Our political masters continue to make promises they cannot possibly keep?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/07/wiran207.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

[Al R]

Yessirr! We can do that.

Surely, someone is having a laugh?

[Tim McLelland]

As I think I mentioned previously, I've heard all the arguments against moving the RAFAT to Leeming before and I don't have any reason to disagree with them. All I know is that whenever I've brought-up the subject (and I obviously can't say with whom), then the answer has been that despite all this, there's no real practical reason why the move can't be made, and that it may well happen. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just basing my hunches on what people have said! As for 25 Sqn, the last I heard was that they would be out of business early next year, although the recent stay of execution for the F3 fleet might have some influence on that - have to wait and see I guess.

[BEagle]

So - will we see any of Their Airships resigining in protest?

And I so wish that someone will 'do a Pollock' in a GR4 along the Thames past the mad MoD box and the House of Buffoons!

Not that they should of course - that'd be very naughty...:hmm:

[whowhenwhy]

Why do people keep saying Odious is going to close? It will cost too much money to close and return to the landowner. Lyneham is too far gone (apparently) and it's seems to be getting to the stage that the re-basing is all just going to cost too much money. Close the Yorkshire out stations. Scampton's probably going to have to go because of Robin Hood airport, but where could we put the Reds for commonality of type.......? And how about closing all the places on care and maintenance - or are they all on the same deal as Odious (land returned to previous use)? One thing that Loader said isn't too much of a bad idea - an airfield's got 4 corners, put a sqn in each. The problem is that you have to finance it Sir! :ok:

[VinRouge]

Its a good idea until your main AT or main Rote hub goes black or gets clagged out; then its a ery bad idea, and not one the airships hae given much thought to in my mind.

[Farfrompuken]

Understood LOO was fairly watertight due to the airspace around there, but then again if MFTS has one type for both BFT and AFT, it'd be hard to argue against its closure.
Lye is suffering from a freeze on infrastructure improvements pending info on its future. Who'd want to bet on it being in a very shabby state for JHC?
The cost of renovation would surely hit any savings in operating costs hard.
I also understand that Benson + Odiham need to be vacated for overseas units returning; therefore there would be no savings to be made as the bases wouldn't be handed back anyhow. How about utilising the real estate at places like Upper Heyford, St Mawgan :{, Scampton etc for all these returnees and save everyone a fortune?
No, all we're going to do is spend £millions on shuffling all eggs into one basket for no saving and to save face of the 'workstrand' that came up with this ill-conceived idea. (we haven't touched on SFA, SLAM and MT costs between LYE and BZN).....
:ugh:

[nigegilb]

I think it might be time for some parliamentary scrutiny.......

[BEagle]

5th April 2008 will be the 40th anniversary of the time when Al flew his Hunter under Tower Bridge and down the Thames in protest against the feeble way their airships were planning to celebrate the RAF's 50th birthday.....

It could also be about the date when Grumpy Gordon holds his election.

And, coincidentally, the 100th anniversary of the famous "We want eight and we won't wait!" event when the public protested at weak government defence spending! What was true for dreadnoughts then is equally true for Tornado GR4 squadrons today!!

[Grey'npointy]

Fellas

The article that kicked this off had me worried until I got to the bit about Linton closing, then the bit about the dear old F3 lasting till 2015. Both of these comments are wildly speculative. Here's why:

To close Linton one must also close Church Fenton, as Linton's where all the accommodation for the newly-established EFTS, plus ATC and fire support services comes from each day. This means another major move for a large organisation & RAF Lincolnshire airspace is full. MFTS will feature a 2 aircraft type solution because of BAe's successfull lobbying to Prescott to make us buy the Hawk 128. It's so expensive (over £20 million each) we can only afford a few of them and must, therefore, reserve its use for TWU-type training. The Tincan replacement will do the job of Linton & 208 Sqn, so Macchi 311 or PC-21 hot favs here. Whatever, these plus 128s will not work together at one base plus one RLG. It will simply be too busy and the different cct speeds/dimensions will cause chaos. Llanbedr is being sold as we debate. There is insufficient airspace.

If I were to offer a base rationalisation solution, it would be to bin Valley (sure this would be popular) and move AFT/TWU to Leuchars, with Typhoons going into Leeming instead. The cct stages of trg could be done on mini day-dets to Kinloss. Loads of airspace (low level and the 613s) for lots of trg aeroplanes to buzz about in. Reds move to Waddo but retain Scampers airspace to practise. Scampers closes and CRC moves to Boulmer.

The F3 is creaking and the gingers are struggling manfully to maintain it until 2010, let alone much longer. 2015 is, frankly, unachieveable. XXV is indeed scheduled to go in Mar 08, leaving a morphed set of units at Leuchars.

For me, the biggest scandal of all is that while we are being subjected to petty penny pinching and lean lectures from the high-priced help, the same high-priced help has allowed MoD main building to be refurbished at a cost of....wait for it, and this is no spoof.....£3 billion. This is nothing short of a criminal act and where we should be directing our anger.

In sum, I await the formal announcements on basing and force sizes with the same trepidation as anyone but please, folks, let's not give this one piece of rampantly speculative Sunday journalism more credit than it deserves.

[Beeayeate]

An old saying comes to mind . . . re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Seems to cover the current situation.


.

[hibbs007]

“Bin Valley”, can’t see it myself. Remember most of Valley’s workforce are in a civilian blue uniform, for the Hawks, soon to be SKIOS and 95% of the unit as a whole. To close Valley would ruin Anglesey’s already depressed economy and really upset the North Welsh. Imagine all those civi voters who would be out of work in a high unemployment area that is currently receiving EU money to try and create more jobs. It would be political suicide for the area, and lets face it politics is all that matters, not what’s best for the country or RAF.

[Never Alert]

Scampers closes and CRC moves to Boulmer.

We'd have to move the CRC elsewhere matey as the whole point is having 2 CRCs at different units.

Can't see Linton closing after your comments though, good info.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

As Jointery is the cornerstone of the Services (well, 2 of them at least), doesn't this reduction in Strike capacity align with that? Now that the Typhoon is working up for CAS, isn't that all the mobile artillery the Army needs? Who worries about deep strike/interdiction and taking the fight home to the opposition any more?

Regarding Valley, does it still have the best WX profile of all the current home aerodromes?

[BluntM8]

I wouldn't be suprised if the plans involve centralising Hawk users in one place - so maybe 100 Sqn and Reds to Valley?

[South Bound]

Nige

not sure what is happening with sims at the moment, been a while since I have heard anything from CATARA at all. IIRC, original plan had been to move the lot (that was when Lyneham was going to close). Quarters is the real killer here - as you suggest, a nice little patch at Compton Bassett went as did some in the village (small, needed some love, but better than nothing). This is the same across defence though, there have been so many efficiencies that there is little spare capacity anywhere and amalgamating units invariably leads to more people at the Unit that survives. Latest feedback from AFPRB suggests that housing is a key (de)motivating factor and we need to get it right, and now.

Pick your units and stick to this decision for the next 15 years, man them appropriately and ensure there are enough houses (in good condition,with modern fittings like showers!) for those that want them and better help for those who want to buy their own (realistic LSAP, legal fees, relocation packages etc). Lot fewer unhappy people.

[Affirmatron]

Not entirely sure why the F3 (or any platform for that matter) couldn't continue indefinitely so long as there was suitable funding. Most of the jets have good fatigues and it's now a capable platform, and certainly up to the current threat.

Grey n pointy, where did that £3bn figure come from? I've not seen that one yet.

[Green Flash]

GR4 to Afghanistan?

Pardon my ignorance, but why not? Not starting a fight, just interested! If there's any performance/capability/opsec considerations, I understand.

[Epimetheus]

Would it be too much to have "Plans" at Air Command become "Plans & Implementation", so then there could be some ownership and accountability on the next deckchair shuffle?

... oink ... flap ... oink ... flap

It must be great having all those ideas and passing them on to others to fix.

[RICKIT]

Will they be taking (C)RAPTOR with them?:E

[insty66]

With that username you should know!:rolleyes:

[Rigchick]

13 Squadron, based at Marham, is at present training over Scotland for a deployment to Afghanistan next year.


Nice to see people getting there facts straight!:ugh:

There are three Tornado GR4 squadrons at each base.

And has someone got rid of a Sqn without letting us know, last I knew there were 4 at Marham:confused:

[Jobza Guddun]

"And has someone got rid of a Sqn without letting us know, last I knew there were 4 at Marham"

To be fair, one if them IS 31....:E

[YorkshireTown]

Reality check...

Scampton will probably go, simply because the Reds as we know them have only a few years left. Whoever said about the 'actual' cuts not seeming as severe as the proposed cuts hit the nail on the head. The question will be asked 'why are we ditching our much needed war machines, yet keeping an expensive 11 jet aerobatic team?', and thus the Reds will be sliced. Doesn't mean those GR4 cuts won't happen too, though.

As for the English Heritage intervention at Scampton, well that seals Scampton's fate rather than saves it's neck. Work of any nature, essential or otherwise', will be increasingly bundled up in red tape and costs will go through the roof.

And I reckon you're all going to be very surprised by what actually happens at Leeming. Nobody's even got close with the various theories on here yet! And yes, 25 Sqn will still be gone next year and they will probably not be one of the squadrons rumoured to be spared under the hastily drawn-up (i.e. still being drawn up) F3 service extension proposals.

And, by the way, Gordon's retreat from Iraq is as much about legitimising these cuts as it is about winning back votes. Soon we'll only be in one war, see, alongside 32 other contributors. 12 Typhoons and a few Chinooks should be enough :ok:

As for the Reds even being in existence for the 2012 Olympics... dream on...

[nigegilb]

Does anyone have any info on a study done by a troubleshooter brought in to look at the closure of Lye and the transfer of the Herc to Brize? I understand the result of the study was that it was not feasible, however, the MoD went ahead with the plan anyway.

I also understand that the J sim is definitely moving to Brize, just a few short years after it was built at Lye. The K sim and fleet will remain until OSD.

Cheers,

Nige

[South Bound]

Nige

not sure what trouble shooter you are referring to, but IIRC, I understand that initial assumptions/costings were reviewed independently after the very initial finger in the air. Figure was 5x the initial amount. Not seen anywhere that it is not feasible, just expensive!

SB

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Such cynicism all round! Can't you see it's all part of a well-thought-out plan?

Why do we need so many GR4s when soon there will be an airworthy Vulcan available for hire on a 'no win, no fee' basis (let's face it, the valiant guys and girls at TVOC could do with the cash!). Perfect for the occasional airstrike on Iran/Iraq/(enter Middle Eastern country), without all the nasty expensive headaches like Spares and Basing and Married Quarters and...

[bombedup6]

I, for one, won't cry if the Reds do go. I take the American view that the public needs to see front-line a/c doing formation aerobatic stunts, not little trainers. Front line aircraft are what defence of the nation and its interests are all about. That's what fires little boys and girls to want to be be fighter pilots, and what reassures the taxpayers they're getting the best defence in the world. Otherwise, civvy-flown Zlins are much better for aerobatics.

I understand that the current crop of F-16s and 18s can't pull the same tight turns as the Reds' Hawks and are thus not quite as visible - or even as dramatic - to the watching crowd. But there is a front-line aircraft that could do the turns and be even more dramatic - the Typhoon.

Har, har, too expensive, do I hear? Well, not so expensive if there are fewer of them as the New Red Arrows, and come not from a special unit but from the Typhoon OCU and reserves.

Any bets that won't happen by 2012?

[biggles111]

I would have thought that a new runway and plans for a new control tower would be enough to put the kiss of death on Linton. Look what happened to Finningley £1.3m on a new air nav school and hey presto, closed 6 months later. If they had resurfaced the runway correctly the first time around at Linton, ad moved the displaced threshold at the same time as resurfacing, surely they would have saved a bit of cash. But then oh silly me that would be the sensible thing to do wouldn't it. Doh:rolleyes:

[MarkD]

there will be an airworthy Vulcan available for hire on a 'no win, no fee' basis

Should apply to the Spams - they do like their private contractors (when did "mercenary" fall out of fashion?)

[mr ripley]

Does anyone have any info on a study done by a troubleshooter brought in to look at the closure of Lye and the transfer of the Herc to Brize? I understand the result of the study was that it was not feasible, however, the MoD went ahead with the plan anyway.

Nige, I don't remember the troubleshooter but I remember talking to person who planned it all.

As far as I can remember, it wasn't that Brize had the better infrastructure as it was as poor as Lyneham's. Lyneham has actually more real estate but the shorter runway with no extending options led to Brize being chosen.

My information is that Chinooks to LYE is very likely.

[South Bound]

My information is that Chinooks to LYE is very likely.

Mr R - less convinced myself. Idea is outstanding on all fronts - gets the SH close to Salisbury Plain, creates efficiencies within support elements (only one OC Admin!) and gets all the SH together so they can stop bitching about why chinook/merlin/puma should live forever! Done properly it is a no-brainer.

Just can't see how this can work practically. They are 500 quarters short and will not get the money to make Lyneham work properly; rather it will be a compromise as it always is with people having to make do in cr*p technical accommodation that does not reflect our new hyper-efficient ways of working.

IMHO we should sack the idea and invest in the Units we have, make them fit for purpose and somewhere the guys and girls working there can be proud of and reflect the changes that have been made to the Service since the 30s/40s when the Units were built...

[brickhistory]

Should apply to the Spams - they do like their private contractors (when did "mercenary" fall out of fashion?)

Err, what's the name of that British private company that seems to hire so many ex-SAS types and offers 'services' around the world?





Not that there's anything wrong with that...............

[The Helpful Stacker]

49 Para? Folks on ARRSE keep touting it as the place for 'ex-SAS' types to go for further service.

;)

[harrogate]

Aegis or ArmorGroup.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I have been on "amateur" aerobatic teams in the past: 205 AFS MiddletonSt George 1953; 208 SQn (MEAF "official" team 1954-57); CFS "Sparrows" 1957. They were all good but I would never claim that they could compare with the Reds for precision and slickness. If anyone seriously thinks that a part-time team drawn from, say, the Typhoon OCU could compete with their professional (ie full-time) international counterparts, they most be smoking pot. And if they think the Treasury will cough up to pay for Typhoons taken out of the front line for display purposes only, they really are delirious. And if anyone thinks HMG will pay the political price of winding up the Reds they are on Planet Zog. Some have clearly not understood the extent to which the Reds have caught the hearts and minds of the great unwashed. The government have.

There will be no more "liberal intervention" operations for a very, very long time. Both of the main parties have hoisted aboard the idiocy of shuffling along behind Bush with their noses up his fundament.

[harrogate]

Much as I'd love to agree with you regarding the political price of winding up the Reds, it doesn't mean buggery tit to the Whitehall bean counters. It really doesn't.

As for saving the GR4s, maybe PFI or even corporate sponsorship is being seen as the way to go, because I really had to rub my eyes when I saw this today...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/harrogate/GR4tesco.jpg
Bizarre.

[Squirrel 41]

FV is quite right - the Reds (and the BBMF) may be cut, but only after the rest of the RAF has long been disposed of.

The painful reality is that as long as the Reds are there to make people go "oooh", the BBMF are there to bring a (well-earned) tear to the eye, and yellow SKs are there to fish the unwise out of the drink / fetch them from a rocky ledge, the truth is that the general public have little or no understanding of what the RAF is doing or what platforms it employs to do whatever it is doing.

It's been said on here before - but there aren't many votes in defence.

S41

[artdes]

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3870/123uw2.jpg

Really bizare isnt it! :E

[Phil_R]

You can take the piss, but notice one thing: nowhere on either of those aircraft (or certainly nowhere obvious) does it say "Royal Air Force".

Phil

[harrogate]

I photoshopped out some roundels and stuff.

I'm very good, so you won't notice where. :)

The piss-taking is squared at the Whitehall morons, by the way.

[Door Slider]

Royal Air Force has recently been added to the doors of Pumas

[VinRouge]

I always thought that the roundel looked too much like a target myself... :}

[Wrathmonk]

And who exactly would undertake the RAF Regts Force Protection role, particularly at the OOA locations? Don't even think the Army as they are more stretched than anyone.:ugh:

[The Helpful Stacker]

In all honesty I don't believe that the Army would want the RAF Regt task.

Whilst it is true that the RAF Regt do a lot more than walk the wire it is still one of their core tasks. How many infantrymen do you know who would be happy being detached to Afghanistan to guard an airbase?

If the Army did take the task I could see them raising a deployable version of MPGS to carry out the task with longer periods of deployment on shorter fixed-term contracts in a similar manner to the US with their auxiliary security staff (such as the ones that used to guard Camp Doha in Kuwait).

[Al R]

How many infantrymen do you know who would be happy being detached to Afghanistan to guard an airbase?


Judging by the PVR rates, quite a few I'd imagine. :ok:

An infanteer doesn't see things in those terms, certainly not after he's been in for more than 5 minutes anyway.. and in company sized groups, our usefullness to battlegroups in strict terms is limited, although Sierra Leone saw the Corps at the forefront of operations as it has been elsewhere. The Regt role is varied and offers far more than you might imagine. I've had far better general conditions of service and had some useful experiences so yes.. I guess they'd have liked my job. ;)

I think I'm right too, in saying that the RAF Regt is the only regular infantry organisation which has constantly been on active service somewhere every year since the end of WW2.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'm sorry but although the points you raise may be true that is not how they would appear to an infantryman, I know as I was one and for a little bit longer than 5 minutes.

Pride in ones regiment is a huge part of being an infantryman (I still have pride in the regiment I was part of that I left 12 years ago) and I don't know of many regiments that would be proud to take on a role which is often seen in the wider British Army and beyond as guarding 'guins for a living.

Yes (as I stated originally) there is a lot more to the RAF Regt than walking the fence line but the oft mentioned remarks about the 'short range desert group' will linger on as off hand comments about the RAF Regt always have and I don't believe many Lt Col's would happily let their battalion step into those shoes. Of course they'd no doubt gladly cherry pick the SFSG tasks which the RAF Regt are an important part of but the less glamorous tasks I'm sure wouldn't be as palatable.

Of course most of this is based on pure ignorance and misconception of the role of the RAF Regt, but in a British Army that in many quarters is still stuck firmly in West Germany facing off the 3rd Shock Army the thought of tootling around in WMiK's at Basrah doesn't have the same appeal as being an armoured infantry battalion racing across some as yet to come Salisbury Plain photostat battlefield.

[PTC REMF]

Whilst it is true that the RAF Regt do a lot more than walk the wire it is still one of their core tasks. How many infantrymen do you know who would be happy being detached to Afghanistan to guard an airbase?

Who do you think guards RAF Bastion?

[downsizer]

Who do you think guards RAF Bastion?

I think you'll find it is Camp Bastion.:ugh:

[PTC REMF]

I think you'll find it is Camp Bastion.
I think you’ll find I was being facetious, and it looked more like an airfield last time I was there. Thankyou

[harrogate]

Calm down, calm down. Jeez.
Look at the lovely aeroplane,..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/harrogate/herccopy.jpg

[Melchett01]

Quote:
I think you'll find it is Camp Bastion.

I think you’ll find I was being facetious, and it looked more like an airfield last time I was there. Thankyou

So is Basrah Air Station. But that little fact hasn't stopped the Army taking command of it.

[Alber Ratman]

Oh, I hope not... I was going on holiday there soon...

[Al R]

Clear finals said:
So in the absence of any words of defence, is the consensus that it is merely the occurence of Herrick and Telic that is prolonging the existence and delaying the disbandment of the RAF Regt?


I suppose if you're suggesting we won't be deploying on ops ever again then, then yes. But in that case, perhaps we should disband the entire ruddy Air Force?

[Melchett01]

So in the absence of any words of defence, is the consensus that it is merely the occurence of Herrick and Telic that is prolonging the existence and delaying the disbandment of the RAF Regt?

As much as I harrumph at getting gassed, as long as you have SH and probably a capability like the Harrier or other field type units, you will need the RAF Regt. In addition to providing base defence in Iraq and Afghanistan, isn't the Regt responsible for providing security for forward deployed / behind the lines FARPs etc ?

[Squirrel 41]

Gents,

Seems to me that the Regt will go to the Army in the near future precisely because the RAF will need to offer up something to protect Typhoon - and which CAS is going to decline a grand bargain of passing the Regt to the Army (called whatever it's called) which will help the Army get back to full(er) manning in return for some positive feedback from the other service chiefs on the importance of Typhoon to "defence". (Never understood this new innovation to describe MoD/Services' input ot anything as "defence"... but what do I know?)

Salve, Regt.

S41

[Al R]

If we had a RAF Managing Director with spine, that arguement would be far easier to rebutt on grounds of logic.